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Poll: How much is enough to never work again?
40,000 a year (1,000,000)
80,000 a year (2,000,000)
120,000 a year (3,000,000)
160,000 a year (4,000,000)
200,000 a year (5,000,000)
240,000 a year (6,000,000)
280,000 a year (7,000,000)
320,000 a year (8,000,000)
more than 8,000,000
I would never stop working at any amount
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Investing How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 05:31 AM)pitt Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 04:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 03:58 AM)pitt Wrote:  OP how much is enough for you?

Probably option 2, 2MM/80,000 a year. I have access to significantly more at this point, and honestly I don't need it at all, even living well. I think the average income, for people who have a job (there is 30% unemployment) in Seville is something like 1200 euros a month. I spend about 4 or 5 times that in a typical month. I've been considering leasing/renting a nice car, that and parking might be 1k a month more. Being a baller is cheap here. At 5 or 6k euro a month for a single guy you are ahead of everyone except famous people and football stars.

The only way I could see myself spending more in Seville is if I started buying Veblen goods in a foolish attempt to impress others.

Maybe if moved back to NYC or another major international city with high living costs.

That is really good money that you are currently making. 30% unemployment rate? Jesus.

Have you driven expensive cars there before? I am wondering how local girls respond to guys who are doing really well financially.

Yeah, southern Spain is in an economic shit storm that is not going away anytime soon.

It's good for me though and keeps prices low.

I've driven nice but not exotic cars.

I'm leaning towards an M5 or a Range Rover.

To answer your other question, they respond really really well.

It pisses off my girlfriend, since I think she can see the writing on the wall, even though I haven't made a decision yet.

I live in a luxury apartment on the best street in the city, and my neighbor (in a 5 apartment building) is an A list famous bullfighter who is considered movie star handsome. People flip out when they find out he is my neighbor and I talk to him. I mean it's not like we are buddies, but I've run into him in the elevator or hallway 3 or 4 times in the past 4 months and we are on a polite speaking basis.

He is actually a nice guy, and I am slowly trying to establish a friendship/social connection. It requires delicacy since he is at the highest level of Spanish society and used to be married to the Duchess of Alba's daughter (she was Spain's richest and most titled aristocratic, I think a low level billionaire).

Anyway, I got side tracked...basically my Spanish girlfriend thinks all of this is going/will go to my head, as it gets really positive attention when people find out some of the details. It's not like I talk about money, and I'm only spending maybe 25% of what I could, yet it is obvious compared to 99% of people here.

But holy shit, it is nothing compared to my male 10 bullfighting neighbor (he is short, but has a perfect 11/10 face). Millions of Spanish women probably masturbate to him on a daily basis. Lucky bastard.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 08:35 AM by VolandoVengoVolandoVoy.)
01-31-2016 08:31 AM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #27
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-30-2016 11:27 AM)Sigma Wrote:  I would never quit working.

I did a mini retirement a few years back when I was making around 300,000 a year but it honestly got boring. I had money but everything got old. Friday night meant nothing since everyday was a Saturday for me. Shopping got dull because at a certain point there really wasn't anything I wanted. Not because I had everything but it just didn't mean much when I could walk into a store and just buy the thing. I couldn't even enjoy doing shit with friends because they had to work, spend time with family, etc.

I'm sure there are guys out there who can be content enjoying a work free life. But me personally, as ironic as it is, I don't have the self discipline to not work. I need somewhere to go and be productive. If left to my own devices I will pretty much live like a vampire; stay up all night and sleep all day.

I've enjoyed fine dining all over the world, from the French Laundry in Yountville to Sukiyabashi Jiro in Tokyo but hands down the best meal I've had was when I was 17 years old, eating a ham and cheese sandwich on a crate after working 11 hours at the fish processing plant.

Maybe one day I'll be able to throw myself into my hobbies and enjoy life that way but right now when I don't work I can't shake the feeling that I'm being lazy.


Maybe what you really miss is being 17 years old?

Just a possibility.

As we get older we romanticize things a lot.

What I'm saying is the special sauce that made that sandwich so delicious is more likely being that age, not the 11 hours in a fish factory.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 11:55 AM by VolandoVengoVolandoVoy.)
01-31-2016 11:34 AM
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Brodiaga Offline
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Post: #28
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:35 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 03:58 AM)pitt Wrote:  OP how much is enough for you?

Probably option 2, 2MM/80,000 a year. I have access to significantly more at this point, and honestly I don't need it at all, even living well. I think the average income, for people who have a job (there is 30% unemployment) in Seville is something like 1200 euros a month. I spend about 4 or 5 times that in a typical month. I've been considering leasing/renting a nice car, that and parking might be 1k a month more. Being a baller is cheap here. At 5 or 6k euro a month for a single guy you are ahead of everyone except famous people and football stars.

The only way I could see myself spending more in Seville is if I started buying Veblen goods in a foolish attempt to impress others.

Maybe if moved back to NYC or another major international city with high living costs.

VVVV,

For those of use who are not yet financially independent but are trying to achieve this, is there any advice you can give either here or perhaps in a separate datasheet/thread?

I know this is kind of a personal question, so no problem if you don't want to share any information at all. However, if you feel that you have something to teach other guys here, be it general attitude or special tips on how to start and run your own business, it would be great to learn from somebody like you.

I, for example, would much rather hear advice on how to achieve financial independence from somebody who has achieved it already than from one of those jokers who write books like "I will teach you to be rich" before they even get rich themselves.
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 12:31 PM by Brodiaga.)
01-31-2016 12:30 PM
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Caravaggio Offline
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Post: #29
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
^^^^^^^^ VVVV, i'd love to hear some advice from you too if you don't mind sharing it
01-31-2016 12:41 PM
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Pareto Offline
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Post: #30
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
I would never stop working.

As people have already pointed out, stuff would get old and your leisure time would be way out of sync with everyone elses.

But with me, I'd also have that extra feeling of wondering why on Earth I should get out of bed? Why get dressed and make breakfast when you earn enough to order it in? Why get out of bed if you're not going to work?

Eventually the laziness would consume me as I lose motivation to do anything productive, and I'd turn into one of the morbidly obese people living in their bed playing video games 24/7.

I've worked for 4 years on minimum wage at a job where mistakes weren't tolerated. Being late was not tolerated (some exceptions) and missing shifts was not tolerated (again, some exceptions). The fact I was on minimum wage made me want to work more to bring in the income. This meant that at times I started at 5:30am after (walking from my house for four miles) and at times not finishing until near enough midnight. Then rinse and repeat, for 5-6 days a week.

It's not nice, but I'd rather work and have the satisfaction of doing something productive than retire too early, get bored quickly and become lazy.
01-31-2016 01:07 PM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #31
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 12:30 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  VVVV,

For those of use who are not yet financially independent but are trying to achieve this, is there any advice you can give either here or perhaps in a separate datasheet/thread?

I know this is kind of a personal question, so no problem if you don't want to share any information at all. However, if you feel that you have something to teach other guys here, be it general attitude or special tips on how to start and run your own business, it would be great to learn from somebody like you.

I, for example, would much rather hear advice on how to achieve financial independence from somebody who has achieved it already than from one of those jokers who write books like "I will teach you to be rich" before they even get rich themselves.

I'm not going to bullshit anyone. I don't have any great advice when it comes to achieving financial independence. I mean, I did well enough and worked professional jobs, but my current situation is a result of family wealth.

I do have some useful advice for maintaining financial independence that is the result of inheritance/legal settlement/lotto or some other sudden windfall.

1. Do NOT think you know more than you do.

2. Do NOT mess around with picking stocks/trading commodities/trading currencies. Just because you have access to a substantial amount of money doesn't make you George Soros.

3. Do NOT invest in a restaurant or some half assed real estate venture or other business. This is a great way to become poor. Chances are you know nothing about this, and even if you did, 90% of new businesses fail.

Leave your money in an index fund, or if it is very substantial, use a reputable private wealth manager in New York. This requires obvious caution in the post-Madoff era.

Live within your means. Don't try and justify your life/existence by pretending to be some sort of "businessman."

/My 2 cents

I'm still charting my course, it's been less than a year. My opinions could change/evolve.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
01-31-2016 01:57 PM
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captain_shane Offline
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Post: #32
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
I like traveling and I like the finer things in life. So, I figure around 365k a year in passive income would be sufficient to do the things I'd like to do.

6,083,000 at 6% returns in Real Estate would achieve this.

I'd like to be able to pretty much pack up at anytime I feel like and go wherever the fuck I want.

Rent a ferrari for a week, cool.
Take a luxury cruise around the world, cool.
Eat out at the best restaurants daily, cool.
Go to vegas for a week and blow 5k, cool.
Travel around europe in 5 star hotels, cool.

Realistically, I won't be spending a grand a day, so the rest of it would go back into investing in more real estate to increase returns in the long run.

I want to be able to set up a legacy for myself and make sure that my future family and generations will never have to worry about money ever in their lives, they will be free to do anything they'd like; painter, musician, physicist, inventor, writer, etc.

From this:
[Image: bestluxuryshipsbighome2.jpg]
to this:
[Image: Best-time-to-visit-Tahiti.jpg]
to this:
[Image: bdb74b38-b73f-409d-a2d9-df5770f6d0f5.1.10]
to this:
[Image: 746839-rom-mcfarland.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 03:59 PM by captain_shane.)
01-31-2016 03:56 PM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #33
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 03:56 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  I like traveling and I like the finer things in life. So, I figure around 365k a year in passive income would be sufficient to do the things I'd like to do.

6,083,000 at 6% returns in Real Estate would achieve this.

I'd like to be able to pretty much pack up at anytime I feel like and go wherever the fuck I want.

Rent a ferrari for a week, cool.
Take a luxury cruise around the world, cool.
Eat out at the best restaurants daily, cool.
Go to vegas for a week and blow 5k, cool.
Travel around europe in 5 star hotels, cool.

Realistically, I won't be spending a grand a day, so the rest of it would go back into investing in more real estate to increase returns in the long run.

I want to be able to set up a legacy for myself and make sure that my future family and generations will never have to worry about money ever in their lives, they will be free to do anything they'd like; painter, musician, physicist, inventor, writer, etc.


How to resolve this? Family life and doing whatever the fuck you want don't seem to mix.

This is actually a real issue I'm starting to grapple with.

Also, how would you achieve your 6% return in real estate? Index funds/bonds/etc seems like more of a sure thing to hit 7% return a year over time (which in turn allows for 4% a year to spend, with the rest going to increase your nest egg to account for inflation and also to cover taxes), less risk, and doesn't require work.

I know someone who lost a very substantial amount of his family's wealth in real estate.

I'm nit picking a bit, I agree with most of your post and like your approach...I like nice things too.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 04:05 PM by VolandoVengoVolandoVoy.)
01-31-2016 04:03 PM
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Post: #34
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:03 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 03:56 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  I like traveling and I like the finer things in life. So, I figure around 365k a year in passive income would be sufficient to do the things I'd like to do.

6,083,000 at 6% returns in Real Estate would achieve this.

I'd like to be able to pretty much pack up at anytime I feel like and go wherever the fuck I want.

Rent a ferrari for a week, cool.
Take a luxury cruise around the world, cool.
Eat out at the best restaurants daily, cool.
Go to vegas for a week and blow 5k, cool.
Travel around europe in 5 star hotels, cool.

Realistically, I won't be spending a grand a day, so the rest of it would go back into investing in more real estate to increase returns in the long run.

I want to be able to set up a legacy for myself and make sure that my future family and generations will never have to worry about money ever in their lives, they will be free to do anything they'd like; painter, musician, physicist, inventor, writer, etc.


How to resolve this? Family life and doing whatever the fuck you want don't seem to mix.

This is actually a real issue I'm starting to grapple with.

Also, how would you achieve your 6% return in real estate? Index funds/bonds/etc seems like more of a sure thing to hit 7% return a year over time (which in turn allows for 4% a year to spend, with the rest going to increase your nest egg to account for inflation and also to cover taxes), less risk, and doesn't require work.

I know someone who lost a very substantial amount of his family's wealth in real estate.

I'm nit picking a bit, I agree with most of your post and like your approach...I like nice things too.

It's not really that hard to achieve 6% returns in real estate. I was actually being pretty conservative. Find distressed houses at low prices and buy them for cash, fix them up and rent them out.

A buddy of mine recently bought a place for 40k, put in 40k fixing it up and rents it out for 1k a month. 12K gross - 40/50% in costs is 6k a year profit. 7.5% returns.

You can do a lot better than that in the midwest. My dad's probably going to pick up a place in the next 2 weeks which is 8K, probably needs 35k in repairs. Rent it out for 600 a month and you're looking at 8.5% returns.

Real Estate is way safer then Index funds. Just don't buy houses at retail.
01-31-2016 04:15 PM
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NASA Test Pilot Away
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Post: #35
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
Before I retired I found that I needed to answer 3 questions.

1. How much is enough? This had nothing to do with numbers, rather a psychological state where I needed to be at peace with what I had. This took me two years.

2. How much do I need to live? That depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. Crunch some numbers. I had been planning since I was a 23 year old 1stLT. Debt free by 33, financially free by 43 and on the sea by 53. I made it before 53.

3. What do I want to do with my time? This was by far the most important question. After almost 10 years of retirement, I am not bored and I look forward to my adventure tomorrow. Of course numbers 2 and 3 are related.
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 04:54 PM by NASA Test Pilot.)
01-31-2016 04:31 PM
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lavidaloca Offline
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Post: #36
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:15 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 04:03 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 03:56 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  I like traveling and I like the finer things in life. So, I figure around 365k a year in passive income would be sufficient to do the things I'd like to do.

6,083,000 at 6% returns in Real Estate would achieve this.

I'd like to be able to pretty much pack up at anytime I feel like and go wherever the fuck I want.

Rent a ferrari for a week, cool.
Take a luxury cruise around the world, cool.
Eat out at the best restaurants daily, cool.
Go to vegas for a week and blow 5k, cool.
Travel around europe in 5 star hotels, cool.

Realistically, I won't be spending a grand a day, so the rest of it would go back into investing in more real estate to increase returns in the long run.

I want to be able to set up a legacy for myself and make sure that my future family and generations will never have to worry about money ever in their lives, they will be free to do anything they'd like; painter, musician, physicist, inventor, writer, etc.


How to resolve this? Family life and doing whatever the fuck you want don't seem to mix.

This is actually a real issue I'm starting to grapple with.

Also, how would you achieve your 6% return in real estate? Index funds/bonds/etc seems like more of a sure thing to hit 7% return a year over time (which in turn allows for 4% a year to spend, with the rest going to increase your nest egg to account for inflation and also to cover taxes), less risk, and doesn't require work.

I know someone who lost a very substantial amount of his family's wealth in real estate.

I'm nit picking a bit, I agree with most of your post and like your approach...I like nice things too.

It's not really that hard to achieve 6% returns in real estate. I was actually being pretty conservative. Find distressed houses at low prices and buy them for cash, fix them up and rent them out.

A buddy of mine recently bought a place for 40k, put in 40k fixing it up and rents it out for 1k a month. 12K gross - 40/50% in costs is 6k a year profit. 7.5% returns.

You can do a lot better than that in the midwest. My dad's probably going to pick up a place in the next 2 weeks which is 8K, probably needs 35k in repairs. Rent it out for 600 a month and you're looking at 8.5% returns.

Real Estate is way safer then Index funds. Just don't buy houses at retail.

If it's residential...whose going to do repairs when you are halfway across the globe?

When a tenant leaves or stops paying rent and your in Asia are you going to come back to get a new tenant or do you have someone else to deal with it?

I think real estate sounds a lot sexier than it is as it really can turn into a job.
01-31-2016 04:36 PM
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lavidaloca Offline
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Post: #37
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
For me I put $1,000,000. $40,000 a year after taxes sounds nice to me as its relatively achievable at a young enough age to fully enjoy it. Plus I mean I could do bs side jobs around the globe that could turn into my party money.

It would be sufficient for me to have a nice lifestyle in Cuba.

I think Ideal would be $80,000 a year but it would also require 6 to 7 more years of work which is a susbtantial amount of ones lifetime especially when we are talking about going from 35 to 42. If we are talking 60 to 67 you are going to be old either way and the 2 million may very well be worth it.
01-31-2016 04:39 PM
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Post: #38
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
I have no answer to that question now, maybe go get 40k a year and live in souther america or asia, still the inflation in mind it would not enough for the rest. But yeah the idea is that it would be 4 % of.
I'm just finish my university and on the hunt for a job now, I had a 3 months trip in Japan and some other travels during my student time. All my money is gone but I don't regret. I guess I blow up about 10k in savings that I could have now, but would I have all those experience? No.

Now I'm in the situation with a lot of free time, I had free time as a student too but there was always the goal to finish the studies. I keep my self on track with sports, some other hobbies and stuff like that but I sure waste a lot of time now that I could use more productive. Before I went to university I worked a few years and everyone that works now there is just a short period of free time, so you are more productive. More discipline. Also work teach you something, it force you discipline, improvement. Not everyone can motivate himself, I know many guys that just play computer games and eat shitty food and get fat. This was never a problem for me, I try to improve even when I'm not always as productive as I could be.

I don't worry about not finding a job in the next time, but I also don't want to work in a job for the rest of my life and have nothing left at the end. So I spend a lot of time to look for business ideas, how I can create a side income. So when I get a job, my salary, then I want to push this career a litte and use the money for create a own business. I guess when you reach a certain amount of income, money don't matter anymore. I read about successful people. They made it not because their intention was money, it was a purpose, a goal. A man should have a goal of life, if not you are alone, you waste your potential. When you reach the point where you don't relay on a job in the system anymore, you still should find something that creates a deeper value for me.
To own a villa, a yacht and sleep with plenty of women like the super rich lifestyle is not my kind of stuff. I live quite spartanic. I admire the purity of less. I guess I could create a business and still do it because it offer me a deeper value of inner satisfaction.
I had some encounters with people that grew up rich, be honest they are often empty. When you buy something and worked for the money it has a different value then when you just got the money by your dad. Money becomes worthless when you have no connection how it was earned. I never want to go to the point where things don't matter to me anymore because I'm empty inside. When you get rich because your idea become real, when you earn money because the thing that you do give you value and money its great. But have kind of a money print machine where you did nothing for, how do you justify it with your self esteem? Rich kids think sometimes they own the world because they own money. Like sportstars that lose contact with reality. I never want to be like that.
I want to leave a stamp in life, a personal print, to create something where put my purpose in. So I guess I would never stop doing it, no mater how much money I would gain. Sit at a beach and drink coctails all day will get boring, like have all the free time now with no purpose is a strange feeling. I have to fill this time with something.

We will stand tall in the sunshine
With the truth upon our side
And if we have to go alone
We'll go alone with pride


For us, these conflicts can be resolved by appeal to the deeply ingrained higher principle embodied in the law, that individuals have the right (within defined limits) to choose how to live. But this Western notion of individualism and tolerance is by no means a conception in all cultures. - Theodore Dalrymple
01-31-2016 04:48 PM
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Post: #39
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:36 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 04:15 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 04:03 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 03:56 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  I like traveling and I like the finer things in life. So, I figure around 365k a year in passive income would be sufficient to do the things I'd like to do.

6,083,000 at 6% returns in Real Estate would achieve this.

I'd like to be able to pretty much pack up at anytime I feel like and go wherever the fuck I want.

Rent a ferrari for a week, cool.
Take a luxury cruise around the world, cool.
Eat out at the best restaurants daily, cool.
Go to vegas for a week and blow 5k, cool.
Travel around europe in 5 star hotels, cool.

Realistically, I won't be spending a grand a day, so the rest of it would go back into investing in more real estate to increase returns in the long run.

I want to be able to set up a legacy for myself and make sure that my future family and generations will never have to worry about money ever in their lives, they will be free to do anything they'd like; painter, musician, physicist, inventor, writer, etc.


How to resolve this? Family life and doing whatever the fuck you want don't seem to mix.

This is actually a real issue I'm starting to grapple with.

Also, how would you achieve your 6% return in real estate? Index funds/bonds/etc seems like more of a sure thing to hit 7% return a year over time (which in turn allows for 4% a year to spend, with the rest going to increase your nest egg to account for inflation and also to cover taxes), less risk, and doesn't require work.

I know someone who lost a very substantial amount of his family's wealth in real estate.

I'm nit picking a bit, I agree with most of your post and like your approach...I like nice things too.

It's not really that hard to achieve 6% returns in real estate. I was actually being pretty conservative. Find distressed houses at low prices and buy them for cash, fix them up and rent them out.

A buddy of mine recently bought a place for 40k, put in 40k fixing it up and rents it out for 1k a month. 12K gross - 40/50% in costs is 6k a year profit. 7.5% returns.

You can do a lot better than that in the midwest. My dad's probably going to pick up a place in the next 2 weeks which is 8K, probably needs 35k in repairs. Rent it out for 600 a month and you're looking at 8.5% returns.

Real Estate is way safer then Index funds. Just don't buy houses at retail.

If it's residential...whose going to do repairs when you are halfway across the globe?

When a tenant leaves or stops paying rent and your in Asia are you going to come back to get a new tenant or do you have someone else to deal with it?

I think real estate sounds a lot sexier than it is as it really can turn into a job.

Property managers. 5-10% of rental cost goes to property management. I have a place in CO that rents out for 1350 a month, 135 goes to the property manager. I live in New Mexico. They deal with pretty much everything, from scheduling repairs to raising rents. Just make sure you get a good manager, a bad one will leave your place losing money on vacancies and getting ripped off with repair costs.

You can always scale these into larger complexes, 4 plexes, 8 plexes, etc if you don't want to deal with multiple properties.
01-31-2016 04:52 PM
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SunW Offline
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Post: #40
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
450K should be enough.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2016 04:00 PM by SunW.)
01-31-2016 05:09 PM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #41
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:15 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  It's not really that hard to achieve 6% returns in real estate. I was actually being pretty conservative. Find distressed houses at low prices and buy them for cash, fix them up and rent them out.

A buddy of mine recently bought a place for 40k, put in 40k fixing it up and rents it out for 1k a month. 12K gross - 40/50% in costs is 6k a year profit. 7.5% returns.

You can do a lot better than that in the midwest. My dad's probably going to pick up a place in the next 2 weeks which is 8K, probably needs 35k in repairs. Rent it out for 600 a month and you're looking at 8.5% returns.

Real Estate is way safer then Index funds. Just don't buy houses at retail.

I don't think real estate is safer than index funds.

I also think there is a lot of work and risk involved in purchasing, rehabbing, and renting out a property.

Also work involved in maintaining it and collecting rent.

And risk at both stages - the rehab work might be more expensive than you thought, there could be tax or regulatory issues, you could have a problem tenant, legal expenses, etc etc etc.

I've heard some people on this forum say stuff like if I had 2 million dollars I would build a 10 unit development and sell each unit for 400K and make 100% profit! As if it is easy to build, nothing unexpected happens, and every unit sells at full price with minimal hassle, and you never get sued or need to pay a lawyer or anything.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
01-31-2016 05:16 PM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #42
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 04:31 PM)NASA Test Pilot Wrote:  Before I retired I found that I needed to answer 3 questions.

1. How much is enough? This had nothing to do with numbers, rather a psychological state where I needed to be at peace with what I had. This took me two years.

2. How much do I need to live? That depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. Crunch some numbers. I had been planning since I was a 23 year old 1stLT. Debt free by 33, financially free by 43 and on the sea by 53. I made it before 53.

3. What do I want to do with my time? This was by far the most important question. After almost 10 years of retirement, I am not bored and I look forward to my adventure tomorrow. Of course numbers 2 and 3 are related.

Congrats!
I would love to hear more about your journey and how you occupy your time.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
01-31-2016 05:19 PM
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captain_shane Offline
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Post: #43
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 05:16 PM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  
(01-31-2016 04:15 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  It's not really that hard to achieve 6% returns in real estate. I was actually being pretty conservative. Find distressed houses at low prices and buy them for cash, fix them up and rent them out.

A buddy of mine recently bought a place for 40k, put in 40k fixing it up and rents it out for 1k a month. 12K gross - 40/50% in costs is 6k a year profit. 7.5% returns.

You can do a lot better than that in the midwest. My dad's probably going to pick up a place in the next 2 weeks which is 8K, probably needs 35k in repairs. Rent it out for 600 a month and you're looking at 8.5% returns.

Real Estate is way safer then Index funds. Just don't buy houses at retail.

I don't think real estate is safer than index funds.

I also think there is a lot of work and risk involved in purchasing, rehabbing, and renting out a property.

Also work involved in maintaining it and collecting rent.

And risk at both stages - the rehab work might be more expensive than you thought, there could be tax or regulatory issues, you could have a problem tenant, legal expenses, etc etc etc.

I've heard some people on this forum say stuff like if I had 2 million dollars I would build a 10 unit development and sell each unit for 400K and make 100% profit! As if it is easy to build, nothing unexpected happens, and every unit sells at full price with minimal hassle, and you never get sued or need to pay a lawyer or anything.

Development is by far the riskiest form of real estate, it's also the most profitable.

Thing is, you won't get rich in index funds and you won't get rich without any risk.

I'd say 80-90% don't even have a chance at becoming wealthy. They either don't have the intellect, or they really just don't don't want to become wealthy. Only a small percentage of people actually have what it takes.

I have a high risk tolerance because I want to become wealthy. I would never be satisfied at 40-50k a year income. I would probably end up killing myself if all I ever became was average.

I won't be this guy:
[Image: bWv7tvS.jpg]

Married to this:
[Image: article-2287411-062DA4E3000005DC-115_306x423.jpg]

Living in this house:
[Image: 1427911833-country-listings-pennsylvania-0515.jpg]
01-31-2016 05:50 PM
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Post: #44
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
One million USD per month passive income for me.
01-31-2016 06:03 PM
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VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Offline
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Post: #45
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 05:50 PM)captain_shane Wrote:  Development is by far the riskiest form of real estate, it's also the most profitable.

Thing is, you won't get rich in index funds and you won't get rich without any risk.

I'd say 80-90% don't even have a chance at becoming wealthy. They either don't have the intellect, or they really just don't don't want to become wealthy. Only a small percentage of people actually have what it takes.

I have a high risk tolerance because I want to become wealthy. I would never be satisfied at 40-50k a year income. I would probably end up killing myself if all I ever became was average.

I won't be this guy:
[Image: bWv7tvS.jpg]

Married to this:
[Image: article-2287411-062DA4E3000005DC-115_306x423.jpg]

Living in this house:
[Image: 1427911833-country-listings-pennsylvania-0515.jpg]

40-50 K is almost baller status for a single male in southern Spain. I would consider coming here or another low cost area before offing yourself.

I'm talking about index funds as a method of wealth conservation that creates a stable passive income, not as a way to build 5MM in liquid assets.

If you somehow have a substantial amount of money, and want to manage it well to ensure your standard of living and the financial future of your descendants, then I think index funds are the way to go, along with a couple other things.

There are definitely people who have built fortunes from real estate, but that's not something I have any significant knowledge of.

If you go for it, I sincerely hope that your drive and energy is met with favorable circumstances and it all works out.

Swing for the fences.

"Me llaman el desaparecido
Que cuando llega ya se ha ido
Volando vengo, volando voy
Deprisa deprisa a rumbo perdido"
01-31-2016 06:06 PM
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lavidaloca Offline
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Post: #46
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
This question really also has a geographical factor. Where do you dream of living. Someone wanting to live in NYC could forseeably want $10,000,000. While that would just be stupid amounts for someone in Colombia or Bangkok.
01-31-2016 06:17 PM
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captain_shane Offline
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Post: #47
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
(01-31-2016 06:03 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  One million USD per month passive income for me.

[Image: 55MWqhs.png]
01-31-2016 06:26 PM
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Post: #48
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
One thing to consider is there may come a point where you just can't work anymore. Not just physically, but psychologically. I'm at that point now with software consulting. I just can't stand it anymore. Maybe if I take 4 months off I'll have the desire to do it again for a while. I don't know, but I do know my current gig will be my last for a while

Nasa is right about needing to feel psychologically comfortable with the money you have, but we won't know what that is until we just dive in and start swimming and sometimes you just have to make do with what you have anyway. I don't want to waste the rest of my mid-late 40s in a cube working on yet another shitty project with shitty people.

Minimum monthly expenses for most anywhere in the world is going to be $1,000/month. You can get by in many pussy-paradises with that. Won't leave much for extras, but if you want to bootstrap for a while it's do-able and in some places for less than that.

The main thing is developing the three things necessary to keep your boat afloat.

1) Passive Income
2) Savings
3) Low Expenses

Even if you're in your 20's you should be building your ark, because you never know when the storm might come.
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2016 06:30 PM by Onto.)
01-31-2016 06:28 PM
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Post: #49
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
Quote:40-50 K is almost baller status for a single male in southern Spain.

Thanks for sharing. I had no idea. I'm assuming it's because of the rampant unemployment? What's stopping financially independent people from moving there and driving up the prices?
01-31-2016 06:36 PM
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Post: #50
RE: How much is enough? At what passive income level would you stop working?
Never stop working, but work on what I want to work on.
01-31-2016 06:41 PM
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