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The Orthodox Church
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Radu Anghel Offline
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Post: #326
RE: The Orthodox Church
(11-25-2019 01:28 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 08:24 PM)Emperor Constantine Wrote:  As orthodox Christians, we believe a lot of things that are not direct quotes from Christ. For us, the whole Bible is the word of God.

Straw man. This is true for all Christians. I am obviously not saying that only things directly said by Christ count.

Quote:Miraculous relics are mentioned numerous times in the scriptures. For example, as Radu mentioned above, in 2 Kings 13:20-21 when a man is raised from the dead through contact with Elijah's bones, in Matthew 9:20-22 when a woman is healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, or Acts 19:11-22 when people are cured of illnesses and released from demons by touching handkerchiefs that Paul had touched.

I read the link from the Orthodox information center.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics_place.aspx

It turned out to be as I thought it would. A couple places in the OT directly talking about bones. You say Elijah, but your Bible verses refer to Elisha, so if you are going to be correcting someone's view it's good to keep your prophets straight.

The New Testament references, the hem of the cloth or touching handkerchiefs are in no way obvious directives to do the same. These could also easily be interpreted as examples of people whose faith was so strong, that even touching inanimate objects could heal.

Tracking down these verses and trying to make sense of them reminded me of this scene from Life of Brian:





Like I'm saying, "These Orthodox kind of funny" and George Thorogood saying:

"I know, everybody funny."

Quote:If you look at pictures of the catacombs, you'll see where the early Christians celebrated the Lord's Supper surrounded by the bones of their martyred brothers and sisters. They believed, like orthodox Christians today, in a personal God who interacts with the world He created, not an abstract, non-miracle working deity.

Another straw man. Failure to venerate bones in no way means that a person thinks God doesn't interact with the world.

The main point I got from the linked article was that there is a greater emphasis on the body for the Orthodox Church, and as such pieces of the body carry holiness.

That helps me understand the practice much better than any of the linked scriptures, none of which seem to be indications of making things that happened in specific Bible accounts into common practice.

I still think it is weird, but at least I understand the reasoning.

Ultimately I don't care because every denomination has its weirdness, and an individual practice in the church cannot be used to condemn the whole church. It is the whole that matters.

I didn't make the first post in the spirit of being right or condemning Orthodox Christianity; I was giving a personal and sincere response to an aspect of Orthodox practice, and am happy to be enlightened.

I still find this practice to be a bit ghoulish, although if it brings a believer close to God, then praise the Lord.

Quote:
(11-24-2019 02:44 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  It is just that neither seem necessary at all to be a Christian, and they make Orthodox Christianity seem foreign, if not archaic.

Our belief in a personal God who makes himself known to us through relics or icons amongst other things is hardly the most archaic thing we believe. And it is archaic, because it's a belief system that goes back thousands of years. The whole roster of Christian belief is at odds with modern thinking; God becoming man, a virgin giving birth, people resurrecting from the dead, male-only Church leadership, the wrongness of man-on-man sex, etc. These things seem archaic because they are. But they're not some random old things; they're part of a story that's still being played out in the world around us.

If it seems foreign to you, I can only urge you to read the scriptures; they are the written record of God's revelation, and they're very out of step with modern thinking.

I am a Christian, dude, I know all of this stuff. This is very condescending. In fact, a lot of counter arguments I have been getting lately from very recent converts shares this same, spirit-signaling tone of condescension.

It is pretty off putting.

Some of you might want to think that people who don't agree with you might have good reasons, and try to look at their questions as valid in a subtler way than you think they are capable of having.

It can get pretty stuffy in here with a lot of unearned spiritual oneupsmanship.

It will drive a lot of good people away.

I'm thinking of making the slow fade myself.

I understand the article I posted above did not clear things much, I am adding 1 more with further explanations. The Orthodox faith is based on the Bible and Tradition, the Christians of the first centirues did not have the full Bible and the Church did not discard the traditions not mentioned in the Bible if they are in keeping with its teachings.
http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2018/7/11...oly-relics
http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2018/7/11...cs-part-ii
11-26-2019 07:27 AM
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infowarrior1 Offline
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Post: #327
RE: The Orthodox Church
(11-25-2019 10:07 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 09:50 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 09:19 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  The standard of the Scriptures and the Fathers is this:

If any man, priest, monk, bishop, or even Patriarch teaches something which violates the Scriptures, then that person is wrong. His rank doesn’t matter in that case - he is simply wrong and in need of correction, regardless of station.

BUT...

Neither the Bible nor the Fathers taught the Protestant notion of “Sola Scriptura,” which often includes the concept that anything *not* found in the Bible is automatically wrong.

Agreed. And many Protestants also agree with this statement. Sola Scriptura is about the supremacy of Scripture by which everything in church practice is evaluated by the holy standard. Since it is regarded as the sole source of divine inspiration and all others are subordinate to it.

So I thinks its a erroneous perception to say that all Protestants think and act this way.

Although many of them do take offense that somehow such things violate the 2nd commandment.

That of no graven image of any kind that is to be venerated. And often the saints don't even have descriptions of what they look like to prevent such a thing from occurring.

Now if such pictures were to depict stories in regards to historical events then I would not be so autistic to say that such a thing is idolatrous.

The Cherubim and the open flowers and the Palm Trees were given in a dream to David as part of the Temple Plans. None of which were venerated.

Even the Altars of God were to be uncarved stone in the OT.

Explain the ornateness of the Ark, the Mercy Seat, etc, and explicit instructions on making it clearly a majestic "reliquary' of the commandments.

Could the Ark have been made an idol? Yes, like anything else --- as both God and his people know.

I don't see any alternative explanation to un-carved stone altars until the Ark of the Covenant that is meant to symbolize the throne of God. With the glory of God literally sitting on it mirroring the seating God of the Father on his heavenly Throne literally dwelling between the Cherubim who represent the 4 living creatures that guard the Throne.

It does seem to be an exception when its explicitly commanded by God.

However once the Glory departed from the Ark. Then its no longer of any relevance. As it is a shadow of what is to come.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2019 08:11 AM by infowarrior1.)
11-26-2019 07:54 AM
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infowarrior1 Offline
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Post: #328
RE: The Orthodox Church
(11-26-2019 12:54 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  I completely agree with what Florovsky wrote. But there are many many Protestants who do use the phrase to mean “me and my Bible, alone in my room” without regard to historic or patristic practice and exegetical interpretation. That was the notion I was referring to. Perhaps “solo” Scriptura would be more accurate for that than “Sola.”

Agreed. I think that's also a potential consequence of the relatively greater autonomy the protestant has in regards to the faith.

And that it can become a one-man army priest against the world.



Although more likely to be forged by fire their faith holds far more firm:

[Image: PF_14.11.13_LatinAmericaSurveyCommittment.png]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...n-america/

And since "liberal" protestants often apostatize and that this stance requires more familiarity with the faith it seems to be pulling against the poz is much stronger compared to other faiths:

[Image: Screen%2BShot%2B2019-10-29%2Bat%2B11.37.05%2Bpm.png]

Evangelicals are the ones most likely to be dragged kicking and screaming against the poz at least in the US
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2019 08:08 AM by infowarrior1.)
11-26-2019 08:02 AM
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ilostabet Offline
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Post: #329
RE: The Orthodox Church
I found this talk by an Orthodox Priest at the World Congress of Families about the rainbow mafia. Nothing new to us here, of course.





I wanted to see what else he had to say so went on his channel and watched a couple other videos. As expected, solid priest. I particularly liked this video:





But then I did a search on him, and I found something I was not aware of. Article after article, and post after post, and comment after comment, from Orthodox sources, calling him a bigot, and saying he doesn't represent Orthodoxy, and so on - and the stuff they picked on are things that shouldnt be controversial - lgbt indocrination, contraception, husband being the head of the marriage, etc. I thought Orthodoxy was mostly safe from this liberal infiltration, but apparently this is not the case.

What I don't get is, why would anyone that thinks marriage should be equal, that thinks lgbt people should be welcomed and not repent, and all that liberal propaganda, go to the Orthodox Church? Merely to subvert I suppose.

In my search I also ended up finding one Sister Vassa, who apparently encourages parents of children who 'came out' to let them have sodomy 'within the home'.

I probably shouldn't be surprised, but I was.

We made too many wrong mistakes. Yogi Berra
11-26-2019 01:33 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #330
RE: The Orthodox Church
Sister Vassa’s opinions have been condemned by the clergy above her, and they instructed her to stop what she was doing.

Father Josiah is an Archpriest, and in my opinion the best Orthodox homilist in America. World of difference as you’ve noted. I'm not saying that everything he says is infallible, but his teachings on the basics like how marriages and households should be run is straight from the Scriptures. People who virtue-signal against Father Josiah's explanation of these things are part of the problem we face in this country, of the spirits of liberalism and feminism infecting the Church with nobody but a few men standing against it.

You hear a lot of lip service against these ideas but the truth is that many Orthodox parishes are subtly run by the women and they are very willing to call the bishop and complain if a priest is too trad for their liking.

It’s nowhere near as bad as what the RCC is facing, but someday it might be if the next couple generations of clergy don’t get things back on track.

Check out Father Barnabas Powell on the “Faith Encouraged” YouTube channel, his sermons are great as well.

It's also worth nothing that Father Josiah has 10 children, by a wife who still adores him and keeps herself in great shape, so let that speak for itself and give some context to the hatred he gets.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2019 02:47 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
11-26-2019 02:26 PM
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infowarrior1 Offline
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Post: #331
RE: The Orthodox Church
@MichaelWitcoff

Looks like the infiltration/subversion process has already begun. To give a Catholic example. Even altering the Magisterium and all the other foundations of Roman Catholic tradition.

Or what constitutes Orthodox tradition.
(This post was last modified: 11-26-2019 09:25 PM by infowarrior1.)
11-26-2019 09:10 PM
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Aboulia Offline
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Post: #332
RE: The Orthodox Church
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(This post was last modified: 11-27-2019 07:54 PM by Aboulia.)
11-27-2019 07:51 PM
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OscarManheim Offline
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Post: #333
RE: The Orthodox Church
So here's my situation (in short_)

Interested to know how it would be to just attend a service, which is this Sunday

My family have tried several Churches in my area, and it has been a disaster to say the least; female pastors, acceptance of homo's, tranny's and the like... me being an absolute NO GO on any of this it's just a constant coming home from a cold shower.

I NEED peace for my family.

Always been fascinated by the Orthodox church, but our nearest is an hour away so I want to make it special for my family.
Is it ok to just walk in??
12-02-2019 11:43 AM
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Aboulia Offline
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Post: #334
RE: The Orthodox Church
(12-02-2019 11:43 AM)OscarManheim Wrote:  So here's my situation (in short_)

Interested to know how it would be to just attend a service, which is this Sunday

My family have tried several Churches in my area, and it has been a disaster to say the least; female pastors, acceptance of homo's, tranny's and the like... me being an absolute NO GO on any of this it's just a constant coming home from a cold shower.

I NEED peace for my family.

Always been fascinated by the Orthodox church, but our nearest is an hour away so I want to make it special for my family.
Is it ok to just walk in??

I know my parish is fine with walk ins, and we do segregate male/female, and most of the women wear head coverings.

It's best to call the parish ahead of your visit. Orthodoxy has a large variation in strictness. If you remember, Roosh wasn't allowed past the narthex during service in one of the monasteries he visited. I know of a Russian parish which won't let you in if you're dressed immodestly. For women that's a dress/kerchief.

If you haven't already, I suggest you familiarize yourself with Orthodoxy, If you don't like reading, Jonathan Pageau's channel on youtube is a gold mine. Start with this one.
12-02-2019 12:37 PM
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