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Libertarian Party discussion
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weambulance Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
Bro, I've described myself as a small-l libertarian for years. I have major, major issues with the Libertarian Party because it's fucking ridiculous, will never have any power, and just siphons votes off to make shit easier for the Democrats.

We probably agree quite a lot on political philosophy.

But where you're going off the rails here is in not understanding why Donald Trump is presenting the image he has chosen to present. Donald Trump is not stupid. He is not a buffoon. He is using rhetoric, and speaking to the common man. He plays the media like a fiddle. Do you honestly believe that's all by accident?

If you expect him to speak to you in a way you would prefer, using only logic and facts and details, you're going to be disappointed because that doesn't work on about 95% of the population. He will lose if he does that.

I have to ask, do you have experience as a speaker? I'm curious because as someone who is a pretty solid public speaker and teacher, I can see Mr. Trump doing exactly the things he needs to to get his message across: he's tailoring his presentation to his audience, telling them why they should care about what he's saying, and keeping them engaged by being entertaining, reacting to the crowd, and not rigidly following written speeches. It doesn't look like the typical politician, so people often conclude that he's an idiot when he is in fact being quite shrewd.

I don't agree with everything Mr. Trump says, but I do agree with a solid chunk of it, and it's obvious that Hillary will be an absolute disaster. I'm not voting for the lesser of two evils at all. Donald Trump is only the second political candidate I've ever wanted to vote for; in every other election I was voting against someone. Donald Trump is offering to take the first serious steps to fixing this country in decades. It would be insane to walk away from that over purity concerns (like most libertarians), or because you simply don't understand the way he communicates because you're in the 5% of people who respond to logic and facts.
09-27-2016 12:23 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #152
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:18 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  In a two-party system, the libertarian party's only function is to divert votes from the Republican party and make the democratic party stronger, leading to bigger government. If you actually want to make a different, voting republican is your only choice.
No, voting for a failed system is not my only choice. I don't have to do what you say. You continually vote for a failed two-party system, yet an educated, intelligent man will tell you that there were once whigs and torries, and we don't have those anymore. How did those parties go away if there were no other options?

Why would I vote for republicans? Because they SAY they want smaller government? What have the republicans done to promote smaller government? Do you ever look at their voting records, or do you just hear what they said? Because if you're not looking at their records, then you're to blame. George W. Bush said he wanted to curtail the Department of Education. He more than doubled their budget. He said he was against nation building. He's spent TRILLIONS in Iraq building schools, hospitals, and our new embassy in Iraq cost over one billion dollars. And the republicans in congress supported it.

Republicans don't want smaller government. They only say they do. And they know their voters are too stupid and lazy and watching Duck Dynasty to Google their records to find out how they actually voted.

If it offends you that I said the voters were stupid, then touche. You disparaged my intelligence first.
09-27-2016 12:30 AM
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SamuelBRoberts Offline
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Post: #153
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
"If it offends you that I said the voters were stupid, then touche. You disparaged my intelligence first."

Not to derail the discussion, but why do you feel this would offend me?

I'm really confused by that.
09-27-2016 12:32 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #154
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:32 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  "If it offends you that I said the voters were stupid, then touche. You disparaged my intelligence first."

Not to derail the discussion, but why do you feel this would offend me?

I'm really confused by that.
Because I've discovered that usually the first ones to hurl epithets are the first snowflakes to get their feelings hurt. So, if you got hurt that I said these things after you said I was a retard, then sorry, not sorry.
09-27-2016 12:34 AM
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SamuelBRoberts Offline
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Post: #155
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
That's really weird... No, that didn't offend me. It never occurred to me that it was intended to offend me.

That's another problem with Libertarians. They're all socially maladjusted weirdos, like that old fat guy that stripped off his clothes in the middle of the convention.
09-27-2016 12:36 AM
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Rush87 Offline
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Post: #156
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:23 AM)weambulance Wrote:  Bro, I've described myself as a small-l libertarian for years. I have major, major issues with the Libertarian Party because it's fucking ridiculous, will never have any power, and just siphons votes off to make shit easier for the Democrats.

We probably agree quite a lot on political philosophy.

But where you're going off the rails here is in not understanding why Donald Trump is presenting the image he has chosen to present. Donald Trump is not stupid. He is not a buffoon. He is using rhetoric, and speaking to the common man. He plays the media like a fiddle. Do you honestly believe that's all by accident?

If you expect him to speak to you in a way you would prefer, using only logic and facts and details, you're going to be disappointed because that doesn't work on about 95% of the population. He will lose if he does that.

I have to ask, do you have experience as a speaker? I'm curious because as someone who is a pretty solid public speaker and teacher, I can see Mr. Trump doing exactly the things he needs to to get his message across: he's tailoring his presentation to his audience, telling them why they should care about what he's saying, and keeping them engaged by being entertaining, reacting to the crowd, and not rigidly following written speeches. It doesn't look like the typical politician, so people often conclude that he's an idiot when he is in fact being quite shrewd.

I don't agree with everything Mr. Trump says, but I do agree with a solid chunk of it, and it's obvious that Hillary will be an absolute disaster. I'm not voting for the lesser of two evils at all. Donald Trump is only the second political candidate I've ever wanted to vote for; in every other election I was voting against someone. Donald Trump is offering to take the first serious steps to fixing this country in decades. It would be insane to walk away from that over purity concerns (like most libertarians), or because you simply don't understand the way he communicates because you're in the 5% of people who respond to logic and facts.

It's sales 101. Match and mirror. He's applying sales methodology to the largest demographic. It's the pyramid of intelligence: If you cannot explain your area of expertise to someone with no knowledge of the topic, you are not wise. You're well read, but you are not wise. Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.

[Image: AAEAAQAAAAAAAAT-AAAAJDM0MDQ5MmU0LTc2ZDIt...ZmJhMw.png]
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2016 12:38 AM by Rush87.)
09-27-2016 12:37 AM
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weambulance Offline
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Post: #157
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
I think Republican officeholders have largely been either controlled opposition or total fucking pussies for several election cycles now. I want them to burn. I'm sick of these cunts like Ryan and McConnell pissing down my back and telling me it's rain. I'm a lot angrier at people like them, who pretend to represent me while betraying me, than the people who are at least honest about being my enemies.

The third parties have been jokes my whole life. There's no fucking way any of them are going to rise to prominence, if only because nearly the entire voting population knows not to take them seriously.

You say you want to get a new party going, and you don't support Mr. Trump, who has been corncobbing the whole establishment for a year? People like Donald Trump are how parties are disrupted and re-routed.
09-27-2016 12:42 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #158
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:37 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.
09-27-2016 12:43 AM
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SamuelBRoberts Offline
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Post: #159
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
"It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.
If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different."

It would be also be better if he could shoot lasers out of his eyes. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a compelling argument.
09-27-2016 12:47 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #160
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:42 AM)weambulance Wrote:  There's no fucking way any of them are going to rise to prominence, if only because nearly the entire voting population knows not to take them seriously.
And that attitude will get you the same two party system. If you're not willing to change the system with your votes or your money, then whose fault is the two party system? If you continue to support the same assholes, then is it the assholes' fault for doing the same trickery to get your vote? Or is it your fault for falling for it?

You want different government? Then stop voting for the same government.

I still find it crazy that I'm the outsider. You guys say you want something different, yet you keep voting for the same corrupt shitheads.
09-27-2016 12:47 AM
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GlobalMan Away
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Post: #161
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-26-2016 11:19 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  So, since I've been relegated to my libertarian thread and I'm not welcome to have any discourse in the republican thread, I welcome you into the libertarian discussion.

Cut the bullshit.

You are perfectly welcome to join the discussion in any thread you like- it's the derailing of a thread meant for one topic into a completely different one that doesn't work and is frowned up.

Likewise being a dick- that is not going to go over well anywhere, and why you've often faced a poor reception. It's not a censoring of speech, it's just a natural reaction to the drunk dude in the corner talking shit and trying to fight everyone.

On the other hand, a guy who can stay calm and present some reasonable arguments -in the appropriate thread- will always be welcomed and encouraged to participate.

Chill out and stop pretending there is some conspiracy to shut down your speech when it's simply your attitude that has turned people off- it will go a long way to taking what you have to say more seriously, and prevent you from being banned.

Americans are dreamers too
09-27-2016 12:48 AM
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Slim Shady Offline
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Post: #162
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
I care a lot about civil liberties man.

I have a big problem with a lot of what cops do. I have a big problem with stop and frisk. I have a big problem with the Patriot Act.

However, I do think the Fed needs to be held accountable, the TSA must be reformed, the tax code must be reformed, we must rethink NATO, and stop funding countries that hate us --> especially Pakistan, but I'm biased there.

So these pros are big issues, and Mr. Trump is for them. I don't live in an autistic fantasy world, and realize that change must be gradual, unless one nukes the world.

I also know for a certainty that the Clintons are evil people, and no different than the Bushs. We are not rooting for Mr. Trump because he is a Republican, we are voting for him because he is not. Republicans hate him, and yet can't do anything about him!

I truly wish Ron Paul had become the President, but he didn't have the savy to deal with the completely rigged system put against him. He could have blown any other candidate who has run in the - last god know how long - out of the water. Alas, people respond most to pathos. Even if people responded more to reason, it wouldn't matter because the media, which is almost all connected, lies and misrepresents facts. Libertarians today do not seem to understand that utility functions are variable, and inter-connected. We aren't dealing with simple economics equations on a board, people are more complex, especially if you can not connect with them and truly understand their motives.

---

For example, I gain more utility from being free and not being told what to do than my safety or "doing the right thing". If I had to go to prison for a long time, I would kill myself probably very quickly, or do something rash to escape.

What also gives people utility is making money. A lot of libertarian align with this. But what about the Saudis? Read the history of the House of Saud, and how they went against their own people. sided with the Brits against the Ottoman Caliphate, and overthrew the major house in Arabia, which is now the ruling family of Syria, exiled from SA. The Saudis are thus afraid that their own people, the wahabbists, will decapitate them if they can not keep US support, and keep the energy hegemony.

So now this changes the Saudi Utility function drastically. They are willing to undercut oil prices much lower than expected to combat the rising US fracking industry and take massive losses, because those loses still don't compare to having their heads cut off, and losing their hundreds of billions of dollars in wealth and power.

Saudi's have a huge vested interest in the US elections, therefore, and anyone trying to cut foreign aid, like RP or DT, will be fought. The fact that Saudi's own parts of CNN, Fox, Twitter, etc, makes the media very dishonest.

---

So how do we combat this? I think that while Mr. Trump is far from ideal on civil liberties issues, once we have our country back, and remove or atleast greatly reduce foreign globalist influences (Soros, Saudis, etc), we can be self-determinant. In a country of good honest people, it is much easier to be Libertarian [internally] because the people in a peaceful environment, with shared interests, are much more likely to adhere to the non-aggression principle which is very crucial for Libertarian policies to work.

The mistake that a lot of Libertarians make is misunderstanding utility functions, or not understanding people. Our naturally rebellious nature can make a lot of us bad fits for normie society. But once we understand the true nature of some people, it becomes easier to understand how they will respond to certain triggers.

The bottom line is this: we are fighting the culture war in the hopes of potentially righting the ship so that we may be able to have a much more libertarian society in the future. A lot of Trump supporters are RP supporters, and certainly would work for these freedoms after Nov. 8th,but right now we are lazer forcused on the task at hand, so everything else is just distraction.

Audit the Fed, cutting foreign aid, non-intervention/nation building, tax code --> all big issues, that Republican candidates do not ever talk about. Big wins in my book.

---

Here's an imperfect analogy for you if you've read your Asimov:

Mr. Trump is the Mule.

Regardless, if #neverTrump Libertarians were not hypocrites I would respect them more. This is why I still respect Dr. Paul immensely. Not for TPP - which is BIG Government, not for forcing people to bake gay wedding cakes, and not for gun control. If you're going to follow the letter, go all the way.

You don't get there till you get there
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2016 12:58 AM by Slim Shady.)
09-27-2016 12:49 AM
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Rush87 Offline
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Post: #163
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:43 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:37 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.

No it wouldn't. Everyone changes their mind on a frequent basis because the world tomorrow isn't the same as the world today. We try and hold humans to a standard which is unreasonable. I prefer big picture politics, and in the big picture, he's consistent.

Gary Johnson has an open border policy. Big picture. Fucks the nation. Hillary Clinton has an open border policy. Big picture fucks the nation. Trump wants far tighter borders, big picture, helps the nation.

I could run through the same things with regards to trade, male/female dynamics, censorship of speech etc etc. Trump's big picture is head and shoulders above every single candidate currently available.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2016 12:50 AM by Rush87.)
09-27-2016 12:49 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #164
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:47 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  "It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.
If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different."

It would be also be better if he could shoot lasers out of his eyes. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a compelling argument.
Well, let me explain my innuendo. I forgot that I wasn't speaking to fellow educated libertarians.

Trump is what people call a flip flopper. Or some might say a populist. He says whatever that day he thinks may be the most popular thing to get votes from the most uneducated voters.

Others might call him a demagogue, but I don't want to throw around too many big words in this setting.
09-27-2016 12:51 AM
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weambulance Offline
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Post: #165
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
Okay, fuck off man, you're trolling, and you are not nearly as educated as you seem to think. Oooh, populist! Demagogue! More of the one dimensional buzzword-based thinking I've been calling out since April.

Troll

Don't bother guys, you're wasting your time.
09-27-2016 12:54 AM
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AneroidOcean Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:43 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:37 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.

Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?

You said he has a low IQ. Since I'm not a genius, can you break down for me how exactly someone with a low IQ graduated from the Wharton school and how he has managed to run so many successful companies?

BrewDog, you're a troll amongst trolls. Disagreeing is fine, but not providing ANYTHING to support your argument, just shows your troll colors. You have experience being a troll, but it's all bad experience.

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09-27-2016 12:55 AM
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Post: #167
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:51 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  Well, let me explain my innuendo. I forgot that I wasn't speaking to fellow educated libertarians.

Others might call him a demagogue, but I don't want to throw around too many big words in this setting.

Yes BrewDog, these words are just all too much for us idiots that make up the forum to understand tard

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09-27-2016 12:56 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:48 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  
(09-26-2016 11:19 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  So, since I've been relegated to my libertarian thread and I'm not welcome to have any discourse in the republican thread, I welcome you into the libertarian discussion.

Cut the bullshit.

You are perfectly welcome to join the discussion in any thread you like- it's the derailing of a thread meant for one topic into a completely different one that doesn't work and is frowned up.

Likewise being a dick- that is not going to go over well anywhere, and why you've often faced a poor reception. It's not a censoring of speech, it's just a natural reaction to the drunk dude in the corner talking shit and trying to fight everyone.

On the other hand, a guy who can stay calm and present some reasonable arguments -in the appropriate thread- will always be welcomed and encouraged to participate.

Chill out and stop pretending there is some conspiracy to shut down your speech when it's simply your attitude that has turned people off- it will go a long way to taking what you have to say more seriously, and prevent you from being banned.
I was invited to leave your Trump thread on multiple occasions. Has any libertarian asked any of you to leave "our" thread despite you having discourse with our philosophy?

Libertarians rub people the wrong way. I still can't figure it out. Ben Franklin and I would get along GREAT. Yet my beliefs in liberty and small government always piss off both major parties. The left calls us far right, and the right says we're super liberal. Some people say we're moderates. But 98% of Americans think we're kooks, and I just don't get it. I'm as normal of an American red-blooded guy as you can get. I was an infantry Marine. I salute our flag and put my hand over my heart during the anthem. I like kittens and firefighters. I drink beer and fuck as much pooty as I can.

I don't understand the backlash against libertarians. I truly don't. It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom.
09-27-2016 01:00 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Post: #169
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 12:55 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:43 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:37 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.

Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-po...story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...-combined/
09-27-2016 01:05 AM
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Post: #170
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 01:00 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom.

Read my post above.

Utility functions.

Not in the best interests of the powers to allow more self-deterministic people.

The only goal of the government is ever increasing government. Power is a drug.

Right now they are all about letting in as many people as possible who will vote for bigger government and higher welfare.

They are for more "diverse" people to come in, so that they can incite riots, implement martial law, and do away with the whole damn sham of democracy!

Trump is the only way to fight this immediate problem.

If you were to completely ignore what Mr. Trump is actually doing - Pacing and Leading - and only focused on policy, he is still infinitely better than every President we have had since Calvin Coolidge.

This is the worst case, which does not take into account the fact that he is the only chance for us to save this country for a self-deterministic future.

What are you thoughts on Nigel Farage and Brexit?

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09-27-2016 01:07 AM
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SamuelBRoberts Offline
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Post: #171
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
"I don't understand the backlash against libertarians. I truly don't. It's the most logical mindset for an American that I can fathom."

Why do you think you know so many people's interests better than they do?
People LIKE social security. They LIKE highways. They like the police. They like firefighters. They like public schools. When you tell them you're going to take away all these things and replace them all with some strange, ill-defined privatized replacements, they don't like that.

It doesn't matter if you, personally, think that we'd be better off with private firefighters and fully-privatized schools. The vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

This isn't really that hard.
09-27-2016 01:09 AM
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Rush87 Offline
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Post: #172
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 01:05 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:55 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:43 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:37 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Trump is taking complex issues, and delivering answers in a small concise message that everyone understands.
It would be even better if he didn't change his mind daily.

If you don't like what Trump says, just wait 24 hours, it'll be completely different.

Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-po...story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...-combined/

Politifact is far from factual: Gary Johnson, due to the fact that he is largely unknown, has just 16 statements, and just one of those is classified as true by Politifact.

If we are holding this up as some sort of gold standard in peoples ability to tell the truth, then Gary Johnson is a huge liar.... 57% of his comments are half true, mostly false, or false.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/gary-johnson/

And Washington Post fact checker? The L.A times? They would publish pro Isis propaganda before posting pro Trump articles.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2016 01:13 AM by Rush87.)
09-27-2016 01:10 AM
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Post: #173
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
Your articles have been fact checked and they are:

Garbage.

Politifact is a shill website. Three times more likely to rate Republicans as liars than Democrats, or something like that.

This article calls the birther thing a lie by My. Trump, when it was not.

Troll article.

Troll = Confirmed

Troll

Siding with the media after what they did to Ron Paul for years?

You're worse than Ted Cruz coming over after we obliterated his wife!

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09-27-2016 01:12 AM
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Post: #174
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 01:05 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  
(09-27-2016 12:55 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  Okay cool. If this happens so often, please point out 10 examples of his policy flip flops from last week to this week. Should be easy right?
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-po...story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...-combined/

Just as I suspected from a self-professed high IQ individual, a link to Politifact (doesn't address your point and they are heavily liberal-leaning), a link to the Washington Post referencing the same Politifact (which analyzes the validity of statements, not focused on contradicting statements, and does it disingenuously), and a link to an LA Times article (another heavily liberal-leaning source) which points out things that are demonstrably false such as his position on the Iraq war (not having a concrete position, then becoming more concrete on the matter prior to the war, and flip flopping are two entirely different things). The LA Times article then goes on to point to Politifact again!

Every single link you posted was based on Politifact, incredible.

Your support is so weak and off the topic YOU chose, it makes most denied Wikipedia edits look well-sourced.

The only reason people ask you to move on is because your arguments are not well informed or well reasoned. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

EDIT: Speaking of which, check out his post back in the thread he said he was leaving after being asked to leave:

(09-27-2016 01:13 AM)BrewDog Wrote:  If I get banned because I'm a libertarian and support Gary Johnson for President, then I guess you guys win.

Here's your liar report.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-po...story.html

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...-combined/

Forum meltdown imminent!

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(This post was last modified: 09-27-2016 01:21 AM by AneroidOcean.)
09-27-2016 01:14 AM
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BrewDog Offline
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Posts: 1,258
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Post: #175
RE: Libertarian Party discussion
(09-27-2016 01:07 AM)Slim Shady Wrote:  What are you thoughts on Nigel Farage and Brexit?
I liked Nigel. I was rooting for him.

And the day of the Brexit vote, I was pinned to the computer watching the news unfold. I'm not sure why I was so fascinated by Brexit other than I hoped the UK would break away from the EU. I like sovereignty. I like the English, even though they can be huge dicks, I like them much. I love liberty. And I didn't think they had liberty under the EU.

And no, it's not my business no more than I think it's the Brits' business when they comment on our gun laws. But I was still rooting for Brexit.
09-27-2016 01:19 AM
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