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Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
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Dalaran1991 Offline
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Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Couldn't find anything on the topic. Ad please move if beating dead horse.

I'm considering taking a serious no-nonsense combat system, either Muay Thai or Krav. And I need to choose a focus.

As far as I understand, you can either be strong/tough/big OR be fast/agile. It's very hard to be both unless you are a professional athlete, which I am not.

I'm a small but properly built guy at 135lbs. The way I see it, I can focus on speed and agility which should already be my advantage. Being able to see and react to a blow before it lands is important, as in being able to dish out blows quicker = more blows.

The thing is, an opponent who is slower, but stronger and tougher, can easily take a few beatings, but if he manages to land even one blow that would be fatal. What's more, if you are in grappling range, (assuming equal skills) sheer brute force and muscle density would win over. And almost all fights finishes in close range.

It's like a dagger vs a two handed maul. One who can dish out a dozen jabs in a few secs, other is slow and cumbersome but can smash blocks.

As to power itself, force = mass x velocity*2, so it seems developping speed is yields more return on investment than mass.

Would like to hear people's opinion on the matter.

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(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 10:42 AM by Dalaran1991.)
03-18-2016 10:40 AM
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Travesty Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Jelqing.
03-18-2016 11:08 AM
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Post: #3
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
I think you could improve both at the same time but you would need to structure your training correctly to do that. Look into completehumanperformance. They help guys who want to lift and be strong but also compete in endurance events. They have some good free articles on there which may give you an idea about how you want to go about things. Its definitely possible to achieve in my opinion.
03-18-2016 11:38 AM
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Paging H1N1...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety- Benjamin Franklin, as if you didn't know...
03-18-2016 11:47 AM
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Post: #5
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
One of the keys to combat (warfare) is applying the various principles of Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of Force, Maneuver, Unity of Command (Unity of Effort), Security, Surprise, Simplicity, and in joint operations at Restraint, Perseverance, Legitimacy, it is the application of these principles in the right place at the right time that makes them most effective. Feedback and evaluation brings these principles together.

Consider the addition of the Russian practice of Systema to your list. I find after 45 years of practice that the Shaolin Kung Fu (Kuoshu-combining Northern Fist and Southern Fist) Tradition is versatile as it also includes Chin-na for the ground as well as various internal practices.
03-18-2016 01:05 PM
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ScrapperTL Offline
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Yo man, my opinion is you should do Martial Arts to build your confidence, to compete and for enjoyment as a hobby.

Do not rely on it to save your life, or to make you think you can beat up people who have 100lbs on you.

If you live in a dangerous area or have people threatening you, either A) Move or B) Concealed Carry Permit + Gun

I loved training Judo as a teenager but I would never expect that shit to save my life in the Streets.

Imagine Conor McGregor vs. two or three White Knight fatties (250+ lbs)
Even with all his skills and physical aptitude, he is still gonna get destroyed.
03-18-2016 01:43 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Size still matters. Some have the natural ability to get big (not fat big as in muscles), others of us do not and we have speed/quickness and some have neither. On one of the other threads, someone was asking about how to fight a guy that was bigger. Yoda, I mean H1N1, commented that size matters. I think it was the martial arts thread-it was recent so try searching. (edit: for you OP since you are a solid member https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-49020-page-7.html around post 171. If you keep reading you will find my random question about fighting 2 guys).

Train for the confidence and to protect yourself.

My walking around weight is 180 and have been told I have fast and heavy hands. Doesn't mean anything in real life, I should never try to find out if those compliments are true.

But training is lots of fun and there is much reward in progressing in any chosen form of SELF DEFENSE.

Edit: Speed is nice but timing is more important in my limited experience. And that requires experience. You might be fast and peppering some big guy but he figures you got and connects as you step in, if he does it right - you are done.

Also, I appreciate the math about speed and power, but don't forget an experienced fighter knows how to defend, how to keep his guard up. I speak only from my boxing experience but all that math doesn't do much if the guy turns his shoulder and you land somewhere where the damage is heavily mitigated.

If you are doing something that involves some form of grappling, you risk the chance that a much bigger guy will grab you. A lot of striking power comes from twisting the hips and dropping your weight, you can't do much of that if some big guy has you in some bear hug and then slams you to the ground.

OP, I always appreciate your posts, I wasn't trying to be mean, just trying to share some thoughts. I have done similar analysis, even asked one time about how to handle 2 guys - it was just a thought I had that day.

No one should ever think they could beat someone up, it is a bit of hubris. I have been there in my stupid moments.

I do think every guy should think "I can handle myself" - which to me is more about self defense and protecting oneself. And work toward getting to that place.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

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(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 01:59 PM by samsamsam.)
03-18-2016 01:46 PM
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kaotic Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
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03-18-2016 01:51 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
From the wise one.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-49020...pid1235257

(03-01-2016 09:32 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  I lived with a brown belt in BJJ who had won several major international open competitions, and who went on to fight pro. We used to spar most evenings in an empty room in our flat. He was 5'7 and 150lbs, I am 6'1 and about 195lbs. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times my friend was able to submit me in two years. Being much bigger negates a lot of skill and technique, especially if the bigger guy is strong, aggressive and well conditioned.

For sparring purposes it is a useful opportunity to work on your strategy for beating up bigger guys - soften them up with good body work in standup, then when their conditioning is compromised, take them down and submit them.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

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(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 02:00 PM by samsamsam.)
03-18-2016 02:00 PM
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H1N1 Offline
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
First, you need to define what you mean by 'combat'. I don't think you are sure in your own mind, because the options you list are Muai Thai and Krav, one of which is a sport fighting set of rules, the other ranges all the way from SF viable techniques to something taught to overweight mothers to help them pass the time and fight off the non-existant threat of rape (their doughyness being by far the most telling deterrent).

Second, you say 'you can either be strong/tough/big OR be fast/agile'. This is not really true for sporting applications or real world violence. For sports, these qualities exist for all of us on a sliding scale, and you can build your game (and it is a game, which makes it decidedly not combat) around various strengths and weaknesses. For real world violence it is much simpler in many respects - fundamentally you either have a predator's mindset or a victim's mindset. At 135lbs in an unarmed tussle, you're probably going to take a beating in most situations. People like to talk about little guys beating big guys through superior skill, but it's almost always a little guy telling you about 'this one time...'.

The only way this isn't true is if you have the right mind-state, which is that you're the meanest motherfucker on the face of the earth. For real world violence this is how the little guy (or any guy) wins consistently. You have to be prepared to bite a man's eyelids off, squeeze his balls till they burst in your hand, brain him with an ash tray, etc,etc,etc. The point is, you win real violence by being the one most willing to do brutal/lethal damage. You know how a 135lb guy beats a 225lb guy who is making trouble? You shut down the circulatory, respiratory, or nervous system, causing death or serious injury, and you use a knife or blunt object, a 'force multiplier' if you will, to achieve the desired outcome.

This is why I preach the importance of being polite to everyone, and not letting your ego get you into trouble. That way if someone really won't let it go, you are in a position where your choices are simple. People get into trouble because they let themselves get into a reactive cycle, whereby the behaviour of the guy in front of them dictates how they conduct themselves. You unwittingly become the supplicant. Smile, be polite, hold their gaze and say nothing, it doesn't really matter so long as you maintain your frame. Do not allow yourself to be forced into acting out or being stupid.

If you are talking about 'real-world' violence, then my very basic checklist would look a bit like this:

- Take up a combat sport with full contact striking which you can spar regularly in. This will toughen you up, give you some confidence, teach you to take a punch, not freak out like it's the end of the world, and throw something back, and how to handle adrenaline - all good things for real-world conflict.

- The main point of combatives is that you learn techniques for all stages of the fight. A viable sport fighting combination that would give you much the same effect would be boxing/muai thai + catch wrestling/judo/BJJ. I don't actually like 'MMA' gyms for this generally, as they tend to underemphasise standup work (as evidenced by the frankly horrendous striking ability of 90% of MMA fighters).

- Try to visualise scenarios, and how you will respond, when you are sitting at home or walking the dog. The point of this is twofold - it prepares you for handling that confrontation, but it also, perhaps more importantly, allows you to develop common principles for how you will handle aggression, and where your point of action will be.

- Related to the last point, every man must decide for himself where is point of action will be. Know that there are legal consequences for many actions you may reasonably want to take, and decide which consequences you can make peace with. (Example: I will not personally accept anyone getting in my face. Noone has any reason to be within 2 feet of me. I may step back or push them away, or I may lay them out, depending on the circumstances - but the important point is that once that 2ft barrier is breached, I am taking appropriate action).

- Again related to the above, you may wish to carry a weapon on you, legal or otherwise. You may prefer one risk (getting caught) to another (getting beaten/killed)

- Grow up. This applies to all of us to varying degrees. Don't let your ego get you hurt, or force you to make life altering decisions. Be polite, be kind, but be firm. If you can tread this line you will not find yourself faced with violence very often, and when you are it will make things that much simpler. It is much easier to defend yourself in court when any witnesses will tell the jury that you were polite, reasonable and tried to diffuse the situation. It plays much better with self-defense.

- Equally, have principles - know what you are willing to get hurt for. There is a difference between a guy acting up in a bar who has had a few too many drinks, and someone being deliberately aggressive and disrespectful. I'll walk away from the first guy, but the second guy is going to learn some manners in a hurry.

- Finally, accept that if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to be the meanest dude in the fight, you're probably going to lose. All the skill in the world won't save you if you lack the resolve. There are guys who are great fighters in a ring who'd get their limbs pulled off them like the wings off flies by guys with very little sport fighting experience, but who have the capacity and determination to do extraordinary harm.
03-18-2016 02:04 PM
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samsamsam Offline
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-18-2016 02:04 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  First, you need to define what you mean by 'combat'. I don't think you are sure in your own mind, because the options you list are Muai Thai and Krav, one of which is a sport fighting set of rules, the other ranges all the way from SF viable techniques to something taught to overweight mothers to help them pass the time and fight off the non-existant threat of rape (their doughyness being by far the most telling deterrent).

Second, you say 'you can either be strong/tough/big OR be fast/agile'. This is not really true for sporting applications or real world violence. For sports, these qualities exist for all of us on a sliding scale, and you can build your game (and it is a game, which makes it decidedly not combat) around various strengths and weaknesses. For real world violence it is much simpler in many respects - fundamentally you either have a predator's mindset or a victim's mindset. At 135lbs in an unarmed tussle, you're probably going to take a beating in most situations. People like to talk about little guys beating big guys through superior skill, but it's almost always a little guy telling you about 'this one time...'.

The only way this isn't true is if you have the right mind-state, which is that you're the meanest motherfucker on the face of the earth. For real world violence this is how the little guy (or any guy) wins consistently. You have to be prepared to bite a man's eyelids off, squeeze his balls till they burst in your hand, brain him with an ash tray, etc,etc,etc. The point is, you win real violence by being the one most willing to do brutal/lethal damage. You know how a 135lb guy beats a 225lb guy who is making trouble? You shut down the circulatory, respiratory, or nervous system, causing death or serious injury, and you use a knife or blunt object, a 'force multiplier' if you will, to achieve the desired outcome.

This is why I preach the importance of being polite to everyone, and not letting your ego get you into trouble. That way if someone really won't let it go, you are in a position where your choices are simple. People get into trouble because they let themselves get into a reactive cycle, whereby the behaviour of the guy in front of them dictates how they conduct themselves. You unwittingly become the supplicant. Smile, be polite, hold their gaze and say nothing, it doesn't really matter so long as you maintain your frame. Do not allow yourself to be forced into acting out or being stupid.

If you are talking about 'real-world' violence, then my very basic checklist would look a bit like this:

- Take up a combat sport with full contact striking which you can spar regularly in. This will toughen you up, give you some confidence, teach you to take a punch, not freak out like it's the end of the world, and throw something back, and how to handle adrenaline - all good things for real-world conflict.

- The main point of combatives is that you learn techniques for all stages of the fight. A viable sport fighting combination that would give you much the same effect would be boxing/muai thai + catch wrestling/judo/BJJ. I don't actually like 'MMA' gyms for this generally, as they tend to underemphasise standup work (as evidenced by the frankly horrendous striking ability of 90% of MMA fighters).

- Try to visualise scenarios, and how you will respond, when you are sitting at home or walking the dog. The point of this is twofold - it prepares you for handling that confrontation, but it also, perhaps more importantly, allows you to develop common principles for how you will handle aggression, and where your point of action will be.

- Related to the last point, every man must decide for himself where is point of action will be. Know that there are legal consequences for many actions you may reasonably want to take, and decide which consequences you can make peace with. (Example: I will not personally accept anyone getting in my face. Noone has any reason to be within 2 feet of me. I may step back or push them away, or I may lay them out, depending on the circumstances - but the important point is that once that 2ft barrier is breached, I am taking appropriate action).

- Again related to the above, you may wish to carry a weapon on you, legal or otherwise. You may prefer one risk (getting caught) to another (getting beaten/killed)

- Grow up. This applies to all of us to varying degrees. Don't let your ego get you hurt, or force you to make life altering decisions. Be polite, be kind, but be firm. If you can tread this line you will not find yourself faced with violence very often, and when you are it will make things that much simpler. It is much easier to defend yourself in court when any witnesses will tell the jury that you were polite, reasonable and tried to diffuse the situation. It plays much better with self-defense.

- Equally, have principles - know what you are willing to get hurt for. There is a difference between a guy acting up in a bar who has had a few too many drinks, and someone being deliberately aggressive and disrespectful. I'll walk away from the first guy, but the second guy is going to learn some manners in a hurry.

- Finally, accept that if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to be the meanest dude in the fight, you're probably going to lose. All the skill in the world won't save you if you lack the resolve. There are guys who are great fighters in a ring who'd get their limbs pulled off them like the wings off flies by guys with very little sport fighting experience, but who have the capacity and determination to do extraordinary harm.

Post Of The Day

I know I quoted all of it - but that was great stuff.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 02:07 PM by samsamsam.)
03-18-2016 02:06 PM
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Rush87 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
[Image: why-not-both.jpg]

The best fighters in the world strive for a mix of both. A HW destroys a LW every time [In a professional context]. Size won't hurt speed to a point. The best case scenario for you is to work on your skill and aim to get as big as possible, especially when you're relatively small to begin with and your goals are self defence.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 02:41 PM by Rush87.)
03-18-2016 02:40 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
I don't see why both aren't possible. Obviously don't take a crossfit approach and train for everything under the sun in the same session,but with intelligent programing you can have good fighting skills,mobility,agility,strength,power,and mass.

You aren't gonna get them all at the same time,and its not gonna be 4 sessions 1 hour a week,but its not like going for a more well rounded approach to training your body is going to require you make training a full time job.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2016 05:06 PM by SteezeySteve.)
03-18-2016 05:01 PM
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Good stuff H1N1. A lot of wisdom I never even thought about.

Luckily I've never been in a fight and I'd like to keep it that way, though a lot of what you said strikes me as knowledge every man should own.

In my life I did experience a few 'almost fight' situations (all of which like you said fueled by alcohol) but to be honest I never was the guy hitting someone. Either I took a punch (occured twice and I found I can take more that I was aware of, the other few times I blocked them) and brushed it off before walking away, or I just instantly walked away if the situation let me (without turning my back towards the guy).

It never got that far that I felt my health was at serious risk and there was no other option thn fight in order to defend myself. However your post did open my eyes that there might be a moment where fighting is the only option, so I'd better be prepared.

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03-18-2016 07:52 PM
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-18-2016 07:52 PM)Stimulus Wrote:  Good stuff H1N1. A lot of wisdom I never even thought about.

Luckily I've never been in a fight and I'd like to keep it that way, though a lot of what you said strikes me as knowledge every man should own.

In my life I did experience a few 'almost fight' situations (all of which like you said fueled by alcohol) but to be honest I never was the guy hitting someone. Either I took a punch (occured twice and I found I can take more that I was aware of, the other few times I blocked them) and brushed it off before walking away, or I just instantly walked away if the situation let me (without turning my back towards the guy).

It never got that far that I felt my health was at serious risk and there was no other option thn fight in order to defend myself. However your post did open my eyes that there might be a moment where fighting is the only option, so I'd better be prepared.

I think it is very important to do some real soul searching with this sort of stuff, to try to understand who you are fundamentally and how certain things will affect you. For example, one of the things people who've been preyed upon will often tell you is how ashamed they are, and how that shame is still raw long after physical wounds have healed.

What one person can shake off will consume another. Personally, one reason that I try very hard to be polite at all times is because I know how much people being disrespectful is going to push my buttons. It is as much to protect other people from themselves that I make a real effort not to put them in a position where they are encouraged to get smart.
03-19-2016 06:11 AM
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Post: #16
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
Damn this forum always deliver! Special thanks to samx3 and H1N1! Your experience is much valued.

H1N1 I gotta think about your post then come back later once I sleep on it.

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03-19-2016 06:14 AM
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RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-19-2016 06:11 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  
(03-18-2016 07:52 PM)Stimulus Wrote:  Good stuff H1N1. A lot of wisdom I never even thought about.

Luckily I've never been in a fight and I'd like to keep it that way, though a lot of what you said strikes me as knowledge every man should own.

In my life I did experience a few 'almost fight' situations (all of which like you said fueled by alcohol) but to be honest I never was the guy hitting someone. Either I took a punch (occured twice and I found I can take more that I was aware of, the other few times I blocked them) and brushed it off before walking away, or I just instantly walked away if the situation let me (without turning my back towards the guy).

It never got that far that I felt my health was at serious risk and there was no other option thn fight in order to defend myself. However your post did open my eyes that there might be a moment where fighting is the only option, so I'd better be prepared.

I think it is very important to do some real soul searching with this sort of stuff, to try to understand who you are fundamentally and how certain things will affect you. For example, one of the things people who've been preyed upon will often tell you is how ashamed they are, and how that shame is still raw long after physical wounds have healed.

What one person can shake off will consume another. Personally, one reason that I try very hard to be polite at all times is because I know how much people being disrespectful is going to push my buttons. It is as much to protect other people from themselves that I make a real effort not to put them in a position where they are encouraged to get smart.

Well I know I'm not the fighting kind of guy. Some will say I'm not a real man because of it but for me getting into a fight just isn't worth the possible consequenses, I certainly don't feel ashamed because of that.

As said before, the stakes were never high enough for me to cross that line. Maybe I'll go all bezerk when it does happen and your post made me realize that in case a situation like that may occur, I'd better be prepared, mentally aswell as physically.

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Easy bro - pull out and cum in your hand. Then shove that cum in your mouth and swallow to avoid losing your vitality or lowering your T. - Yardog
03-19-2016 08:11 AM
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Post: #18
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
I'm not saying this to be disparaging, but 135 lbs. is quite small when considering the implications of real world/street fighting. Even with the best training in the world, at that size you're always going to be vulnerable to getting manhandled by bigger/stronger guys. With the popularity of MMA in recent years there's been a resurgence in this belief that training and martial arts skill easily trump size and strength, but it's not always true (in fact, I'd say it's usually not true). There's a reason combat sports have weight classes. Jose Aldo vs. Brock Lesnar would not be pretty. It would be sheer brutality, more of a mugging than a prize fight. Technique can only overcome a limited weight and size differential, and speed only matters if you have sufficient power behind it to make it count.

To be frank, I think you should disabuse yourself of the notion of becoming a skilled real-world fighter entirely. If you want to train martial arts and spar in the gym or even take amateur fights then by all means do so. But don't get involved with martial arts thinking that it's going to turn you into a dangerous street fighter. Fighting on the street is extremely dangerous, unpredictable and legally risky. I am over 200 lbs. and used to box, and have no interest in getting into street fights these days. If I was 135 lbs. I would be even less inclined to do so. I know it's not fun being told you shouldn't do something, but I'm being very honest here for your own good. You don't realize the damage that can result from a huge size and strength disparity, and at 135 lbs. you're on the wrong side of that equation. You do not want to be that guy who gets a huge ego after a couple of years of training, gets mouthy at the wrong time, winds up eating a sucker punch then gets his face stomped into the ground.

Street fighting is like gambling: the longer you do it, the more likely you are to lose everything. There is always a bigger, badder, meaner guy with nothing to lose out there. And you never know when you're gonna run into him on the wrong day. Or worse, him and his friends who you didn't notice until it's too late. It's really not worth it. If you're honestly facing the likelihood of getting into street fights you should reevaluate your life. Where are you living? Why are you hanging out in such dangerous places? Are you interacting with people in such a way that the risk of violence is increased? It's just not worth it. You don't realize how precious your health is until it's taken from you. Guys lose eyeballs and entire rows of teeth in street fights. Some guys get stomped or hit their head on the ground the wrong way and end up with lasting brain damage. I know a guy who WON a street fight and nearly had his hand amputated after cutting it on the other guy's tooth and getting a nasty infection. I know guys who have "won" fights and then faced lawsuits and legal problems. All of these things happen in a matter of seconds. Your entire life can be turned upside down simply because you chose to escalate a situation (and/or needlessly put yourself in a situation you shouldn't have been in in the first place) simply for the sake of ego. It's really not worth it.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
03-19-2016 08:40 AM
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Post: #19
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-18-2016 02:04 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  - Finally, accept that if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to be the meanest dude in the fight, you're probably going to lose. All the skill in the world won't save you if you lack the resolve. There are guys who are great fighters in a ring who'd get their limbs pulled off them like the wings off flies by guys with very little sport fighting experience, but who have the capacity and determination to do extraordinary harm.

Fantastic post H1N1, but I have a question for you. I box, but the mind set you have written about in the section that I have quoted is not one that I currently posses. For me, the ring is fine, but I hate confrontations in street, bar or anywhere like that. I'm not a violent person and have no interest in being involved in street fights. But I know that's it's in my interest to posses this mind set as I'm sure I will need it eventually. How do I got about acquiring it?
03-19-2016 09:17 AM
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Dalaran1991 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-19-2016 08:40 AM)scorpion Wrote:  I'm not saying this to be disparaging, but 135 lbs. is quite small when considering the implications of real world/street fighting. Even with the best training in the world, at that size you're always going to be vulnerable to getting manhandled by bigger/stronger guys. With the popularity of MMA in recent years there's been a resurgence in this belief that training and martial arts skill easily trump size and strength, but it's not always true (in fact, I'd say it's usually not true). There's a reason combat sports have weight classes. Jose Aldo vs. Brock Lesnar would not be pretty. It would be sheer brutality, more of a mugging than a prize fight. Technique can only overcome a limited weight and size differential, and speed only matters if you have sufficient power behind it to make it count.

To be frank, I think you should disabuse yourself of the notion of becoming a skilled real-world fighter entirely. If you want to train martial arts and spar in the gym or even take amateur fights then by all means do so. But don't get involved with martial arts thinking that it's going to turn you into a dangerous street fighter. Fighting on the street is extremely dangerous, unpredictable and legally risky. I am over 200 lbs. and used to box, and have no interest in getting into street fights these days. If I was 135 lbs. I would be even less inclined to do so. I know it's not fun being told you shouldn't do something, but I'm being very honest here for your own good. You don't realize the damage that can result from a huge size and strength disparity, and at 135 lbs. you're on the wrong side of that equation. You do not want to be that guy who gets a huge ego after a couple of years of training, gets mouthy at the wrong time, winds up eating a sucker punch then gets his face stomped into the ground.

Street fighting is like gambling: the longer you do it, the more likely you are to lose everything. There is always a bigger, badder, meaner guy with nothing to lose out there. And you never know when you're gonna run into him on the wrong day. Or worse, him and his friends who you didn't notice until it's too late. It's really not worth it. If you're honestly facing the likelihood of getting into street fights you should reevaluate your life. Where are you living? Why are you hanging out in such dangerous places? Are you interacting with people in such a way that the risk of violence is increased? It's just not worth it. You don't realize how precious your health is until it's taken from you. Guys lose eyeballs and entire rows of teeth in street fights. Some guys get stomped or hit their head on the ground the wrong way and end up with lasting brain damage. I know a guy who WON a street fight and nearly had his hand amputated after cutting it on the other guy's tooth and getting a nasty infection. I know guys who have "won" fights and then faced lawsuits and legal problems. All of these things happen in a matter of seconds. Your entire life can be turned upside down simply because you chose to escalate a situation (and/or needlessly put yourself in a situation you shouldn't have been in in the first place) simply for the sake of ego. It's really not worth it.

Great post Scorpion thanks!

Shoulda add a disclaimer: I'm in no way trying to become a streetfighter, or even trying to get into any fight. In fact I try to avoid fighting as much as could be avoided because of the same reasons H1N1 stated. Fights are fucking messy and even if you win, you get legal shit thrown at you. As a white collar worker there's no way this benefit me.

I started the thread to get some advice to focus my training and got tons of it, I'm happy. But I'm not preparing to do some unarmed honor killing or zombie survival stuff. If things do get ugly, arm yourself, simple as that.

So many martial arts nowadays are so much bullshit, I've seen it and known people who train in them. So I want to make sure if I do spend time training I better learn something useful.

Ass or cash, nobody rides for free - WestIndiArchie
03-19-2016 09:23 AM
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Post: #21
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
I do lift and later I did some boxing. Just sparring but because of my weight I always had to spar with guys that are taller and heavier then me. Size matters. When my trainer put some of the younger guys that are my high but about 10 to 15 kg less to me they had some struggles. Even when they are the better boxers.

The guy I train no just got from 60 to 75 kg with weights. His life did change a lot since then. Now we to fighting as well. You can do both to a certain level, of course when you want to become a pro you have to give up one thing or reduce it dramatical. But lift and train how to fight will rise your confidence. Gain muscles is a big confident buster, small people can't imagine it. Furthermore when you are bigger, lees people try to challenge you. When you then also learn some fighting basic, you feel even more confident. But most important thing is the attitude. Your attitude is responsible if you get into a fight or not in most cases.

You can lift twice and train fighting three times per week. If you don't do anything, just start with one and after some months, when you get used to it add the second slowly.

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And if we have to go alone
We'll go alone with pride


For us, these conflicts can be resolved by appeal to the deeply ingrained higher principle embodied in the law, that individuals have the right (within defined limits) to choose how to live. But this Western notion of individualism and tolerance is by no means a conception in all cultures. - Theodore Dalrymple
03-19-2016 12:59 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-19-2016 06:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Damn this forum always deliver! Special thanks to samx3 and H1N1! Your experience is much valued.

H1N1 I gotta think about your post then come back later once I sleep on it.

With all respect OP, much of what I have learned is from H1N1 who has taken time to write to me in PMs also. It would be inappropriate to mention me in the same sentence. Other people that need to be acknowledged would be Giovanny, CrashBangWallop, AnonymousBosch and the other fine gents that reside on this forum.

2 years ago I never took any self defense type training. This forum planted the seed and I am forever grateful.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

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03-19-2016 03:13 PM
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Kieran Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-19-2016 06:11 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  
(03-18-2016 07:52 PM)Stimulus Wrote:  Good stuff H1N1. A lot of wisdom I never even thought about.

Luckily I've never been in a fight and I'd like to keep it that way, though a lot of what you said strikes me as knowledge every man should own.

In my life I did experience a few 'almost fight' situations (all of which like you said fueled by alcohol) but to be honest I never was the guy hitting someone. Either I took a punch (occured twice and I found I can take more that I was aware of, the other few times I blocked them) and brushed it off before walking away, or I just instantly walked away if the situation let me (without turning my back towards the guy).

It never got that far that I felt my health was at serious risk and there was no other option thn fight in order to defend myself. However your post did open my eyes that there might be a moment where fighting is the only option, so I'd better be prepared.

I think it is very important to do some real soul searching with this sort of stuff, to try to understand who you are fundamentally and how certain things will affect you. For example, one of the things people who've been preyed upon will often tell you is how ashamed they are, and how that shame is still raw long after physical wounds have healed.

What one person can shake off will consume another. Personally, one reason that I try very hard to be polite at all times is because I know how much people being disrespectful is going to push my buttons. It is as much to protect other people from themselves that I make a real effort not to put them in a position where they are encouraged to get smart.

I'm also polite to a fault, because I have a very short fuse. Strangely, I think this leads to me being even more volatile, because in my mind it's worse when somebody disrespects me because of the lengths I go to to be polite. People really do take kindness for weakness. I have however, learned my lesson with age and learned to let things go.

On the OP, my opinion, which I've posted before, is that the time investment needed to get good at boxing (and other combat sports), just isn't worth it for the few occasions that the skill will be needed. I've had more than my fair share of street fights, and all of them could have been avoided. I wasn't the instigator, but I was happy to let things escalate out of pride.

Hardly being able to eat or sleep for months out of both guilt and fear of prison after one particularly stupid reaction woke me up quickly though (I never knew I was afraid of it until it was staring me in the face, because I thought I was hard). When I look back, every nose I've broken and tooth I've knocked out is still there on my conscience, even though I wasn't the one that started the altercations (I can still quite vividly remember the feeling).

Box for the sport, not for self defence.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2016 06:52 PM by Kieran.)
03-19-2016 06:48 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
OP Wrote:As to power itself, force = mass x velocity*2, so it seems developping speed is yields more return on investment than mass.

Not sure if anybody corrected you on this, but F = ma = .5m(v^2).
Power is actually just work over time, or P = (Force)*(change in position)/time = F*v .

That being said, I am not sure "power" in fighting is the literal definition of power from physics.

Supposing that is it the case, you could make power gains (in linear fashion) from increasing either force or velocity. Mass is basically capped. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to generate more force and velocity (at the same time) by just getting stronger.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2016 09:14 PM by Hades.)
03-19-2016 09:05 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Speed/Agility vs. Strength/Mass for combat?
(03-19-2016 06:48 PM)Kieran Wrote:  I'm also polite to a fault, because I have a very short fuse. Strangely, I think this leads to me being even more volatile, because in my mind it's worse when somebody disrespects me because of the lengths I go to to be polite. People really do take kindness for weakness. I have however, learned my lesson with age and learned to let things go.

I know my skills are a shadow of what yours are, but I also feel that way. I try very hard not to harm anyone in my actions and because of that, I have this weird belief that no one should do anything rude to me because I try so hard not to do it to others. In some way it makes it hard for me to let things slide if I am disrespected.

For example, if I was a criminal and lived among criminals, I don't think I would be offended if shit happened to me, it is the world I chose to live in. So it might be cost of doing business and I have to accept that. But because I am not a criminal, I firmly believe to punish excessively if a crime is performed against me. Granted I have been for the most part lucky and nothing bad has happened to me as far as crimes go.

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I am not saying I am in your category, you are highly trained. I am just connecting with your thought about because you try so hard not to cause and issue, it is maddening when people make shit worse, when you are trying to de-escalate.

I was also remiss in not mentioning your name in the list of people who have contributed to my growth in boxing.

Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."

Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

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(This post was last modified: 03-19-2016 09:57 PM by samsamsam.)
03-19-2016 09:56 PM
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