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Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
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Peregrine Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-08-2016 09:44 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  
(04-08-2016 09:33 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  
(04-08-2016 09:13 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Pretty much all of you guys are missing the point of what the OP is saying and going off on tangents.

Every time height is mentioned on this forum, usually in the game section, this happens.

I reckon the average height of RVFers is well below average.

My conclusion:

Malehamster

What was OP's point then? If it was "bigger guys are more intimidating than small guys in the first instance", of course they are. Water is also wet.

His thesis was "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you". To which I counter that size is a factor, but not the only factor or even the dominant factor.

He was talking about immediate, fleeting interactions.

First impressions, if you will.

How do you figure? If you can defend your reading of his post, I stand corrected. If we're talking about first impressions only, it's a mix of physical and style. That's all you have to go on in a first impression.
04-08-2016 09:59 AM
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Saweeep Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
Well his very first line, for a start:

"What about the way we are treated by other men, strangers, in all the various interactions throughout our days?"

This, to me, implies interactions without a social structure applied to them i.e being someone's boss.

He then goes on to pad out his theory. That's normally how theories are presented, no? The statement, then the theory?
04-08-2016 10:17 AM
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GlobalMan Away
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Post: #28
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-08-2016 09:44 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  
(04-08-2016 09:33 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  
(04-08-2016 09:13 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Pretty much all of you guys are missing the point of what the OP is saying and going off on tangents.

Every time height is mentioned on this forum, usually in the game section, this happens.

I reckon the average height of RVFers is well below average.

My conclusion:

Malehamster

What was OP's point then? If it was "bigger guys are more intimidating than small guys in the first instance", of course they are. Water is also wet.

His thesis was "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you". To which I counter that size is a factor, but not the only factor or even the dominant factor.

He was talking about immediate, fleeting interactions.

First impressions, if you will.

I think OP is mostly correct that physicality is the main determiner of how you'll size a up a man in an adversarial situation, how much you'll fear him.

But he extrapolates to say physical bulk determines "how much respect you will be given". That just isn't supported, not when talking about normal social interactions.

Americans are dreamers too
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2016 04:14 PM by GlobalMan.)
04-08-2016 04:07 PM
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Peregrine Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-08-2016 10:17 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Well his very first line, for a start:

"What about the way we are treated by other men, strangers, in all the various interactions throughout our days?"

This, to me, implies interactions without a social structure applied to them i.e being someone's boss.

He then goes on to pad out his theory. That's normally how theories are presented, no? The statement, then the theory?

But he didn't start with his thesis/theory. His first lines are an introduction, which set the stage for his thesis.

"Much time is often spent here trying to improve the way we are treated by women. What about the way we are treated by other men, strangers, in all the various interactions throughout our days?

Have you noticed the way some men are called "Sir" and others are referred to in diminuitives, such as "bud," "bro," or "pal." What about why some guys have their girlfriends hit on through social media, or even worse, in front of them? And how some guys always end up doing "bitch work" on the job, no matter how many times they switch companies.

This is a theory I've developed over the years, I'm posting in the hopes that commentary and critique will help refine it.

How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you."


His writing style is similar to the kind that is commonly taught in school - introductory paragraph with the essay's thesis placed at the final sentence of the first "paragraph". I maintain that the thesis is "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you."

--

I think it's more accurate to say that men treat other men based on their status within the group. Status is determined differently in different groups and is comprised of many components.
04-08-2016 05:33 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
@CrashBangWallop
Height and strength are factors. Height in particular. It does give extra gravitas. No real downside to it.

But the OP's ideas are weak and humble.

The stone age was not a boys' locker room with added murder.
Shamanic religion has been with us for a very long time, and poetry was originally considered a form of divine possession - "sing, heavenly muse."
The power to entrance with words is ancient and primal.

Imagine a prehistoric religious ritual, with beating drums and flute music, interrupted ("overshadowed") by someone taller and more muscular than the musical shaman.
How would the people look at the interloper? With eyes shining with admiration for his biceps?
Man cannot live on gainz alone.

Early kings and rulers performed religious rituals, and allied with the priestly caste. The priests had something the men who drank from skulls wanted.
The power to entrance and bewitch the people.
04-08-2016 06:06 PM
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cubanlinx Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
But then, if I met Obama today I'd probably address him as sir, even though I have very little respect for him.
Do I fear him? Personally not at all. I fear the power he wields.
04-08-2016 11:01 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
I agree physical size is a large determinant of getting respect at first impressions. I have a few friends that are tall with big frames and people seem to defer to them in social situations, and move out of their way when they walk to the bar etc. However, this isn't the only factor as there are plenty of big lads around that it's easy to see that they are soft. There's also certain quality you see around, and it can be in skinny / short people, where they just seem uninhibited, like loose cannons, and hard faced. Maybe it's posture, an aura, who knows but I know it when I see it and give them a wide berth.
04-09-2016 11:59 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
This is a very interesting subject. It's also something I've spent a bit of time on, trying to understand the deeper dynamics at work, when it comes to men on men interaction. Let's face it, for most of us, the extreme damage we do and the extreme damage we have done to us, is propagated by ourselves on each other, brothers, in all but name.

Man is a wolf unto man.

I agree with the findings of the OP, when he says that underlying the vast majority of our interactions, fear is a prime motivating factor, albeit unconscious in most cases. It's in the twitch of the eye, a gaze held for a second longer than usual, a gulp in the throat, body language etc. - these are all signifiers of dominance and submission. Of course there is much more to it than this, as AB pointed out in his retorts. But the OP has done a good job of thinking about a subject and coming to some conclusions, and he seems to be open to having his theory/hypothesis expounded upon.

Who can say what any of our super-motives are. We know that we need to eat and provide for our families. But why do we _really_ do what we do? The reason SJWs signal their virtue, is not for the most part that 'virtue is its own reward' (which it surely is), but more through fear of being ostracized and plain old shunning from the group. That and getting laid for being a sensitive, right thinking leftist male. Silly boys. One example of a 'super-motive' as Freud called it.

Why do I bring the concept of the super-motive up? Well, there's no easy way to say this, but I have been the worst and the weakest of men. In my later years, I have looked back on some of my actions and realised that they were not carried out through altruism, but through fear. Coming back to the OPs original point. I lied to myself. I was weak and a coward. I helped people, gave them my life blood and life time, because at the end of the day I did not have the balls to stand up to them and say NO. I don't know which is worse, being a coward, or lying to myself about it for so long.

So, this is just something to bear in mind with regards to the interaction between men. But as AB so eloquently furthered this discourse, there is so much more to it than fear. There is also virtue which gains a man respect. I think the OP was talking more about immediate reactions as has already been pointed out, but this is a very valid question that deserves a deeper answer.

This is where AB came in and stole the show again. Never afraid to admit a possible weakness in his structure, so he can shore it up and become stronger, never afraid to outright tell it like it is with his extraordinary tales of real life experiences (and be labelled a braggard, and be damned, by the more bitter and resentful), that man is an absolute inspiration to me. For his honesty, his ability to look deep within himself, and face himself, and his wonderful writing and sharing of his experiences. Oh, and for his virtue! I wouldn't like to come across the fella on the proverbial dark night. Then again, I'd probably prefer bumping into him, than his dearly departed 'psycho' friend. Thanks for sharing that story AB. We don't know each other and I hope you won't think me forward to say also, I am sorry for your loss.

I've known the odd person like your friend. Some were big and some were small. But hardly any of it was to do with size. Well, actually, the smaller they are, and the harder they hold that gaze, is directly proportional to the fear they will instill in the average man who is just being a bully, like those chumps that knew what was good for them and buggered off after your mate had a word with them.

Never pick on anyone, never start trouble. Because you lose the high ground in many ways, especially if you are being an arsehole. You might get the shock of your life when said skinny little bespectacled dude, gives you that look, the one that lets you know. Being honest, most people don't start trouble with someone who is almost a foot taller than them, especially if they are 2 foot wider as well.

Lots of good points made about taller guys not being so confrontational, and bigger guys being 'reputation building' magnets. Goes both ways and balances out to an extent. Realise both scenarios exist and adjust accordingly.

I've got a few tales to tell about Bikey 'mates' and experiences I have had. But I don't want to make an overly long post and ramble. I've never been part of that sub-culture, but I've only ever had good experiences with the bikers. Give respect, get it back, don't know your place in the pecking order? get 'learned'. Another day...


I would like to just share one experience I recently had though, in a local pub while I was waiting to get a bus home after having some dentistry done (hour and a half wait).

There was this one guy. He appeared out of nowhere from the other end of the room as I was walking out. I don't know what the hell it was about this guy, but he sent all of my receptors into overload, almost, such was his presence, or 'aura'. He was maybe six inches shorter than me. Not stockily or muscularly built. Not fat. Nothing like that. It was the way he moved. He scared the living shit out of me. Without even trying. One guy you would really not want to mess with. He didn't walk across the room, he _glided_. It was almost like he was floating on air. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Our paths were due to cross as we both entered the same space, as if it was the center of the chessboard where all the action takes place. What did he do? He walked out the way of me, giving me a very wide berth. Now this could be seen as submission if you wanted to read a lot into a probably trivial social situation, but it was anything but. It was sheer dominance, and it scared me even more than when I first put eyes on him. He'd got my measure too, and he knew me, as I knew him. He was not aggressive at all. This man was going to walk where he wanted how he wanted, and if he wanted to walk a wide berth around me, he was damned well going to.

He'd seen enough in his life to not need to prove anything with a guy just coz he was a few inches taller. This was a man that cared not for height. No use for it. He had everything he needed deep inside. Core strength, mental strength and enough anticipative nouse to know when someone was a threat or not. I believe he picked up on my fear, though I gave nothing away with my poker face.

This whole interchange took about 5/6 seconds by the way and shook me to my core. I even turned around when we passed each other to get a look at him (without being obvious of course) - who was that masked man?!

He he. One of the stranger experiences of my life, but totally pertinent to what the OP is trying to address here. And as always, I would be more than enraptured to hear AB's take on this, if any.

I thought about him later that evening, and tried to pin down just what the hell was so menacing about him. No eye contact, no bad smells, no hobo dress sense, no fashion victim dress sense. The guy was the proverbial gray man, totally neutral. He didn't even give off any bad vibes. In fact, if anything went down, he would be the first person in the room I would make a b-line for. I don't know if he served time, was a part time secret hit-man, possibly ex-services, or just someone that 'had it' through the school of hard knocks.

Just thought I'd share. I actually tried to formulate a coherent post to put something like this out there for discussion, but this thread and the answers so far have been very enlightening, so I'll just add this little bit.

I really would like to hear more thoughts on this though. Yes, height has a lot to do with it. Wideness as much again. Reputation, ditto. But this intangible thing - this sheer animal magnetism, be it repulsive or not - also fascinates me. Women go on about how hard done by they are by men, but as I said earlier: Man is a wolf unto man. We take out all our fears and our failed desires on each other. We are far more savage towards our brothers than our sisters (to use the biblical vernacular).

It's one thing to have to eat shit because you are a lowly intern with everything to gain and everything to lose in a new job, but it's another to have a man frighten you half to death in a few seconds by giving you a wide berth and not even deeming to make eye contact with you, apart from the split millisecond he took to sum you up and work you out. This is the avenue I would like to explore here, though that's not to say there couldn't be a lot learned from those that are a pushover in the workplace, but that kind of thing is more easily understood.

Oh and thanks again AB for the Bikeys reference. I found some interesting stuff on the net about the 1 percenters and the ranking within the organisation. Most fascinating. Your point about the sergeant-at-arms was well noted. I'm going to rep the OP and you for starting a quality thread and contributing to it, respectively.
04-09-2016 06:46 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-09-2016 11:59 AM)Kieran Wrote:  I agree physical size is a large determinant of getting respect at first impressions. I have a few friends that are tall with big frames and people seem to defer to them in social situations, and move out of their way when they walk to the bar etc. However, this isn't the only factor as there are plenty of big lads around that it's easy to see that they are soft. There's also certain quality you see around, and it can be in skinny / short people, where they just seem uninhibited, like loose cannons, and hard faced. Maybe it's posture, an aura, who knows but I know it when I see it and give them a wide berth.

Kieran. First of all, sorry I forgot to mention this post inspired mine. Got carried away as usual. But reading your post again reminded me of another situation I was in, when I spent a rare day back in South Wales.

By myself, just hanging around, drinking it all back in, getting drunk. Bumped into a couple, a bloke and a girl. The guy was a psycho. I didn't really care at the time. I just told him to tone it down.

He was going up to the biggest guy in the pub and giving him blatant attitude. I thought 'here we go'. I honestly thought someone was going to batter him. I do remember saying to him: Look, one day someone is going to call your bluff. He fronted some big guys but he did calm down a bit after I talked to him. He had one of his eyebrows missing and I only noticed after about 5 pints. I don't think he was going to beat anyone up he was so small, but he probably wouldn't have minded a beating either. Nutter. Welsh nutter.

I ended up getting a taxi back to the wrong place and getting picked up by a police car when I knocked on people's doors so I could call a taxi. But after drinking all day with this headcase, I was actually stone cold sober by 11PM and even had a coherent conversation with the cops who provided me a personal taxi service back to my residence. Couldn't have worked out better. Cheers.

I suppose the police are used to picking up on things like these, and they obviously saw me as no threat as they just asked me where I had been and what I had been up to, and I told them. They weren't questioning me even, just being curious. I really could have been an axe murderer, but getting back to the whole OP, they had some kind of measure of me. I don't know if it was respect. Gotta love south wales police. Cheers boys!

This guy that started the trouble was tiny by the way. Like 5 feet kind of tiny and very skinny. Jesus, that missing eyebrow...

Happy days.

I left town the next day.
04-09-2016 08:13 PM
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RedPillUK Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-08-2016 11:01 PM)cubanlinx Wrote:  But then, if I met Obama today I'd probably address him as sir, even though I have very little respect for him.
Do I fear him? Personally not at all. I fear the power he wields.

Nah, in this hypothetical situation you should grow a pair and call him Barry.
04-10-2016 06:41 AM
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Tapestry Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
I apologize for letting this thread lie dormant for a few weeks, but to clear up some confusion: the ideas in my original post are mostly describing encounters with strangers of loose acquaintances. The guy on the bus, in line behind you, the bartender, the store clerk, the rowdy sports fan. I acknowledge that once you actually develop a relationship with someone, be it in the workplace or a friendship, other factors come into play and others can indeed come to value the less than intimidating male. But the instant, visceral reaction of our many fleeting encounters -- and indeed these are the bulk of our human experiences, are dependent on such primordial factors.

If you still don't think this is the case, consider the phenomenon of road rage. Why will a meek and mild, sober shipping clerk, driving home, sipping a latte and listening to NPR have the gumption to flip off and rage against a random stranger who cuts him off on the highway? Because the physical and economic cues have been removed. The height, muscles, and status in the community are gone, replaced by a blurry face encased within a ton of steel, in essence making everyone on the road equal. People will put up with the jackass gangbanger on the bus; they will look the other way, pretend not to be annoyed, even exit and wait for the next bus, rather than confront him. Put the same people in the safety of their cars and see the sparks fly.

I am above all things, a realist. After years of whining about the way the world is, and the way people are, I finally decided to accept it. My takeaways and conclusions remain the same, although I do appreciate all of the input and discussion. You can't grow taller, but you can still do things to improve the way you are treated in life. Get physically big, get financially well off, and acquire power. Or choose not to do things, but then you must accept your lot and forfeit the right to complain when you are constantly treated as a second class human.
04-25-2016 01:18 PM
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Blobert Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
There's definitely much more than just height and muscle mass that determines whether someone's physically intimidating.

Look at Charles Bronson for example. He's not tall, 174cm according to internet, and when fully clothed you can't tell whether he's muscular or not. Yet he's got the look of a guy you would preferably not mess with. And not because he's known from movies to you - he was cast for tough guy roles for a reason. Or Joe Pesci. An effeminate fag face, even one bigger than them, does not command the same level of physical respect.

A (suspected) willingness to use violence is what's often more intimidating than the potential capacity to do so. How far you suspect you could push the other guy before things get violent, and what would happen if they do get violent (most people would want to avoid even a fight they could win, and you can't know who might be packing a pistol or knife).
I tread carefully around people I know are willing to do time for settling a minor offence. That of course, does not translate to me actually respecting them or wanting to interact with them any more than needed.
04-26-2016 11:51 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-26-2016 11:51 AM)Blobert Wrote:  There's definitely much more than just height and muscle mass that determines whether someone's physically intimidating.

Look at Charles Bronson for example. He's not tall, 174cm according to internet, and when fully clothed you can't tell whether he's muscular or not. Yet he's got the look of a guy you would preferably not mess with. And not because he's known from movies to you - he was cast for tough guy roles for a reason. Or Joe Pesci. An effeminate fag face, even one bigger than them, does not command the same level of physical respect.

A (suspected) willingness to use violence is what's often more intimidating than the potential capacity to do so. How far you suspect you could push the other guy before things get violent, and what would happen if they do get violent (most people would want to avoid even a fight they could win, and you can't know who might be packing a pistol or knife).
I tread carefully around people I know are willing to do time for settling a minor offence. That of course, does not translate to me actually respecting them or wanting to interact with them any more than needed.

Great post - there are certain individuals out there, where you can just "feel" their presence.
The willingness that if something "went down" they would take it "all the way" (kill or be killed)

They may not always be the tallest, the most muscular or the leanest (and sometimes they actually do possess many of those qualities) but you know them when your around them.

Possibly they may have sociopath, or psychopathic tendencies and our minds "pick up" on the physical body language cues that are subtlety being displayed.

A survival mechanism, your brain saying "stay away from this motherfucker he is crazy"

Coincidentally - these same cues may turn women into horny teenagers.
Possibly because the sociopath or psychopath can potentially become the Alpha Male by means other than genetics, like violence, intimidation, backstabbing and bullying.

The sad karma here is that these are typically the dudes that end up beating and/or killing their women.
Think OJ Simpson or Chris Brown - sociopath, psychopath, willing to kill to be Alpha Male - yet women desperately wanted to fuck them.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2016 12:08 PM by ScrapperTL.)
04-26-2016 12:04 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-26-2016 12:04 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  Coincidentally - these same cues may turn women into horny teenagers.
Possibly because the sociopath or psychopath can potentially become the Alpha Male by means other than genetics, like violence, intimidation, backstabbing and bullying.

What do you mean, by means other than genetics? Of course aggressiveness and bloodthirstiness are genetic traits as much as anything.


Also another note is that a lot of guys are also all bark but actually unwilling to follow through with their threats. Bluffing. If someone threatens to stab me over a petty argument, I can usually tell they won't do it - why threaten (ie. warn) me first if they actually planned it. Though I understand that if I were more intimidating myself in my physique and/or demeanor, these clowns wouldn't dare to test me like that.
04-26-2016 02:35 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-25-2016 01:18 PM)Tapestry Wrote:  I apologize for letting this thread lie dormant for a few weeks, but to clear up some confusion: the ideas in my original post are mostly describing encounters with strangers of loose acquaintances. The guy on the bus, in line behind you, the bartender, the store clerk, the rowdy sports fan. I acknowledge that once you actually develop a relationship with someone, be it in the workplace or a friendship, other factors come into play and others can indeed come to value the less than intimidating male. But the instant, visceral reaction of our many fleeting encounters -- and indeed these are the bulk of our human experiences, are dependent on such primordial factors.

If you still don't think this is the case, consider the phenomenon of road rage. Why will a meek and mild, sober shipping clerk, driving home, sipping a latte and listening to NPR have the gumption to flip off and rage against a random stranger who cuts him off on the highway? Because the physical and economic cues have been removed. The height, muscles, and status in the community are gone, replaced by a blurry face encased within a ton of steel, in essence making everyone on the road equal. People will put up with the jackass gangbanger on the bus; they will look the other way, pretend not to be annoyed, even exit and wait for the next bus, rather than confront him. Put the same people in the safety of their cars and see the sparks fly.

I am above all things, a realist. After years of whining about the way the world is, and the way people are, I finally decided to accept it. My takeaways and conclusions remain the same, although I do appreciate all of the input and discussion. You can't grow taller, but you can still do things to improve the way you are treated in life. Get physically big, get financially well off, and acquire power. Or choose not to do things, but then you must accept your lot and forfeit the right to complain when you are constantly treated as a second class human.

People will put up with the jackass gangbanger on the bus (I changed seats on the subway yesterday so I wouldn't have my back facing a guy who was clearly a bit nuts and trying to pick a fight) irrespective of height or muscles, which runs counter to your thesis.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2016 04:53 PM by Peregrine.)
04-26-2016 04:52 PM
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RE: Social Theory: The Male Pecking Order
(04-25-2016 01:18 PM)Tapestry Wrote:  I apologize for letting this thread lie dormant for a few weeks, but to clear up some confusion: the ideas in my original post are mostly describing encounters with strangers of loose acquaintances. The guy on the bus, in line behind you, the bartender, the store clerk, the rowdy sports fan. I acknowledge that once you actually develop a relationship with someone, be it in the workplace or a friendship, other factors come into play and others can indeed come to value the less than intimidating male. But the instant, visceral reaction of our many fleeting encounters -- and indeed these are the bulk of our human experiences, are dependent on such primordial factors.

If you still don't think this is the case, consider the phenomenon of road rage. Why will a meek and mild, sober shipping clerk, driving home, sipping a latte and listening to NPR have the gumption to flip off and rage against a random stranger who cuts him off on the highway? Because the physical and economic cues have been removed. The height, muscles, and status in the community are gone, replaced by a blurry face encased within a ton of steel, in essence making everyone on the road equal. People will put up with the jackass gangbanger on the bus; they will look the other way, pretend not to be annoyed, even exit and wait for the next bus, rather than confront him. Put the same people in the safety of their cars and see the sparks fly.

I am above all things, a realist. After years of whining about the way the world is, and the way people are, I finally decided to accept it. My takeaways and conclusions remain the same, although I do appreciate all of the input and discussion. You can't grow taller, but you can still do things to improve the way you are treated in life. Get physically big, get financially well off, and acquire power. Or choose not to do things, but then you must accept your lot and forfeit the right to complain when you are constantly treated as a second class human.

It's a big subject.

And you have already exposed yourself! As have those that have responded to you. :-)

Don't pay too much mind to it.

Say a prayer. Keep your wits about you.

We all have our blind spots. And we all have our irrational fears.

Man is a wolf unto man.

There are many different levels to this. But I doubt those that have really experienced the full brunt of it will ever admit it or say anything at all.

It's an interesting subject. But the field shall lie fallow for a reason.
04-26-2016 05:30 PM
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