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Clomid for Testosterone
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kassad Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
Another interesting study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6035750/

The 5 alpha reductase inhibitor used here is dutasteride, which is stronger than finasteride (inhibits up to 99% of serum DHT instead of ~70%).

Very interesting to see the results of the 300mg/week testosterone group as the same serum testosterone/free testosterone numbers are achievable strting with a healthy T production and adding in 1mg of anastrozole/arimidex ED or 25mg of exemestane/aromasin ED. 5.8kg of lean mass gained in 20 weeks without exercise is rather impressive. This suggest that a simple standard dose AI and 5ARI duotheraphy could easily get one through a genetic plateau that seemed unbeatable without anabolic steroid use previously...

I'd like to point out that the study doesn't have estradiol numbers, so the dutasteride group probably has higher E2 numbers since no aromatase inhibition is used.

This wouldn't be so if instead of a testosterone base we used an AI base as TRT.

To contradict myself a bit from earlier:
one could actually choose to forego the expensive (and hard to acquire in some countries) E2 sensitive blood test if using only exemestane/aromasin and finasteride duotherapy as trt, as you are guaranteed to lower your E2 from baseline (by 60% on average) and least likely to oversuppress your E2 using this AI. So one could get along without the extra precise E2 numbers and get away with the immunoassay lab test or saliva test for free Test and DHT even if this is less than optimal. Based on the study above one could actually dial in the dosage of finasteride by the feel as well eventhough testing is much preferred.
06-20-2019 01:33 PM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #152
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
This study shows that the free test increase from 300mg/week test enanthate is lower than what 25mg aromasin ED produced in the exemestane study:

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1...81.6.E1172

That is quite something as the 300mg/week Test-E group gained 5.2kg of fat free mass in the 20 weeks.

I also have found a third and I think best option yet for non-steroidal OTC 5-alpha reductase inhibitor:

Oregon's Wild Harvest - Saw Palmetto Pygeum

It has all three clinically proven 5-AR ingredients (Nettle, Pygeum Africanum, SP ) dosed higher and is cheaper than the previous two products I have mentioned.

Should an OTC product it not be enough to combat acne and hairloss sides on it's own, but one doesn't want to take finasteride/dutasteride orally, it is still possible to use them topically both for hair and acne. If those two are unaccesible I also had success previously with 2% ketoconazole (which is also a proven to work steroidal 5-AR inhibitor) cream (for acne) and shampoo (for hair) which is basically the rx version of the OTC 1% Nizoral.
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2019 02:39 PM by kassad.)
06-25-2019 02:38 PM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #153
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
A further worthy supplement to consider to add to the stack besides boron is Tongkat Ali. TA is the only clinically proven herb to boost free testosterone at 400mg/day:

https://www.academia.edu/29357212/Tongka...ilot_Study

It is important to notice that it is supposed to work in another way than the SHBG lowering effect of boron or exemestane. 'The effects of tongkat ali in restoring normal testosterone levels appears to be less due to actually “stimulating” testosterone synthesis, but rather by increasing the release rate of “free”testosterone from its binding hormone, sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG)'. So it doesn't actually lower the amount of SHBG itslef, but probably binding to it competitively to testosterone, thus freeing up 32% more testosterone.

So Tongkat Ali at 400mg/day and boron at 10mg/day seem to be great a clinically proven candidates to add. Both driving up free testosterone through different routes. Note that there are no studies that use them in combination theraphy, so I have no idea how their cummulative effects should look like numbers wise. However driving up free test, they both are likely to drive up DHT (likely by a lower percentage than free test) and estradiol (likely by the same amount as free test) if used without 5-AR and aromatase inhibitors. So my recommendation would be using them together with the 5-AR inhibitory protocol in the above post. And exemestane/aromasin as the base compound. These four elements together are likely to let you produce well above the +100% free test and +70% total test exemestane alone produces on average (remember let's say you lower (via boron) and block (via TA) 30% of SHBG when total test is already up by 70% you are actually achieveng a plus 50% in free test instead of 30% - these won't be your exact numbers it's just the principle what I am trying to explain).
06-26-2019 11:37 AM
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m1jjj Offline
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Post: #154
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
So much knowledge in this thread. Thanks gents.

I've noticed Clomid gives me some unwanted side effects. I'm going to trial HCG for awhile and see what my "real" estrogen levels are and how it effects me.
07-10-2019 04:40 AM
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PixelFree Offline
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Post: #155
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
Hey guys - I haven't read the whole thing, but for a long time I've been meaning to post a thread about Clomid.

Long story short - I was on it for about a year, thinking how 'clever' I was that I found a way to boost my T and preserve my fertility.

I did it under the supervision of a Doctor, legally.

I was constantly modifying my dose, my E2 / Estradiol was going through the roof, massive mood swings and arguments that destroyed my engagement.

I added in Arimidex, DIM, stinging nettle I3C, the lot.

All in all it was a disaster and all a load of bullshit, including TRT (injections, gels) and HGH which I also tried again over a course of 24 months total via experienced Doctors in this area.

Don't do it - there are good resources out there to naturally increase your T, even for older guys (40, 50). The #1 thing is getting your body fat down to under 15% via intermittent fasting and getting your nutrition sorted by eating clean. There are no shortcuts here, and you can easily mess up your hormonal system and fertility and create a medical dependance for life with injections. Don't be fooled by this latest 'trend'.
07-10-2019 06:04 PM
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PixelFree Offline
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Post: #156
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
I'll add, the exception is obviously if you are genuinely low T, rather than a guy with normal T looking for an edge OR if you have already had your kids and don't care about your fertility then sure AND you are comfortable with life long injections (and I mean really comfortable - for 20+ years, not just 3 months worth), then go for it.

I forgot to add I also tried hCG.
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2019 12:14 AM by PixelFree.)
07-11-2019 12:13 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #157
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
The reason AIs didn't help your 'estrogen' problems is that they were caused by the estrogenic sides of clomid itself.

Have you tried an AI only? (either the Arimidex you mentioned or Aromasin, not the otc crap) Most people with normal T who are looking for an edge as you say, have wonderful results with a dose of quarter of a pill twice weekly, to half a pill twice weekly (this goes for either compound, the pill size is 1mg for Arimidex/Anastrozole and 25mg for Aromasin/Exemestane).
The getting down bodyfat in the low 10s is a very good advice, but it won't increase free test by +100%. The above WILL if you have properly functioning testes.
07-11-2019 12:35 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #158
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
HCG can be great for some applications (keeping fertility during TRT with the least amount is sides for example), but if it is an HCG only, for trying to increase a normal natural production than most guys will bump into the problem of the body overreacting towards either aromatization or 5AR. The HCG covers neither. So in this case you will need an AI on hand. And if you'll have an AI on hand already, why not do the AI only (or AI base) instead...
07-11-2019 12:42 AM
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PixelFree Offline
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Post: #159
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-11-2019 12:35 AM)kassad Wrote:  The reason AIs didn't help your 'estrogen' problems is that they were caused by the estrogenic sides of clomid itself.

Have you tried an AI only? (either the Arimidex you mentioned or Aromasin, not the otc crap) Most people with normal T who are looking for an edge as you say, have wonderful results with a dose of quarter of a pill twice weekly, to half a pill twice weekly (this goes for either compound, the pill size is 1mg for Arimidex/Anastrozole and 25mg for Aromasin/Exemestane).
The getting down bodyfat in the low 10s is a very good advice, but it won't increase free test by +100%. The above WILL if you have properly functioning testes.

Interesting information. Do you have any links or resources I could checkout on this AI monotherapy?
07-11-2019 07:33 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #160
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-11-2019 07:33 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  Interesting information. Do you have any links or resources I could checkout on this AI monotherapy?

From the top of my head this is the clinical study for exemestane (aromasin):
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88...51/2661508

The dose in the above study is one or two pills per day. You can find similarly dosed (one pill=1mg per day) studies for anastrozole (arimidex).

This article discusses that a much lower dose is sufficient for male hrt purposes than the above:
https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2...ne/Page-01

And if you read around on forums, you'll find that users doing blood tests can confirm the dosages I described above to be sufficient.
07-11-2019 02:49 PM
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camy9000 Offline
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Post: #161
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-11-2019 02:49 PM)kassad Wrote:  
(07-11-2019 07:33 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  Interesting information. Do you have any links or resources I could checkout on this AI monotherapy?

From the top of my head this is the clinical study for exemestane (aromasin):
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88...51/2661508

The dose in the above study is one or two pills per day. You can find similarly dosed (one pill=1mg per day) studies for anastrozole (arimidex).

This article discusses that a much lower dose is sufficient for male hrt purposes than the above:
https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2...ne/Page-01

And if you read around on forums, you'll find that users doing blood tests can confirm the dosages I described above to be sufficient.
would'nt 1 pill of day or aromasin crash your estrogen badly
how about proviron like even half a tab a day ?(12.5mg)
have you tried aromasin alone as mono therapy your self ?
not being argumentive just genrally interested thanks
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2019 06:25 AM by camy9000.)
07-13-2019 06:22 AM
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PixelFree Offline
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Post: #162
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
This sounds similar to Novaldex (Tamoxifan) Monotherapy. I did try this but can’t remember exactly the outcome. From memory it wasn’t stable or didn’t work well long term for some reason.
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2019 07:25 AM by PixelFree.)
07-13-2019 07:24 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #163
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-13-2019 07:24 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  This sounds similar to Novaldex (Tamoxifan) Monotherapy. I did try this but can’t remember exactly the outcome. From memory it wasn’t stable or didn’t work well long term for some reason.

It's not similar. Serms: Clomid, Nolva and Torem do increase your total and free test as well but increase your estradiol and SHBG along with it.

Aromasin lowers both. Thatswhy it is my preference.

There are no stability issues with either route as far as the level of boost in total and free test is being produced though.
07-14-2019 03:53 PM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #164
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-13-2019 06:22 AM)camy9000 Wrote:  would'nt 1 pill of day or aromasin crash your estrogen badly
how about proviron like even half a tab a day ?(12.5mg)
have you tried aromasin alone as mono therapy your self ?
not being argumentive just genrally interested thanks

For some it would for others it wouldn't. Thatswhy it is smart to not start with 1 pill a day.

Proviron doesn't boost free test by +100% and is methylated so gets your liver enzymes elevated which aromasin doesn't do.

It is not suitable if you are healthy and looking for an edge.
07-14-2019 04:00 PM
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camy9000 Offline
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Post: #165
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-14-2019 04:00 PM)kassad Wrote:  
(07-13-2019 06:22 AM)camy9000 Wrote:  would'nt 1 pill of day or aromasin crash your estrogen badly
how about proviron like even half a tab a day ?(12.5mg)
have you tried aromasin alone as mono therapy your self ?
not being argumentive just genrally interested thanks

For some it would for others it wouldn't. Thatswhy it is smart to not start with 1 pill a day.

Proviron doesn't boost free test by +100% and is methylated so gets your liver enzymes elevated which aromasin doesn't do.

It is not suitable if you are healthy and looking for an edge.
cool i guess better to start small i have tried torem and felt good first 2 weeks then started to get really bad mood swings so dunno if is estorgren or shgb or what any way might try very low dose armoasin 2x a week
07-15-2019 02:02 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-15-2019 02:02 AM)camy9000 Wrote:  cool i guess better to start small i have tried torem and felt good first 2 weeks then started to get really bad mood swings so dunno if is estorgren or shgb or what any way might try very low dose armoasin 2x a week

Would just like to emphasize as I am not sure I wrote what I intended clearly enough, that for most males it is absolutely possible to get up to the levels in the studies (although not needed for test boosting purposes) without 'crushing your estrogen'. What most people on forums report as 'it crushed my estradiol' is in my opinion the result of not gradually going up with the dose (for example start with 1/4 of a pill twice a week for two weeks, then 1/2 a pill twice a week for two weeks, then 1/2 a pill three times a week, etc. until satisfied [meaning your free test isn't rising anymore with the increased dose]). Never met anyone who had too low estrogen type of sides this way.

If you go for it and do bloods, be as kind and share your results, I think it's valuable info for this thread!
07-15-2019 06:34 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #167
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
FYI on another forum a user posted his before/after bloods for a 1/4 pill twice a week aromasin cycle. Here are my comments on that (long):

Oestradiol:
before: 26.7 pg/mL
after: 23.67 pg/mL

Test:
before: 449.5 ng/dL
after: 593.6 ng/dL

Free Test:
before: 65 pg/mL
after: 116 pg/mL

So in sum you had a massive 78% increase in free Test, with a smaller but signiffcant 32% increase in total test and a moderate 11.3% decrease in oestradiol.

From anastrozole/arimidex users I hear a lot of times that once they get their oestradiol below 21-22, their SHBG levels go down, which increases free Test. But where aromasin/exemestane shines according to the studies is that it seems to lower SHBG on itself by default, no matter the oestradiol numbers. Now your ‘after’ oestradiol numbers are pretty close to that 21-22 level here so you nailed the minimum effective dose rather perfectly I have to say as I strongly believe the two effects added here on top of each other.

Also would like to point out the following:
Your ‘after’ free test levels are aproaching the numbers who use 300mg/week of Test-e:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e679/b5...922705.pdf

Page 4, Table 2. (yours is 116pg/mL the average in the 300mg/w Test-e group after 20 weeks is 138pg/mL)
And these guys gained on average 5,5kg of fat free mass (so muscle) in this 20 week period.

So basically an equivalent of a 300mg/w “Test-e cycle” is achievable if one finds the correct dose of aromasin/exemestane for himself.

Now I am not saying you could as well push this to the equivalent of the 600mg/w dose in the study (which dose is also rather popular as the beginner’s bodybuilding cycle of Test) by taking 25mg (so the entire pill) a day in all cases (because you'll hit your limits), but still… Pretty awesome for something that is oral and is rather safe and side-effect free.

Here you can see the results for 25 and 50mg/day:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88...51/2661508

Table 2.
Free Test went to 190ish pg/mL in both cases, that is about the equivalent of a 400mg/week Test-e cycle.

And this is still exemestane/aromasin only.
One could add further SHBG inhibiting/lowering compounds and/or 5-AR inhibitors on top (my choice would be boron 10mg/day, and nettle as discussed above). Moving free test further up but still keeping DHT in check.

So to sum it up in the above, absolutely not unique case, had he went up to 1/2 a pill twice a week, he most likely would have reached his limits that would be close to the results in the 25/50 mg study. And any further dose increase wouldn't have a positive effect (just like going to 50 from 25mg in the study had diminishing returns). I am not saying there won't be people who would need 1/2 a pill three times a week, or one pill two times a week to get to their max free test possible, but you get the general idea...

Also would like to point out that this can be run year round if hematocrit, BP, lipids and DHT sides are kept in check. And would allow one to get results like you'd be on a 400mg/week Test TRT if you start with healthy testes and healthy levels of free test.
07-16-2019 04:29 AM
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camy9000 Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-16-2019 04:29 AM)kassad Wrote:  FYI on another forum a user posted his before/after bloods for a 1/4 pill twice a week aromasin cycle. Here are my comments on that (long):

Oestradiol:
before: 26.7 pg/mL
after: 23.67 pg/mL

Test:
before: 449.5 ng/dL
after: 593.6 ng/dL

Free Test:
before: 65 pg/mL
after: 116 pg/mL

So in sum you had a massive 78% increase in free Test, with a smaller but signiffcant 32% increase in total test and a moderate 11.3% decrease in oestradiol.

From anastrozole/arimidex users I hear a lot of times that once they get their oestradiol below 21-22, their SHBG levels go down, which increases free Test. But where aromasin/exemestane shines according to the studies is that it seems to lower SHBG on itself by default, no matter the oestradiol numbers. Now your ‘after’ oestradiol numbers are pretty close to that 21-22 level here so you nailed the minimum effective dose rather perfectly I have to say as I strongly believe the two effects added here on top of each other.

Also would like to point out the following:
Your ‘after’ free test levels are aproaching the numbers who use 300mg/week of Test-e:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e679/b5...922705.pdf

Page 4, Table 2. (yours is 116pg/mL the average in the 300mg/w Test-e group after 20 weeks is 138pg/mL)
And these guys gained on average 5,5kg of fat free mass (so muscle) in this 20 week period.

So basically an equivalent of a 300mg/w “Test-e cycle” is achievable if one finds the correct dose of aromasin/exemestane for himself.

Now I am not saying you could as well push this to the equivalent of the 600mg/w dose in the study (which dose is also rather popular as the beginner’s bodybuilding cycle of Test) by taking 25mg (so the entire pill) a day in all cases (because you'll hit your limits), but still… Pretty awesome for something that is oral and is rather safe and side-effect free.

Here you can see the results for 25 and 50mg/day:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88...51/2661508

Table 2.
Free Test went to 190ish pg/mL in both cases, that is about the equivalent of a 400mg/week Test-e cycle.

And this is still exemestane/aromasin only.
One could add further SHBG inhibiting/lowering compounds and/or 5-AR inhibitors on top (my choice would be boron 10mg/day, and nettle as discussed above). Moving free test further up but still keeping DHT in check.

So to sum it up in the above, absolutely not unique case, had he went up to 1/2 a pill twice a week, he most likely would have reached his limits that would be close to the results in the 25/50 mg study. And any further dose increase wouldn't have a positive effect (just like going to 50 from 25mg in the study had diminishing returns). I am not saying there won't be people who would need 1/2 a pill three times a week, or one pill two times a week to get to their max free test possible, but you get the general idea...

Also would like to point out that this can be run year round if hematocrit, BP, lipids and DHT sides are kept in check. And would allow one to get results like you'd be on a 400mg/week Test TRT if you start with healthy testes and healthy levels of free test.

Intresting did they report if they felt any diffrent in libido energy ect? numbers are good but i guess if there is no change in feelings for me its pointless
07-18-2019 12:53 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #169
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-18-2019 12:53 AM)camy9000 Wrote:  Intresting did they report if they felt any diffrent in libido energy ect? numbers are good but i guess if there is no change in feelings for me its pointless

"Felt great, Low T symptoms disappeared"

Although if somebody is eugonadal, with a healthy production and using it to 'gain an edge' aka bodybuilding purposes, the numbers will become more important than the feeling. Like I said if the FreeT closes in on what is available with a 400mg/w Test cycle, the results will as well...
07-18-2019 01:44 PM
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PixelFree Offline
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Post: #170
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
This sounds great in theory, although so did Clomid back before I tried it.

I'd prefer to see a lot more history and content on the web from guys who have been successful using AI mono therapy long term. I'm no expert but there doesn't seem to be much? Other weird things can happen as well such as amazing numbers yet libido disappears.

I love the ideal of taking a 1/4 of a pill 2x per week to get muscular and drop fat (and personally tried many things like this with a Dr over 2 years) but I'm still thinking the only real long term healthy way is to nail down nutrition and training naturally (which, I haven't been able to do yet).
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2019 04:49 AM by PixelFree.)
07-19-2019 04:48 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #171
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(07-19-2019 04:48 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  This sounds great in theory, although so did Clomid back before I tried it.

I'd prefer to see a lot more history and content on the web from guys who have been successful using AI mono therapy long term. I'm no expert but there doesn't seem to be much? Other weird things can happen as well such as amazing numbers yet libido disappears.

I love the ideal of taking a 1/4 of a pill 2x per week to get muscular and drop fat (and personally tried many things like this with a Dr over 2 years) but I'm still thinking the only real long term healthy way is to nail down nutrition and training naturally (which, I haven't been able to do yet).

You have to train right, eat right and rest right first that is a given. Without dose dialed in nothing will help in a large enough way to worth it. The above three however won't get you through your genetic limit. Supraphisiological levels of free test will (if you continue doing the previous three along with it).

This is what I think the smart way for doing this is.

The reason you don't see AI monotherapy a lot is because most people who actually clinically need trt doesn't have healthy enough testes to produce the amounts needed for a clinically significant effect (that is why natural production boosting treatments like HCG only, clomid only are a lot less popular than going straight to testosterone injections). So it works a lot better if you are healthy (and don't need it for clinical low test purposes). And if you are looking to use it for bodybuilding purposes traditional anabolics will be a lot stronger period (because you can both go higher on the dose, and can use substances that have a higher anabolic to androgenic ratio than your own test).

But this is a beautiful solution for when you want an edge with the least amount of future complications and sides. It is also a beautiful solution if you want to age slower (to a point) so to speak.
07-19-2019 06:54 AM
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kassad Offline
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Post: #172
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
Some further food for thought:
I've been really looking into Aromasin (Exemestane) as monoteraphy and found a lot of conflicting information about dosing. Studies done on men use the female chemotheraphy dose of 25mg/day (and compared it to 50mg/day, both doses had the same effect). According to most online forums these doses are overkill. Some people state outright that a 6.25mg dose had the same effect on them as a 25mg dose, so I looked into studies that use a smaller than 25mg dose. I found three, but note that they aren't done on men, the subjects are postmenopausal women:

The first shows pretty well how they come up with the 25mg/day dose:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9815789
They started from 5mg then 10mg, 25mg and we already know we are not interested in the higher doses for trt purposes. So my interpretation (feel free to comment):
5mg/day: E2 suppression already at it's peak.
10mg/day: E1 supression at it's peak (E2 suppression hsn't grown since the 5mg dose).
25mg/day: E1S suppression at it's peak (E1 and E1 supp. already maxed out at 10mg).

Suppressing E1 and E1S makes sense when you are treating breast cancer. But when you are trying to boost LH via lowering the estrogen feedback loop it's completely fine if you only suppress E2 to the max. So based on the above the test boosting effect of 5mg/day would be the same as 25mg/day.

Let's look at the 2nd study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9274439

It's not overly precise in the Abstract so if anyone has access to the entire study be as kind and qoute the relevan numbers/tables for the exact suppression numbers.

However as I am deciphering this is:
They used 0.5, 1, 2.5 or 5 mg doses. 'Serum E1, E2 and E1S levels were suppressed by all doses starting from day 7; the degree of inhibition versus baseline was 25 up to 72% for E1, 30 up to 62% for E2 and 16 up to 52% for E1S, with higher doses achieving greater suppression'
if dose dependancy is linear and I am reading this correctly:
0.5mg/day: E1:25%,E2: 30%,E1S: 16%
1mg/day: E1: ~50%,E2: 62% (max suppression), E1S: ~32%
2.5mg/day: E1: ~62% (maxed out),E2 (was already maxed out at 1mg), E1S: ~52% (maxed out)
5mg/day: everything was already maxed out at 2.5mg/day.
The study also states: 'doses ranging from 2.5 to 25 mg induced a similar suppression of oestrogens '

The third low dose study showing 2.5mg and 5mg and 25mg having the same effect on both E2 and E1 can be found here with detailed numbers (click on the pictures) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...36/?page=3

So if my interpretation of the second study is correct than the second and third study confirm each others' results and they are somewhat in contradiction with the first one regarding E1 and E1S. But all three agree in that at 5mg/day E2 suppression (what is interesting for us) is already at it's max though.

So this explains why a single dose of 6.25mg suppress guys on the estradiol sensitive tests as a single dose of 25mg. Let's get on to 2times a week dosing:

Back to the study on men:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88...51/2661508
'The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h after a single 25-mg dose of exemestane. Estradiol remained suppressed by 58 ± 21% at 24 h and returned to baseline 3–6 d after treatment'
So first, depending on how fast your body is producing new aromatase enzime you are back to baseline between 3-6 days. Second, in 27hours or roughly a day after taking aromasin only 1/8 of the dose taken is present in your body. So even if you take 25mg what you are doing is maybe prolonging the return to baseline by one day compared to taking a 5mg dose.

So this confirms why 6.25mg twice a week has the same effect as 25mg twice a week.

This also means 5mg/day would suppress you more than 25mg twice a week.

What I would be interested in is someone with access to having estradiol sensitive blood tests (yes I am located in Europe, so I don't...) could confirm or oppose the above findings on personal experience.

Because if the above is true for men as well that would mean dose and effect on E2 realtionship would be only linear between 0.5mg/day and 1mg/day and no further E2 suppression would arise above 1mg/day.

Which would also mean one research bottle of 30ml 25mg/ml exemestane would last 2 years at the maxed out dose of 1mg/day in a male testosterone rejuvenation application...
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2019 06:39 AM by kassad.)
07-30-2019 06:35 AM
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EddyStarkFit
ArloDash Offline
Recovering Beta
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Posts: 160
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Post: #173
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(11-10-2016 04:13 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 03:55 PM)rhodey Wrote:  
(11-09-2016 11:02 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  
(04-08-2016 12:58 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 07:12 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  It's nice that you're feeling great now, but clomid tends to raise your estrogen, subsequently offsetting the benefits you get from higher T. Then within a couple months from now, you're back to where you started.

Clomid IS an Estrogen (completely benign) and it competes with other Estrogens at the receptor site, blocking their estrogenic actions.

This is what eventually can lead to increased Testosterone levels (although some research has shown Clomid to have some merit for powering up the LH/FSH system as well)

As a result this could "possibly" show up as increase Estrogen on a blood test, but it is not the real thing.

The only true negative side effects of Clomid are that it unfavorably effects some peoples Vision (floaters) and Emotions (anecdotal).

No need to worry about Estrogenic side-effects while on Clomid.

Also, Progesterone has been shown to naturally rise with Testosterone, your Doc putting you on Arimidex for increase Progesterone seems amateurish, especially when you already have Clomid in your system binding to estrogenic receptor sites.

A lot of anti-aging clinics are now prescribing Progesterone and Pregnenolone Transdermal Creams to men to increase Neurotransmitter function, which then restores your Adrenal Gland output, leading to increase DHEA, Testosterone, Thyroid Hormones and lowered Cortisol.

Try to get switched to Exemestane from Arimidex.
Exemestane (commonly known as Aromasin) is the fucking bomb.
Exemestane is a Suicide Inhibitor that lowers SHBG, causes ZERO Estrogen Rebound upon cessation of use and doesn't crush your Estrogen levels like Arimidex/Letrozole (Aromatase Inhibitors) will.

Glad to have a knowledgable bro contribute.

"The only true negative side effects of Clomid are that it unfavorably effects some peoples Vision (floaters) and Emotions (anecdotal)."

My friend took it, got the same kind of T boost described above. According to him, the "No need to worry about Estrogenic side-effects while on Clomid." is a bit exagerrated - it binds to the receptor without the same strength as normal estrogen, which tends to block most estrogenic effects, but you're still getting SOMETHING binding to the receptor and having some action.

He said he felt like a woman on her period emotionally...why do that to yourself? He ended up just going on (fully legal) HRT and feels like the hulk without getting PMS. Why deal with the extra hassle of the Clomid route?

He might be estrogen sensitive or just took too high of a dose. My clomid is bundled with DIM and an estrogen inhibitor. I certainly don't feel like a women. Quite the contrary, I'm clocking in @1000-1100 consistently on 25mgs EOD and I feel great.

This is the perfect example of what I was talking about.
Each and every person has a very different genetic makeup.
Blue Pill way of thinking is "We are all the same" and searching for a magic "One size fits all" pill.
Red Pill way is to test it, take notes on it and tweak/correct as needed.
If you get it right on the 1st try, than more power to you!

Another interesting example is our very own Mike Cernovich.
He has tried TRT, then decided to come off and stay off.
TRT may be exactly right for one person and not for another, just like Clomid therapy.

Wasn't he doing that to have kids? I'm pretty sure that was the reason but obviously can't speak for sure. I listened in a podcast about him dumping all of his Test in Vietnam, and a year later he had a daughter.

Victor Pride, on the other hand, chose to come off and stay off for good.
07-30-2019 07:19 AM
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EddyStarkFit Offline
Male Feminist

Posts: 1
Joined: Jun 2019
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Post: #174
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
(01-15-2018 09:54 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  
(01-15-2018 09:05 PM)RMD Wrote:  @scrapper - for a 12 week Test E only cycle, I have Toremefine, Exemestane, Clomid, and HCG on hand. Given your thoughts on torem, would Exemestane EOD and HCG EOD on-cycle be necessary? And for PCT, would Torem by itself (or Torem + Exemestane) be sufficient?

Trying to get away from the standard issue Nolva/Clomid and want to see your thoughts on these for a proper PCT.

My personal Toremifene research has shown that (On-Cycle):
Toremifene 60mg Every Day, On-Cycle (Prevent Suppression)
OR
Toremifene 60mg Every Other Day, On-Cycle (Prevent Shutdown)
Since your using Testosterone you could opt for 60mg Every Other Day, On-Cycle to Prevent Shutdown.

Post-Cycle:
Toremifene 30mg Every Day for 4 weeks
Then switch to 30mg Every Other Day for another 4 weeks

Off-Cycle:
Toremifene, as little as 15mg Every Other Day, for life, does wonders for everyone I have helped.

---------
Exemestane On-Cycle with Testosterone is great to lower SHBG Levels to allow for more circulating Total and Free T & DHT.
In the future, might as well just save money and forgo this though.

HCG, my personal opinion is not necessary anymore because of all the anecdotal information coming out about Toremifene.
However if it gives you piece of mind and you already have it on-hand, run the HCG once or twice a week.
HCG can be suppressive so I would not run it during Post-Cycle.
In the future, might as well just save money and forgo this though.

---------
If any issues with Chest Puffiness, always jump on Raloxifene ASAP!
Nothing touches Raloxifene, the next best thing is not even close.

What about DHT control, preventing hairloss/BPH without ED? Any tips?
07-30-2019 08:06 PM
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revenge Offline
Male Feminist

Posts: 3
Joined: Apr 2018
Reputation: 0
Post: #175
RE: Clomid for Testosterone
interested in this thread ı wil be trying finasteride and aromasin duotheraphy,already got myself aromasin was expensive though ı also have some studies and other's experience with finasteride+arimidex or aromasin in other forums will be posting the topics and study later on.
Also 3 years ago ı had some experience with finasteride was taking 1.25 and sometimes 2.5mg it caused insatiable sex drive on me at first but later it settled down back then ı was an amateur in endocrinology ı guess finasteride increased testosterone from dht inhibition and jacked up my estradiol and got moody and had sexual sides also brainfog also the reason for me to try this experiment ı have tons of body hair on my chest shoulders and another places but ı kinda have low sex drive and energy in life and tired most of the time during the day these experiences led me to believe that ı may have overactive 5ar causing high dht low testosterone low free t dosage will be probably 0.625 fin eod with 12.5mg aromasin on mondays and 6.5mg on thursdays any advice or suggestions?
08-08-2019 12:36 PM
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