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TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
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TravelerKai Away
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Post: #76
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(06-24-2016 04:59 AM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  
(06-23-2016 03:41 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(06-23-2016 01:54 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  The thing everyone needs to remember when discussing Muay Thai outside of Thailand is that the scoring changes the training.

Westerners don't like clinching and don't really like sweeping. Western judges and audiences struggle to understand, let alone implement native Thai scoring. There are a handful of MT judges in the whole of the UK that I would trust to correctly score a bout by native rules (I've been on many seminars on the subject...it's just not that straightforward).

So, Western judges tend to score bouts on the 10 point system, as that's what they are programmed to do and it helps a clueless audience understand why x fighter won the fight. Punches are considered equal to kicks unlike Thailand. Westerners would be perplexed at the first round in MT not really scoring, for instance. Clinch scoring? No chance.

So because of this, and the influence of other combat sports, Westerners fight MT differently. Because of this, we train differently too.



Preach!

It is HARD to get MMA fighters that have trained somewhere else before to fucking clinch people! Don't even try to teach them butterfly knees. I try to tell them they can pad the score card big time doing this and they refuse to do it because they are afraid they will get lifted or thrown, doublelegged, etc. It's a stupid fear. If you cannot knee quick enough to avoid that, you might as well go train with wrestlers not MT people. Or as CBW said, other styles of kickboxing.

For me it's just annoying as fuck trying to teach authentic Muay Thai and dudes want to dance around all day and not throw knees or elbows. I actually stopped teaching it to a couple of guys because they got on my nerves so badly about it.

The ironic thing about all of this is that the best wrestlers in UFC history (arguably) Dan Severn and Randy Couture made a king's ransom worth of a living off "dirty boxing" and clinching people. Ask anyone that ever fought or sparred with either guy and they will tell you how annoying it was because there was just no fucking escape. They rode your ass and got into your head badly doing it. Guys got very frustrated trying to pull away for the tenth time during a match. You would too.

I could talk about training and people's bad habits all day long. Honestly I thought it was just an American people/UFC thing. I had no idea other trainers have the same issue abroad. I once got hoarse screaming at a guy from the corner to knee a dude's thigh he had the back on. He had already kicked him in the same leg a million times before. Ridiculous.

So true man!

Real muay thai has tecniques for catching legs that are about to knee you when clinching, and bear-hugging to slamming someone on the ground from the clinch is also part of it, so like you say they practice to be quick as hell. So no excuses for not trying to learn it and apply it into MMA. Btw, both Randy and Dan where greco-roman right? Because doesnt greco-romans usually clinch more then freestyles (generaly)?

Here is a good example of someone that has blended in real muay thai with MMA. Hop to 4:50 for some good clinch-knees.

I forgot about this part. This is very interesting. I gotta bring this up to some wrestlers I know and get their opinion on this. Some of the guys I know wrestled Greco, Freestyle, folk etc. pretty much equally split.

I forgot about the guys that only wrestle Freestyle only or Greco only. There are advantages and disadvantages of specializing and being diverse on that. Freestyle guys hate giving up their backs and it is easy to exploit them from a BJJ perspective just because of that. Your average freestyle guy will spin around like a torpedo until he gets where he wants. It's like their brains are washed from all that repetition. So I can see how a Greco guy can be comfortable with clinching.

I'm tempted to ask Dan Severn himself. He is very nice and would answer some questions about this. If I did videos like Roosh does, that would actually make for a good interview. Eh, maybe someday...

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1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2016 10:20 AM by TravelerKai.)
06-25-2016 10:20 AM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
TK, that would be very interesting to hear. Im not a wrestler, but I have a great interest in the sport. Just watched some clips of both freestyle and Greco, my amateur eyes wuld confirm that Greco has some more clinch/on your feet action then freestyle. Which takes us to Randys 'dirty boxing' from the clinch and its (sort of) similarities with thai clinch. There is a pattern here, but I just cant put my finger on it.

On another note, If you decided to make videos about this you could probably get a lot of subscribers and get paid by youtube, considering the growing popularity for martial arts. With your intel, you could probably write some books about the subject, so dont drop the idea completly Wink
06-25-2016 01:38 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
TK, great datasheet, can you go into a bit more detail about the Bruce Lee story with the Dim Mak practitioner?

Was that when he fought Wong Jak Man? Cause I always read that he won that fight easily. Ive just heard to many versions of this story its hard to distinguish what really happened.
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06-25-2016 05:11 PM
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Dupe
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06-25-2016 05:17 PM
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TravelerKai Away
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(06-25-2016 05:11 PM)HonantheBarbarian Wrote:  TK, great datasheet, can you go into a bit more detail about the Bruce Lee story with the Dim Mak practitioner?

Was that when he fought Wong Jak Man? Cause I always read that he won that fight easily. Ive just heard to many versions of this story its hard to distinguish what really happened.

Heck no, it definitely wasn't that guy. That was one of the many fights Bruce did win if I recall correctly. Also that guy is a Tai Chi Chuan master. That does not mean he would know Dim Mak. That is a completely separate style set. Also that fight allegedly happened in 1964. Bruce died in the 70s.

I will send you and MiscBrah a PM with all that I know. I cannot post what I know publicly.

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06-25-2016 06:50 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
Awesome datasheet TK. I have been a fan of yours since you were on the the other forum about guys traveling overseas.

I want to learn a martial art that is good for defense and to quickly end a conflict. I see martial arts the same way I see guns. I would rather have it and never have to apply it in a real life situation than to need it but not be prepared to defend myself.

Martial arts knowledge would be nice to pass down to my children if I decided to have any. I believe that part of being a man requires you to learn how to defend yourself and family.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
06-25-2016 09:34 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(06-25-2016 09:34 PM)BigTony Wrote:  Awesome datasheet TK. I have been a fan of yours since you were on the the other forum about guys traveling overseas.

I want to learn a martial art that is good for defense and to quickly end a conflict. I see martial arts the same way I see guns. I would rather have it and never have to apply it in a real life situation than to need it but not be prepared to defend myself.

Martial arts knowledge would be nice to pass down to my children if I decided to have any. I believe that part of being a man requires you to learn how to defend yourself and family.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You have many options to choose from. I will send you a PM to narrow it down more.

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1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
06-26-2016 07:52 AM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
Just wanted to share part of a conversation PM wise. I thought it would be a good learning opportunity for those looking for anything like Russian Systema.


The question was if these guys were legit or not:





I asked him to tell me what he thought.

Quote:I liked the Systema video. I gather that you have to strike the aggressor in certain spots to drive him back. This will limit his forward motion with the knife.

Full speed would've been nice to see.

My response:

Quote:Here is the problem with striking a knife holder.

1. If you time it badly, the person can slice your entire midsection open spilling your entrails. A cut to your diaphragm is also practically lethal.

2. It goes against JJ principles of addressing the strongest threat, by isolation first (disarm), then dispatch (incapacitate the attacker)

3. It gives an attacker the sense that you are going to box him and give him a second chance to kill you.

4. Assumes you are big enough and strong enough to punch this person hard enough to stop them in their tracks. Could you punch MiscBrah or CrashBangWallop in the chest hard enough if they had a knife? I highly doubt it. Weight = power

5. These kinds of techniques are terrible for multiple opponents.

6. If you have to take out a knife holder with strikes, they could have at least taken out the persons legs first. For one, it's safer, gives you a backout plan option if you miss, and eliminates the opportunity for an opponent to counter after the first stab. A Karateka would do something like this if they do not have a good toolset on small joint manipulation techniques (although some styles of Karate have them with blocking combinations)

7. Don't be fooled by speed. Speed is not always power. If that technique was done faster would not have mattered, if the guy turned his knife into his chest, like a knee jerk reflex as he was being punched.

My verdict is that they are McDojo unless I see different stuff that would say otherwise. Their other videos are not good either. Only an in person evaluation could let me know for certain.

Watch one of the fathers of it from Russia doing it in this video below:






And






If a Systema school does not look like what these Russian/Russian military guys are doing, it ain't fucking real Systema.

According to the Systema Association, they are accredited. So just visit them and make sure they are what they are supposed to be. Keep your skeptic hat on though. Systema does have the same problem Krav Maga has, that some instructors are waaaay better than others. It is, what it is.

So with that stuff in mind, Archie and others that have asked about Systema, be sure to check out a prospective training place for yourself to make certain you are not being tricked. Accreditations are sometimes about the money. Is every official Gracie JiuJitsu school 100% legit as the main ones in Brazil? No. It's ultimately about the teacher themselves, who he is, how he trains, what he learned, and how well he teaches.

Do not be afraid to question the physique of a teacher either. Unless they are an old man or woman, there is no reason for a healthy middle age male to be in sloppy shape or physically weak(within reason). The guys in the first video up above don't have enough physical tools to punch someone like CrashBangWallop, MikeCF, or Anonymous Bosch in the stomach and stop them from using a knife on them. They would turn that knife into their chest and may not even budge from that punch.

Key principles to keep in mind:

1. Street Defense is a progression of steps.

2. Threats must be weighed and prioritized.

3. Physical condition (like stab wounds) should always be considered, planned for, and accommodated in your training on how to handle further threats.

4. Any man under 6 feet and 220 pounds, should train with larger males to understand the differences in defense strategy and technique selections.

Lastly you tend to see alot of punching of attackers with knives from Krav Maga schools. There is a big difference in Krav Maga and Systema and this is one of them. Systema has a large base from Japanese JuJitsu, while Krav Maga does not.

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1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
(This post was last modified: 07-14-2016 02:34 PM by TravelerKai.)
07-14-2016 02:33 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(06-25-2016 09:53 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(06-25-2016 05:12 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  
(06-24-2016 07:34 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  How would he be smartass or trolling you?

I don't understand how you could take it that way, from how I read it.

Seems like a humorous reply followed by a quick question (perhaps the tone from funny to serious question is a strange transition?)

G


Guys, let's stop with the silliness. This is one of the best threads on the forum and let's keep it that way.

I have been seriously thinking of hitting up Philippines to learn Eskrima/Kali. After reading this I am a little hesitant. I was under the impression the movements with sticks were suppose to translate with other weapons and even empty hands.

It this not the case? The reason I asked is because of the comments about walking around with sticks.

Cheers Guys and thanks for the in-depth comparisons.


The stick movements do translate to other weapons and empty hands.

In fact, let's breakdown what melee weapons are in general.

Melee weapons are just extensions of your own hands.

An untrained 12 year old will still swing a sword like a child. Why, not so much because he sucks at a sword, but because his hands are not fully trained to wield it.

If you ever train with Japanese swords you start off learning with the kendo stick first. Bokken swords come later. Why? A Bokken is heavier and alot closer to a real sword and will help strengthen your arms and hands. A Kendo stick is light and is for getting down the motions and technique correctly.

FMA has the same principles in mind. If you can swing a stick so quickly and smack a guy 7 times, in 7 different areas, taking away his ability to react, imagine what what you would do if you were holding a knife! That is why they can "undress" a man in under 2 seconds. They cut the sinews, the tendons, then the carotid arteries. A guy with his tendons cut, cannot use his arms to stop you.

That is why FMA is extremely deadly in wrong hands. In some way, the sticks serve a purpose for them to check your mentality before showing you all the knife stuff. I was able to skip ahead because I only had 3-4 months to learn it, I have a black belt in Japanese JuJitsu (so I know just as many dangerous things if not more), and these were private lessons in the form of a trade (I taught him BJJ, he taught me their knife and hand suite). If I had the luxury of time back then, I would have learned the sticks too. FMA is also based on Japanese Ju Jitsu. Where it differs is their striking suite, the sticks, and the advanced knife techniques. Another reason for the sticks is that it is safer to practice your rhythms with a stick than a knife. Old school knife fighters in the PI have scars all over their arms. You don't want that.

I was told this by Filipinos I know (including the guy that trained me), although I never been there to see it, that many hitmen there (like Davao Death Squad types), are dangerous like this. Allegedly they are proficient with knives and sticks due to FMA techniques. Some have guns yes for sure, but street fighting is still their base.

If you want to learn FMA, do not let the sticks deter you. If anything you probably want that knowledge. Collapsible sticks are now a reality and even Korean gangsters commonly carry them. When I learned back then, that was not really around like that. Maybe they existed but they may not have been as good as they are now. If you think about it, in some places carrying sticks is legal whereas knives are not. It's good to have options, especially if you like to travel.

If you absolutely want to learn without sticks, you could always go for Pencak Silat, but some schools still use them as well. It really seems to depends on the teacher. Some of them even use machetes or swords and you probably won't like that either. It's really not a deal breaker at all the end of the day when you really think about it.

Really deep video from these Kali/FMA guys.

The conversation they are having is really good and is some very real talk. Any skeptic of knife fighting or self defense outside of guns should watch this.




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1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
07-14-2016 03:26 PM
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(06-22-2016 05:39 PM)KC4 Wrote:  @TK are you willing to more in depth fight breakdowns? Mma or kickboxing? Would love to see you breakdown fighters like buakaw, nieky holzken or dominick cruz

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on one of these. I had some notes but I have to start and stop too much.

I like Cruz and so do many others, looking around youtube I saw vids galore for him.

One in particular was interesting enough to bother breaking down.





This film study guy is very good. That said, I took issue with some of the things he wrote.

~3:48 mark he makes a few crazy claims that Cruz is able to low leg kick guys and get away with it because they are too busy keeping their hands up to protect, which blocks their line of sight.

I don't really agree with that.

1. Your guard should match your style of fight, the rules, and your opponent.

2. If your opponent is not capable of high head kicks, don't defend for that.

3. High Muay Thai guards are good for Muay Thai matches. Cruz's opponents should study Cruz's fights enough on film to know that he is a wrestler, a boxer, and a low rank belt in BJJ. His kickboxing skills are not high level in my opinion. Just basic enough to do the job.

If you check a Cruz kick with a MT style check angle, (knee pointed to the ground), he might slip or reel back from smashing his shin into your patella. I would train a fighter to do that if he is capable of doing that quickly enough to catch Cruz.

4. Cruz does not need a set up for kicks to land because he is just that fucking fast. He can pace the ring in a lacksidaisy looking mope, because he can get away with it. That's it. There is no technique behind that. His pushoff speed is "world class". Anderson Silva gets away with this for the exact same reasons, except Cruz is even faster than he is pound for pound, in my opinion. Silva has better timing (hand eye coordination) than Cruz, which is ultimately superior from a skillset standpoint.

5. Putting your guard at your neck level (chin) is the universal happy medium for MMA. This allows you to protect your head, body, and not block your field vision. Would you keep a guard that low for Anderson Silva or Mirko Cro Cop? Hell no. Not unless you are stupid or cocky.

Cruz's speed is what makes him a tricky fighter. A wrestler like him kicking should not be anyone's major concern. His kicks may not even have major bite to it to someone with a legit kickboxing background. What is of concern is his hands and hand-speed.

He often catches guys through blocks with hooks and straight/crosses. People should keep in mind that pro and amatuer boxers that cross over into MMA absolutely know that an MMA glove is nowhere near the size of a 12-16oz boxing glove. If GGG or other pros will punch through a guard on the regular, so will a guy like Cruz. He fights out of Brandon Vera's outfit. Vera is a boxer and a kickboxer and it shows in Cruz. Vera was notorious for punching people through guards and funny angles in the UFC for years.

When studying a guy's fighting style sometimes you need to study who trained him too.

The only downside of kicking like Cruz does, is that a really fast opponent can close in and grapple you. Problem for them is that Cruz is top 2 in speed in his weight class and is a wrestler. So he has it covered basically. It does leave him open for uppercuts and counterhooks, but let's be honest. Who in the UFC can throw good uppercuts? Not many.

~7:49

Cruz's ability to throw punches while backpeddling, while exceptional, is not that uncanny. It just looks like it because he is very quick and is good at slipping punches. One small flaw is see in the punch delivery I never noticed until now, is that he swings it like a mini-haymaker. That should be tighter and more straight.

If you want to see uncanny backpeddling punches watch Lyoto Machida. When you throw them straight the power is full blown. That is why Karate practitioners throw punches this way and fish for angles that let them rip out those nasty punches. Others that are Karate guys have done this too, if I find an example somewhere I'll post it. Cruz is an angle fighter so he could easily transition into this.

Wrapping it up, Cruz style wise is an aggressive counter striker and wrestler. I think Joe Rogan said a long time ago that Cruz has very few to no holes in his game. He is pretty much correct in a sense, but I say he has a few holes, but has good ways of covering them up. When he gets old, he may not have that speed to cover the holes in his game but will need to develop good timing skills to create his angles like Silva does.

The rest of the video is good and that is all I have on Cruz, unless you or others have questions.

Dating Guide for Mainland China Datasheet
TravelerKai's Martial Arts Datasheet
1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
(This post was last modified: 07-14-2016 05:30 PM by TravelerKai.)
07-14-2016 04:31 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-14-2016 03:26 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(06-25-2016 09:53 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(06-25-2016 05:12 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  
(06-24-2016 07:34 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  How would he be smartass or trolling you?

I don't understand how you could take it that way, from how I read it.

Seems like a humorous reply followed by a quick question (perhaps the tone from funny to serious question is a strange transition?)

G


Guys, let's stop with the silliness. This is one of the best threads on the forum and let's keep it that way.

I have been seriously thinking of hitting up Philippines to learn Eskrima/Kali. After reading this I am a little hesitant. I was under the impression the movements with sticks were suppose to translate with other weapons and even empty hands.

It this not the case? The reason I asked is because of the comments about walking around with sticks.

Cheers Guys and thanks for the in-depth comparisons.


The stick movements do translate to other weapons and empty hands.

In fact, let's breakdown what melee weapons are in general.

Melee weapons are just extensions of your own hands.

An untrained 12 year old will still swing a sword like a child. Why, not so much because he sucks at a sword, but because his hands are not fully trained to wield it.

If you ever train with Japanese swords you start off learning with the kendo stick first. Bokken swords come later. Why? A Bokken is heavier and alot closer to a real sword and will help strengthen your arms and hands. A Kendo stick is light and is for getting down the motions and technique correctly.

FMA has the same principles in mind. If you can swing a stick so quickly and smack a guy 7 times, in 7 different areas, taking away his ability to react, imagine what what you would do if you were holding a knife! That is why they can "undress" a man in under 2 seconds. They cut the sinews, the tendons, then the carotid arteries. A guy with his tendons cut, cannot use his arms to stop you.

That is why FMA is extremely deadly in wrong hands. In some way, the sticks serve a purpose for them to check your mentality before showing you all the knife stuff. I was able to skip ahead because I only had 3-4 months to learn it, I have a black belt in Japanese JuJitsu (so I know just as many dangerous things if not more), and these were private lessons in the form of a trade (I taught him BJJ, he taught me their knife and hand suite). If I had the luxury of time back then, I would have learned the sticks too. FMA is also based on Japanese Ju Jitsu. Where it differs is their striking suite, the sticks, and the advanced knife techniques. Another reason for the sticks is that it is safer to practice your rhythms with a stick than a knife. Old school knife fighters in the PI have scars all over their arms. You don't want that.

I was told this by Filipinos I know (including the guy that trained me), although I never been there to see it, that many hitmen there (like Davao Death Squad types), are dangerous like this. Allegedly they are proficient with knives and sticks due to FMA techniques. Some have guns yes for sure, but street fighting is still their base.

If you want to learn FMA, do not let the sticks deter you. If anything you probably want that knowledge. Collapsible sticks are now a reality and even Korean gangsters commonly carry them. When I learned back then, that was not really around like that. Maybe they existed but they may not have been as good as they are now. If you think about it, in some places carrying sticks is legal whereas knives are not. It's good to have options, especially if you like to travel.

If you absolutely want to learn without sticks, you could always go for Pencak Silat, but some schools still use them as well. It really seems to depends on the teacher. Some of them even use machetes or swords and you probably won't like that either. It's really not a deal breaker at all the end of the day when you really think about it.

Really deep video from these Kali/FMA guys.

The conversation they are having is really good and is some very real talk. Any skeptic of knife fighting or self defense outside of guns should watch this.




Great video!
The gentleman speaking at the end about the differences in training is a great point. Sometime people who aren't exposed to training see videos on youtube and claim the stuff is/looks fake. Almost all good instructors will train you slow and with a purpose. Doesn't matter how fast you can hit if you miss the intended target.

In regards to knife training, most of what you see on the internet is absolute garbage. Don't learn from videos. This isn't RSD/PUA here. It's life or death.

For those who've never been in a knife fight, try to keep in mind there will be A LOT of blood. Way more than you think there would be. People drop their knives/weapons and slip on the ground due to the amount of blood.

The few I've been in opened my eyes to the realities of adding knives into a fight.
I wont post on the forum but you can find knife fight videos on liveleak. Very scary stuff.

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07-14-2016 04:54 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(06-20-2016 04:05 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  ** Highly conceptual and contextual, not very specific like much of Chinese language itself. The fighters that were the best, simply “Got it” and were amazing. Being creative with the forms makes it very artful indeed.

Notice the difference between Jackie Chan, Jet Li and your average Chinese actor that is an expert in martial arts? The gulf in skill enormous. It’s not even about the level of athleticism. Even Donnie Yen is arguably not as good as those two were in their primes. It is very common to see one super amazing elite practitioner in a school, and everyone else is amazingly average.

This is the dirtiest secret of Chinese Gong Fu. Other forms of martial arts have much less parity. People that are not creative/flexible thinkers will never be great at Chinese Martial Arts. Never.

This is the most sobering part of CMA for me. I started learning when I was about 10 and continued all the way through high school, but after turning 18 I felt my skill level plateauing, and from that point lost interest. Does this mean that I'm not a creative or flexible thinker? I'd like to think that isn't the case, just that I channel my creativity and flexibility through avenues other than combat.

I still train myself physically, most recently taking up parkour since last year, but while martial arts still intrugue me I am not interested in learning anything at the moment, possibly due to the fear of disappointment at plateauing as I felt with CMA.

Feel free to PM me for wine advice or other stuff
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(This post was last modified: 07-14-2016 06:35 PM by Tengen.)
07-14-2016 06:34 PM
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TravelerKai Away
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-14-2016 06:34 PM)Tengen Wrote:  
(06-20-2016 04:05 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  ** Highly conceptual and contextual, not very specific like much of Chinese language itself. The fighters that were the best, simply “Got it” and were amazing. Being creative with the forms makes it very artful indeed.

Notice the difference between Jackie Chan, Jet Li and your average Chinese actor that is an expert in martial arts? The gulf in skill enormous. It’s not even about the level of athleticism. Even Donnie Yen is arguably not as good as those two were in their primes. It is very common to see one super amazing elite practitioner in a school, and everyone else is amazingly average.

This is the dirtiest secret of Chinese Gong Fu. Other forms of martial arts have much less parity. People that are not creative/flexible thinkers will never be great at Chinese Martial Arts. Never.

This is the most sobering part of CMA for me. I started learning when I was about 10 and continued all the way through high school, but after turning 18 I felt my skill level plateauing, and from that point lost interest. Does this mean that I'm not a creative or flexible thinker? I'd like to think that isn't the case, just that I channel my creativity and flexibility through avenues other than combat.

I still train myself physically, most recently taking up parkour since last year, but while martial arts still intrugue me I am not interested in learning anything at the moment, possibly due to the fear of disappointment at plateauing as I felt with CMA.

Look at it this way. I spent many years studying CMA myself. I don't have internal strength. I am not starring in Hong Kong movies and coming up with my own choreography. That said, I am very dangerous in my own right. I know many different styles that suit me better.

What style is the best? The style you use the most effectively.

If all I knew was Aikido, I might not be so good at fighting. If all I knew was Silat, I probably would be.

CMA is just a harder way to learn how to fight. It just tends to reward geniuses and the most devoted. You could spend 2 years learning Systema and would be very dangerous compared to most around you, but it might take 10 of that in CMA. The way some people think, it would be the reverse for them.

The long short is find out what will work for you. I once had a Wing Chun visitor outbox some of my MMA students. Wing Chun was made by a woman to teach other women how not to get beat up by their husbands and was originally designed for a 20 month study.

Find out what works for you.

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07-14-2016 08:55 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
That fact about Wing Chun is incredibly fascinating. Not to discount the inventor's plight. Are there any documentaries or books on this?
07-14-2016 09:10 PM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-14-2016 09:10 PM)WalkingMan Wrote:  That fact about Wing Chun is incredibly fascinating. Not to discount the inventor's plight. Are there any documentaries or books on this?

I never found anything, last time I looked years ago.

The academic accepted history, even talks about the oral history that is passed down, but was not written down. It was passed down to me from my old teachers, so that is why I know of it. I don't think it was written down anywhere.

One kinda bad thing about Wing Chun is that your experience learning it can be hugely different depending upon who you learn it from (lineage wise). This also includes inside knowledge about certain things related to Wing Chun. Overall, in my opinion, it's nothing to wave a red flag about.

Most instructors are more or less the same these days. Only the ones that allow regular sparring are different than others that do not. Some Wing Chun guys can box their asses off and give some Boxers a good run, although once you get to Golden Gloves level guys, it begins to drop off big time. Any good Wing Chun guy should invest in a wooden dummy and eventually train at boxing gyms for fitness and speed improvements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wing_Chun

Quote:The history of Wing Chun has been passed from teacher to student verbally rather than through documentation, making it difficult to confirm or clarify the differing accounts of Wing Chun's creation. Some have sought to apply the methods of higher criticism to the oral histories of Wing Chun and other Chinese martial arts.[1] Others have attempted to discern the origins of Wing Chun by determining the specific purpose of its techniques.

Wing Chun started to appear in independent third-party documentation during the era of the Wing Chun master Leung Jan, making the subsequent history of Wing Chun and its divergence into branches more amenable to documentary verification.

It is believed that a man had been a spectator to a fight between a snake and a white crane and, from this fight, combined with his knowledge of Shaolin kung fu, he developed the key elements that is known as the Wing Chun kung fu. Over time, more famous names such as Yip Man and Bruce Lee made the martial art known worldwide.

Quote:Oral histories[edit]
Yip Man Wing Chun[edit]
The oral history of the Yip Man branch of Wing Chun dates its creation to the reign of the Kangxi Emperor (1662–1722) in the Qing dynasty. After escaping the destruction of the Fujian Shaolin Monastery by Qing forces, the Abbess Ng Mui fled to the distant Daliang mountains on the border between Yunnan and Sichuan. One day, she came upon a fight between a snake and a crane (or other animal).

She took the lessons she learned from observing the fight between the two animals and combined them with her own knowledge of Shaolin kung fu to create a new style. Ng Mui often bought her bean curd at the tofu shop of Yim Yee (嚴二). Yim Yee had a daughter named Yim Wing Chun (嚴詠春) whom a local warlord was trying to force into marriage. Ng Mui taught her new fighting style to Yim Wing Chun, who used it to fend off the warlord once and for all. Yim Wing Chun eventually married a man she loved, Leung Bok-Chao (梁博儔), to whom she taught the fighting techniques that Ng Mui had passed on to her. Husband and wife in turn passed the new style on to others.

Yiu Kai Wing Chun[edit]
The oral history of the Yiu Kai lineage dates the creation of Wing Chun roughly a century later, to the early 19th century, and names Yim Wing Chun's father as Yim Sei (嚴四), a disciple at the Fujian Shaolin Temple who avoids persecution by fleeing with his daughter to Guangxi. Yim Wing Chun learned the Fujian Shaolin arts from her father and, from their raw material, created a new style after being inspired by a fight between a snake and a crane. She eventually married Leung Bok-Chao (梁博儔)—a Shaolin disciple just like Yim Wing Chun's father—and taught her fighting style to her new husband. The young couple began teaching Wing Chun's fighting style to others after moving to Guangdong Province in 1815, settling in the city of Zhaoqing.

Numerous variations on this story abound.

Theories[edit]
Other origins for Wing Chun have been suggested, typically involving connections to the Triads, revolutionary groups (often anti-Qing), or the Hakka people of southern China.

Almost all extant lineages of Wing Chun, with the exception of the Pao Fa Lien (刨花蓮) branch, and Hek Ki Boen branch claim to descend from the members of the mid-19th century cohort of the Red Boat Opera Company (紅船戲班).
Another legend has it that Wing Chun's lover, Leung Bok-Chao[2](who was a student of Choy gar) did in fact help to shape the style of Wing Chun. If so, then this is probably why the stances, and the short centred hand techniques have similarities in Choy gar and Wing Chun.

Espionage and assassination[edit]
According to one theory, opponents of the Qing Dynasty used the Red Boat Opera Company as a cover to disguise themselves as a troupe of travelling entertainers. Their identities as Chinese opera performers provided a cover for martial arts training; however, the flashy moves of opera style martial arts were not suited to the activities of espionage and assassination, which required specialized skills. Even though assassinations themselves would be carried out using poison or knives, their targets were usually protected by bodyguards who, on discovery of an intruder, would seize the person, call for help, and disable the person to be held for interrogation. Therefore, according to this hypothesis, Wing Chun was designed to deal with an opponent who seized rather than struck and to silence that opponent immediately. This would explain certain technical aspects of Wing Chun, such as its emphasis on close-range combat and its many strikes to the throat and diaphragm.

Several other Chinese martial arts come from Yongchun and the surrounding area, most notably the Fujianese style of White Crane, one branch of which is even called Wing Chun Bak Hok Kuen (永春白鶴拳), or Wing Chun White Crane boxing. Li Wenmao (李文茂), a historically verifiable opera performer and leader in the 1854–1856 Red Turban Rebellion in Foshan, is said to have been a Wing Chun White Crane practitioner.

There is a story that White Crane was created by Ng Mui after she was inspired by a fight between a snake and a crane, as in the Yip Man oral history of Wing Chun. Another White Crane legend states that the art was created by a young woman who combined her observation of cranes with the martial arts she learned from her father—in some versions a refugee from the destruction of the Fujian Shaolin Temple—and later taught her art to her husband, as in the Yiu Kai oral history of Wing Chun. Most stories name this young woman as Fong Chut-Neung (方七娘), to use the Cantonese pronunciation, but other stories name her Fong Wing Chun (方詠春) and the Shaolin disciple she marries as Hung Hei-Gun (洪熙官), to whom she teaches her Crane style which he combines with his Tiger style to create the famous Hung Family Tiger Crane style.

Oral history aside, the technical similarities of Wing Chun and Fujian White Crane suggest that the two are related. As Yip Man's student Leung Ting put it, "Wing Tsun System is derived from the Fukien System of kung fu. Their common features are that during fights, pugilists of these systems prefer short steps and close fighting, with their arms placed close to the chest, their elbows lowered and kept close to the flanks to offer it protection. Another characteristic of these two systems of kung fu is, unlike those of Kwangtung Province and Northern China, their boxing forms are rather simple".[3]

The origins of Wing Chun's branches[edit]

Wing Chun Lineages
Leung Jan (梁贊) is as far back as the lineages that descend from him—Yip Man, Yiu Kai, Pan Nam, Tam Yeung, Fung Sing—can reliably verify their genealogy. He was a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine in the city of Foshan in the 19th century. Leung Jan is said to have learned from Wong Wah-Bo (黃華寶) and Leung Yee-Tai (梁二娣), respectively the male and "female" martial leads of the Red Boat Opera Company, each of whom is said to have been an expert on different aspects of Wing Chun. According to legends from the Yip Man lineage, Leung Yee-Tai was a poler, that is, he used a pole to steer the Red Boat away from rocks and shoals, and was therefore chosen by the legendary Shaolin master Jee Shim himself to learn the six-and-a-half point pole. Leung Jan's students included his sons Leung Chun (梁春) and Leung Bik (梁壁) as well as "Wooden Man" Wah (木人華) and Chan Wah-Shun (陳華順) nicknamed "Moneychanger Wah" (找錢華), from whom the Yip Man, Yiu Kai, and Pan Nam lineages descend.

However, the Leung Jan lineage is not the only branch of the art. According to the traditions of the Cho family, Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai had as many as 11 peers in Wing Chun among their colleagues at the Red Boat Opera Company. For example, "Dai Fa Min" Kam (大花面錦), who played the role of the martial painted face, is the ancestor of the Way Yan lineage. The Yuen Kay Shan and Pan Nam branches descend from both Wong Wah-Bo and "Dai Fa Min" Kam. Gao Lo Chung ("Tall" Chung) and "Hung Gun" Biu (紅巾彪), also of the Red Boat Opera Company, both passed the art on to relatives, respectively, his son-in-law Yin Lee-Chung and the Wang (王) family. Outside the Red Boat Opera Company, a monk who had taken the name "Dai Dong Fung" (大東風) is named as its ancestor by the Pao Fa Lien (刨花蓮) lineage of Wing Chun.

In this cohort of the Red Boat Opera Company, the role of the virtuous "female" was played by Yik Kam (翼金), better known as "Ching-Deng" Kam because of the role he played. Cho Shun (曹順), who played the "Little Martial" (小武) role, was a student of Yik Kam. By passing the art on to his son Cho Dak-Sang (曹德生), Cho Shun established the Wing Chun lineage of the Cho family of Panyu village.

Recent history[edit]
Yip Man was the first Wing Chun master to teach the art openly in "Hong Kong" on a school fee basis. His students and their students therefore make up the majority of the practitioners of Wing Chun today (see his article for the outline of a family tree). Yip Man died in 1972. However, there is also a story that Yip Man gave money to Chan Wah Shun so that he could learn from him. Officially making Chan Wah Shun the first to teach the art openly on a school fee basis. However, Chan Wa Shun was military/ security based who was employed by Yip Man's father.

Recently three movies were made about Yip Man starring Donnie Yen, Ip Man Zero, Ip Man and Ip Man 2.

Yuen Kay Shan a senior student to Yip Man who was credited with winning 1000 death matches was known as Yuen the fifth of Foshan and had never been defeated. Though he never started a school himself, Yuen's lineage of Wing Chun was continued by his only disciple Sum Nung and the subsequent generations of students that descend from him such as Felix Leong who is alive and has been teaching for over 30 years at the same kwoon in Adelaide, Australia.[citation needed]

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07-15-2016 07:52 AM
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TravelerKai Away
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
I thought I would share this good question via PM related to Dominick Cruz's head movement looking weird when he dodges punches.

TravelerKai Wrote:



at the 0.33 is a good example.



That head movement is not weird. That goes back to what I spoke about with his boxing background. No doubt he probably likes Mayweather and other elusive fighters like Silva, and adapted that aspect of boxing to his game.

Let me break it down.

There are a few philosophies on slipping punches like that.

1. You use your own head as bait. You want a person to punch where your head was last seen at. If they take the bait, you side step and counterpunch/kick. (Silva is notorious for this)

2. Demoralize an opponent and frustrate them. This is 100% mental game. A frustrated opponent will make a much bigger mistake once they have gotten mad. (Mayweather is notorious for that)

3. Part of being defensively responsible. You do not take hit's that are relatively easy to evade, by being in a position to counter.

4. Entices the opponent to drop their guard lower and lower (due to frustration or constant chasing)

5. These types of slips are good for defending against Aggressive Counter Punchers, Peekaboo fighters (Mike Tyson or Sean Sherk), or other variations of high pace fighters. You have to use your reach (especially if you have that advantage), and use alot of straights/crosses to keep the opponent at bay.

There are downsides to these defense styles. Obviously you risk getting hit alot higher depending upon your skill, speed, and hand-eye-coordination. Like number 1 for example, what if the opponent misses where your head was, and hits you flush in the face on accident? What if they use a hook, that you misjudge the full arc on?


There might be a few more an expert boxing coach might know that I did not think about. If some of you guys know any I missed, please share with the group.

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07-15-2016 09:08 AM
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
Great Data Sheet, Kai. I just thought I would ad that the Ng Mui creation od Wing Chun story is a myth. I can elaborate on this if anyone is interested. There were 5 creators of the style 3 Buddhists and 2 Taoists. Bai Mei (White Eyebrow) was one of them. The reason it was distilled from the 5 animal Shaolin styles in addition to some of the Taoist styles_Hsing-I, Baguazheng was that these traditional CMA's took lifetimes to master as well as many being incomplete for reasons you mentioned (traditional Chinese secrecy, Masters dying without passing on the whole sysytem, etc.) So the 5 originators distilled the animal styles, mostly snake and crane, then added elements of the Taoist arts into a system that laymen could learn it quickly in order to create a citizen army to" defeat the Ching and restore the Ming" which was their rallying cry.

I began learning Wing Chun at 12 years old, I was lucky to have my soccer coach who was a Sifu in the Wong Sheung Leung lineage. I completed the whole system before I graduated high school then progressed to Western Boxing which I found much more effective in street fights.

The legend of WC in Hong Kong was mostly credited to WSL and his illegal rooftop Letai matches which he is reported to have won over 60 and was undefeated. Many people unfamiliar with CMA dont realize that Sifus dont teach beginners. It is predicated on the Sihing-Sidai relationship. Advanced students teach beginners. Sifu just observes and interacts with the highest level students. Ip man technically never taught Bruce Lee, WSL did, and as mentioned like William Cheung (whose father gave Ip Man a home to teach his son) only learned Si Lum Tau and Chum Kiu, the first two sets before they were proficient enough to start winning the many HK gang streetfights they were involved in. William Cheung (according to my Sifu) also accompanied Ip Man's daily trips to the Opium dens and brothels as somewhat of a bodyguard. Ip Man was a very reluctant teacher to say the least. The three movies have very little historical basis.

Eventually both Bruce and William Cheung got into so much trouble fighting their parents sent them abroad. WC to Australia and Bruce Lee to the US. Neither learned Biu Jee (the third and final non-weapons based system, or the Long Pole, Butterfly swords or the 108 Mook Jong set.) That is the beauty of WC is that good athletes can advance very quickly whereas I have seen many people train for years without ever fully grasping its integral concepts or practicing at a level where a beginning boxer couldn't knock them out.Wing Chun has the most myths added to its history than almost any MA.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of many of the worlds arts. I still believe from real world experience that Western Boxing, Muay Thai, and Phillipino Boxing are the most efficient systems for streetfighting with the caveat that a system is only as good as its practitioner. Bruce was exceptional because of his work ethic, natural athleticism as well as his history of being a champion ballroom dancer. His biggest asset, like William Cheung, was his willingness (like WSL) to test his skill in real life situations.

Ultimately there is no better system, just better athletes and fighters.

Also like to add I have met Master Chen. Chen style Tai Chi is truly an amazing martial art and the concept of Fa Jing should be learned by any martial artists. I used to compete in push hands competitions and even won an open weight class competition. I still love Boxing and it will always be my go to art in any self defense situation, there is a reason MMA is called Mixed Martial Arts. There is really no such thing as a "complete system" which is why Bruce Lee attempted to create one with JKD.

Kai, I would love for you to PM me the story of Bruce Lee and his fight with the Dim Mak expert.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2016 11:29 AM by AboveAverageJoe.)
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RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
TK have you ever thought about starting a Martial Arts history tour through China or something?

I could learn about this stuff for hours. I'd be your first customer!

Let me know if you have any blog article ideas that you want me to write for your future website Wink
07-18-2016 12:27 PM
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(07-18-2016 11:17 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  Great Data Sheet, Kai. I just thought I would ad that the Ng Mui creation od Wing Chun story is a myth. I can elaborate on this if anyone is interested. There were 5 creators of the style 3 Buddhists and 2 Taoists. Bai Mei (White Eyebrow) was one of them. The reason it was distilled from the 5 animal Shaolin styles in addition to some of the Taoist styles_Hsing-I, Baguazheng was that these traditional CMA's took lifetimes to master as well as many being incomplete for reasons you mentioned (traditional Chinese secrecy, Masters dying without passing on the whole sysytem, etc.) So the 5 originators distilled the animal styles, mostly snake and crane, then added elements of the Taoist arts into a system that laymen could learn it quickly in order to create a citizen army to" defeat the Ching and restore the Ming" which was their rallying cry.

I began learning Wing Chun at 12 years old, I was lucky to have my soccer coach who was a Sifu in the Wong Sheung Leung lineage. I completed the whole system before I graduated high school then progressed to Western Boxing which I found much more effective in street fights.

The legend of WC in Hong Kong was mostly credited to WSL and his illegal rooftop Letai matches which he is reported to have won over 60 and was undefeated. Many people unfamiliar with CMA dont realize that Sifus dont teach beginners. It is predicated on the Sihing-Sidai relationship. Advanced students teach beginners. Sifu just observes and interacts with the highest level students. Ip man technically never taught Bruce Lee, WSL did, and as mentioned like William Cheung (whose father gave Ip Man a home to teach his son) only learned Si Lum Tau and Chum Kiu, the first two sets before they were proficient enough to start winning the many HK gang streetfights they were involved in. William Cheung (according to my Sifu) also accompanied Ip Man's daily trips to the Opium dens and brothels as somewhat of a bodyguard. Ip Man was a very reluctant teacher to say the least. The three movies have very little historical basis.

Eventually both Bruce and William Cheung got into so much trouble fighting their parents sent them abroad. WC to Australia and Bruce Lee to the US. Neither learned Biu Jee (the third and final non-weapons based system, or the Long Pole, Butterfly swords or the 108 Mook Jong set.) That is the beauty of WC is that good athletes can advance very quickly whereas I have seen many people train for years without ever fully grasping its integral concepts or practicing at a level where a beginning boxer couldn't knock them out.Wing Chun has the most myths added to its history than almost any MA.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of many of the worlds arts. I still believe from real world experience that Western Boxing, Muay Thai, and Phillipino Boxing are the most efficient systems for streetfighting with the caveat that a system is only as good as its practitioner. Bruce was exceptional because of his work ethic, natural athleticism as well as his history of being a champion ballroom dancer. His biggest asset, like William Cheung, was his willingness (like WSL) to test his skill in real life situations.

Ultimately there is no better system, just better athletes and fighters.

Also like to add I have met Master Chen. Chen style Tai Chi is truly an amazing martial art and the concept of Fa Jing should be learned by any martial artists. I used to compete in push hands competitions and even won an open weight class competition. I still love Boxing and it will always be my go to art in any self defense situation, there is a reason MMA is called Mixed Martial Arts. There is really no such thing as a "complete system" which is why Bruce Lee attempted to create one with JKD.

Kai, I would love for you to PM me the story of Bruce Lee and his fight with the Dim Mak expert.

I have heard versions of that story as well. Not very certain about how much is it is true. I think there might be a little truth to all of it in some regards. Many tried to simplify Shaolin Gong Fu around that time into something easier to learn. Hung Gar also fits this as well. Hung Gar and Wing Chun are usually identified as Southern Styles in general, even though they are very alike in some ways but very different in others. I do think she tooled the Wing Chun she knew to help battered women though, even if she had not originally came up with concept of Wing Chun itself. She had male students as well.

You can tell based upon the move sets that it definitely is easier for women to learn and use. Very little power or strength is needed if used correctly. Feints and hidden punches (deception). The lack of stronger kicks, no deep stances, show that is it a "hold your ground" style. Perhaps the first of it's kind. A battered woman likely is cornered by walls, etc. Something like Hung Gar is more broad, needs more room to work, and has alot more movesets for more situations.

Not calling it a feminine martial art, but it's movesets fit that narrative better than it probably should.

The weapons training in Wing Chun have always made me suspicious about who exactly added that and more importantly, WHEN.

All in all, it's interesting stuff. Please share more of the history you have heard if possible. Wing Chun may have alot of myths, and I agree on that, but I think CMA as a whole has much more. Over the years I have heard all kinds of wild shit or researched and found some on my own. I guess it is par for the course when you have a main system that is damn near 5,000 years old and splintered into nearly 100 main sub-systems and very little was written down.

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07-18-2016 12:33 PM
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(07-18-2016 12:27 PM)WalkingMan Wrote:  TK have you ever thought about starting a Martial Arts history tour through China or something?

I could learn about this stuff for hours. I'd be your first customer!

Let me know if you have any blog article ideas that you want me to write for your future website Wink

Thanks for the kind remarks, but you would be the only customer. Most of this stuff is just martial arts nerd fodder. Besides, I still have not gone to Fujian yet my ownself. I will take a train there when I get back to China and check out whatever I can find there. If I see anything interesting I'll post about it in here and I will take photos if I can.

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Post: #96
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-14-2016 03:26 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Really deep video from these Kali/FMA guys.

The conversation they are having is really good and is some very real talk. Any skeptic of knife fighting or self defense outside of guns should watch this.




One thing to note about FMA as well is that many of the styles actually do spar. They'll put on gloves and helmets and beat the shit out of each other with sticks or aluminum knives.

Also, just like the Philippines has dozens of different dialects, there are also dozens of different FMA martial art styles.

There's stuff like Pekiti Tirsia Kali, which focuses on the more combat oriented aspects; Doce Pares, which leans more towards styles and forms; and tons of things in between, from Lightning Scientific Arnis to Rapido Realismo to Modern Arnis.

The style that you see in most of the Hollywood movies is one created by Dan Inosanto, one of Bruce Lee's old friends and teachers. I would guess that would be the least stick-based style, but I don't think there are a ton of places that teach it outside of his school in California.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2016 02:26 PM by Enigma.)
07-18-2016 02:25 PM
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HonantheBarbarian Offline
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Post: #97
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
Kai,

What is your opinion of Serrada, and how is it similar/different to Silat?
07-18-2016 04:21 PM
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TravelerKai Away
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Post: #98
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-18-2016 04:21 PM)HonantheBarbarian Wrote:  Kai,

What is your opinion of Serrada, and how is it similar/different to Silat?

Serrada is a type of FMA/Escrima that has a specialty of being very close quarters combat or slightly different on footwork. I honestly cannot tell you the differences between that and something like those other FMAs Enigma knows.

Pencak Silat is different from FMA, in that it has alot more striking and SMJ/Grappling techniques. Not to say FMA does not have that, it's just Pencak Silat has alot more focus on it.

My own personal opinion or advice to anyone wanting to go the FMA/Silat route. Pick one first and train it hard. After a few years or however long it takes you to get proficient, take some lessons in the other one or go to seminars. They both have the same moves for the most part, just different progressions and style using the same stuff.

If you want to fight multiple persons and be really good at that, you probably want to go the Silat route. If I could do it all over again, I would have done Silat first had I known better. Some FMA schools have expertise in hand to hand and multiple opponents, but you should call/visit and interview the instructor to make sure they do this. Some FMA schools do multiple opponents with sticks. That's useful for sticks and knives only. If you do not have either on you in a bad street fight, you need to know what to do with just your hands. Silat in Indonesia has non weapon fighting tournaments, I don't think I have ever seen one for FMA, although Enigma may have.

If you are thinking, Silat must be better than FMA, that isn't the case. Silat is more like Japanese JuJitsu. They teach hand to hand stuff, then teach you weapons (usually this is the case). FMA is teaching you knife fighting from day one pretty much (stick moves translates into knives, foot movements, etc.). Then I have usually seen FMA schools do the hand to hand fighting stuff afterwards. If you are an older person with limited mobility issues, FMA may be better for you especially if you can legally carry a knife/hidden belt talon or karambit.

I guess this is why Enigma brought up school philosophy before, what you get to learn and maybe the order of it differs from the major schools.

*Paging Enigma!*

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07-19-2016 09:01 AM
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Post: #99
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-19-2016 09:01 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(07-18-2016 04:21 PM)HonantheBarbarian Wrote:  Kai,

What is your opinion of Serrada, and how is it similar/different to Silat?

Serrada is a type of FMA/Escrima that has a specialty of being very close quarters combat or slightly different on footwork. I honestly cannot tell you the differences between that and something like those other FMAs Enigma knows.

Pencak Silat is different from FMA, in that it has alot more striking and SMJ/Grappling techniques. Not to say FMA does not have that, it's just Pencak Silat has alot more focus on it.

My own personal opinion or advice to anyone wanting to go the FMA/Silat route. Pick one first and train it hard. After a few years or however long it takes you to get proficient, take some lessons in the other one or go to seminars. They both have the same moves for the most part, just different progressions and style using the same stuff.

If you want to fight multiple persons and be really good at that, you probably want to go the Silat route. If I could do it all over again, I would have done Silat first had I known better. Some FMA schools have expertise in hand to hand and multiple opponents, but you should call/visit and interview the instructor to make sure they do this. Some FMA schools do multiple opponents with sticks. That's useful for sticks and knives only. If you do not have either on you in a bad street fight, you need to know what to do with just your hands. Silat in Indonesia has non weapon fighting tournaments, I don't think I have ever seen one for FMA, although Enigma may have.

If you are thinking, Silat must be better than FMA, that isn't the case. Silat is more like Japanese JuJitsu. They teach hand to hand stuff, then teach you weapons (usually this is the case). FMA is teaching you knife fighting from day one pretty much (stick moves translates into knives, foot movements, etc.). Then I have usually seen FMA schools do the hand to hand fighting stuff afterwards. If you are an older person with limited mobility issues, FMA may be better for you especially if you can legally carry a knife/hidden belt talon or karambit.

I guess this is why Enigma brought up school philosophy before, what you get to learn and maybe the order of it differs from the major schools.

*Paging Enigma!*

To be clear, I'm not an expert on FMA or anything. There used to be a ton of info on the different styles over on a forum called Martial Arts Planet that I happened to read through and learned some stuff about it, but it looks the old posts have been wiped recently.

There is actually Silat in the Philippines. It came to the southern Phils the same way Islam did, it just didn't spread like the latter.

I would say Kai's comments about the differences between FMA and Silat seem pretty accurate from what I know.

The sticks in FMA are supposed to translate to any weapon and even the hands, that's why they start with those.

If you remember in the Bourne Ultimatum, he fights with everything from his fists to a rolled newspaper to a pen to a hardcover book. That's basically the idea behind FMA.

That being said, there is a lot of differences between the many styles.

I've never heard of Serrada. It looks like it was created by a Fil-Am in the US. Honestly, just from looking at a video (again, not an expert) it looks somewhat strange compared to other FMA I've seen and seems to contain a lot of inefficient movement.

You can find some of the other more notable styles listed here, as well as some of the history behind the older PI-based styles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ar...ctitioners
07-19-2016 12:49 PM
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Post: #100
RE: TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet
(07-19-2016 12:49 PM)Enigma Wrote:  
(07-19-2016 09:01 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  
(07-18-2016 04:21 PM)HonantheBarbarian Wrote:  Kai,

What is your opinion of Serrada, and how is it similar/different to Silat?

Serrada is a type of FMA/Escrima that has a specialty of being very close quarters combat or slightly different on footwork. I honestly cannot tell you the differences between that and something like those other FMAs Enigma knows.

Pencak Silat is different from FMA, in that it has alot more striking and SMJ/Grappling techniques. Not to say FMA does not have that, it's just Pencak Silat has alot more focus on it.

My own personal opinion or advice to anyone wanting to go the FMA/Silat route. Pick one first and train it hard. After a few years or however long it takes you to get proficient, take some lessons in the other one or go to seminars. They both have the same moves for the most part, just different progressions and style using the same stuff.

If you want to fight multiple persons and be really good at that, you probably want to go the Silat route. If I could do it all over again, I would have done Silat first had I known better. Some FMA schools have expertise in hand to hand and multiple opponents, but you should call/visit and interview the instructor to make sure they do this. Some FMA schools do multiple opponents with sticks. That's useful for sticks and knives only. If you do not have either on you in a bad street fight, you need to know what to do with just your hands. Silat in Indonesia has non weapon fighting tournaments, I don't think I have ever seen one for FMA, although Enigma may have.

If you are thinking, Silat must be better than FMA, that isn't the case. Silat is more like Japanese JuJitsu. They teach hand to hand stuff, then teach you weapons (usually this is the case). FMA is teaching you knife fighting from day one pretty much (stick moves translates into knives, foot movements, etc.). Then I have usually seen FMA schools do the hand to hand fighting stuff afterwards. If you are an older person with limited mobility issues, FMA may be better for you especially if you can legally carry a knife/hidden belt talon or karambit.

I guess this is why Enigma brought up school philosophy before, what you get to learn and maybe the order of it differs from the major schools.

*Paging Enigma!*

To be clear, I'm not an expert on FMA or anything. There used to be a ton of info on the different styles over on a forum called Martial Arts Planet that I happened to read through and learned some stuff about it, but it looks the old posts have been wiped recently.

There is actually Silat in the Philippines. It came to the southern Phils the same way Islam did, it just didn't spread like the latter.

I would say Kai's comments about the differences between FMA and Silat seem pretty accurate from what I know.

The sticks in FMA are supposed to translate to any weapon and even the hands, that's why they start with those.

If you remember in the Bourne Ultimatum, he fights with everything from his fists to a rolled newspaper to a pen to a hardcover book. That's basically the idea behind FMA.

That being said, there is a lot of differences between the many styles.

I've never heard of Serrada. It looks like it was created by a Fil-Am in the US. Honestly, just from looking at a video (again, not an expert) it looks somewhat strange compared to other FMA I've seen and seems to contain a lot of inefficient movement.

You can find some of the other more notable styles listed here, as well as some of the history behind the older PI-based styles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ar...ctitioners

They may be referring to Serrada Escrima that was brought to America by Angel Cabales. Jimmy Tacosa is still teaching it under Tacosa/ Serrada Escrima.

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07-19-2016 05:16 PM
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