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The Fermentation Thread
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RexImperator Offline
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Post: #26
RE: The Fermentation Thread
With beer everything has to be extremely clean and sanitized. With wine and cider, less so, because the acidic environment and sulfites discourage the bad stuff.

With soda you don't keep it around very long, and it only ferments for two days in order to carbonate.

Star San is a good sanitizer.

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07-19-2016 10:09 AM
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Post: #27
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Used to do sauerkraut and kimchi. Also kefir, until i went on vacation and tried to freeze the 'grains' but they died when i came back. I have experimented with kombucha but that shit got moldy quick. Currently fermenting some cucumbers, so far looking good.
07-20-2016 04:05 AM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-18-2016 04:47 PM)bootyhuntah Wrote:  Love the thread. I've been doing sourdough (from a home-grown wild yeast starter) for the past 2 months or so and I still haven't made one that I've loved, although I've gotten it close. I fear that I'm actually over-fermenting the dough and also hydrating it too much. This is evidenced by the fact that it loses a lot of it's structure when I bake on my baking steel and the gluten really hasn't developed well enough, perhaps due to the high acidity. But who knows. Will keep experimenting with this and following the thread.

It's highly unlikely your dough is over hydrated.

Right now I'm still trying to master the basic country loaf from Tartine Bread. It's a 75% hydration dough. Each batch gets better; I know my problem is I get impatient with the leaven and start my bulk fermentation before the leaven is ready. I highly recommend the book. If your gluten hasn't developed enough it's highly possible you're not giving it a long enough bulk fermentation. I go for 4 hours at 78F. Then I shape, bench rest for 20 min, shape again and proof for another 4 hours or so.

It's also likely your baking medium doesn't have nearly enough steam to get an oven spring. Your dough needs to be in a very humid environment to rise, otherwise the crust forms prematurely and inhibits expansion.

Check out this video, it's pretty spot on:



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(This post was last modified: 07-23-2016 01:39 AM by Veloce.)
07-23-2016 01:37 AM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #29
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-19-2016 08:18 AM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  Dumb question, but how do you guys go about straining without making a mess?

Do you use a strainer with a depression, or leave some slack in the cheesecloth to avoid the solid chunks from falling off the sides?

On another note, I've watched a handful of youtube videos on homebrewing and winemaking, and it looks nowhere near as simple as the process you described. Most of the steps involved an obsessive compulsive sterilization of the equipment involved. Is this mostly unnecessary in your experience?

straining what?

I strained my vinegar through a chinois several times. You can use cheesecloth if you want to clarify it further. I'm aware that there are other clarification techniques but I don't find it necessary. This is a chinois:

[Image: 311DBGTpc5L._AC_US160_.jpg]

Regarding apple cider, I have a few gallons going right now. I'm going super minimalist: I got a bunch of apples from the orchard, juiced them in a Breville (took maybe 30 min) and funneled it into a carboy. I let the foam subside for a day and now I've got it airlocked. Just letting the natural yeasts do their thing. Gonna let it sit for a month, rack it, then another month, then bottle ferment it. I'm going for completely dry, and hopefully I'll wind up with something like dry Normandie cider, which I love. I'll get back to you guys sometime in September Banana

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(This post was last modified: 07-23-2016 01:56 AM by Veloce.)
07-23-2016 01:54 AM
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frozen-ace Offline
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Post: #30
RE: The Fermentation Thread
I just ordered some sea salt, 16oz mason jars, 4oz mason jars to hold the floaters down, and a cheesecloth. I'm going to try and ferment some cabbage (it's about the only produce I can buy). I tried it once before but it didn't turn out right. I think I used too much salt. I also kept it in the fridge, maybe I need to use less salt and keep it out of the fridge for a while.
07-23-2016 03:45 AM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #31
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-23-2016 03:45 AM)frozen-ace Wrote:  I just ordered some sea salt, 16oz mason jars, 4oz mason jars to hold the floaters down, and a cheesecloth. I'm going to try and ferment some cabbage (it's about the only produce I can buy). I tried it once before but it didn't turn out right. I think I used too much salt. I also kept it in the fridge, maybe I need to use less salt and keep it out of the fridge for a while.

When salting your brine, just do it to taste. I never use a recipe. Think about how salty you like a steak or a burger; make your brine that salty.

And yes, in order to get fermentation going, you need to leave it out at room temperature. Could take 3 days, could take a week. Your cabbage needs to be submerged. It needs air, but something to keep flies from laying eggs. Either a kitchen towel or some cheesecloth secured in place with a rubber band. When your cabbage is clearly fermenting (bubbles form, gets cloudy, tastes funky) then you can transfer to a fridge.

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TEAM NO APPS

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07-23-2016 11:48 AM
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RexImperator Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Quote:I'm going for completely dry, and hopefully I'll wind up with something like dry Normandie cider, which I love.


Wild yeast can be a crapshoot...might turn out OK but it might stall. Champagne or Cider yeast makes a dry cider. Ale yeast makes a sweeter cider. It's also a good idea to add some tannin unless the apples were a variety specifically grown for cider.

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et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno
07-23-2016 11:57 AM
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toejam Offline
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Post: #33
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-18-2016 06:10 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  ----snipped---

Once the temperature is no warmer than lukewarm, sprinkle in some champagne/wine/beer/ale yeast. You will need hardly any, less than a tenth of a packet. I use Red Star Premier Blanc yeast.

----snipped----

Does the yeast produce or help ptoduce alcohol? I don't drink alcohol but want to try the ginger beer as you ve described it above.
07-23-2016 12:15 PM
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RexImperator Offline
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Post: #34
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Yes it does, but it is an extremely minuscule amount, since the fermentation is so short.

An alternative is to use a CO2 tank and force carbonate the soda.

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et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno
07-23-2016 12:17 PM
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toejam Offline
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Post: #35
RE: The Fermentation Thread
I'd have to have someone else drink it to see how low the alcohol content is. Either way its game on.
07-23-2016 04:36 PM
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Balkan Offline
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Post: #36
RE: The Fermentation Thread
So I made yogurt a few days ago. I followed the recipe Veloce outlined. Heat 1 quart of milk to 180F, let cool to 115-120F, add half cup of starter yogurt or previous batch yogurt. Leave out at 115-120F. I left mine outside in the sun for ~6 hours and it was a perfect 120F when I would check the milk temperature. Since I didn't have a previous batch of yogurt, I used the most natural yogurt I found at whole foods, which was a full fat (4%) icelandic skyr.

Equipment:
-1 quart organic Strauss whole milk
-starter yogurt
-1L glass container
-cheesecloth
-thermometer

At first there didn't appear to be that much whey, but after straining the yogurt through the cheesecloth a good ~20oz of liquid came out. I like thicker yogurt so I got out as much whey as possible. The whey itself is quite good and very refreshing.

The yogurt ended up tasting great. Slightly tangy, but not to the degree of many store bought greek yogurts. It also has a pleasantly strange creamy flavor profile I've never tasted before. I didn't add any vanilla, anise, cardamom cloves etc. so there's a lot of potential to customize this yogurt even more. Will be making more yogurt in the future.

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(This post was last modified: 07-23-2016 08:10 PM by Balkan.)
07-23-2016 08:09 PM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #37
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-23-2016 11:57 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  
Quote:I'm going for completely dry, and hopefully I'll wind up with something like dry Normandie cider, which I love.


Wild yeast can be a crapshoot...might turn out OK but it might stall. Champagne or Cider yeast makes a dry cider. Ale yeast makes a sweeter cider. It's also a good idea to add some tannin unless the apples were a variety specifically grown for cider.

Yeah I did a bit of reading up and I figure the racking will re-start the yeast if need be. As for tannin I was thinking of jacking a barrel at work they use for barrel aged cocktails, drink some of my cider fresh and then barrel age it for 3-6 months before bottle ferment. I'm still experimenting with all this stuff and want to try a lot of different things before settling on a method that I like.

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07-24-2016 12:58 AM
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Quintus Curtius Offline
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Post: #38
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Bravo to Veloce for this thread. He's got so much culinary knowledge that it's just amazing.

I fooled around with the homemade yogurt idea a few years back and even bought one of those yogurt "makers." It's really just a special kind of electric container. But making yogurt was not so easy. Very temperamental, and for me it was easier just to buy it.

After reading this thread, I'm motivated to try again.

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07-24-2016 01:10 AM
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frozen-ace Offline
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Post: #39
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-23-2016 11:48 AM)Veloce Wrote:  
(07-23-2016 03:45 AM)frozen-ace Wrote:  I just ordered some sea salt, 16oz mason jars, 4oz mason jars to hold the floaters down, and a cheesecloth. I'm going to try and ferment some cabbage (it's about the only produce I can buy). I tried it once before but it didn't turn out right. I think I used too much salt. I also kept it in the fridge, maybe I need to use less salt and keep it out of the fridge for a while.

When salting your brine, just do it to taste. I never use a recipe. Think about how salty you like a steak or a burger; make your brine that salty.

And yes, in order to get fermentation going, you need to leave it out at room temperature. Could take 3 days, could take a week. Your cabbage needs to be submerged. It needs air, but something to keep flies from laying eggs. Either a kitchen towel or some cheesecloth secured in place with a rubber band. When your cabbage is clearly fermenting (bubbles form, gets cloudy, tastes funky) then you can transfer to a fridge.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to trying it again, I definitely over did it with the salt. I'll leave it out next time before putting it in the fridge. Do you have a preference of green cabbage vs red cabbage? I used to never eat cabbage, and now it's one of my main staples. I want to try fermenting carrots too. I went down to pick some up some carrots and cabbage to be ready when the jars show up but there was no produce. Oh well maybe I'll try in a week or two.

What are your thoughts on fermenting fruit? Like blueberries? (not for alcohol)
07-24-2016 02:45 AM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #40
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-24-2016 02:45 AM)frozen-ace Wrote:  
(07-23-2016 11:48 AM)Veloce Wrote:  
(07-23-2016 03:45 AM)frozen-ace Wrote:  I just ordered some sea salt, 16oz mason jars, 4oz mason jars to hold the floaters down, and a cheesecloth. I'm going to try and ferment some cabbage (it's about the only produce I can buy). I tried it once before but it didn't turn out right. I think I used too much salt. I also kept it in the fridge, maybe I need to use less salt and keep it out of the fridge for a while.

When salting your brine, just do it to taste. I never use a recipe. Think about how salty you like a steak or a burger; make your brine that salty.

And yes, in order to get fermentation going, you need to leave it out at room temperature. Could take 3 days, could take a week. Your cabbage needs to be submerged. It needs air, but something to keep flies from laying eggs. Either a kitchen towel or some cheesecloth secured in place with a rubber band. When your cabbage is clearly fermenting (bubbles form, gets cloudy, tastes funky) then you can transfer to a fridge.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to trying it again, I definitely over did it with the salt. I'll leave it out next time before putting it in the fridge. Do you have a preference of green cabbage vs red cabbage? I used to never eat cabbage, and now it's one of my main staples. I want to try fermenting carrots too. I went down to pick some up some carrots and cabbage to be ready when the jars show up but there was no produce. Oh well maybe I'll try in a week or two.

What are your thoughts on fermenting fruit? Like blueberries? (not for alcohol)

Carrots have been the surprise hit out of all my fermented veggies. I highly recommend them and I'm due to start another batch.

Green vs red cabbage doesn't matter, you could mix them and do both in the same batch, but it'll all eventually turn the same color (pink). Fermenting vegetables slowly leaches the pigment from them, so something that was dark green will turn light green, anything red or purple will turn pink. I fermented red radishes (super funky) and they're now pink.

Fermenting fruit will invariably convert sugar to alcohol and most likely will develop some vinegar. Ethanol (alcohol) plus oxygen will attract what's called acetobacter, or bacteria whose byproduct is acetic acid. To counteract acetobacter you need to close access to oxygen, either by transferring your ferment into a narrow container (like a wine bottle) or use an air lock, which you can buy for 4-5 bucks. Another issue is mold; if you're fermenting in an open air container that contains sugar you will attract bad molds. To counteract this you need to stir several times for the first few days and then once per day for another few days. Eventually after 7-10 days the yeasts *should* prevent bad molds from forming. You can then enjoy lightly fermented, lightly alcoholic fruit. You can ferment your fruit in a sugar solution (say 2 cups sugar per gallon), sweetness is totally adjustable to your taste, and drink it like a lightly fermented punch, or air lock it and ferment it further for a fruit wine.

Or you can ferment green fruit in salt brine just like you would cabbage. You can pickle green strawberries, green tomatoes, unripe peaches, green apples. It's super easy, very uncommon but very delicious. Pair pickled green strawberries with cheese or a very rich meat course for some next level shit.

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(This post was last modified: 07-24-2016 12:15 PM by Veloce.)
07-24-2016 12:15 PM
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Post: #41
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Fermenting fruit sounds much more difficult than putting cabbage in a salt brine and walking away. That's going to be a project for another day.

(07-24-2016 12:15 PM)Veloce Wrote:  Or you can ferment green fruit in salt brine just like you would cabbage. You can pickle green strawberries, green tomatoes, unripe peaches, green apples. It's super easy, very uncommon but very delicious. Pair pickled green strawberries with cheese or a very rich meat course for some next level shit.

That sounds amazing. It has to be unripe fruit to turn out right? I have access to cabbage, carrots, onion, potato, red apples. Sometimes a green pear, but really there's no green fruit or any unripe fruit. There are a couple different berries out on the tundra right now, but I haven't seen any that are unripe. Maybe next year I'll get an early start and see if I can pick some green blueberries.
07-24-2016 11:06 PM
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Post: #42
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Anyone making their own kombucha?

I love the stuff, kefir too, but hate paying $4/bottle.
09-19-2016 10:21 AM
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Post: #43
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(07-23-2016 11:57 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  
Quote:I'm going for completely dry, and hopefully I'll wind up with something like dry Normandie cider, which I love.


Wild yeast can be a crapshoot...might turn out OK but it might stall. Champagne or Cider yeast makes a dry cider. Ale yeast makes a sweeter cider. It's also a good idea to add some tannin unless the apples were a variety specifically grown for cider.

Throw some crab apples in there for tannins.

Great thread guys.

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09-19-2016 10:30 AM
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Post: #44
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Is there a lot of trial and error needed to get the hang of making your own fermented foods?
09-24-2017 04:26 PM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #45
RE: The Fermentation Thread
(09-24-2017 04:26 PM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  Is there a lot of trial and error needed to get the hang of making your own fermented foods?

Not at all. For basic ferments like cabbage, it's almost idiot proof providing you ferment it in a fairly cool, clean environment.

Slice cabbage. Salt cabbage. Wait an hour. Crush cabbage by hand, squeezing out the liquid (but saving the liquid) Pack the cabbage into a nonreactive container. Pour the cabbage water over the top. If the cabbage is not totally submerged, add filtered water until it's covered by a half inch of water. Cover with cheesecloth or a kitchen towel. Wait 5-7 days.

That's it.

Ferments can and will go wrong. But for basic fermented vegetables, what I just wrote will be successful damn near every time.

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09-24-2017 05:01 PM
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Veloce Offline
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Post: #46
RE: The Fermentation Thread
Watch this eccentric faggot break it down for you. This 6 minute video covers at least 90% of fermented vegetables.




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09-24-2017 05:05 PM
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