Post: #26

(07-22-2016 12:02 AM)TheMaleBrain Wrote:  Took your advice and looked at the feed.
Most english news sites there are right-wing. There are very little left wing sites there (Haaretz being one).
Also - Israel is just very nationalist in its agenda. We have very little english counterparts of "Gawker" and others. It is just that.

You are correct.

Now, we all ask ourselves why Jewish people are so monolithically Right Wing in Israel to the extent that there are "very little Left Wing sites there" and to the extent that "Israel is just very nationalist in its agenda", but in contrast why Jewish people are the furthest Left of any group outside of Israel?

Furthermore, why does Google enforce this political tone in Israel, in contrast with never presenting a balanced political tone for the USA (let alone a Right Wing tone) when Google is a company based in the USA and owned by Jewish men?

It could easily choose to present a less liberal slant in its feeds to the USA, or a more liberal slant for Israel. It is not beholden to either political climate, and in fact largely defines the political climate today. Yet, Google chooses to enforce very different political tones for the West outside of Israel and in Israel.

I wonder how many Jewish pundits and political personalities I could count that have compared Donald Trump to Hitler, while endorsing or at least leaving Netanyahu be.

Is there a single Jewish business or political leader In Israel, today, that would dare try to get away with let, alone think about, punishing the masses for rejecting transvestite use of women's bathrooms in Israel? Because a Jewish leader in the USA is using punishment to enforce this social abomination on the bad conservative goyim in the USA.

NBA Pulls All-Star Game From North Carolina Over Transgender Bathroom Law

Simply, you ask for conservatives to seek friendship in nationalism with Israel, but I only ever seeing support for that friendship being delivered in a single direction in favor of Israel.

Post: #27

Two links relevant to this discussion:

https://redice.tv/news/european-jewish-c...-interests

http://newobserveronline.com/jews-no-lim...in-israel/

Post: #28

(07-21-2016 08:13 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  I am Culture of Critique skeptic myself, but to say any ethnic group works in total unison to undermine or conspire against all others is absurd. No people in history have shown a collective cohesiveness to individually conspire and direct their products to such a collective task. I'm also not saying that other men here has made such a statement. I mention this because this assumption sometimes looms over discussions of this nature, either by misunderstanding or assumption again.

You're right, there's ample evidence throughout history of Christians and crypto-Christians entering nearly every other independent society and

• Infiltrating and controlling their media outlets
• Controlling their money supply, dragging them into conflicts to encourage them to create a central bank where financial leverage can be used against them.
• Establishing themselves in key positions in nearly every other geopolitical institution of importance
• Setting up pseudolegal organizations to defame any individual or organization that notices their beliefs of racial supremacy or documents their criminal activity
• Establishing territories that allow members escape punishment for their criminal activity through a right to return and one sided extradition laws.
• Resisting assimilation into their host society over thousands of years, while attempting to exert social subversion in their host countries.
• Hiding their Christian identity over hundreds of years in a host society
• Viewing people in their host cultures as less than human, calling for their enslavement as a religious goal.
• Viewing any oaths they make to non-Christians as null and void
• etc

Of course, it would be oversimplifying things to say that all Jews are complicit in the actions of their co-ethnics. In reality, the common man has little control over what the most powerful members of their society do without access to an equally organized and powerful institution. I suspect your average nominal Jew probably has little interest in pursuing the ends of people like Soros or Rothschild. Additionally, some of the bravest whistle-blowers, such as Dr. Norman Finkelstein, have come from their own community.

What concerns me is that the most extremist doctrines, such as Halakha, which calls for the dehumanization and enslavement of non-Jews, and organizations like Chabad Lubavitch, a ruthless ethnocentric criminal organization, are also the most popular within their community. Anyone whose read the Bible can also make the connection that the god in the Old Testament (Torah) is a psychopath, giving carte blanch for the Hebrews to engage in genocide.

I would have hoped those concepts are a bridge to far for any community, or at the very least, comprise the extremist fringe rather than their majority. However, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that most people are largely unaware of these issues, and through a lifetime of osmosis, are largely innocent through their inability to overcome cultural bias on the issue.

Post: #29

I just wanted to clarify, the majority of Jews aren't responsible for what a lot of their religious and political leaders do. Often they're victimized themselves, as is evident in recent cases of abuse within the Hasidim community of Brooklyn, and the occasional sacrifice of their own people to advance the political interests of the upper tier of their society.

You could even argue that the historical suffering of your average nominal Jew is used as political cover to shield the upper class from criticism, as Dr. Norman Finkelstein has often argued.

I believe this trend actually has a historical basis, and probably occurred with the infiltration of the Indo European Levitical priests into their society. They came from the East, significantly altering the cultural values of the people they ruled over. That is quite a long topic to get into, so I'd encourage those who are interested to study the history of the Magi, Zoroastrianism, and further back, the Asura of the Vedas.

Post: #30

As an overture to TheMaleBrain, I thought I'd provide some evidence for his perspective.

Chabad in NYC operates a website with the URL: http://crownheights.info

It's a community news website in English. Essentially, it's Jews speaking to and with (in the comments section) other Jews. While one can't conclude that the people in the comments section are all Jews or all Orthodox of the Chabad variety or otherwise, my take on such participation, from reading over the years, is that it is probably at least around 80% if not higher.

Anyway, the comments section reveals a variety of political stances and opinions. Below, I have pasted some of the more relevant comments, to this discussion, from the following well-commented article:

Op-Ed: Why Jews Should Vote for Ted Cruz

What you will notice is what is expected in any nationalist group that might live in a foreign land: a political will that is not certain to come to fruition, some with a preference for group members and many not, and difference of opinion that spans the spectrum.

My only critique is that a preference for Israel's well-being (or any foreign nation's well-being) as a primary concern undermines our national interest, and as such I'd prefer that anyone with such a priority move to the nation that they prioritize in elections.

Otherwise, I mean to show that the Orthodox "Yidden" are a politically diverse group.

What I'd like to see moving forward is a conservative political alliance between conservative members of this group and American nationalists, which would begin with expressions of support moving in both directions.

Perhaps most importantly, I'd like to see conservative Jews denounce and oppose liberal Jews in the spirited and open manner that any non-Jew would oppose a communist of his own ethnic group; and on a large political scale.

If Jews are going to prioritize their liberal/Marxist co-ethnics over non-Jews of a similar conservative values orientation to them, then we have a non-starter as we will never be able to trust conservative Jews with our political well-being.

Simply, Jewish people have to decide if it is genetics or values that matter most. I realize that this is a difficult choice because Marxist Jews are often also Zionist Jews and rabid nationalists, making it difficult to hold them accountable for their diaspora Marxism. However, such analysis is not difficult for non-Jews and we would need conservative Jews to choose what is also best for us if any type of nationalist-conservative alliance is to be formed between Jews and non-Jews.

Below find select comments that are found under the article, listed in chronological order. I copy and paste select comments to approximately comment number 56 of 109. See the comments section under the article for the rest.

Quote:...
I think Bernie is by far the best option, and Cruz is the second best.
Also, Bernie is best for the US, and Cruz is best for Israel.
Hilary is useless, and Trump is dangerous.
...
Please explain why you think that “Bernie is by far the best option.” I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but what in the world is your opinion based on ??
...
if sanders wins, bye bye yeshiva and hello public school unless you are willing to cough up what used to be subsidized by the evil rich donating to our scholarship funds. And bye bye RCCS, Chai Lifeline, Bonei Olam etc. etc. as they rely to the 95th percentile (of their charitable revenue) on people making above 250k. When sanders picks their pockets it impacts YOU! Especially a frum Jew who our entire infrastructure is philanthropy based.
...
Everyone go to the polls and vote Cruz!
...
Most Yidden are registered Democrats.
They won’t be able to vote for Cruz in the primaries. You can’t vote for him unless he’s the Republican nominee. Then you can vote for him in November.
...
I used to be a bigger Cruz fan. But he became a proxy if Repub establishment. He has zero percent chance to score anywhere near half the delegates.

If you think that in open convention in round two of voting (think RNC home court advantage) the establishment will let Cruz take it, then you need to have your head examined.

Whether you like Trump or not he is the one with a chance to end the RNC cartel. If Cruz is the real deal, he will benefit from trump presidency (or should I say the RNC downfall?).

Btw, just one food for thought that speaks to Trump’s character (yes I know he has weakness with marital…), when his campaign staffer Cory Lewandowski was accused of Assault (a ridiculous perversion of what true assault victims undergo), Trump stood by his staffer. 99.9% of people in that situation throw their employees under the bus especially when they become a significant PR liability, especially when you’re talking a presidential campaign. The loyalty that he exhibited is very encouraging that Trump will continue being a friend to the Jewish community (think Jewish children and grandchildren).

What you said about israel is in my opinion his counterbalance to his bold anti Islamist stance. As to not be seen as anti Islamic, he is saying he would try to achieve peace in Israel with the Arabs and act as unbiased third party to mediate as to not hinder it. My own opinion is that it’s pure lip service so the Islamic community can’t label him as 100% anti Islam.

Ultimately, Israel has to be pro Israel and elect a Prime minister that doesn’t throw Jews out of their homes (think Ulpana, yes thrown out by traitorous Bibi). So you can elect the writer of this op-ed to POTUS and it wouldn’t matter if Israel is governed by traitorous leaders of Bibi’s ilk.

Regardless, it shouldn’t be a major divisive issue because Lubavitchers aren’t determining the outcome of election so main thing is to get along regardless with our fellow man
...
Please. The muiltiple recordings all prove that Lewandowski is 100% guilty. That Trump stood by him just shows what a beheima he is; when you are the victim you will sing a different tune.,

Your appeal to emotion “(a ridiculous perversion of what true assault victims undergo)” is pathetic. Assault means anything that makes someone fear imminent harm. Anyone who has had someone swing a fist at them is an assault victim, and so is Michelle Fields.

And yes, if it goes to a second or third ballot Cruz has a very good chance of winning, because he has been getting is supporters elected as delegates, even if they have to vote for Trump on the first ballot.

As for this “RNC cartel” you rant about, who do you think the Republican Party is? There is no “cartel”, just the people who make up the party, who put themselves into every election, making calls, knocking on doors, donating money, etc. Who else deserves to decide what the party does?

Finally, Lubavitchers can have a significant impact in this primary. Each congressional district elects three delegates, no matter how many Republicans it has. That means a vote here is worth more than 10 times as much as a vote in a heavily Republican area. In 2012, fewer than 3200 Republicans voted in the CD-9 primary; if the same holds true this year, then 640 votes will be enough for a delegate, and 1600 votes will be enough for all three delegates. If every Lubavitcher who is registered as a Republican votes for Cruz, we can get him at least one and perhaps even three.
...
This is a very important article. Thank you for writing such a clear case for Ted Cruz and now let’s hope that eligible people will vote for him. Every vote counts!
...
Bernie really??!??!?!!
the only thing you can say is that he has integrity as in he means what he says(that’s why he’s better than Hillary and Donald). but so does Cruz. With Bernie are you prepared to give all your money (OK only 90 percent if he had it his way) to the government so that they can give it back to you (and others who don’t work) in the form of bad service?
...
Awesome response to @secondbest. Cruz has 559 delegates and picking up steam…. He will be imy”h the nominee on the second ballot. Vote Cruz help save our religious liberty and frumkeit. Keep our bathrooms gender specific, Our shchittah laws intact, and our millah process up to us. End the tyranny of the left. Vote for the proven fighter of religious freedom. TED CRUZ FOR PRESIDENT. ( YEM )
...
The Satmar Rebbe SHlita said to vote for Hillery. I know that means voting in a nekayveh for prez but that is the psak.
...
Satmar Rebbe is a manhig of a kehilla. The satmar kehilla to be specific. His guidance was to his own flock. Not a psak in halocho to klal yisroel. There is no hilchos politics.

In my opinion it also belittles the satmar rebbe to get involved. I have great respect for the satmar moisdos’s accomplishments, but why would he get involved in politics? The [Lubavitcher] Rebbe never told Chassidim who to vote for. He was a spiritual guide not a political operative or analyst.
...
Bernie is jewish

love a jew as yourself
now you rationalize how is better to vote a non jew
Yetzer ara , you don’t realize?
vote for Bernie!
get out of mitzrayim,
...
I hope you are being sarcastic or perhaps your trolling, who knows.
Regardless, I would remind you that all the leftist is Israel are Jews as well. The first and second Beth HaMikdush was destroyed because of fellow Jews. Here in Crown Heights it was fellow Jews who did more harm (mesria etc…) to their fellow Jews than the non-Jewish neighbors.
Don’t be naive. Simply being a Jews doesn’t qualify you to be anything, you need to work hard and earn it.
...
Bernie cares more about Palestine then Isreal even jillary is better then him when it comes to iIsreal http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/head...htmlBernie is a self hating he didnt even show up toi AIPAC
Cruz for president!!!!!
...
2nd best, I agree with you that Mr. Sanders is the best choice. He may be an imperfect man with imperfect plans, but he is no liar. Even his staunchest political opponents — save Clinton –agree.
...
Donald Trump gets my vote. Everyone tells me that he voices their too afraid to say out loud feelings. Cruz will just extend the do nothing pointless administrations. And do you really believe he can beat Clinton?
...
Cruz is a Dominionist. Why would any Jew vote for a Dominionist?
...
So? Are you afraid that what he wants will come to fruition? What exactly are your concerns and worries? Since when have we put a religious test onto people running for office? How easy would it be to write on a Jew running for office… Menachem is a Hasidic Jew (with “extreme views”). Why would any gentile vote for a Hasidic Jew? Thank G-d almighty we have the rule of law and the constitution, otherwise bigots like you would rule with your ill feelings. Stop repeating left wing liberal propaganda! Lastly, for the record: Cruz identifies as Southern Baptist.
...
I love the Bernie trolling! Trump lolam voed! I love when someone thinks they understand politics, and writes these האק א טשייניק op-eds.
...
The Op-Ed should look more like that being that we are all registerd democrats, who to vote for (hillary or ernie) that will make it easier for the Trump or Cruz to beat. With that said We know that the anti semtic reform jews wont vote for a cruz-trump, but those simple jews who are on the fence and you scare them with saying holocaust blabber and they will probably vote hillary, where as bernie said openly he does not like isreal. So in my opinion go vote for bernie tuesday. Straight out of the democrat playbook.
...
If you look on the polls, Cruz is beating Clinton by double digits. Cruz is the only one that has a chance against any democrat/communist!!!!!
...
Vote TRUMP

OVERALL is the best by far
TRUMP all the way![/i]
...
Yes we r voting for Cruz! We need someone good for the Yidden! Ty for the article!
...
Cruz’s only interest in Jews and Israel is that he believes a Jewish return to EY is necessary for Yoshke to come back. After that, he will be happy for Jews to burn in the lake of fire with all the other non-believers. He does not actually care about Jewish interests–Jews are nothing more than a tool to Ted Cruz to make his apocalyptic Xian dominionist belief system come true. Now, of course we know this won’t happen because its not Torah but you really want to cast your vote for someone who thinks like this about Yidden? It’s manipulative and deceitful.
...
Stop with the filthy lies. Not a word that you wrote about Cruz is true, and you know it very well. Cruz loves Jews for one simple reason: because the Torah says ואברכה מברכך ומקללך אאור. He believes this 100%, and he wants the brocho and not the klolo.

Cruz loves Jews, but you hate Xians and love atheists. Why do you hate Xians? Sure, they believe in a false god, but at least they also believe in the Creator and the Torah. The Baal Shem Tov said a goy who believes, even in a false god, can be trusted, but one who has no fear of any god may kill you any time he feels like it.
...
In my opinion the am hakadosh the yiden (it’s not so respectful to call them Jews) should not vote for Cruze for obvious reasons but the fact that trumps great grandfather was Jewish it’s very not chashov to not vote for him
...
What obvious reasons? And since when does Trump have any Jewish yichus at all? All eight of his great-grandparents seem to have been goyim limehadrin min hamehadrin.

Post: #31

(07-20-2016 04:20 PM)John Quincy Wrote:  Civic nationalism is fine because it is based on law and liberty (American founding).

Sounds pretty unbiased, John Quincy.

I think some Native Americans might think otherwise, though.

And Filipinos. Or perhaps Vietnamese, Libyans, Ukrainians, Russians, Chinese, and pretty much everyone else on the planet.

The US is probably the most militaristic nation in the history of the planet. Has any country ever invaded more sovereign nations as normal policy before? I doubt it.

On the other hand, you also have ethnically homogeneous nations that were the only neutral countries in the region during WW2 (Switzerland and Spain).

Don't believe everything you're force fed in school, particularly that which tries to absolve the political system it represents of it's historical complicity in atrocities.

Post: #32

(07-08-2016 10:22 AM)TheMaleBrain Wrote:  Main stream media is starting to pick up on nationalism. It is a small change, and a start. It will not be easy to "convert" to the truth, but it is sometimes happening.

I like your thoughts on nationalism. If you have any other musings, please go ahead.

I would like to hear what you think.

Post: #33

@thoughtgypsy:

You are right. I wrote quickly (and therefore not carefully). I should have said "civic nationalism represents the ideals of the American founding"; or "civic nationalism is what some think that the American founding stood for).

Essentially, civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism are concepts to help us understand the overall concept of nationalism. No nation has been a 100% "clean" civic record; no nation (at least no modern nation-state) is 100% ethnically homogenous.

The US does indeed have a bad record - starting with the Natives (Trail of Tears and all that). It has deviated from its ideals and principles many times.

The civic-ethnic typology put forward by Kohn is not the only way to think about nationalism. As I mentioned in my previous post, I am reading extensively on nationalism and will be in a better position to add value once I have read about 25-30 scholarly works on the subject. I am currently focused on the classics (Rousseau, Fichte, Herder, Renan, Weber to name a few) and on the major theories of nationalism (Ernest Gellner, Benedict Anderson, Eric Hobsbawm, Anthony Smith).

Post: #34

(07-25-2016 04:48 AM)John Quincy Wrote:  @thoughtgypsy:

You are right. I wrote quickly (and therefore not carefully). I should have said "civic nationalism represents the ideals of the American founding"; or "civic nationalism is what some think that the American founding stood for).

Essentially, civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism are concepts to help us understand the overall concept of nationalism. No nation has been a 100% "clean" civic record; no nation (at least no modern nation-state) is 100% ethnically homogenous.

The US does indeed have a bad record - starting with the Natives (Trail of Tears and all that). It has deviated from its ideals and principles many times.

The civic-ethnic typology put forward by Kohn is not the only way to think about nationalism. As I mentioned in my previous post, I am reading extensively on nationalism and will be in a better position to add value once I have read about 25-30 scholarly works on the subject. I am currently focused on the classics (Rousseau, Fichte, Herder, Renan, Weber to name a few) and on the major theories of nationalism (Ernest Gellner, Benedict Anderson, Eric Hobsbawm, Anthony Smith).

A discussion on civic nationalism is off-topic to the thread in my opinion.

TheMaleBrain's nationalism is not civic and, as he is arguing for conjoined nationalism between USA nationalists and Israel, thus neither is the thread topic.

Moreover, the concept of "Civic Nationalism", as the primary or only force for sociopolitical cohesion (essentially acting as an 'anti-ethnic-nationalism' placeholder rather than as any practical sociopolitical framework of its own), is a false front for globalism, no matter how many people with a political agenda over-intellectualized irrefutable human nature in an effort to develop arguments that will always remain in the realm of academic masturbation and idealistic persuasion. Simply, the world is moving past those who would make fools of and hurt communities for selfish-political ends that, low and behold, always benefit a foreign ethnic nationalist group in the end.

Civic nationalism is an impossible ideal to uphold as a primary force for social cohesion, as we are seeing in today's politics, because it does not cultivate political power.

If this thread descends into debating it then the thread will derail and essentially be destroyed.

I let the first anti-intellectual (imo) post go (see below) so as not to let the thread be derailed, but I'm going to have to jump in to this discussion of you keep taking the thread down this path. My humble suggestion is to start a new thread on civic nationalism if you wish.

Quote:Communism, Fascism, and Belligerent Nationalism (Hyper Nationalism) are all terrible things. The ideas in these containers killed millions of people in the 20th century.

Civic nationalism is fine because it is based on law and liberty (American founding).

Ethnic nationalism aka Blood-and-Soil Nationalism is another terrible one. It has killed thousands of people and ruined societies.

For a good (although somewhat problematic) discussion of the civic vs ethnic typology, see Hans Kohn's classic, The Idea of Nationalism.

There's some great work that has been published by scholars of nationalism (both inside and outside America) over the last 30 years or so. Very well developed literature. I have been reading it for a while but it is overwhelming - sort of "the more you read, the less you realize you know."

Post: #35

(07-25-2016 10:12 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  If this thread descends into debating it then the thread will derail and essentially be destroyed.

I let the first anti-intellectual (imo) post go (see below) so as not to let the thread be derailed, but I'm going to have to jump in to this discussion of you keep taking the thread down this path. My humble suggestion is to start a new thread on civic nationalism if you wish.

This whole thread was supposed to be a debate about the positives and negatives of civic and ethnic nationalism and what it means in the context of the modern world.

You derailed the thread when you decided to start attacking Israel and the people who support Israel over debating nationalism.

Post: #36

(07-25-2016 02:56 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  This whole thread was supposed to be a debate about the positives and negatives of civic and ethnic nationalism and what it means in the context of the modern world.

You derailed the thread when you decided to start attacking Israel and the people who support Israel over debating nationalism.

Not really.

OP started the thread to show the positives of ethnic nationalism, particularly in relation to Israel.

Given the recent popularity of nationalist movements within Europe in response to migrant invasions, and the general defensive attitude on RVF towards Israeli foreign policy, it seems like an appropriate time to discuss Israel's nationalism.

Exploring the question of why Israel is allowed to openly practice ethnonationalism, while nearly every other country actively discourages and criminalizes popular nationalist movements thus seems relevant.

Post: #37

(07-25-2016 02:56 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  This whole thread was supposed to be a debate about the positives and negatives of civic and ethnic nationalism and what it means in the context of the modern world.

Is that what is was supposed to be, All or Nothing? Show me. Show me where this thread was supposed to be a "debate" about the positive and negative aspects of civic and ethnic nationalism. Show me that you didn't just invent, out of whole cloth, what you just stated. Go ahead.

You're beginning a new narrative because you want to attack me, and it follows your previous pattern when you recently interjected into an argument, that you had nothing to do with, solely to attack me. In that thread, also, you had zero other input. At this point, you seem to be stalking me across threads.

This is a thread that you have zero investment in as you have made zero contribution to it, and as such you have no platform to inform the thread what the thread is supposed to be about. Not that you could back up your statement, regardless.

Quote:You derailed the thread when you decided to start attacking Israel and the people who support Israel over debating nationalism.

Ignoring the unintelligible syntax.

Not that you are worth the explanation at this point, but here are the OPs initial proposals:

Quote:For all you guys, who believe that Israel is part of the globalist scheme - we are not. We are a nation state, which most of us (but not all) would like to keep our majority. Same way you feel about immigration.
...
But Israel is a close friend of nationalism, which makes it a friend of yours as well.

I pointed out the obstacles in Jewish/Israeli politics that preclude cross-cultural nationalist alliance.

In a later post, I listed what would need to occur for that alliance to occur and then spent a lot of time listing evidence for the OPs general perspective, as an overture to him, that he didn't think to provide for his own argument. https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-56905...pid1356677

What have you contributed to this thread? Nothing.

If you think that accepting someone's over-simplified perspective on a cross-cultural alliance, that is completely ahistorical, in spite of obstacles is "attacking Israel" then you are a problem because you are asking the non-Jewish Right to ignore large opponents in accepting the friends of these opponents.

If you think that debating a relative position in regard to the perspective of Israelis is "attacking Israel" then you're as big a problem as anyone on the oppressive Left.

Are you telling me that I am derailing the thread for pointing out hypocrites that support Israel while supporting internationalism everywhere else?

Is that your position on this forum? You're in the same camp as David Frum, Bill Kristol, and Jonah Goldberg? So be it, but be clear so as not to swash back to some other political camp whenever it isn't your mission merely to attack me.

In reality, you're acting as an agitator while adding nothing to the content. And you've acted in the same way recently before.

Post: #38

Gents:

I brought up the civic vs. ethnic distinction because I thought it would add value to the larger discussion of the positives and negatives of nationalism. The intent wasn't to derail the thread. I apologize that it did. And my second post to this thread was more of a clarification to something that thoughtgypsy raised about my first post.

I'm bowing out of this thread.

If anybody is interested in having a discussion about nationalism that is separate from the discussion about Israel and Jews in America, feel free to pm me and we can exchange notes on e-mail. Or feel free to start a separate thread. I am interested in debating nationalism outside the "Civic nationalism is just a globalist front" claim. That type of discussion dries up pretty quick, IMHO.