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The Positive Side of Nationalism
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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The Positive Side of Nationalism
came across this article .

Some highlights:
Quote:The decision of the British electorate to reject all the advice and browbeatings from the Great and Good, and vote to leave the European Union, is above all a display of nationalism.
That word was mostly absent in the discussions I watched on the BBC and in much coverage here in the United States.
Yes, why would the media, who is funded by the gloablists, not mention that?

Quote:Orwell wrote that nationalism is “power hunger.” Einstein considered it infantile — the view most officials in Brussels probably take.
Orwell also thought that there are way worse things, as per Einstein - so what? He also helped the allied (which were a national power).
The problem is when it is taken out of context or ridiculed - the need to be part of a tribe.

Quote:In the Brexit vote, Brits chose to reject those patronizing views and express their nationalism. By this, they seem to have meant that they want to make the key decisions about their future, and about how they live, through their own democratic institutions.
That is a strange concept Confused. The nation deciding on its own future? that is not very progressive.

Quote:There is a message here for Israelis — and for Americans.
I'm Israeli. Let's have the message.

Quote:For Israelis, the referendum fight helps explain their unpopularity among European elites. If nationalism is primitive and infantile and dangerous, it is no wonder that Israel is criticized endlessly and its efforts to defend itself are seen as excessive. Its basic demand — to be understood and acknowledged as a Jewish state — is itself considered illicit; ethno-national states are out of the question these days. Defending your state with actual guns is positively medieval in the eyes of today’s European leaders.
For all you guys, who believe that Israel is part of the globalist scheme - we are not. We are a nation state, which most of us (but not all) would like to keep our majority. Same way you feel about immigration.

Quote:The sacrifice of sovereignty to bureaucrats abroad would offend Americans just as it offends so many Britons. All this helps explain Donald Trump’s successes this year, for he speaks a language of nationalism: defending borders and controlling immigration
It takes a while to just hear someone and understand he actually means what he says. Because the media is used to left-wing rhetoric which never states its purpose.

Quote:The woman he quoted, he suggested, “couldn’t any longer bear to watch the United States on the descent, hostage to progressivist ideas that bring neither contentment nor satisfaction but instead foster a state of perpetual protest and agitation, anger, and tumult.”
The woman, a Tramp supporter simply said: "I want my country back". It nice to see some of the media trying to catch up.

Quote:They see the president stiffing allies and friends — threatening the British, distancing from Israel — and trying to cozy up to enemies such as Russia and Iran. They see Obama making a pilgrimage to Hiroshima and palling around with Raúl Castro.
Whatever Obama is displaying, it is not nationalism, not a plan to rebuild American greatness and military power. He seems to find American nationalism dangerous and, to use that word again, primitive.
I think the Obama legacy has been done to death on the forum and around the manosphere.

Quote:Nationalism is a permanent fixture of American society and politics; and in the view of most Americans, it’s a positive one.
I'll let you in on a little secret - It's a permanent fixture of most countries in the world.

Quote:to them (liberals), nationalism is chauvinism and prejudice against foreigners, and it must be suppressed in any enlightened country. If she (Clinton) can free herself from those prejudices (as her husband did when a candidate), she will do better against Trump; if she cannot, and her campaign gives off a whiff of the condescension that marked the Remain campaign in Britain, she will give Trump a gift
You guys tell me if this is happening.

Quote:They invented modern democracy and representative institutions. Their nationalism never caused a world war; instead, it fueled the effort to save freedom in Europe. They’ve just reminded their political elites that they love their country and their institutions, not Brussels. They fought and died for England, so why be ruled by Brussels? It’s a lesson about love of country and culture that American elites should absorb, and fast.
There was a time, when elites were aligned on that idea, about 2 generations ago. Don't see any evidence of this happening.

My conclusions:
I know Israel is not very popular on RVF. I sometimes understand why.
But Israel is a close friend of nationalism, which makes it a friend of yours as well.
Main stream media is starting to pick up on nationalism. It is a small change, and a start. It will not be easy to "convert" to the truth, but it is sometimes happening.

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07-08-2016 10:22 AM
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tomzestatlu Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Nationalism is great. I think that only nationalists know, that it´s not about isolationism and chaivinism. I don´t think it´s necessary to write much about it, the most of rationally thinking males on this forum probably realized what´s going on in this sick western society and that all those refugees, liberal propaganda and aggresion towards nationalists is just tool for high bussiness of some individuals... unfortunately there are too many useful idiots, who help them.

About Israel. I don´t see any problem in violent attitude towards country "enemies". Maybe the problem actually is in question: "Why are they enemies of Israel?". I would say, that the most of people around me, who don´t like Israel (and generaly, people in my country, who don´t like Israel), have doubts about legitimacy to exist, from the historial point of view.
07-08-2016 01:28 PM
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
The question of legitimacy has been heard over the years.
Imagine that someone doubts your country's legitimacy. Let's face it, it was part of the Austro-hungarian "empire". I'm not saying that you doubt it, but it makes Israelis (most of them) very anxious.
From a historical point of view, that part of the land had its last independent state in 132 A.D. Since then it was always part of some bigger empire.

That is one of the main problems - If my right to exist as a nation is not seen as legitimate, the discussion cannot continue.

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07-09-2016 12:45 PM
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hydrogonian Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Personally, I think you, OP, are opening a can of worms that this forum does not need in starting this thread.

You think that you are going to have narrative control here, if only by relying on an assumed ignorance of members, but it won't go that way.

I don't say this because I have a desire to debate you or for the thread to go South, but I do take exception to sociopolitical threads that are started while meaning to exclude certain information to keep on-track with the thesis.

I empathize, to a limited extent, with your likely general thinking in moving to ally Israel as some type of anti-globalist, pro-nationalist entity.

It's to build support for Israel on the American Right that you may or may not be sympathetic to. What's to lose? Fair enough, and in a perfect world I'd be on board if it weren't for all of the damning evidence that contradicts Israel's place as an ally of the Goy Right.

Quote:For Israelis, the referendum fight helps explain their unpopularity among European elites. If nationalism is primitive and infantile and dangerous, it is no wonder that Israel is criticized endlessly and its efforts to defend itself are seen as excessive.

Israel is not unpopular among European Elites. It's unpopular among the European people. The Elites generally treat Israel like a nation of demigods, especially when their treatment of it is taken in balance with what it "is", objectively speaking, as a complete anomaly in the West at this point in history.

If Israel were what it is but filled with anyone else but Jews, Europe and the USA would be treating them like they treat Iran.

The USA media, the European media, and most everyone else covers up that fact every day.

Objectively speaking and without moral judgement, Israel is much worse than Apartheid South Africa ever was. If the Elites did not like Israel, they would be apoplectic until Israel was completely marginalized.

Instead, they sell them submarines.

Quote:Its basic demand — to be understood and acknowledged as a Jewish state — is itself considered illicit; ethno-national states are out of the question these days.

If Israelis/Jews are pro-ethno-Nationalist, then why did their ancestors
refuse to leave Germany when given the chance or at least allow Germans their ethno-nationalism? Instead, the world went to War rather than have German-Jews concede the Germans their nationalism.

Quote:Defending your state with actual guns is positively medieval in the eyes of today’s European leaders.

Largely because of WWII, and the media and Jewish organization continually reinforced specter of the European threat against minorities.

Quote:For all you guys, who believe that Israel is part of the globalist scheme - we are not. We are a nation state, which most of us (but not all) would like to keep our majority. Same way you feel about immigration.

Yet your religious eschatology firmly holds that Israel will be a "nation of priests", that is the only ethno-nationalist nation and one full of Jews who do not need to work because the rest of the world supports them.

It holds that the rest of the world will "turn its swords into plowshares" and essentially be a borderless, globalized world order that supports Israel.

Your religious belief precludes Jewish support for non-Jewish nationalists, and a rational historical audit of major organized Jewish political action in the West in the past hundred years reinforces the evidence.

Quote:My conclusions:
I know Israel is not very popular on RVF. I sometimes understand why.
But Israel is a close friend of nationalism, which makes it a friend of yours as well.

Though your religious eschatology and long history of organized political actions have me suspicious, and rightfully so, I'm open to being convinced if only to humor the conversation.

Show me where there has been Israeli government lip service in support for European or American Nationalists.

Show me where there has been Israeli conservative media support for American or European Nationalists or anti-immigrant activists.

Show me the pro-Israel diaspora Jewish organizations that support European or American nationalism and border control.

Count for me the number of diapsora Jewish political or media figures that both support European/American Nationalism and Israeli nationalism at once, and now count the amount that promote globalization for all but Israel. Now show me the ratio.

Explain to me the demographic logic behind the 70% of Jews who vote liberal in the diaspora, compared with their majority rabid nationalism inside of Israel.

Keeping in mind that Orthodox Jews are the political core of Israeli nationalism in Israel, show me where diaspora Orthodox representatives or groups have supported European or American Nationalists.

Show me where Israel has cared about the millions of refugees pouring into Europe, above their self-interest in destroying Syria.

Show me where in the Talmud it states that the nations are to remain autonomous in the world to come.

Quote:Main stream media is starting to pick up on nationalism. It is a small change, and a start. It will not be easy to "convert" to the truth, but it is sometimes happening.

Agree. We'll be looking for vocal support from Israel.
07-09-2016 01:42 PM
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Hhydrogonian

Let's go one by one:
Quote:Israel is not unpopular among European Elites. It's unpopular among the European people. The Elites generally treat Israel like a nation of demigods, especially when their treatment of it is taken in balance with what it "is", objectively speaking, as a complete anomaly in the West at this point in history.
Disagree. No other country is being questioned for legitimacy also by the elites, who control the media. BDS wishes to ban Israeli goods, and is sponsored by the elites.

Quote:If Israel were what it is but filled with anyone else but Jews, Europe and the USA would be treating them like they treat Iran.
Completely disagree.
For every event Israel gets coverage like there is no tomorrow. No other country gets that cover when its army fights. Name a country which gets so much bad publicity.

Quote:Objectively speaking and without moral judgement, Israel is much worse than Apartheid South Africa ever was.
Let's compare shall we:
Apartheid an Afrikaans word meaning "separateness", or "the state of being apart", literally "apart-hood") was a system of racial segregation in South Africa enforced through legislation (WIKIPEDIA)
In Israel - Arabs are MPs, they leave in several cities with Jews (not segregated), some of them serve in the IDF. The law is the same for all (no classes).

So - Major Disagreement.

Quote:If Israelis/Jews are pro-ethno-Nationalist, then why did their ancestors
refuse to leave Germany when given the chance or at least allow Germans their ethno-nationalism? Instead, the world went to War rather than have German-Jews concede the Germans their nationalism
Since I have first hand knowledge, through my family - this is incorrect.
A lot of Jews left Germany, but most of those who wanted could not travel as they were not issued with a migration visa.
Jews were less than 1% of the population of Germany, so I fail to see how they did not "allow Germans their ethno-nationalism". If you have lived for centuries in a country, and in the 200 years previous you were integrated into it, you would not think of leaving so soon.

Quote:Yet your religious eschatology firmly holds that Israel will be a "nation of priests", that is the only ethno-nationalist nation and one full of Jews who do not need to work because the rest of the world supports them.
I have no idea what are you talking about. Israel exports more than it imports. It get 3B$ of aid from the US which is spent on purchasing US equipment only.
Israel does not rely on foreign aid of any kind. Just check the numbers.
We work a lot.
And yes - we are not nation of priests, but some of the Israeli orthodox jews don't work. But some do.

Quote:It holds that the rest of the world will "turn its swords into plowshares" and essentially be a borderless, globalized world order that supports Israel.
That is "End of days". It is also on Christian and other religion as a vision, not a target.

Quote:Your religious belief precludes Jewish support for non-Jewish nationalists, and a rational historical audit of major organized Jewish political action in the West in the past hundred years reinforces the evidence
Actually, it is kind of like the Druze. If Jews are part of a country they are its citizens and act like one. Don't confuse religion with citizenship.

Quote:Show me where there has been Israeli government lip service in support for European or American Nationalists.
Netnyaho clashing Obama
Also - imagine that you are a small state, with not many friends. Would you do much to make yourself shown as "anti-elite"?

[/quote]Show me where there has been Israeli conservative media support for American or European Nationalists or anti-immigrant activists.
Quote:How about those?

[quote]Show me the pro-Israel diaspora Jewish organizations that support European or American nationalism and border control.
here is one.
You will not find many, as they are prone to peer pressure. Don't expect people to go out of their way to support less popular beliefs. Remember that we ourself are anonymous.

Quote:Explain to me the demographic logic behind the 70% of Jews who vote liberal in the diaspora, compared with their majority rabid nationalism inside of Israel.
Simple. When you do not fear for your life, it is easier to be a liberal.

Quote:Show me where Israel has cared about the millions of refugees pouring into Europe, above their self-interest in destroying Syria.
Those refugees ar enemies of Israel. What would you like Israel to do?
Israel sits quietly and does its best not to be involved too much. It affects us heavily.

Quote:Show me where in the Talmud it states that the nations are to remain autonomous in the world to come.
Pray for the welfare of the government. For without fear of it, people would swallow each other alive
This is a classic understanding that strong nation, where one resides is crucial. Because anarchy is far worse. 1500 years ago - that is nationalism as you can have it.

If you wish to visit and see for yourself, I'll be glad to host you.

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07-10-2016 02:16 PM
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Quintus Curtius Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
I think the reason nationalism is growing everywhere is because everyone has realized that the modern mass media, combined with the worship of science and technology, has not brought us satisfaction. It's resulted in the corrosion of religion and the ancient moral codes, the alienation of men and women from each other, and the destruction of the family. People have very little now to call their own.

They don't feel tied or linked to anything. And this is something new in history. People feel profoundly rootless and disconnected from their heritage and traditions. So it's only natural that, all over the world, regionalism is getting stronger. Globalism will still exist on some level--you can't really turn back the clock completely--but there will be a renewed appreciation for soil, blood, tradition, language, and culture. And that is a good thing.

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07-10-2016 02:53 PM
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Smile RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
I think that the drive for unification is also a basic part of the human soul. It will never go away, even if it about conquering others and making everyone "like me"
Here is a classic Sci-Fi example.

Makes me want to show how BBC's Dr. Who tries to push a liberal agenda, and ends with showing how a conservative agenda is way better. Will post it in the future.

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07-10-2016 02:58 PM
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hydrogonian Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-10-2016 02:16 PM)TheMaleBrain Wrote:  Disagree. No other country is being questioned for legitimacy also by the elites, who control the media. BDS wishes to ban Israeli goods, and is sponsored by the elites.

In the USA, I see mostly a media blackout in regard to what should be headlines in regard to Israel. The exception are for events that can not be ignored. I haven't seen evidence of elite sponsored BDS, though I'm open to it.

Quote:Completely disagree.
For every event Israel gets coverage like there is no tomorrow. No other country gets that cover when its army fights. Name a country which gets so much bad publicity.

But what's the consensus media outcome? Mainstream pundits can and do still vocalize support for Israel. Controversial actions are sometimes discussed but the controversy is later buried and things revert to the status quo. If Israel was German or Swedish, and those Aryans popped off white phosphorous over a civilian population, the West would be marched to War by the media.

Quote:Let's compare shall we:
Apartheid an Afrikaans word meaning "separateness", or "the state of being apart", literally "apart-hood") was a system of racial segregation in South Africa enforced through legislation (WIKIPEDIA)
In Israel - Arabs are MPs, they leave in several cities with Jews (not segregated), some of them serve in the IDF. The law is the same for all (no classes).

Except my point wasn't to quibble on the legal status of separated classes of people. It was to point to the de facto status of apartheid in keeping the Palestinians in the state that they are in, while leaving no path to Israeli citizenship due to race. If the Palestinians were lost racial Jews, they would not be kept in their state in spite of their religion and politics. If Israel kept consonant with the promoted politics of Jewish political organizations in the diaspora, all Palestinians that are not militants would not be kept segregated in the Palestinian territories. They would be judged as "individuals" and would be given residency in Israel.

But there is instead a double standard between Diaspora Jewish politics for problem populations and how Israel treats its problem population. There is an implicit acknowledgement that Nationalist population conflicts are good for preserving the interests of people inside of Israel but bad for those nations outside of it.

And this leads us back around to elite support for Israel. Here's the most sickeningly globalist rag in the West defending Israel. If this were anyone else, Israel would be "literally Nazi Germany" to the Western media anti-nationalist hyperbole machine. But instead:

Israel has many injustices. But it is not an apartheid state: The Guardian

Again I'm not judging. I'm only pointing out that Israel is not as hated by the elites as you are making it out to be, and that its actual social problems, if we are comparing it to other historical nations, would warrant much worse coverage if it were comprised of anyone else.

Quote:Since I have first hand knowledge, through my family - this is incorrect.
A lot of Jews left Germany, but most of those who wanted could not travel as they were not issued with a migration visa.
Jews were less than 1% of the population of Germany, so I fail to see how they did not "allow Germans their ethno-nationalism". If you have lived for centuries in a country, and in the 200 years previous you were integrated into it, you would not think of leaving so soon.

Attempting to avoid a protracted conversation that will derail the thread, I'll concede you your point in deference to pulling this discussion out of the early-to-mid 20th century and merely ask, today, if Jewish political power (as kept in any number of organizations or the Israeli government itself) in Israel or outside of it largely concedes Germany and the rest of Europe its nationalism or it fights against it because it is not "good for the Jews"?

Quote:Yet your religious eschatology firmly holds that Israel will be a "nation of priests", that is the only ethno-nationalist nation and one full of Jews who do not need to work because the rest of the world supports them.

So, let's discuss the World to Come in Jewish belief: what it entails and what it will look like. I believe that there is only around 225 years to the maximum end point at which the Messiah can arrive. What are the requirements for that arrival?

Quote:It holds that the rest of the world will "turn its swords into plowshares" and essentially be a borderless, globalized world order that supports Israel.

225 years-ish until the year 6000 and the beginning of the 7th millennium. The day of rest, correct? It is a target.

Quote:Actually, it is kind of like the Druze. If Jews are part of a country they are its citizens and act like one. Don't confuse religion with citizenship.

"Act like one" is a subjective characterization, no? It's sort of meaningless in itself. The specific politics of an individual matter, and non-Jewish nationalism seems to be least favored among the Jewish diaspora even though many of these internationalists keep a rabid group nationalism for themselves. There's nothing more damaging to non-Jewish / Jewish relations then to see a militant Jewish liberal tweet about some Marxist issue from his or her vacation in Israel.

My view is that nationalists should live in their nation, or give up their nationalism. Either one is fine with me. I despise internationalists, but honest internationalists are much more palatable than hypocrites. Non-hypocrite Jewish individuals excepted.

Quote:Also - imagine that you are a small state, with not many friends. Would you do much to make yourself shown as "anti-elite"?

Fair enough. However, I'd also then expect no internationalist agitation by large Zionist organizations such as the ADL and every other alphabet soup diaspora group that I could mention. If the aim is to garner Right wing sympathy outside of the Christian Zionist Right (nice work, btw), then I offer that ceasing to be some of the most powerful social police for globalist ethics would be a good start.

Quote:
Quote:Show me where there has been Israeli conservative media support for American or European Nationalists or anti-immigrant activists.
How about those?

Thanks. I see one article supporting Trump couched in what is best for Jewish interests. What I want to see is articles speaking about the urgency of the morality of the commonly shared principle of nationhood, or something else along that line. In other words, support for nationalism / anti-globalism outside of Israel on principle, not on Jewish interest as what is best for that interest can change.

Quote:
Quote:Show me the pro-Israel diaspora Jewish organizations that support European or American nationalism and border control.
here is one.

You will not find many, as they are prone to peer pressure. Don't expect people to go out of their way to support less popular beliefs. Remember that we ourself are anonymous.

Jewish nationalists are not anonymous, but loud and proud members of the establishment and media in the USA.

Most globalist, explicitly Jewish organizations in the Diaspora are Zionist.

The facebook group is of no importance.

Quote:
Quote:Explain to me the demographic logic behind the 70% of Jews who vote liberal in the diaspora, compared with their majority rabid nationalism inside of Israel.
Simple. When you do not fear for your life, it is easier to be a liberal.

You won't find sympathy for non-principled politics on the Western Right. A large portion of these people are Zionists or otherwise Jewish nationalists while at the same time supporting globalism in the West outside of Israel.

Quote:
Quote:Show me where Israel has cared about the millions of refugees pouring into Europe, above their self-interest in destroying Syria.

Those refugees ar enemies of Israel. What would you like Israel to do?
Israel sits quietly and does its best not to be involved too much. It affects us heavily.

1. Show very vocal support, at the political level, for options for the region outside of what has disrupted Syria to the point of flooding Europe with refugees.

2. Not conspired to destroy Syria in a manner that would flood Europe with refugees, while refusing to take any yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Br..._the_Realm

3. Be vocal in support of Europe rejecting dangerous refugee flows, instead of the Zionist diaspora applying political pressure to accept them.

Quote:If you wish to visit and see for yourself, I'll be glad to host you.

Thanks, sincerely, but I'm good until I see some large scale political camaraderie. While I've witnessed every manner of non-Jewish support for Jewish Nationalism, I've never seen anything political from organized Jewry that doesn't communicate that they anything but despise my group while still expecting full support for their nationalism.

Everything coming from them is what is against my group's interest, in spite of my grandfather and his friends marching on their cousins for Jewish salvation.

That's nothing against you or your likely ability to be an excellent host. It's merely my assessment of everything that I have seen that speaks to formal Jewish politics in the West.

And I admit to a general admiration of your State outside of its Diaspora politics, not that we wouldn't accomplish something similar if left to be politically unharnessed by globalist political bodies and militaries. The situation is merely that you are left relatively unharrassed and so you are all there is to look at.

Though the world is undoubtedly going through a shift. If WWIII doesn't hit in response, then I'll look forward to witnessing a shift in allegiances including the Jewish Right battling the Jewish Left in defense of consistent and principled politics for the people of the world, instead of working with them against the non-Jewish Right on the basis of shared Jewish Nationalism.
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2016 10:22 PM by hydrogonian.)
07-10-2016 09:53 PM
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Let us sum the true benefits of nationalism, A military defense working to the bitter end.

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07-12-2016 11:35 AM
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
hydrogonian

Let's agree to disagree on some of it, and I will say that some of your point are valid (to some extent).
If you want we can take it to an email discussion in order not to derail the thread.

I would say one other thing: come see for yourself. I extend an invitation to anyone of the forum to have a look by himself.
Israel is a great place to visit (I'm biased though), and I promise to provide some hospitality.

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07-13-2016 11:27 PM
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
I am enjoying the rise or return of nationalism in the west.

I love how the media tries to dismantle it or fringe it, call it racism etc.

People know whats going on, I got some hope coming back with Trump and Brexit etc
07-14-2016 03:11 AM
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Lizard King Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
MaleBrain, I have the utmost respect for your defence of your nation. You show yourself to be an highly honourable man.

At the same time however, everything Hydro has said, is what I would have said, but from a far better informed and articulated position than I could achieve.

I will try to add some context to the discussion.

We are living in truly crazy times:

Israel was created by the ruling elite. Now before anyone criticises me for using the term 'ruling elite', it is a legitimate term, used in academic history to refer to the top tier of society who are more often than not, ruling, which sometimes means creating new nation states.

Prior to the creation of Israel, there was the Zionist movement, which by the early 1900s was able to acquire a guarantee from the (albeit, in decline) contemporaneous global superpower, of the establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine.

Whilst it would be difficult to argue against a Jewish homeland, many people today feel that there is a great deal of disproportionate behaviour and activity from the Zionist state. I acknowledge they are hardly in a great position geographically, surrounded by haters that would happily die if it would harm Israel, but at the same time it is felt that Israel does not do itself many favours in respect to how it acts towards non-Zionists.

This brings us to the vast and many contradictions. Israel is the positive side of nationalism if you are a Zionist. Palestinians aren't allowed to be nationalist. Nationalism is taboo in Europe, it will get you branded as: far-right, xenophobic, racist, etc... I could go on highlighting the haves and have-not's of nationalism, but I don't want you to think I am castigating you.

I honestly think we are on the cusp of a new era, because we as humans are still figuring out what to do with the concept of nationalism. It is a double-edged sword, meaning it can be as bad as it is good. We can see nationalist sentiment rising all over the world: Brexit, Trump, dissent towards the EU, Hungary's rejection of EU policy(nationalist interest over federal(globalist) interests), the new Philippine leader.

I just wish I knew where the middle-ground was.
07-15-2016 12:26 PM
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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Post: #13
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Lizard King

Not agreeing with you 100%, but that is fine, since we come from different backgrounds.

Totaly agree with you on middle ground and new era.

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07-16-2016 10:59 AM
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hydrogonian Offline
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Post: #14
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-15-2016 12:26 PM)Lizard King Wrote:  I just wish I knew where the middle-ground was.

It's likely just that: retention of the multitude of Nationalisms with global oversight to prevent war and international exploitation.
07-16-2016 01:30 PM
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Aurini Offline
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Post: #15
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
I may need to visit the local adventuring store and purchase the seventh item on this list before touching this thread.

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Now streaming on the DLive platform..
07-19-2016 10:21 AM
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Lizard King Offline
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RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-16-2016 10:59 AM)TheMaleBrain Wrote:  Lizard King

Not agreeing with you 100%, but that is fine, since we come from different backgrounds.

What did I say that was subjective?

You might not have liked what I posted, but most of it can be proven.
07-20-2016 03:54 PM
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John Quincy Offline
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Post: #17
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Communism, Fascism, and Belligerent Nationalism (Hyper Nationalism) are all terrible things. The ideas in these containers killed millions of people in the 20th century.

Civic nationalism is fine because it is based on law and liberty (American founding).

Ethnic nationalism aka Blood-and-Soil Nationalism is another terrible one. It has killed thousands of people and ruined societies.

For a good (although somewhat problematic) discussion of the civic vs ethnic typology, see Hans Kohn's classic, The Idea of Nationalism.

There's some great work that has been published by scholars of nationalism (both inside and outside America) over the last 30 years or so. Very well developed literature. I have been reading it for a while but it is overwhelming - sort of "the more you read, the less you realize you know."
07-20-2016 04:20 PM
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leanmeansexmachine Offline
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Post: #18
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Nationalism is always positive. End of conversation. Only cuckold hipsters, islamic dogs and jews have problems with nationalism in West and Europe.

Personally i would like to see immigrants have no voting rights and 80% taxes on foreigners from certain countries. Complete ban for travel from all muslim and African countries.

There is no shame in keeping trash out of your countries
07-20-2016 09:14 PM
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amity Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-20-2016 04:20 PM)John Quincy Wrote:  Communism, Fascism, and Belligerent Nationalism (Hyper Nationalism) are all terrible things. The ideas in these containers killed millions of people in the 20th century.

Civic nationalism is fine because it is based on law and liberty (American founding).

Ethnic nationalism aka Blood-and-Soil Nationalism is another terrible one. It has killed thousands of people and ruined societies.

For a good (although somewhat problematic) discussion of the civic vs ethnic typology, see Hans Kohn's classic, The Idea of Nationalism.

There's some great work that has been published by scholars of nationalism (both inside and outside America) over the last 30 years or so. Very well developed literature. I have been reading it for a while but it is overwhelming - sort of "the more you read, the less you realize you know."

Triggered!
Amuse
07-21-2016 11:03 AM
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hydrogonian Offline
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Post: #20
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Here's an interesting experiment.

Go to Google News.

You can switch the news feeds as they are tailored to each nation.

First, note the U.S. feed. There is usually some type of racial agitation emphasis, if not a lot of it. Any other article, having to do with politics, is of a liberal bent, and much of it far-left, except in the rarest of instances.

Now go the the U.K. feed and the racial agitation and liberalism is worse.

Repeat for any other national feed in English, other than that for Israel.

God forbid I was able to speak German and read what Google feeds them.

Now go to Israel's feed in English. The amount of pro-nationalist, pro-Jewish culture, and anti-other articles is unreal in comparison to the pro-cultural Marxism articles fed to the other English speakers in the world.

What Israelis are told, and what everyone else is told, to think about themselves by Google News is of an entirely opposite tone.

This isn't some artifact of popular choice, nor of differing authority of administration of the Google News feeds.

This is a result of the exact same people, the upper hierarchy of which are USA citizens, dictating that there should be two different standards for how Israelis and non-Israeli westerners are propagandized. One is given pro-nationalist propaganda, the other is fed pro-communist/Marxist social propaganda.

And no one of significance (nor otherwise that I can tell), who is targeted for the pro-nationalist propaganda, speaks out about the difference in spite of the terrorism that is being suffered as a result of the Marxism; nor in spite of the growing discord.
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2016 02:48 PM by hydrogonian.)
07-21-2016 02:46 PM
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Liberty Sea Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
hydrogonian is one man I wish I could rep for more than one time.
07-21-2016 07:59 PM
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Brown Pride Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
I have no problem with nationalism.

I am proud to be Mexican and proud to be brown.

I think everyone should be proud of who they are be it white, black, Hispanic or whatever.

You are what you are and you should be proud of it.

Brown Pride!
07-21-2016 08:05 PM
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TonySandos Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-20-2016 04:20 PM)John Quincy Wrote:  Communism, Fascism, and Belligerent Nationalism (Hyper Nationalism) are all terrible things. The ideas in these containers killed millions of people in the 20th century.

Civic nationalism is fine because it is based on law and liberty (American founding).

Ethnic nationalism aka Blood-and-Soil Nationalism is another terrible one. It has killed thousands of people and ruined societies.

For a good (although somewhat problematic) discussion of the civic vs ethnic typology, see Hans Kohn's classic, The Idea of Nationalism.

There's some great work that has been published by scholars of nationalism (both inside and outside America) over the last 30 years or so. Very well developed literature. I have been reading it for a while but it is overwhelming - sort of "the more you read, the less you realize you know."

If that's true, how are Japan (currently an ethno-nationalist society), China (same), Bangladesh (same), India (same) and Russia (same) managing to not ethnically cleanse people by the truck load? This alone takes away the legitimacy of your other points against types of nationalism.



I may someday take up MaleBrain on his offer myself. I am Culture of Critique skeptic myself, but to say any ethnic group works in total unison to undermine or conspire against all others is absurd. No people in history have shown a collective cohesiveness to individually conspire and direct their products to such a collective task. I'm also not saying that other men here has made such a statement. I mention this because this assumption sometimes looms over discussions of this nature, either by misunderstanding or assumption again.

Now that we've cleared the air of that, I fullheartedly endorse the concept of nationalism. The peoples of the world and their diverging cultural and social systems only suffer stagnation and suppression under one-world utopianism. Allowing people to congregate and exercise their differing wills under difference political structures allows for legitimately humane politics in the global picture. Contrary to popular belief, it's actually the humanists and consequentialists are inhumane.

Cobra Wrote:  Thinking too much about alpha vs beta is beta.

Due to the triggering nature of my commentary, I feel that it's important to declare that I am completely calm and not angered when participating on this board. You may put away your personal offense now
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2016 08:35 PM by TonySandos.)
07-21-2016 08:13 PM
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TheMaleBrain Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
(07-21-2016 02:46 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  Here's an interesting experiment.

Go to Google News.

You can switch the news feeds as they are tailored to each nation.

First, note the U.S. feed. There is usually some type of racial agitation emphasis, if not a lot of it. Any other article, having to do with politics, is of a liberal bent, and much of it far-left, except in the rarest of instances.

Now go the the U.K. feed and the racial agitation and liberalism is worse.

Repeat for any other national feed in English, other than that for Israel.

God forbid I was able to speak German and read what Google feeds them.

Now go to Israel's feed in English. The amount of pro-nationalist, pro-Jewish culture, and anti-other articles is unreal in comparison to the pro-cultural Marxism articles fed to the other English speakers in the world.

What Israelis are told, and what everyone else is told, to think about themselves by Google News is of an entirely opposite tone.

This isn't some artifact of popular choice, nor of differing authority of administration of the Google News feeds.

This is a result of the exact same people, the upper hierarchy of which are USA citizens, dictating that there should be two different standards for how Israelis and non-Israeli westerners are propagandized. One is given pro-nationalist propaganda, the other is fed pro-communist/Marxist social propaganda.

And no one of significance (nor otherwise that I can tell), who is targeted for the pro-nationalist propaganda, speaks out about the difference in spite of the terrorism that is being suffered as a result of the Marxism; nor in spite of the growing discord.

Took your advice and looked at the feed.
Most english news sites there are right-wing. There are very little left wing sites there (Haaretz being one).
Also - Israel is just very nationalist in its agenda. We have very little english counterparts of "Gawker" and others. It is just that.

"I love a fulfilling and sexual relationship. That is why I make the effort to have many of those" - TheMaleBrain
"Now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
07-22-2016 12:02 AM
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TonySandos Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The Positive Side of Nationalism
Haaretz can be suicidally leftist for those that haven't read it before. All that's possible likely exists

Cobra Wrote:  Thinking too much about alpha vs beta is beta.

Due to the triggering nature of my commentary, I feel that it's important to declare that I am completely calm and not angered when participating on this board. You may put away your personal offense now
07-22-2016 01:06 AM
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