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subterfuge journal
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polar Offline
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Post: #26
RE: subterfuge journal
60 has great content and very different. But keep in mind that he wrote it around the night scene where everyone is in a social environment. And you need to carry yourself with value to get her to invest before you've put energy into the interaction. Much of 60's stuff would have to be toned down in other environments.

I second WIA. Try one method for a while before switching it up. Just like the gym, you don't want to keep trying different things before finding out if they work.

The other one...delay the name exchange. You can ask hers once you're around 10 minutes in or running out of material. Stretch your hand out, ask what's her name, hold her hand and look boldly in her eyes. Don't let go of her hand until she does. That and seeing if she asks you for your name in response show you if she's interested.

Pretending to be shy: rule #1: feign innocence. You can boldly escalate physically so long as you deny it and act shy verbally. In other words, blame her for being a temptress and a bad influence as your hands wander south.

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09-01-2016 06:16 PM
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WestIndianArchie Offline
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Post: #27
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-01-2016 06:16 PM)polar Wrote:  Pretending to be shy: rule #1: feign innocence. You can boldly escalate physically so long as you deny it and act shy verbally. In other words, blame her for being a temptress and a bad influence as your hands wander south.

*sheds tear*

It's like watching a boxer going at it.

WIA

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09-01-2016 07:18 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #28
RE: subterfuge journal
Thanks. PS - I only do night game.
I don't feel as though many of the books i've read have actually given me an actionable 'method' to test as yet.
I mean, 60's for example, he mentions almost NOTHING about the things i'm supposed to be talking about with the girl, and what sort of things I should say. How to act at different stages etc.

I read magic bullets a few books back and from memory, that was more of a 'method', but I might have to re-read it again!

Are there any books you can recommend that goes into more detail about the whole interactin so I can more easily 'test' ideas for a UK person who can only really meet girls at night? I'm guessing maybe that krauser guy?

regards
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 03:16 AM by subterfuge.)
09-02-2016 02:26 AM
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Post: #29
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-02-2016 02:26 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Are there any books you can recommend that goes into more detail about the whole interactin so I can more easily 'test' ideas for a UK person who can only really meet girls at night? I'm guessing maybe that krauser guy?

regards

That's the thing though, no book gives you the whole script from start to finish

- see the girl
- step up
- get her attention
- open her with a canned or improvised opener - which can be verbal or nonverbal - and can be low energy/high energy - and can be direct or indirect

The books get you that far.

The chick either
- reacts well
- reacts poorly
- doesn't react

Then whatever style you're doing typically has some follow ups for those 3 cases.

But assuming she opens on the 3rd piece of value - what happens next is all the methods give you a basic road map. They don't tell you how and when to switch lanes, or to observe the traffic signals. It's expected for you to use your common sense about those things.

These books all expect basic socialization, and game is merely advanced socialization.

So if you don't have basic socialization, you're going to learn it by failing to observe it.

1 - Now that she's open, show more value, get her to invest.
2- when she invests, get her to invest more, before you show some approval
3 - then move her around the venue to build trust
4 - move her out of the venue to build trust
5 - get her home, and start the seduction sequence

I can tell you from experience, that a whole lot of conversation, glances, touches, silences, interruptions, other guys, her friends, the club staff - happens between each of these destinations.

No book can script out all the moments in between the steps. That's where your base level socialization - reading people and reading situations - develops over time.

Right now, from me, you should have learned

- my approach can make a girl girl grumpy by doing a formal introduction -
a) I'll never do a former introduction
b) I'll google for how to recover from a boring/bad introduction

- In this last fiasco, you pulled girls from the high energy dance floor, and then they eventually got bored.

a) I can pull girls off the dance floor
b) I have to do something so they're not bored. Whatever you were doing, was boring them

No one book is going to list every possible permutation of what might happen during a pick up attempt. Even if you read them all and organized them into a huge decision tree.

There's too many things to list and consider - so you have to lean back on your current knowledge of socialization - or learn it as you go.

It would probably help to daily read the thousands of interactions that guys are having with chicks on this site and others. Not memorizing them, but familiarizing yourself with how these things go.

"I message this chick on Tinder"
"she was being cheeky"
"I told her I have a big duck, and asked her if she wanted to see it. "
"then I sent her a pic of a rubber duck"
"now she totally wants to meet"

You're not going to necessarily remember that chicks get a lot of "dick" pics, and by saying "duck", you're actually playing off of this fact that the word duck looks a lot like dick and she's expecting the inevitable. And then she's surprised when she gets something novel. And you surprising her is the the thing that pushes her from neutral to positive.

But read enough of these, and if you have a playful style, then you start to get your own ideas on how to be playful, and that you can be playful.

If you have a more serious style, maybe it's a report about a guy using heavy eye contact, and then motioning with his head to come with. No words being spoken, but communication still.

The books give you the road map. Pick something you like.

But in the end, it's going to be you learning the ropes of socialization, and how you are perceived, how you change your image by changing your behavior which changes your results.

A lot of guys read, read, and read. But and they have these unhealthy expectations that the real interaction is going to look like the text book, where chicks fall on your dick.

That's not how it works.

The book points you, hopefully, in the right direction.
But you've got to do 95% of the work yourself.

If you don't some of the social cues and social context - you'll fail. And then you'll learn from your failure. Then you'll go back out again. Ideally, you communicate what you did, and your fellow travelers can help you spot the issues - but you're doing the heavy lifting in all of this.

WIA

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09-02-2016 06:53 AM
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Post: #30
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-02-2016 06:53 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  "I message this chick on Tinder"
"she was being cheeky"
"I told her I have a big duck, and asked her if she wanted to see it. "
"then I sent her a pic of a rubber duck"
"now she totally wants to meet"

This is one of the best things I've read today. I'm going to start sending duck pics to girls from now on.

"Their emotional waves will swamp you if you're just quietly-floating, so you need to learn to surf." - AnonymousBosch

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09-03-2016 12:37 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #31
RE: subterfuge journal
not much to report on last night.
Was a quiet night in town.

At one point there were 2 girls standing at a table in a bar. My friend recognised them from work, although he's basically never spoken to them. I told him we should go and speak with them.

I went over to them with 60's method in mind.
I said hello, and then I introduced myself to one of them.
I took her hand, and then I held onto it for a long time like 60 said to do.
After about 20 seconds she pulled it away.
I asked her what she'd been doing that night and stuff, all whilst holding strong eye contact.
She was relatively friendly which is kind of rare for me, but I got the impression that she felt like I was trying to pick her up......which i obviously was! But some people say that that's 'wrong'. You should be 'invisible'. But others say you need to showclear intent!? I dunno.

I gave her some compliments and stuff, and at one point she mentioned going somewhere and I said ''you should take me with you'' whilst smiling.
She said ''why would you want to go with me?''
I said ''Because I like you!''
Then she said ''I've got a boyfriend'' and from that point I obviously kind of gave up, but just carried on trying to be flirty for the sake of practice.

The other girl who looked like Cara Delevigne (hot) was looking at her phone the whole time.
I moved my attention to her and asked her why she was glued to her phone, and tried to tease her about being on tinder the whole time.
She was less receptive than the other girl and told me she had a boyfriend.

Then we went to get a cab and there was a hot girl with her shoes in her hand. I probably need to find a good line for that situation, as i keep seeing it!
Anyway, I saw a vid yesterday where a guy alwaya opens with what he sees. So, he sees a girl in a yelllow dress and walks over to her and says ''Girl in the yellow dress!! What's up'' kind of thing.

So since I couldn't think of anything clever, I opened with ''Girl with no shoes on! What's up?''
Anyway, this girl was 100% not interested and was kind of rude. much more typical reaction. I'm starting to think it's the area I live in! I live in a fairly 'chavy' area. (not sure if the US guys here will know what that means, though.)
So she replied ''Who are you? What do you want?!!''
I was like ''I'm just making conversation''
And then she said ''I've got a boyfriend, and then she put her hand out and grabbed her friends wrist, and her friend then kind of pulled her away from me''

That was it.

might be going out to a bbq today where hopefully there'll be some new girls to approach!
09-03-2016 05:23 AM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Nothing to report from the BBQ. There were literally no single people there (apart from me). Certainly no single girls!
(This post was last modified: 09-07-2016 01:43 PM by subterfuge.)
09-07-2016 01:42 PM
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jcrew247 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: subterfuge journal
That's weird that you get no tinder matches. Are your photos really bad? Can you take some better photos, maybe wear a suit and tie in a photo? Take another photo with a muscle shirt to show your arms.

If you're not getting any matches, that you will have a hard time talking to hot girls at the bar. Maybe chat up the fatties to get more experience, at a platonic level, and they can introduce you to their hotter friends. Ugly guys really need to be funny and have good social skills.

Definitely work on daygame more and maybe try to meet girls at a catholic church or some other singles event. Daygame is generally easier because you don't have to be clever, usually you just say HI, what's your name?

Maybe try some inter-racial and non-white girls because a lot of white guys usually have better luck with asian women due to a higher social status.
09-07-2016 05:30 PM
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Post: #34
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-07-2016 05:30 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  That's weird that you get no tinder matches. Are your photos really bad? Can you take some better photos, maybe wear a suit and tie in a photo? Take another photo with a muscle shirt to show your arms.

If you're not getting any matches, that you will have a hard time talking to hot girls at the bar. Maybe chat up the fatties to get more experience, at a platonic level, and they can introduce you to their hotter friends. Ugly guys really need to be funny and have good social skills.

Definitely work on daygame more and maybe try to meet girls at a catholic church or some other singles event. Daygame is generally easier because you don't have to be clever, usually you just say HI, what's your name?

Maybe try some inter-racial and non-white girls because a lot of white guys usually have better luck with asian women due to a higher social status.

I've tried various different photos. Full body, face only, 'social' photos etc.

The odd thing is that when I first downloaded tinder I got a fair few matches. Then I opened a 2nd account (and obviously a new fake facebook account) to experiment with something, and since that day, my matches have been *nearly* non-existent. Could just be coincidence, though. (although I did wonder about a possible algo/security thing that they have implemented)

Yeah, I've recently been lowering my standards a little bit as you say, but it's not yielded any better results as yet.

I can't really day game as I work in teh day all with men in a warehouse, and we don't really get a proper lunch break. Just a a very short one. I only night game.

Actually, the girl in my last field report was a black girl, funnily enough. I didn't think to mention that. - With her, I got the feeling that after being more direct and giving her a compliment (and also holding her hand for a long time as recommended to me in '60 days of challenge') I think she jsut saw me as a bit of a desperate creep.

Thinking of properly field testing a certain opener and general 'frame'/plan for my next 20 approaches so that I have some consistency to analyse after.

I could be wrong, but I think that's what WIA was getting at with me earlier.

I'm thinking of a 'funny' canned opener, (as so far, everything else has bombed badly. Even simple things like 'Hi! what's up?''!) then just being 'normal' - not getting caught up in 'pickup' stuff, and then when I feel as though we're getting on, increase the kino and the teasing. (though I often fail to find things to tease her about). Then if that goes well, try to isolate, and then see if i can get a makeout from there. Need to be weary of not BORING the girl, though in the initial phase of 'being normal'/asking them questions etc.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2016 08:08 AM by subterfuge.)
09-08-2016 08:04 AM
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Post: #35
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-22-2016 06:23 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  ''Hi! What's up?? I'm sub'' (and smiled)
(she looked a bit grumpy)
her: ''hi''
me: ''are you here alone?''
her: ''my friends are just coming''
me: ''what's your name?''
her: ''claire''
At this point, 2 of her friends turned up, and she turned her back to me and kind of positioned herself so that her friends were kind of making a barrier between us. Obviously not interested in me, so I just kind of played it off, and smile and said
me: ''Ok, you take it easy, Claire!''
--------------------------------------------

Me: Hi! (smile) (I couldn't think of a good opener, so just went with the old 'just say hi' advice.)

At this point one of them turned her head away from me, and the other one just blanked me. I immediately felt a bit bad, because the look they gave me was one of ''we are out of your league!''

me: How's it going? (to both girls)
(one of them carried on blanking me, and the other one pretended that her friend didn't speak English.)
Her: She doesn't understand English.

Me: Oh? where is she from?

(at this point the 'one who can't speak English' (which was a lie, lol) kind of grabbed her friend, and they both walked back indoors in the bar)

this was extra bad, because my friends I was with (who also NEVER pull) told me that I was wasting my time trying to chat up girls who are so good looking. 'Aim lower!!'' was the advice

---------------------------------------------------

NEXT
In a different bar, and a girl is taking photos of her friends. I tap her on the shoulder

me: ''You're friends always make you the designated photo taker?''
her: ''haha...thinking about it, it is always me taking the photos!''
me: ''that sucks. Do they at least tag you in them on facebook?''
her: ''NO! I have to do it myself like a loner Sad''
me: Lets find you some new friends tonight.
her'' haha''
me: Where are you going tonight?''
her: My boyfriend is taking me out for a meal later, but gonna be here until he gets here''
me: Oh. Boyfriend?! (made a pretend super sad face. She laughed and touched me on the shoulder)
her: Awww...what sort of girl are you hoping to meet tonight? what willl she look like
me: Like you!! but with blonde hair! (this girl was brunette)
her: HAHAHA (She seemed to find this VERY funny for some reason)

At this point, some guy (not her boyfriend) completely cut in between us, and started talking to her. i tihnk he was a friend. It was a bit awkward and rude, but i didn't feel lke doing anything about it,m since I knew i wasn't gonna be able to get her anyway, so I just craned around him and said ''I gotta get back to my friends, see ya later''

Didn't see your thread here before, but after the discussion in the openers thread I'll chime in. Good to have some dialogue to dissect, if not body language etc, although that can be inferred.

All these approaches have a poor question:statement ratio. When you talk with friends you don't ask multiple questions in a row. This is a very important thing to remember. Think of like "wheel of Fortune". A question costs you value, an interesting statement gives you value. You can't win without both, but you need to be making at least as many statements as questions. Using the only interaction with visual context above, photo girl -

me: ''You're friends always make you the designated photo taker?''
her: ''haha...thinking about it, it is always me taking the photos!''
you: well at least you guys aren't out here with a selfie stick. You're not hiding one in your purse are you? (making her qualify herself to you)
her: blahblah
you: Yea, it's kinda sad how many photos taken today are selfies if you ask me. Like "People aren't going to believe I was here for this photo if I'm not in it!" [with a smile, again expressing standards, setting yourself apart from other selfie drones]
...
me: Like you!! but with blonde hair! (this girl was brunette)

This line is very good actually and a classic example of push/pull. You need more of this. See my post here for suggestions - https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-24128...pid1357655

From your use of punctuation it seems you're coming in high energy and failing to back it up. Try a lower energy approach. I never say "Hi", always "Hey". Subtle difference but as they say 90% of communication is in the subtext.

I also envision you coming in with raised eyebrows/wide eyes, the typical enthusiastic look. In my opinion and experience this is a kiss of death. Eyebrows down, eyes "squinched" slightly, and only a slight smile make my approach results night and day.

(09-03-2016 05:23 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I went over to them with 60's method in mind.
I said hello, and then I introduced myself to one of them.
I took her hand, and then I held onto it for a long time like 60 said to do.
After about 20 seconds she pulled it away.
I asked her what she'd been doing that night and stuff, all whilst holding strong eye contact.
She was relatively friendly which is kind of rare for me, but I got the impression that she felt like I was trying to pick her up......which i obviously was! But some people say that that's 'wrong'. You should be 'invisible'. But others say you need to showclear intent!? I dunno.

I gave her some compliments and stuff, and at one point she mentioned going somewhere and I said ''you should take me with you'' whilst smiling.
She said ''why would you want to go with me?''
I said ''Because I like you!''
Then she said ''I've got a boyfriend'' and from that point I obviously kind of gave up, but just carried on trying to be flirty for the sake of practice.
...
So since I couldn't think of anything clever, I opened with ''Girl with no shoes on! What's up?''
Anyway, this girl was 100% not interested and was kind of rude. much more typical reaction. I'm starting to think it's the area I live in! I live in a fairly 'chavy' area. (not sure if the US guys here will know what that means, though.)
So she replied ''Who are you? What do you want?!!''
I was like ''I'm just making conversation''

Always take back your touch from a woman first - very important. Physical push/pull. Holding and making her drop your hand is her rejecting you because of too much pull. You're chasing her, you should be making her chase you, or at least make her think that she is.

Your frame is weak in this interaction as well. ''I'm just making conversation'' is a defensive, apologetic statement. A man with a strong frame would never apologize for making conversation with a woman, rather he would just continue to do so.
"What do I want? I've come for your shoes, Missy![smile or possible laugh in self-amusement] Nah, I was just about to meet some buddies over at X and..."
09-08-2016 11:41 AM
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Post: #36
RE: subterfuge journal
Thanks for popping in, Gorgiass.

Yeah, the waiting for her to pull her hand away was the first time i've ever done that. I always pull away first. But that night, i'd just finished reading '60 days of challenge', and that was one of his pieces of advice. It's just such a headache when nearly every single piece of advice seem to conflict with someone elses!! However, in this instance, i'm gonna go with my instincts, and say that you're right and he's wrong. Even when I read it in the book, I though ''Hmmm....that seems a bit creepy!''

Regarding the girl holding her shoes. Again, my instincts would be to just more or less laugh off her aggression/hostility, but a few people have mentioned that I need to ''deal with people emotional state'' and not just plough through. I should also mention that that same girl seemed to nearly get in a fight with someone else soon after what happened with me. I almost think any comeback, even one is playful as your (i've come for your shoes, missy!) could have got me in trouble! Not sure whether you read my earlier field report where I nearly got into a fist fight with the friend of the girl to whom I simply said ''Hi, I like your hat!'' It's 'chav' central where I live!

I'll try to remember to make more statements as opposed to asking questions. It's something that I was already of course aware of, but I guess I slip back into habbit, and everything I think i've 'learnt' can 'go out of the window' in the heat of the moment. Like Mike Tyson saying 'everyone's got a plan, until they get punched in the face!!''

Interesting thing you mention is 'energy'. Something i've been thinking about recently.
I've probably tried a mixture of things so far, just naturally, without really thinkingabout it. Sometimes high energ, sometimes low.

In general from the various books i've read, the consensus seems to be to 'come in with more energy than them'

However, you've probably guessed correctly in that I probably tend to look too enthusiastic at times if i think about it. I'll try to remember to keep my eyebrows down more. I have deep-set eyes naturally, so shouldn't be hard.

You're also probably right in that when I've came in with high energy, i've 'failed to back it up'. I've said that myself, i think. I guess it stems from still, even now and after having read lots of books and made a fair few approaches, not really knowing what to talk about and how to have a 'fun' interaction without boring the girl.

Sometimes, certain canned openers seem to have lead to much more fun conversations, but I struggle to inject fun if we start off with just a typical socia exchange opener' (''hi - what's up?'' kind of thing)
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2016 12:17 PM by subterfuge.)
09-08-2016 12:14 PM
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Post: #37
RE: subterfuge journal
You can daygame on the weekends or when you have days off of work. there's less competition from other guys. Go to a mall or shopping area, anywhere with lots of women, and make some small talk about the the weather or the news. Coffee shops are usually filled with women, even after-work or anywhere with students and grad students. Cute nurses may have a pint near hospitals. If you think you're losing out to alpha guys at bars, then go somewhere where the odds are in your favor.
09-08-2016 01:53 PM
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Post: #38
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-08-2016 12:14 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  In general from the various books i've read, the consensus seems to be to 'come in with more energy than them'
...
You're also probably right in that when I've came in with high energy, i've 'failed to back it up'. I've said that myself, i think. I guess it stems from still, even now and after having read lots of books and made a fair few approaches, not really knowing what to talk about and how to have a 'fun' interaction without boring the girl.

That's the thing, if you come in RSD energy, you need to have the RSD ramble material to back it up. It's like you're coming up "Hey guys, you won't believe this awesome story I've got about what happened to me yesterday!! So...I was walking home and got a pizza and went to bed".

Those are my thoughts on the matter anyway. Try it out. Different things work for different people.

Agree with JCrew that you might have better luck in daygame. In addition to lower shields, that's where I really punch above my weight. Banged several girls I wouldn't have a chance with on a Friday in the club or a snowball's shot in hell with on Tinder, and many more I wouldn't have even met at either place, which is what sets them apart even more. Club sluts get jaded quickly, plenty of "good" girls who don't whore it up every weekend are even hotter once you get them in makeup and heels. And that psychological deflowerment...can't beat it.
09-08-2016 06:56 PM
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Post: #39
RE: subterfuge journal
Yeah, I think the high energy thing is useful only because most guys are very low energy when it comes to speaking and communication skills. Especially in bars where high-energy is necessary with the loud music.

But too much high energy can scare women off as well, so it requires judgement to calibrate the energy levels for the woman and situation you are in.

Then its worse to come in with high energy and then fade when you run out of things to talk about and that may make you seem too boring. Sometimes a slow-build seduction is more effective.
09-08-2016 09:31 PM
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Post: #40
RE: subterfuge journal
Had a much better night last night in terms of the approach not being awkward / no harsh rejection and able to build lots of rapport, HOWEVER, the girls were American.

American girls are like 5x as friendly and approachable. They just are. I really think there needs to be a new 'game' book written, specifically for the tough Brit girls.

Anyway, I noticed 4 girls all sitting together. I noticed them laughing lots and assumed they'd maybe be a bit more friendly that lots of the previous girls i'd approached recently.

As I walked over they were kind of going 'Woooooo' (about something), so I jokingly matched their energy and said' Wooooo' myself, whilst smiling, and then said ''What is it, Ladies night tonight??!''

I don't know if that's a good open or not, but they were immediately receptive and smiled and were like ''Yeah! Girls night out!''

I noticed the accent, and within seconds we were talking about the differences between US/Uk culture and what they were up to etc. They were air hostesses staying in a hotel down the road. Perfect logistics, I guess.

There were 2 hot ones in the group. I told one of the hot ones that I liked her glasses within a few seconds of meeting her and tried to kind of stare in her eyes in a slightly flirty way.

After about 10 minutes of talking, my friends finally got the courage to join me in talking to these girls.

Then I suggested to the girls that we go to a different bar down the road. They agreed

On the walk there, I pointed out a few landmarks, and pretended that they were famous. Like, I 'd point at a random building and say ''That's where 'Jack the Ripper' had his wedding reception''. They seemed to find this amusing and laughed as they were obvious lies, and like they'd punch me and then I'd grab them and laugh, trying to get some kino going.

We went to this new bar, but then 2 of the girls left almost instantly, saying that they had to get a flght at like 5am and didn't want to be too tired, leaving one hot one who was fairly quiet, and one really nice, talkative girl, but who wasn't great looking.

Either way, at this point i was a bit lost as to how to get things more sexual. More flirty. More heated. I was waery of what happened last week when I probably came across like a creep pervert when I told the girl she was hot and then probably 'pushed it' too much with the compliments and forcing kino. Wanting too avoid that last night, but I found myself unsure of what to do/what to say to show my intent and to build sexual attraction.

Either way, it was a positive interaction, but slightly 'unfair' because they were American! If it was Brit girls, they'd ahve told me to go away after I opened!! Smile
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2016 05:48 AM by subterfuge.)
09-11-2016 05:24 AM
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WestIndianArchie Offline
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Post: #41
RE: subterfuge journal
"There were 2 hot ones in the group. I told one of the hot ones that I liked her glasses within a few seconds of meeting her and tried to kind of stare in her eyes in a slightly flirty way. "

So he gave another girl a compliment and it fails.
Even after the error has been pointed out by the brain trust here.

All you other guys reading - this is what you call a hard case newbie. He's not getting better because he's violating the social contract time and time again. This is despite having been exposed to how the game works, he persists in his own "style".

WIA

http://www.westindianarchie.com/
09-11-2016 11:12 AM
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Post: #42
RE: subterfuge journal
I thought a compliment on a thing as opposed to her beauty was OK, but I honestly will try hard to remind myself that I will never compliment a girl again. I know now!! But then i'm not sure how i'd transition from normal chit chat using kino/eye contact into anything more sexual.

With the one night stand I had, I felt as though as soon as I told her that I thought she was cute, she suddenly started getting much more touch feely with me.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2016 11:43 AM by subterfuge.)
09-11-2016 11:41 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #43
RE: subterfuge journal
going out tonight - now that I know that going direct and complimenting is a bit' NO NO', i'll see how I get on. Always very indirect
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2016 06:23 AM by subterfuge.)
09-17-2016 06:23 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #44
RE: subterfuge journal
Made out with 2 girls last night. Went to a club. Not been to an actual club in about 5 years! Easier than I remember to kiss girls, although I wasn't ever remotely close to getting them to come home with me. In fact, they didn't seem to want to talk at all! - Even when I reapproached them at the bar later.

I opened another stunner who hadvery ripped jeans, and said ''It looks like the cat got to them trousers!'' I thought it was a good opener, but she didn't smile or anything. Just looked at me all serious. Then she said ''I've got 5 cats''. I said ''really?'' and then she said ''Your boring me!!!'' Rude as hell haha. Not sure what (if anything) i'd done wrong. I just smiled and looked away and then she left.

There was another girl who had the most amazing eyes and she had a hat on.
My instincts were to tell her that I liked her hat, or that she had pretty eyes, but I fought the urge and remembered never to compliment a girl, so I just said ''Hey, what's up?'' She said ''hi!'. I asked her why she wasn't dancing, and she told me ''later''. I thought for a second as to what to say next but nothing came to my brain, but then one of her friends grabber her and pulled her away. Kind of saved me in fairness.

I'd been to a party earlier, and I was desperate to talk to this girl who was simply GORGEOUS! She was LOTS younger than me and so she wasn't drinking or dancing, and I think he parents were there, and I just couldn't think what to say to her or how to even open her. But my God, she was attractive! was tempted to break the 'compliment' rule just so I could at least speak to her, but resisted!
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2016 07:24 AM by subterfuge.)
09-18-2016 07:23 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #45
RE: subterfuge journal
PS -Out of curiosity, the ripped jeans girl; i'm assuming it was some sort of shit test when she said I was boring her even though we'd barely spoke? If so, i'm supposed to agree and amplify with a shit test from what I read, so should I have been like ''Hell yeah! I'm the most boring person you'll speak too all night! I've got several awards for being boring!'' etc etc? Or not?

And the opening line was OK, wasn't it?! Smile - I guess I made myself laugh if nothing else
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2016 09:13 AM by subterfuge.)
09-19-2016 09:12 AM
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #46
RE: subterfuge journal
"Really?" failed the shit test. When you're a kid and someone says "who wrote gullible on the ceiling?" and you look up you're letting them play you and giving them dominance. Same situation here. If you can't tell if a woman is tooling you or not, always assume she is - deadpan and play along/one up her (remember not to laugh first, don't be an angrypicnic). My inclination here would be to follow the cats comment with "well I guess I don't need to ask if you have a boyfriend then..." but that might be too harsh. I'd have to be there. And sometimes/oftentimes women at night are cunts, don't sweat it.

Opener could've been more playful, eg using lion instead of cat maybe but it's just an opener anyway.
09-20-2016 01:55 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #47
RE: subterfuge journal
Banged a girl from tinder last night. Got a match after I came home from football. She said ''what are you looking for?'' I said ''a hookup''. She said ''me too. Just broke up with my boyfriends so nothing serious''. I arranged to meet her at my house. First of all she put a spanner in the works and wanted to meet at a bar and I was tihnking ''dammit, i'll screw it up and have nothing to say!!'' but then she agreed to come straight over. I literally invited her in, walked her to my room, and we got down too it wit zero LMR. She was about a 6. Only 19 and i'm in my 30' s so all good

My theory on game and girls has already changed! I've realised that one can get fairly high numbers without even needing game thanks to tinder!!

I registered at another 'game' type forum recently (I won't link or mention name) and spent a long time reading peoples journals last week. They don't really believe in 'game' as such, but they just see pulling girls as a numbers game where there is not skill/technique.

Anyway, people are hitting very high numbers just through tinder. Their cold approaching gets them laid once every 250 approaches or so, but tinder is like using hookers without paying money over!

i have another one lined up for Friday. I think i'm gonna go from nearly virgin to regualr sex thanks to tinder.

IO had to buy a new phone, though! I tihnk my account was messed up due to having multipple accounts on one phone or something and so NEVER got a match....like....ever!
09-20-2016 03:37 AM
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Post: #48
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-20-2016 03:37 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Banged a girl from tinder last night. Got a match after I came home from football. She said ''what are you looking for?'' I said ''a hookup''. She said ''me too. Just broke up with my boyfriends so nothing serious''. I arranged to meet her at my house. First of all she put a spanner in the works and wanted to meet at a bar and I was tihnking ''dammit, i'll screw it up and have nothing to say!!'' but then she agreed to come straight over. I literally invited her in, walked her to my room, and we got down too it wit zero LMR. She was about a 6. Only 19 and i'm in my 30' s so all good

My theory on game and girls has already changed! I've realised that one can get fairly high numbers without even needing game thanks to tinder!!

I registered at another 'game' type forum recently (I won't link or mention name) and spent a long time reading peoples journals last week. They don't really believe in 'game' as such, but they just see pulling girls as a numbers game where there is not skill/technique.

Anyway, people are hitting very high numbers just through tinder. Their cold approaching gets them laid once every 250 approaches or so, but tinder is like using hookers without paying money over!

i have another one lined up for Friday. I think i'm gonna go from nearly virgin to regualr sex thanks to tinder.

IO had to buy a new phone, though! I tihnk my account was messed up due to having multipple accounts on one phone or something and so NEVER got a match....like....ever!

Congrats on the notch. That being said, the upfront approach is not the best as it removes plausible deniability for the girl. In other words, her "what are you looking for" question would've been better to answer indirectly with some cocky funny. The girl you ran across was a "yes girl" - she wanted dick and you were the first one she found above her bar. Game didn't matter much there. You just had to not fuck up.

It's true that you'll hit a home run if you go up to bat enough times. See it as an encouragement and work on your technique - game is truly played with the maybe girls.

If you're referring to RSD, their approach is generally looked down upon around here because they spam approach without making adjustments, making entire cities worse for everyone. See https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-58317.html for some discussions.

Data Sheet Maps | On Musical Chicks | Rep Point Changes | Au Pairs on a Boat
Captainstabbin: "girls get more attractive with your dick in their mouth. It's science."
Spaniard88: "The "believe anything" crew contributes: "She's probably a good girl, maybe she lost her virginity to someone with AIDS and only had sex once before you met her...give her a chance.""
09-20-2016 07:35 AM
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Mjölnir Offline
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Post: #49
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-20-2016 03:37 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  My theory on game and girls has already changed! I've realised that one can get fairly high numbers without even needing game thanks to tinder!!

Congrats on the notch man, BUT, you're not using game, you are just doing what every other guy is doing..

You got WIA posting in your thread and you come up with some heavy game denialism...

If you responded to that girl who said "I have 5 cats" with something like: Oh, so you're cat lady.. That explains the attitude

It might not worked, but.. At least you wouldn't be like the other 20 guys that tried to talk to her that night.

I always have this in my mind when i'm with a girl (even my mother). "Game is just trolling woman", "Talk to woman like you talk to little kids" aka don't take them seriously. My game it's probably one of the worst, that's why I try to refrain from posting on the game section.

But you've got some reading to do..

Also, looks like to me that you're very insecure. Try inflating your self confidence, I always talk to girls like i'm way out of their league, especially with 7+'s. (I surely am not), That seems to amuse them and get they hamster spinning on why i am such a confident bastard.
09-20-2016 12:33 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #50
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-20-2016 12:33 PM)Mjölnir Wrote:  
(09-20-2016 03:37 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  My theory on game and girls has already changed! I've realised that one can get fairly high numbers without even needing game thanks to tinder!!

Congrats on the notch man, BUT, you're not using game, you are just doing what every other guy is doing..

Cheers! Well according to the guys in the 'i just got laid' tread, tinder lays still counts as 'game'. Reads Gio's posts.

However, I do see your point. But all we really want is sex, and as long as you don't pay for it, it doesn't really matter how you get it. Tinder seems to make it fairly easy.


I mean, i'm obviously gonna keep approaching girls and still using game that i've learn from the 5 books that i've read, but the success rate can't compare to tidner. Just look at the 'I just got laid' thread to see the distribution! It's nearly all tinder lays


If you responded to that girl who said "I have 5 cats" with something like: Oh, so you're cat lady.. That explains the attitude

To be honest, the last time I said something like that to a girl I ended up nearly getting in a fist fight with a white knight after the girl went mad!

It might not worked, but.. At least you wouldn't be like the other 20 guys that tried to talk to her that night.

Obviously it wouldn't have worked, but I don't think anything would have 'worked'. She was just a rude girl who didn't want me speaking to her. No big deal and I just laughed her off. I maybe should have 'amplified and agreed' as you as apparently supposed to do with shit tests, and said something like ''Yeah, i'm the most boring person in the world. i have awards for it'' but whatever.

''Game is just trolling woman", "Talk to woman like you talk to little kids" aka don't take them seriously. My game it's probably one of the worst...

Are you saying that your 'troll women' / 'treat them like a kid' isn't working for you here? Either way, I kind of agree with yuo though and that's kind of my frame of mind too.

But you've got some reading to do..

I've read bang, doubleyourdating, magic bullets, bookofpook and the game. No more reading for me for a while!!



Also, looks like to me that you're very insecure. Try inflating your self confidence, I always talk to girls like i'm way out of their league, especially with 7+'s. (I surely am not), That seems to amuse them and get they hamster spinning on why i am such a confident bastard.

Insecure how out of interest? And yeah, Confidence is good, but You can't really just magic up confidence, but Hopefully my confidence will grow as I start nailing tinder girls

Thanks for posting.

regards
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2016 01:08 PM by subterfuge.)
09-20-2016 12:57 PM
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