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subterfuge journal
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Mjölnir Offline
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Post: #51
RE: subterfuge journal
^ Nah, not saying it's not working, have been doing reasonably well for now.. I mean that my game it's probably not nearly as good as the guys who've been posting here, since i've first found out about game around a year ago..

Insecure in the way you see yourself. Actually you can.. Sure it's not like the one you get from banging dozens of hot babes... But.

In the back of my mind i always tought: I'm not ugly as hell, but not good looking either.. and that translated to a vibe like "i'm lucky to have this chick talking to me" which made me lost several girls during my teenager years (well i kinda still am) that actually wanted me to bang them ¬¬.

Words are very powerful, talk to yourself in the mirror if that's what you need, lie to you brain 1000x, perhaps you're not the tall, good looking, and rich dude. But you're the shit. Believe me, you're a catch for whatever girl you meet. They're lucky to have you.

Do you lift ? Acomplishing things in the gym and seeing your body changing it's a great way to build solid confidence too.

I may be exaggerating here, only you know where you stand with your confidence. But i hope you can get the picture. That helped me a lot, girls often think i'm a player and that i banged lots of girls (i've banged 4 and it didn't lose my virginity till 18, I'm 19).

The cat lady line actually worked for me not too long ago, But it depends on the girl, delivery and body language, place etc..

Seems to me that your biggest problem is the girls you have access to. I'm from Brazil so I can only imagine the level of bitchness of these UK broads you're dealing with.. So what works for me might not work for you and vice-versa.

Hope I've brought some value.. I'll be following your journal,

Best of luck
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2016 09:22 AM by Mjölnir.)
09-21-2016 09:20 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #52
RE: subterfuge journal
Hey, man. Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I do work out. At least 4 times per week at the moment.

You're probably right in that the only thing effecting my confidence is probably that I don't see myself as 'good looking' and despite not being a 'game denier' I know for a fact taht being good looking helps LOADS!!!!. I've seen it with my own eyes, again and again over the years with my good looking friends who get laid with zero game.

And yeah, the attitude of the UK girls is a killer! I'm confident that i'd do a lot better with 'cold approach' in the US or somewhere, but some of you probably don't realise the attitude of lots of the girls here, combined with the cultural tendancy to be very weary of strangers. So together, you can really get shot down hard for simply walking up to a girl and simling and saying ''Hey! What's up?!''

I've not given up on cold approach, though. But I've realised that tinder means that even guys like me can get laid, and it makes sense taht most of the guys in the 'just got laid' thread do it all through tinder.

I'm still 'practicing' and getting out there and approaching girls, though. But i've read all of the books and i'm increasing my approaches, so not sure what else I can do to improve my odds with cold approach other than hope for a bit of luck and for the 'numbers game' to kick in soon!

tinder bang for tomorrow looks very good. Agreed to come straight to my place which I think is always a 'sure thing'!
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2016 06:07 AM by subterfuge.)
09-23-2016 06:06 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #53
RE: subterfuge journal
ps - I'm assuming i'm not allowed to link to other forums? Can someone confirm, pls
09-23-2016 08:05 AM
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #54
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-23-2016 06:06 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  And yeah, the attitude of the UK girls is a killer! I'm confident that i'd do a lot better with 'cold approach' in the US or somewhere, but some of you probably don't realise the attitude of lots of the girls here, combined with the cultural tendancy to be very weary of strangers. So together, you can really get shot down hard for simply walking up to a girl and simling and saying ''Hey! What's up?!''

Ever been to the US? Not a cakewalk here either. I've been to the UK and did my share of approaching, banged one local. Went all over southeast England and Scotland, women weren't noticeabley bitchier than the US. It's all about getting out there and getting experience and learning from it. If you're regularly getting shot down hard for the above you need to work on style and subcommunication.
09-23-2016 09:45 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #55
RE: subterfuge journal
(09-23-2016 09:45 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  Ever been to the US? Not a cakewalk here either. I've been to the UK and did my share of approaching, banged one local. Went all over southeast England and Scotland, women weren't noticeabley bitchier than the US. It's all about getting out there and getting experience and learning from it. If you're regularly getting shot down hard for the above you need to work on style and subcommunication.

Hey, man. I actually have been to the US a number of times! I'm not saying that I was boning every girl I saw, but there was a drastic difference in the friendliness/openness to talk to strangers that I certainly wasn't the only one to notice.

It's like Americans are trained to answer your question and then ask one back. If I ask a US girl how they are, without fail they'd answer and then say ''how are you?!''. This almost NEVER happens in the UK. Asking me how I am in return is inviting further conversation with a stranger....a big 'no no' in general!

I'm sure that in certain up-market trendy clubs, US girls can be just as rude, but the rude UK girls I meet have this attitude when they're just drinking in a crap bar in my home town, well outside London!

As for 'getting out there and getting experience' like I say, I don't plan on giving up and still do cold approach, but I don't really feel as though anything has changed/improved in my 100 or so approaches.

I have adjusted my expectations a little though, which is good for my brain.

I was reading too many posts by people who implied that game is some sort of magic where you can pull whoever you like, but on another forum (I won't link) even teh guys who claim to be very good only seem to get laid from like 1 in every 100+ approaches or so, so in theory, maybe i'm due to get laid soon(ish) from cold approach! Smile

I've read all the books and i'm out there approaching when I can, so just gotta wait and see if 'it works' or not I guess!
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2016 04:26 AM by subterfuge.)
09-24-2016 04:24 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #56
RE: subterfuge journal
I'm still alive.

Had a few more lays under my belt from tinder. One girl was like half my age. One was a bit ropey.

It's changed my perspective. For a while i'd read about some of the guys here banging new girls every night and I simply couldn't believe it and I thought ''they must be some sort of 'game God'!!'', but I now see that tinder kind of means that lots of the time, you just don't need game at all. Maybe the guys getting laid every night have no more 'game' than me!! mind shift.

Anyway, still doing cold approach on the side on the weekends. No results to speak of really, but the brutal rejections are becoming less. Still just running out of things to say early into the interaction, or sometimes managing to somehow creep them out without meaning too!

Gonna keep going to see if I get any better, but i'm less concerned about all that stuff now since I've got my new phone and discovered tinder!


EDIT:

Here's some aproaches from a few nights back


irst approach was with 2 girls standing by a table at a bar. They both seemed to be majorly into their phones and were giggling.
I just walked over and said ''What are you two up too?! I feel like I'm missing out!''.
They were friendly off the bat (a welcome surprise)
''we're snapchatting!'' - then they showed me some pics of themselves that they'd just taken with the app that gives you dog ears and stuff.
I said ''Do me! group photo!'' then they put their arms around me and took a photo of the 3 of us.
I don't remember exactly how the conversation went, but they asked me what phone I have and we talked phones and apps for a minute or two.
I asked them where they were going that night.
It started to slightly rain (we were outside) and once of them said ''I'm getting wet'' and then they both giggled I said ''You two are naughty. You've got dirty minds!'' They both laughed.
I can't remember what I said next, but I remember her replying to whatever I said with ''I've got a boyfriend, and so has she!''
I ejected soon after that


There was this really pretty girl standing quite near me. Just my type. Gorgeous eyes, and looked really young.
She has a fur coat on.
''Hey! - I like your coat. But if it's real fur, we can't be friends'' (I was sure to smile lots when I said this, as sometimes in my experience, girls can think you're being serious if they don't know you)
She wasn't rude or anything, but didn't look that interested.
She said ''I don't even know if it's real or not''
I asked her where she was going that night and who she was with, but her answers were very short, and I didn't feel as though she gave me anything to 'work with'.
I thought i'd try the old 'make assumptions' thing, and guessed what her job might be based on her look. She just said like 'nope'.
Soon after she just moved away from me about 6 foot so I decided to leave her alone.


There were these 2 girls standing near me and it started to rain a little bit, and I was under the protection of like a giant umbrella thing that was in the beer garden, and they were maybe too shy to get under it as it was busy and they were getting a bit wet.
I said ''Come here, you two! I'll let you under, but you gotta be cool!''
They laughed and said thanks and got under it with me.
I noticed one of them had a plane looking drink, and I said ''what's that?!''
She said ''just water - i'm driving tonight''.
I teased her and said ''You said you were cool! liar. Out you get! (and lightly pushed her as it to get her out of the protection and back out into the rain)
She laughed and kind of hit me.
I tried to guess what she done for a job, and we kind of vibed for a while, but after about 5 minutes they both moved away.
I wasn't actually attracted to either of them so no big deal. Was more for practice.


edit: Just remembered one last mini approach as I was abuot to go get a cab home.
there was this pretty girl walking slowly in front of me. I walked past her and then looked back and smile and said ''Hey! what's up!''
She smiled and said her feet hurt.
I said ''want a piggy back!!?''
she surprised me and said yes, lol. So I said, "go on then, jump on!2
She got on my back and I walked her a minute down the road to the cab rank, lol.
Can't remember what we spoke about. When I put her down, I tried to talk to her, but she managed to get a cab almost straight away and I didn't see her again.
happy hunting.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 09:45 AM by subterfuge.)
10-06-2016 09:44 AM
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Post: #57
RE: subterfuge journal
Tinder has dried up for me so i'm having to rely on the dreaded cold approach. Still failing to get to a 'hook point' where they seem interested/are asking me questions.

I did get opened by a very hot girl last night, though. It's painful because she was very hot and was just floating about by herself. I've sen vids that suggest that that is a damn good sign for a girl looking to hook up.

So she walked over to me and asked me where was good to go around here in terms of clubs.
I told her the name of the main club.
Then I asked where she was from.
She told me the name of her town (just like 15 minutes away. I just live in a small town in the South East of England don't forget!)
I then replied and mentioned a few bars that I sometimes go to in her town and we spoke briefly about a certain club there that I used to go too which had a bad reputation.
I asked her what brought her out to my town tonight.
She just said 'a change of scenery'
At this point I was thinking about asking her what she does for work etc, but was also worried about it looking like a job intwerview and was wondering how to make teh converssation fun, but in that brief 5 second pause, she just said ''Anyway. See ya later'' and walked off.

Then I saw her again in a different bar much later on, standing by the dance floor. I approached her and said ''Hey! You again. Are you glad you came to *name of my town*??'' and she just kind of half smiled (as if to acknowledge that she had heard me), and then turned her back to me! ouch, lol.

Then about 30 minutes later I saw another guy approach her, and they were both laughing and kinoing within about 1 minute! I was thinking ''How the hell did he do that?!! What did he say??'' I was honestly thinking about going up to him once she'd left him and asking him! Probably should have done. (he didn't get her either, though)

Just before leaving I saw another really hot girl wearing some crazy boots, and nearly opened her by telling her I liked them, but then remembered the 'no compliment' advice, so Just smiled at her and said ''Hey, what's up?'', and she said 'hi', but then some guy came out of nowhere and literally bear hugged her! Probably a boyfriend or just a friend

Will be out on Friday in a different town for more cold approach - hopefully the rejections won't be 'bad' ones!
I'd love to somehow have a conversation for more than a minute or 2 with them actually contributing so that maybe we can banter, giving me a chance to actually use some 'game'
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2016 04:05 PM by subterfuge.)
10-26-2016 04:03 PM
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Post: #58
RE: subterfuge journal
Went to a different town last night with some friends.
I was feeling a bit down/hopeless after reading a bit post about 'inner game' that implied that unless you have an amazing job in a field that you love where getting up for work in the morning makes you smile from ear to ear, you'll suck with girls. Still, after a few beers, i'd forgotten about it but decided to forget about girls for the night and just enjoy my friends company.

We went to a bar and my friend kept insisting that it was a gay bar and that all of the guys in there were checking him out! (it obviously wasnt) He wouldn't shut up, so I said to him ''Fine! I'll ask someone!'' I looked around and there were 2 girls sitting at a table.

I went over and smiled and said ''Hey, guys! Quick question for ya....Is this a gay bar?!'' They both laughed and were really receptive which took me by surprise. Probably a friendlier town than my home town where I usually drink, but also having a genuine opener probably made me feel more confident as opposed to just going over to them and being like ''Hey, what's up? what do yuo do? bla bla bla''

We spoke for a good 20 minutes and I was holding strong eye contact. I was being kind of flirty and I made her laugh a few times. I tried to do some light kino a few times. The first time when I just touched her arm, she looked slightly taken back and kind of looked at her own arm, so I waited a while before doing it again. Didn't want to creep her out.

She was like 25. Her friend was just 18 and had a really pretty face, although was a little chubby (baby fat!)

My friend turned up and chatted to the other one. It was actually going surprisingly well (first interaction in MONTHS where the girl actually asked me lots of questions and filled in silences as opposed to the other way around), but then my friend decided he wanted to leave them and get back to our friends, so I decided to leave them, too. I told her where we'd be later and that was that. Also thought it might be good to 'eave on a high' a they say in some pickup books i've read. And it was still kind of early.

Then went to a different bar. Got talking to 2 sisters. One was crazy hot and just 18. I love young girls!!! Sad They were friendly enough, but I don't think they were interested. Shame.

Then we went to a little club. At this point I don't remember a great deal, but I was approaching lots of girls. I've learnt that when there's music, even if it's not an actual 'club' atmosphere, talking much is kind of pointless and it's all about touch. I grabbed a few girls and was being playful.

Then some girl started grinding herself on my really fast/ I turned her around and picked her up so she was facing me and kind of straddling me. She was very hot but she was just being a tease/flirt. I tried to kiss her. Rejected. But I acted like I didn't care, and then she kept coming back to me and grinding me again. Again I think I tried to ksis her at some point and I think again she kind of turned her head.

Then I saw another girl. I can't exactly remember quite how it happened, but we were kissing for a while. But she didn't seem THAT into me? As if she felt that it was too soon. Like she seemed a bit shy and was the first one to pull away each time. Then someone came over to me and told me that most of my friends had been thrown out of the club and that we had to go so that we could share a cab home.

During that time, the girl from the first bar ('gay bar') came in and was talking to my friend, but apparently she saw me kissing the other girl and told my friend that she was now not interested as she thought I was a 'player'. haha. A 'player'! Players get laid! I don't! Smile

I got the kissing girls number but it seems flakey, plus it's a bit far away anyway.

People say the open doesn't matter, but with the good interaction from the first bar (I wish I had more interactions like that!) I felt as though it all stemmed from the open. If I had have had 'nothing' and been like ''Hey, what are you guys up too??'' I just know from experience that the whole interaction would have been a bit colder and they'd have been more defensive. But because I had a genuine question that was also kind of playful, they were immediately receptive.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2016 05:07 AM by subterfuge.)
10-29-2016 04:43 AM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #59
RE: subterfuge journal
Don't get much opportunity to game during the week, but I went to play football after work and there was this gorgeous girl sitting near where we were playing (I play in a league)

She was sitting down wearing a massive coat with a fur hood.

I said '''Hey! You look like a Russian spy!''
She laughed.
I said ''Are you just here to perv on the guys playing football?''
''haha! Yeah!''
'me 'I knew it!''
her: ''haha, no, actually my boyfriend is playing there (and she pointed towards him, on the pitch next to where me and my team were playing)
''Oh, right! Cool. Anyway, My game is starting now. Wish me luck!'' and I ejected.

I might make a spreadsheet to tally up all of my approaches so far and organise them to see if I can spot any patterns (other than just 'rejection'! Smile )
11-03-2016 06:45 AM
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Gorgiass Offline
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Post: #60
RE: subterfuge journal
You can think of openers, and most conversational snippets really, in terms of giving or taking value. They don't matter much in the scheme of a relationship, or bang, or even a lengthy conversation if you can transition out of them is what people mean when they say that. A certain portion of girls will blow a guy out now matter what he says, others you can work through but will probably be more trouble than it's worth. There's no magic opener that will get 99% of girls to engage.

If you're not making it past the opener regularly then it matters hugely, if you can often get in lengthy conversations and get girls back to your house but run into issues with LMR the opener doesn't matter much at all. Perspective. There's little difference between opening with "I'm not usually a fan of this place but tonight's DJ is awesome. Sort of like..." and "Damn, this drink tastes pretty light on the vodka. Knew I should've gone for whiskey on the rocks. How did she do with yours?" Nothing special but they're giving something, therefore much different than "what are you up to?"

"What are you up to" is asking strangers to come up with some response (probably a boring, generic one they've given 1000 times) to keep a conversation going with a guy they don't know right off the bat - taking value, and "Is this a gay bar" is giving value in the form of laughter. If you open with a line which is requesting something (value) from a person you don't know, you are more likely to get blown out than if you add value.
11-03-2016 08:24 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #61
RE: subterfuge journal
(11-03-2016 08:24 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  If you're not making it past the opener regularly then it matters hugely, if you can often get in lengthy conversations and get girls back to your house but run into issues with LMR the opener doesn't matter much at all

Hey,
I'm not sure how many approaches i've made now. I'm guessing it's over 100.
I'm still often getting more or less rejected at the open, although maybe less than before. Hard to judge. Southern UK girls. Not friendly like Northern people. I'd say i'm getting past the opener a little more than I used too. My approach anxiety is pretty low now. The girls have beaten that out of me after some 'BRUTAL' rejections after simply smiling and saying 'hi!' - and they didn't kill me, so whatever.

But i'm still unable to really get much past normal conversation. I'm thinking of trying some 'routines' which I gather are generally frowned upon nowadays, but I think they might help me, as I often don't really know what to talk about soon after the open. Some girls are easy in that they are responsive to general chit-chat, but others are impossible to keep their attention, and I wonder if a routine would work on them girls to buy me some time and establish comfort.

Sometimes i'll try to tease them and stuff, and then i'll try to start kino, but usually I can't get much past very light kino before they reject me or a friend pulls them away or something.

(11-03-2016 08:24 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  "What are you up to" is asking strangers to come up with some response (probably a boring, generic one they've given 1000 times) to keep a conversation going with a guy they don't know right off the bat - taking value, and "Is this a gay bar" is giving value in the form of laughter. If you open with a line which is requesting something (value) from a person you don't know, you are more likely to get blown out than if you add value.


Funny thing is that I started using ''what are you guys up too?'' as an opener recently on the advice of someone on a different pickup forum I read who is VERY well respected on their forum!

But yeah, when I used my own impulsive ''is this a gay bar?'' (off of the back of a genuine question that my friend had) I could immediately feel it being received well. It also gave me something to talk about for a bit (I was pointing out people and making jokes and she was laughing).

It's hard to know whether i'm doing something drastically wrong or whether despite reading a number of pickup books, i've somehow not internalised things properly.

My concern is that I'm not sure quite how different my pickup attempts are at the moment compared to before i'd ever even heard of game! I think the problem is that they really aren't much different despite reading 5 game books, watching lots of infields and making lots of actual approaches

Unfortunately 'Game' doesn't give you a script, so my conversations are very similar. I think I try to touch girls more which isn't always well received! I am better with my eye contact, and I also probably try to tease girls more and am less serious with them. But other than that, i'm either still unclear of what game actually is, or maybe since i'm rarely able to keep a girl for more than 10 minutes, I don't get a chance to utilize other aspects, such as asking if I can use their bathroom! Smile

Whenever I hear a guy on here who has sex with a new girl every night say ''I ran my game on her'', I find myself DESPERATE to see a script of their conversation! Smile

They make it sound very easy - In fact some of them actually say that it IS very (too) easy.
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2016 03:29 PM by subterfuge.)
11-04-2016 03:26 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-04-2016 03:26 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  Funny thing is that I started using ''what are you guys up too?'' as an opener recently on the advice of someone on a different pickup forum I read who is VERY well respected on their forum!
...
Whenever I hear a guy on here who has sex with a new girl every night say ''I ran my game on her'', I find myself DESPERATE to see a script of their conversation! Smile

They make it sound very easy - In fact some of them actually say that it IS very (too) easy.

Context is everything, what's the other forum? You're fine to mention other sites, except PUAhate/Sluthate on here, and if anyone is reading those, that's their problem right there.

"What are you guys up to?" coming from Connor Murphy or any other aesthetics crew guy is going to get a vastly different reaction than it would coming from the other 99% of us. Experienced guys can also often pull this off because they've mastered the body language and tonality necessary to do so. An average looking beginner saying it eagerly will get blown out almost every time.

You can read some of my interactions verbatim in the approach thread, I tried to document portions of them verbatim for this reason. Many other guys have as well, although it has been a higher proportion of newbies recently so you might have to go back a little ways.
11-05-2016 11:21 AM
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Post: #63
RE: subterfuge journal
The site I referred to is puaforums.co.uk, although I also looks at a few other picup sites aswell. (certainly not puahate stuff)
Every forum has a few 'gurus', but every single one on every different forum often gives rather conflicting advice.

One such guru told me that his game is very boring, but that's exactly what I felt I was doing wrong for a very long time. Being boring! People who do well tend to bring the FUN in my experience.

I will look at that approach thread, although I think I might benefit more from full, detailed field reports of same night lays which show how the conversation went throughout the night as I think part of my lack of confidence stems from the fact that I don't really have any sort of roadmap in my head.

Maybe I could spot things in others interactions that I need to start introducing into my own; What they talk about after the open in a bar, How they deal with girls not saying much, Do they tend to start of flirty straight away (if so, how?) or do they start off by being platonic just trying to build comfort, how they go from friendly platonic banter to showing their intention without directly stating it in a clumsy way or without being creepy with kino, whether there are patterns in their vibe/frame which governs their responses to questions and their general conversation, actual examples of push/pull, whether they force conversation topics in order to make physical escelation and sexual talk more natural, whether they tend to say certain things before 'making a move' so that the whole thing is smoother, how they go about leading the girl back to their place etc etc

I believe there is a sub linked to reddits SEDDIT where one can find these sorts of field reports. I'll see what I can find.
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2016 11:54 AM by subterfuge.)
11-05-2016 11:52 AM
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Post: #64
RE: subterfuge journal
Went out last night. I wasn't feeling great in terms of confidence and wasn't gonna go out, but decided I may aswell.

my first approach was on 2 girls sitting down who I overheard talking. One of them was ridiculously good looking. I opened them by asking where they were from since they weren't speaking English. The super hot one didn't speak any English, so I spoke with the other one. They were Spanish. I asked her what she done for a living, and what their plans were for the night, and why she was in this country, but the conversation, as is often the case, just didn't go anywhere, and I ejected when I ran out of things to say, plus her friends was obviously feeling a bit left out, not being able to understand anything, so it felt like the right thing to do.

Thoughts: I just don't seem to be getting better at conversation. Should I ask about their hobbies or something? It just feels so 'childish' to ask that sort of thing for some reason.

Next approach was in a different bar, and a girl standing with a friend had a red coat on. I just smiled at her and said ''Hey, You look like little red riding hood in that coat''. She was very hostile straight away, and said something like ''what do you want?!! You don't even know me'' with an attitude. Usually I try to see if I can at least practice to see if I can 'turn' these sorts of girls, but I just couldn't be bothered on this occasion and I turned my back to her as she was in mid-sentence, going off on me.

thoughts: I've made hundreds of approaches now, and I seem to be spotting a pattern that when opening girls with anything 'jokey', it needs to be something that is IMPOSSIBLE to be taken as any sort of insult. Maybe she thought I was making fun of her? Like 'little red riding hood' is some sort of an insult to her fashion sense? A similar thing happened a while ago when I teased a girl about her coat being real fur (using the phrasing I read from a pickup guru), and she was very hostile straight away. I honestly think maybe the VERY OLD SCHOOL OPENER of pretending to recognise the girl might be my new 'go too' for a while! I'm yet to get a 'bad' reaction from it, and it's actually how a girl opened me a while ago, and since most girls have good social skills, maybe it's a good opener! i dunno

Next approach was in that same bar, but on the little dancefloor area.

I usually read that compliment openers and telling the girl that you think she is hot are bad things to do, but at the same time, others tell me that it's fine and that I should experiment with different stuff, so I gave it a try.

There was a girl with gorgeous eyes and a pretty face. Probably about 19. A good decade younger than me

I just walked upto her and said ''You! Who are you?!'' She smiled and said, ''why do you want to know who I am?'' and I said ''Because I think you're fucking cute'' She laughed and said ''thanks!'' I asked her who she was with, but we got separated a few seconds later. I think one of her friends pulled her away.

I was thinking that maybe i'd blown it by telling her I thought she was cute. About 15 minutes went by and I was dancing in a difference area of the bar, and I noticed that the same girl just walked towards me from across the room in a direct path, not breaking eye contact. She walked up to me and didn't say anything. Just looked at me in silence fairly close to me. I just pulled her towards me and we made out.

And seconds after the kiss she said, ''wait there, i'm coming back in a minute''......I never saw here again Sad

thoughts: Maybe I shouldn't have kissed her so soon without really talking much? Made her think I was only after one thing? But it's hard to NOT kiss someone when you think that you can. And why did she just stand there looking at standing so close without talking?

Next approach was another one on the dancefloor, but was an instant rejection. I just stuck my hand out and she was like ''Leave me alone'' lol.

My final approach was when I saw a hot girl in a fur jacket by the bar. I just said ''I bet you're hot in that!''. Was a bit drunk at this point so can't remember how the conversation went, but I remember her telling me she'd just broke up with her boyfriend. In the past, girls telling me this has lead to some success, so I was slightly optimistic. She seemed to like me at least somewhat, i think. I made her laugh out loud a few times. Can't remember what I said exactly Sad

I remember her telling me that since her breakup she has no confidence and has low self esteem. This would probably be good if you were an expert at game and knew how to game girls with confidence issues, but I didn't know what to say in terms of using 'seduction', so I just done what came naturally and showed empathy and gave her a hug and told her she was cool. Probably the 'wrong' move at a guess?! Sad

I was gonna try to spend more time with her, but she was only in there to pick her friend up and wasn't drinking and her friend was waiting for her so not sure what I could have done other than getting her number

Slightly jealous to find out this morning that a n old work mate who I was speaking too that night that I bumped into got laid. Don't know how hot the girl was, but still jealous. Trying to work my way into his social group to see if I can learn how he does it.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2016 02:49 PM by subterfuge.)
11-13-2016 02:34 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-13-2016 02:34 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  Went out last night. I wasn't feeling great in terms of confidence and wasn't gonna go out, but decided I may aswell.

my first approach was on 2 girls sitting down who I overheard talking. One of them was ridiculously good looking. I opened them by asking where they were from since they weren't speaking English. The super hot one didn't speak any English, so I spoke with the other one. They were Spanish. I asked her what she done for a living, and what their plans were for the night, and why she was in this country, but the conversation, as is often the case, just didn't go anywhere, and I ejected when I ran out of things to say, plus her friends was obviously feeling a bit left out, not being able to understand anything, so it felt like the right thing to do.

I'm getting bored just reading it, can only imagine how the girls felt. You interviewing her for a job or trying to get laid? Be fun!

(11-13-2016 02:34 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  Next approach was in a different bar, and a girl standing with a friend had a red coat on. I just smiled at her and said ''Hey, You look like little red riding hood in that coat''.





Humor involves tension and release, don't smile at your own punchline. But where are you going to go with that? Hell, a better opener would be to sing her the opening bars of that song.

Some interactions last night - opened a girl wearing a zebra-ish print dress by asking deadpan if it was real, she responded in kind, soon after I was telling her that I never shot a zebra but just got back from a big game trip where I bagged 3 giraffes and Cecil the lion (BS obviously). Could've banged her or her friend if I had better logistics.

Another at the bar - "what's a girls gotta do to get a drink at this place?" - very slight smile, eyes squinted, not giving her everything yet, she opens up, bartender comes over soon after I tell her "I did that", still deadpan. How do you do it? "Just natural charm I guess. I've never had to wait more than 43 seconds for a drink in my life. That was 26 seconds, I was starting to sweat a bit." She's eating it up, then the fiance comes over...

And so on. I didn't get laid last night but point is that I often do, and this is the vibe I have the entire time. FUN.


Also note that I'm not going in with a wide, approval seeking smile. A woman isn't going to viciously blow out a guy that could be dangerous. Some initial tension can be a good thing.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2016 07:11 PM by Gorgiass.)
11-13-2016 07:09 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-13-2016 07:09 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  [quote='subterfuge' pid='1444228' dateline='1479065645']
Went out last night. I wasn't feeling great in terms of confidence and wasn't gonna go out, but decided I may aswell.

my first approach was on 2 girls sitting down who I overheard talking. One of them was ridiculously good looking. I opened them by asking where they were from since they weren't speaking English. The super hot one didn't speak any English, so I spoke with the other one. They were Spanish. I asked her what she done for a living, and what their plans were for the night, and why she was in this country, but the conversation, as is often the case, just didn't go anywhere, and I ejected when I ran out of things to say, plus her friends was obviously feeling a bit left out, not being able to understand anything, so it felt like the right thing to do.

I'm getting bored just reading it, can only imagine how the girls felt. You interviewing her for a job or trying to get laid? Be fun!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yeah, i'm sure they were bored! With them girls, I actually had 4 other guys around me trying to talk to them too, but none of us were able too entertain them enough to make them want to stick around, but like since only one of them spoke English (which wasn't perfect, either) I guess it was tough. But I don't know how to be fun with a stranger who I don't know anything about, and if i'm not allowed to ask them questions about themselves (since, like you say, it bores them) i'm just not sure what i'm supposed to be saying, or how the first 5 mins of a 'fun' conversation should look.

I might be able to think of a 'fun' opener sometimes, but not sure where to go from there in order to be 'fun' once that opener conversation has played itself out.

It's kind of like:
me: *insert fun opener*
her: hahah
me: play off of that opener with another fun comment
her: *plays along*
THE CONVERSATION WITH THAT OPENER HAS NOT RUN IT'S COURSE

then it's like 'Errr...I know what i'm NOT supposed to say (guess what she does for a job, ask who she's here with, ask how her night is going etc), but not sure what then I AM supposed to say.


I might have to go old school mystery method and bring a deck of cards out with me or something!!
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2016 05:01 AM by subterfuge.)
11-14-2016 05:00 AM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Made eye contact with a gorgeous girl in the forecourt of a petrol station last night, but I guess that's WAY out of my league - walking towards her car, in a rush with other cars waiting for her to move etc. I thought about approaching her for a second, but realised I didn't know what i'd say. She did seem to look at me for a while, though.

Still researching various forums, trying to get a better idea of what to say at bars after I open someone.

I know NOT to ask her anything like who she is with, what her plans are for teh night, what she does for a job etc as I guess i'm boring the girls, but then i'm not left with much I can think of, AND it needs to be 'fun'.

Maybe this is where some canned routines could come in?>
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016 08:37 AM by subterfuge.)
11-15-2016 08:36 AM
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RE: subterfuge journal
subterfuge asked for my input..

So, here I am..

What are your specific questions???
(This post was last modified: 11-16-2016 12:50 PM by Giovonny.)
11-16-2016 12:49 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Tried my hand at 'day game' for the first time today and realised that it seems even harder than approaching girls in bars. I realised I had not idea how to transition after the open.

I think I maybe made life difficult for myself in terms of targets?

One girl was like 18 at most (i'm like 30) and was stacking shelves at work in a supermarket. (some people say not to bother with girls whoa re working?)
Just didn't know what to say after saying 'hi'. Not as though I could say ''So, you like working here stacking shelves?'' Smile

Next girl was at a bus shelter. Again, 18 at most. I wasn't even waiting for the bus but I saw her from across the street and thought she was super hot! I opened her and told her she was cute, but again, wasn't sure what to say after. There was nothing to comment on her clothes. Guess I could have asked her where she was heading or something, but might seem a bit stalkerish, and obviously boring.

-------------------------------------

(11-16-2016 12:49 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  subterfuge asked for my input..

So, here I am..

What are your specific questions???

edit: Hi, Giovonny

I thought maybe you'd already read the journal when I asked for your input and though you could chip in with some thoughts.
But basically, I don't seem to be getting any better. I guess I need help in all departments!
I guess specifically, for now, I need help with transitioning after opening
(Don't forget that despite today's lame effort, I stick with night game and girls in bars 99% of the time, so probably best to direct any advice towards that area)

I suck at conversation. Everyone tells me what i'm doing wrong and what NOT to say (so after opening, DON'T ask them how their night is going, who they are with, where they are going that night etc. It's boring and what every other guy does - presumably these 'other guys' don' get laid) but then I don't know what I AM supposed to say and talk about after opening.

I think I need specific examples. A good handful of them, so that I have a few lines to start little conversations with directly after opening. I say 'directly after opening', because sometimes people tell me too ask about their hobbies and stuff, but I think that comes over as socially unskilled if you ask that directly after saying 'hi'! Makes you look like a 6 year old! e.g - (''Hi, What's up?''. ''Not much, just having a wine'', ''Cool, What do you do for fun?!'')

A lot of the time, there's nothing interesting to comment on their dress which lots of people advise to do (although WIA said not too, I tihnk). Similarly, lots of the times, it's not as if some crazy event is happening in the bar. (for the people who always advise ''talk to her about the guy who just got thrown out, or about the girl being sick in the corner!!'' etc etc)

I also wonder if I should look into kind of 'routines', in terms of opening in a certain way that naturally leads to a little 'routine'. I spend time on 'Seddit' though, and they are VERY VERY against that sort of stuff, so I'm very dubious.

I've read lots of books and have made lots of approaches now. I'm losing a bit of hope, wondering if some people just aren't meant to get laid! I'm looking at maybe buying a product like 'the natural' or something as a last ditch effort to see if it helps!
(This post was last modified: 11-16-2016 07:01 PM by subterfuge.)
11-16-2016 06:58 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Have you spent time reading the approach thread in the Game forum? Gio in particular goes into great detail about his approaches and lots of others have written too. Might help something click for you.

I'm also reading Magic Bullets, it breaks things down into detail with specific examples, you might find it useful.
11-16-2016 10:32 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  Hi, Giovonny

I don't seem to be getting any better.

I guess I need help in all departments!

What is your plan to improve?

How has this plan worked?

Should you develop a new plan?

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I need help with transitioning after opening

I don't believe in "transitioning"..

You don't leave one area of social interaction and move to another area...

It should all flow together smoothly so that it feels like no transition has happened.

I would say that you need help with getting better at general conversation.

It's a macro issue not a micro.

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I stick with night game and girls in bars 99% of the time, so probably best to direct any advice towards that area

I don't do night game so be aware of that as you take my advice.

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I suck at conversation.

This is very important.

You have identified your primary issue.

You know what to focus on. Improving your conversational skills.

How to improve this?

Become obsessed with fixing it!


observe other people, books, videos, seminars, classes, coaching, practice, study, practice, experiment, trial and error, theory, real world practice, better coaches, more practice, better help, ask for help, practice, etc

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I don't know what I AM supposed to say and talk about after opening.

You are not SUPPOSED to say anything.

I recommend having fun and entertaining yourself while at the same time engaging her interests and trying to get her to take interest in you.

How to do this?

Become obsessed with improving the way you talk to girls.


observe other people, books, videos, seminars, classes, coaching, practice, study, practice, experiment, trial and error, theory, real world practice, better coaches, more practice, better help, ask for help, practice, etc

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I think I need specific examples.

Yes, specific examples always help!

How to find specific examples?

Become obsessed with finding them!

observe other people, books, videos, seminars, classes, coaching, practice, study, practice, experiment, trial and error, theory, real world practice, better coaches, more practice, better help, ask for help, practice, etc

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  A lot of the time, there's nothing interesting to comment on

If you don't find anything interesting about the world, the world will not find anything interesting about YOU!

If you are bored, the world around you will seem boring.

If you are excited, the world around you will seem exciting.

You are responsible for your level of boredom.

You are responsible for your level of excitement.

Your perception is a reflection of your imagination -- We attract people with similar imaginations. You are not attracting anyone because your imagination is currently dull.

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I also wonder if I should look into kind of 'routines'

Look into anything that successful people advise you to look into.

If it works, use it.

If not, tweak it.

Still doesn't work? Move on to another strategy.

(11-16-2016 06:58 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I'm looking at maybe buying a product like 'the natural' or something as a last ditch effort to see if it helps!

Try anything and everything to see what helps you!

Why would 'the natural" be a last ditch effort? If it doesn't work, will you just give up?

If one strategy doesn't work, try another.

Giving up is cowardly and beta

--

In conclusion, I suggest getting professional help.

If your finances were in disarray, you would want to get a financial professional to help you.

If you were obese, you would want to get a fitness trainer and nutritionist to help you.

If your house was a mess and you couldn't clean it yourself, you would want to hire a maid.
.

YOUR SEXUAL SKILL SET IS A MESS AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOT WORKING!

SEEK HELP! THERE ARE PLENTY OF SOCIAL COACHES AND DATING COACHES OUT THERE TO HELP YOU.

I admit, many of them are charlatans who will rip you off but there are some good ones..

You can hire me to help you but I am in The United States so we would be limited to phone, skype, facetime, etc.

You need someone who can meet with you face to face and go out into the field with you.

I'm sure there are coaches in the UK that can help you?

Your plan is not working very well. You need better guidance and better mentoring.. Get help!

That's my advice.
(This post was last modified: 11-17-2016 04:48 PM by Giovonny.)
11-17-2016 04:40 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Went to London last night with a few friends. I had some approach anxiety come back. Probably a result of some awful attempts at Day gaming the prior day which maybe sapped my confidence a bit.

First girl I spotted but failed to open was a really hot young girl, but she sort of had one of those auras about her that implied that she wasn't aware how hot she was. She was with 2 young guys who looked to be just friends. I actually spoke to one of the guys briefly. He was like 18 and in uni. I wasn't sure whether to ask him about the girl he was with. Might have sounded odd? At one point I thought about opening her by asking her which one of the guys was her boyfriend. Either way, I bottled it. I think I just felt too old and not attractive enough for her to be interested.

Then, In the same bar, I saw 2 fairly hot girls drinking tea at the bar! I just marched over to them and was like ''what's going on here!? Is that tea?''. They were friendly .and I teased them about drinking tea in a pub. I detected an accent.
I said ''where are you from?''. They said Italy. I asked them how long they've been her for. They said 6 months. I replied ''Well nobody told me you were coming to my Country!'' and smiled. They laughed. I made them teach me some words in Italian. Then I guessed their ages and asked them what they were up too tonight. They said they'd been shopping and were gonna go home after their tea. Even though they seemed friendly and were talkative and laughing, they both ejected fairly suddenly and went and sat down at a table together.

Then we went to another bar. On the way there, I decided to experiment with mass approaching. I literally tried to open every hot girl I saw walking towards me. 100% rejection. Most didn't even stop, lol. Still, it was good practice for approach anxiety.
Then in the next bar, I sort of helped some hot bar girl who nearly dropped a glass, and I caught it. I teased her for being clumsy and she laughed. As she laughed, I touched her on the arm, and then at that second, some female bouncer grabbed my arm and told me not to touch the bar girl!! Was super awkward! I laughed and told her to clam down, and she told me to not touch people, lol.

Then I went outside and got talking too another girl. I can't remember how I opened her unfortunately, but it was the longest conversation of the night. I'm not sure if she was at all interested or not, and i'm not sure she was ever aware that I liked her, really. I'm still very unsure of exactly how much intent i'm supposed to show. I read that i'm supposed to get them to chase me and be kind of aloof etc which I think for me, sometimes makes the girl think that I just want to be friends. She asked me if I had a girlfriend (Showing interest?), BUT her general body language/vibe and stuff made me think that she wasn't into me. She brought up 'dick pics' in conversation though and told me 'it's all about girth', lol. After about 15 minutes of talk, she ejected.

That was pretty much the end of the night. As is always the case, I was the only person talking to girls. All other 5 single guys made zero approaches. Would be great to get laid one day so that I could justify doing it, as at the moment, i'm kind of proving them right as they think it's impossible to get laid with a hot young girl on a cold approach unless you look like a young Brad Pitt!
Regarding show intentions - I often feel I either

a)Don't show enough. I maybe friendzone myself. The only way I can show intent is kino, but girls can get creeped out if you touch them too much too early, so I might not touch them much, and then sometimes they eject and I think 'I didn't even have time to show any intent since I barely touched them, and I'm not supposed to tell them that I like them'' so we just had a friendly chat and they they left maybe without even knowing that I liked them
b) Show too much to the point I wonder if I come across as over-keen. I think it's partly because I know that i'm not allowed to tell them that I think they are hot, that I try to make up for it with very strong eye contact and flirty smirks and lots of kino, but sometimes I think it makes the girl feel like she's being 'picked up'.

I can't seem to find that 'happy medium' of just being 'fun', but without friendzoning myself or making it too clear that I like her.

I've ordered 'the natural' from maxRSD - Expensive!! - I'm hoping that watching lots of FULL infields will give me a better idea about that element and maybe pick up some extra general knowledge that might help me.

SIDE NOTE: I'm kind of experiencing a change of emotions recently, and I don't know what to make of it.
My whole life, i've been jealous of people who get laid lots. I know a good looking guy who's banged over 400 STUNNING teengaers, and my blood used to boil when he'd tell me his stories. Even on this forum, I've always felt a bit sick with jealousy when I read the 'i just got laid' thread where people have sex with new girls every night. But in recent weeks, for the first time ever, I don't feel the same jealousy any more. I have no idea why this is!! I wonder if i've kind of 'given up' in my head without even realising it, and despite still actively trying to get laid and approaching lots. It's hard to describe. In the past, i'd read a story of someone having a threesome or something, and i'd think ''Damn! How are some people so lucky!? I'd love that to happen to me Sad'' and i'd feel bad, but as of very recently, I read something like that and I just think ''Cool. Not surprised, though. That's just life for most guys. Not me, unfortunately, but not to worry''

Just something I thought i'd mention! Maybe it's actually a good thing? I dunno. I just tihnk it's odd that it's came out of the blue, and after all of this time
11-20-2016 02:24 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
I don't think you need to worry too much about making it clear you are attracted to these girls, you approached her and by that fact alone she already knows what's up. When you can get away with touching her frequently and you get the impression the vibe is good, you can just try and go in for a kiss. The worst that will happen is you being rejected and learning from those experiences making you able to tweak your modus operandi over time. Try not to think about it and just have fun with everyone around you.

Don't think that guys who get laid a lot are lucky. Apart from those few genetic/financially blessed men, most of those men meeting and hooking women did the work to get where they are and are still working on improving themselves. In fact, most men are bitching about girls not wanting them and blaming everyone but themselves, THAT is life for most men. Here you'll find the men that woke up and realized they are responsible for their own succes, you are one of them.

How do I have sex without losing the vitality that comes with the high levels of T? - Elmo Louis

Easy bro - pull out and cum in your hand. Then shove that cum in your mouth and swallow to avoid losing your vitality or lowering your T. - Yardog
(This post was last modified: 11-20-2016 06:09 PM by Stimulus.)
11-20-2016 06:08 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-20-2016 02:24 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I know a good looking guy who's banged over 400 STUNNING teengaers, and my blood used to boil when he'd tell me his stories.

Can you elaborate on this guy? Do you know he's telling the truth, where was he meeting them, what style of approach generally, where was he bringing them for sex, how old was he, and so on?

Keys to the VIP had some decent approachers on it, free online, I sometimes watch to warm up. Cajun from LS was great and several others had a good vibe to mimic. Seems crazy to pay for pickup videos when there's so much great content for free, but whatever works. I hope you got a cheaper deal on that than retail.
11-20-2016 10:57 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(11-20-2016 10:57 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  
(11-20-2016 02:24 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I know a good looking guy who's banged over 400 STUNNING teengaers, and my blood used to boil when he'd tell me his stories.

Can you elaborate on this guy? Do you know he's telling the truth, where was he meeting them, what style of approach generally, where was he bringing them for sex, how old was he, and so on?

He is 30 and very good looking indeed. Close to model good looks. 6ft 4'' ripped. Good looking face.

He already had a very high notch count, but when he was like 27 he started working in magaluf (spanish holiday resort where lots of 16-18(and older) year old girls and guys, most from the UK, go to get drunk out of their minds for a few weeks and lose their inhibitions) so he had access to an unlimited supply of horny 16 year old girls literally half his age.

He's an 'Essex boy' so is very 'laddish' like most of them are. I think he just flirts with girls whilst he's working the street giving out flyers etc - From what I saw of him in the UK, he probably breaks some rules in terms of he isn't shy with the compliments (but then it's extremely doubtful that he's ever read about game). I think he'd then just arrange to meet up with the holiday girls later in a bar, and then just get them back to his hotel. He also bangs all of the other female holiday reps who are also working out there.
11-21-2016 04:25 AM
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