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subterfuge journal
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subterfuge Offline
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subterfuge journal
Thought i'd do a little journal in a last attempt to improve before i decide to throw the towel in.

I lost my virginity at a fairly normal age (17) but it was complete luck. No skill. Drunk, hot, high girl who my brother knew, and he basically dared her to let me bang her.

I was very ill from the age of 22 onwards and could have died. I still could! The experience meant that I was often in hospital etc and over time, it gave me some sort of anxiety issues. When my friends were banging girls at unbiversity, I was usually ill.

I'm now old and approaching 30, and have only slept with very small number of girls my whole life. I kind of feel like a virgin, lol.

A few years ago I started reading about 'game etc. I've read maybe 5 books now.

I tend to only approach girls on the weekends, and mainly on nights out (so, sometimes weeknights) and in ALL THAT TIME, i've only banged one girl. I was very proud of the pull because it was so so so smooth, like something out of a movie, but in hindsight, I realise that she was VERY drunk, AND she had just split up with her boyfriend, so I now think that any guy in the world could have banged her!

She was however only 19, and fairly pretty, so over a decade age gap. I like young girls.

I read the journals on various pickup forums (this one, rsd one, even seddit) and lots of guys seem to be banging like 5 new girls per week. I just can't get my head around that! lol

I generally never get close. The funny thing is that as awful as I am, most of my friends only pull through social circle and girls they work with etc, so when they saw me take that girl hom from the bar, they thought I was some sort of stud!

If only they knew!!!!

I don't really get to meet girls at work as I just work loading lorries and packing boxes, and it's all men in the warehouse.

I've tried tinder etc, but I basically get ZERO matches. Like.....none. I've had one in the last 2 months or so, and I swipe every day until i'm out of likes!

----------------------------------------

Anyway, even though I have literally hundreds of rejections i could write about, I guess I may aswell start from this weekend where I went to a few pubs (i'm in the UK)

approach 1:
girl by herself standing near to the table where me and 2 friends were drinking. She was nothing special, but I wanted to get my feet wet/practice
Looked at her, but couldn't think of anything 'clever' to open with based on oservations. nothing 'stood out'.
So, I just went with

''Hi! What's up?? I'm sub'' (and smiled)
(she looked a bit grumpy)
her: ''hi''
me: ''are you here alone?''
her: ''my friends are just coming''
me: ''what's your name?''
her: ''claire''
At this point, 2 of her friends turned up, and she turned her back to me and kind of positioned herself so that her friends were kind of making a barrier between us. Obviously not interested in me, so I just kind of played it off, and smile and said
me: ''Ok, you take it easy, Claire!''
--------------------------------------------

NEXT
I'm in a trendy kind of cocktail bar in the outside area, and 2 gorgeous girls arrive and stand near me and my friends, drinking their drinks.

Me: Hi! (smile) (I couldn't think of a good opener, so just went with the old 'just say hi' advice.)

At this point one of them turned her head away from me, and the other one just blanked me. I immediately felt a bit bad, because the look they gave me was one of ''we are out of your league!''

me: How's it going? (to both girls)
(one of them carried on blanking me, and the other one pretended that her friend didn't speak English.)
Her: She doesn't understand English.

Me: Oh? where is she from?

(at this point the 'one who can't speak English' (which was a lie, lol) kind of grabbed her friend, and they both walked back indoors in the bar)

this was extra bad, because my friends I was with (who also NEVER pull) told me that I was wasting my time trying to chat up girls who are so good looking. 'Aim lower!!'' was the advice

---------------------------------------------------

NEXT
In a different bar, and a girl is taking photos of her friends. I tap her on the shoulder

me: ''You're friends always make you the designated photo taker?''
her: ''haha...thinking about it, it is always me taking the photos!''
me: ''that sucks. Do they at least tag you in them on facebook?''
her: ''NO! I have to do it myself like a loner Sad''
me: Lets find you some new friends tonight.
her'' haha''
me: Where are you going tonight?''
her: My boyfriend is taking me out for a meal later, but gonna be here until he gets here''
me: Oh. Boyfriend?! (made a pretend super sad face. She laughed and touched me on the shoulder)
her: Awww...what sort of girl are you hoping to meet tonight? what willl she look like
me: Like you!! but with blonde hair! (this girl was brunette)
her: HAHAHA (She seemed to find this VERY funny for some reason)

At this point, some guy (not her boyfriend) completely cut in between us, and started talking to her. i tihnk he was a friend. It was a bit awkward and rude, but i didn't feel lke doing anything about it,m since I knew i wasn't gonna be able to get her anyway, so I just craned around him and said ''I gotta get back to my friends, see ya later''

-----------------------------------------------
NEXT: Girls on dance floor in loudish club, so no tlaking.

In a club now and my very good looking friend has joined us. Girls are staring at him. We go on the dancefloor together, and dance. Just me and him. Neither of us can really dance, but we are in time (have rhythm) and are just having fun.

Every few minutes, a girl will come over adn flirt with my friend. He is not really interested as he has a stunning GF and doesn't want to cheat on her. He just smiles at the girls.

Now a group of 3 girls come over, and all of them are kind of circling him. One is trying to touch his chest.

They're obviously close to me too, so I try some sort of RSD hand of god type thing, but she looks at me and shakes her head and says ''we like your friend!!!''
ouch.

Me and my friend go back to the bar. I feel like shit, lol.

----------------------------------------------------

Late now and i'm on my own and looking to get a cab. There is a gorgeous girl standing near teh cab rank and she is hioklding her shoes in her hands and is barefoot.

My brain can't tihnk of an opener for some reason. I was thinking ''she has no shoes on!! There must be a funny comment/opener you can make!!'' but nothing would come.

I was also feeling a bit shit about the action my friend could have gotten and LOOS THEORY was taking over my emotions and I was getting in a bad state, so in the end I didn't even bother approaching that girl -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's basically it for that night.

However, it's probably a decent reflection on how lots of the hundreds of attempts have gone prior to that night.

I almost feel as though in the Uk, you need a very different type of opener, since UK girls aren't anything like as approachable as US girls. If you say 'hi' to a UK girl and then as them some questions, lots of them seem VERY ON GUARD and defensive, and seem to wonder why you are talking to them since you don't know them!

So I wonder if, in the UK, an opener should always be something Funny/observational? My best interactions seem to have this ingredient, but teh problem is that lots of the time, I can't tihnk of an observational opener, because nothing is really happening. just a girl standing there. If she was wearing a fancydress outfit i might be able to come up with something, but otherwise.....

I've been at this for so long and i'm still kind of struggling at the VERY first hurdle. I make sure my body language is good/confident, I try to smile etc, but I get a huge percentage of very negative reactions. It's either my looks, or everything I've read about openers doesn't apply to UK girls, or i'm just doing something else wrong!!?
08-22-2016 06:23 AM
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polar Offline
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Post: #2
RE: subterfuge journal
On the journey of game, you're on step one - just learning to drive. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong - if anything, just lower your expectations for the time being.

Before you start being seductive, you must learn to be social. Talk to strangers, lots of them. Try to leave everyone you meet a little happier than they were.

I recommend following some sort of structured program like the one below to lose approach anxiety and improve your conversational skills. Don't use it as gospel (some of it is weird - focus on social skills first, not seduction skills) but it's a rough guideline.
http://www.goodlookingloser.com/anxiety/program

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Captainstabbin: "girls get more attractive with your dick in their mouth. It's science."
Spaniard88: "The "believe anything" crew contributes: "She's probably a good girl, maybe she lost her virginity to someone with AIDS and only had sex once before you met her...give her a chance.""
08-22-2016 02:45 PM
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Repo Offline
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Post: #3
RE: subterfuge journal
Giovonny has dropped some very relevant posts recently which could help some of your problems

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-14257...pid1378146

Also, the lack of tinder matches is concerning. Do you think you are attractive? Is there anything you can do to improve your appearance? For talking to significantly younger girls at your age, being in great shape and dressing well is important.
08-22-2016 03:35 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #4
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-22-2016 03:35 PM)Repo Wrote:  Also, the lack of tinder matches is concerning. Do you think you are attractive? Is there anything you can do to improve your appearance? For talking to significantly younger girls at your age, being in great shape and dressing well is important.

Well, I guess i'm fairly ugly. But other than plastic surgery, it's nothing that I can fix.

I mean, I already am in decent shape and try to dress well and stuff, but it's bone structure that makes someone handsome. I'm also on the short side.

I would like to get a nose job and various implants, but I obviously can't afford that!

thanks for the link. I'll check it out
08-22-2016 03:48 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #5
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-22-2016 02:45 PM)polar Wrote:  On the journey of game, you're on step one - just learning to drive. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong - if anything, just lower your expectations for the time being.

Before you start being seductive, you must learn to be social. Talk to strangers, lots of them. Try to leave everyone you meet a little happier than they were.

I recommend following some sort of structured program like the one below to lose approach anxiety and improve your conversational skills. Don't use it as gospel (some of it is weird - focus on social skills first, not seduction skills) but it's a rough guideline.
http://www.goodlookingloser.com/anxiety/program

It's funny, as most people that know me tell me that I have good social sklls.

Like, i've had a number of friends ask me to be their 'best man' at their weddings and stuff, as they say I am good with people and am funny.

But I guess with girls, since they are always so defensive and guarded with me when I smile at them and say 'hi!' in nights out, it throws me off, and then my mind is racing about what i'm supposed to say, how to recover it, how to 'game' them etc.

I'll check out that link, too.
08-22-2016 03:50 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
^

Then you might be a step ahead... The GLL program might be good for you. If you already have social skills, it's much easier to transition. It might be due to your vibe or seeking approval when you approach - hard to guess without seeing you in person.

Why do you think girls act defensive when you approach? Are you too serious?
How would your friends describe your vibe, fashion, etc?
How old are you / how old do you look? How about the girls you approach?
Are you intense? For instance, are you jacked, black, and dress like a thug or fighter? (race and fashion affect how you are perceived) what is your "type" of fashion?
Do you joke around because you enjoy it, or in order to get good reactions from people?

Whatever it is...keep at it and keep the write-ups coming.

Edit: just saw that you claim hundreds of rejections and that you target younger girls.

Are you shooting too high for the top talent? Maybe slightly lower quality would give you more opportunities to practice. (I don't mean chase grenades.)

Keep in mind that there is selection bias in what other guys post about. Past a certain point, nobody wants to throw up a report that reads "went out, talked to 5 girls, got no action" days in a row, while everyone wants to talk about their successes and signs of progress. If you're reading a lot of blogs, it's easy to develop the attitude of "I must suck. I've talked to three girls this week and unlike those guys online, I haven't fucked even one in the ass in a public toilet". See this for a dose of reality by the numbers:
https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-52486...pid1176754

Data Sheet Maps | On Musical Chicks | Rep Point Changes | Au Pairs on a Boat
Captainstabbin: "girls get more attractive with your dick in their mouth. It's science."
Spaniard88: "The "believe anything" crew contributes: "She's probably a good girl, maybe she lost her virginity to someone with AIDS and only had sex once before you met her...give her a chance.""
(This post was last modified: 08-22-2016 05:35 PM by polar.)
08-22-2016 05:34 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #7
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-22-2016 05:34 PM)polar Wrote:  Why do you think girls act defensive when you approach? Are you too serious?

I certainly try to smile and try not to come off as serious.
The 'defensive' thing is just based on how I read the girls after I say 'hi'. The 'look' on their face is nearly always one of 'why is this stranger talking to me?!!''

I'm not sure if it's just a UK thing! We are famously not very open with being approached by strangers, at least compared to some cultures.



How would your friends describe your vibe, fashion, etc?
I guess smart casual on nights out, which is when i usually approach? I don't really have a 'look' as such. I don't dress super smart. Or I don't dress like a rocker or a rapper etc. On nights out, I'll just wear slim fitting jeans (not 'skinny' jeans) and smart boots and maybe a fitted Tshirt or a shirt, or sometimes and nice crisp plain white T-shirt, under a short sleeve shirt.

How old are you / how old do you look? How about the girls you approach?
I am basically 30. I have been told that I look younger. On guessmyage, my average guess was like 25. However, my hair is dissappearing, so i'm not sure if i'll be able to claim that for much longer! Having said that, I often see people whoare like 21 who are going bald! I dunno!

The girls are typically maybe 18-25? I don't so much have a thing about age, but everytime I see a girl and think ''she is hot!'', she tends to be very young.


Are you intense? For instance, are you jacked, black, and dress like a thug or fighter? (race and fashion affect how you are perceived) what is your "type" of fashion?
Do you joke around because you enjoy it, or in order to get good reactions from people?

I'm white, I work out 4 days per week but i'm not jacked. I have some definition and am in good shape, but I naturally have small bones. Like, my wrists are tiny.
I don't really have a 'type' of fashion, as i said. Like, i'm not a 'goth' or an 'emo' or a thug etc.

I joke around beacuse I love comedy. I like laughing. Making myself laugh, and making others laugh. I admit that I sometimes have to snap myself out of being serious when talking with girls, though.


Whatever it is...keep at it and keep the write-ups coming.

Edit: just saw that you claim hundreds of rejections and that you target younger girls.

Are you shooting too high for the top talent? Maybe slightly lower quality would give you more opportunities to practice. (I don't mean chase grenades.)

I admit that I DO tend to go for very hot girls most of the time. In the past I woudn't have bothered, but since reading about 'game' and the 'looks don't matter' stuff, i thought , 'why not!!.

Having said that, like I mentioned in one of the field reports above, the girl who kind of rejected me/moved away from me, was pretty damn rough, really! I was just using her to practice on as she wasn't that attractive, and then she still blew me out Smile


Keep in mind that there is selection bias in what other guys post about. Past a certain point, nobody wants to throw up a report that reads "went out, talked to 5 girls, got no action" days in a row, while everyone wants to talk about their successes and signs of progress. If you're reading a lot of blogs, it's easy to develop the attitude of "I must suck. I've talked to three girls this week and unlike those guys online, I haven't fucked even one in the ass in a public toilet". See this for a dose of reality by the numbers:
https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-52486...pid1176754


I feel slightly better (or possibly worse?!!) about the success of some people, as I recently spoke to 3 or 4 of teh apprently extremely successful guys from this and another pickup forum, and they've all hinted that they are well above average in the looks department. I feel less of a failure now, although at teh same time, maybe less hopeful!! (in lieu of plastic surgery )0


my comments should be in red.

cheers
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2016 03:59 AM by subterfuge.)
08-23-2016 03:54 AM
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Post: #8
RE: subterfuge journal
You might not be clear with your intent, pacing them, and not establishing a time constraint.

Intent: is she clear that you are hitting on her, or at least not trying to sell her some shit or whisk her away to a dark alley?

Pacing: are you jumping straight in to talking to her, or are you prefacing that to get her attention and snap out of whatever you were thinking about:
"excuse me, (catch her eye, wave her down) hey, girl in the white dress...(she realizes someone wants her attention, snaps out of daydreaming, becomes alert)
... phew, (smile), I just ran over here, give me a second...(make it clear you're not a nuisance)
...ok, do you have a quick second, I need to tell you something, I know this is a little odd but I'll say it anyway...(stop her, get her full attention, make her intrigued)
<strong eye contact, deliver your opener>

This is the more direct "London" school of day game. Condense this a bit, but the point is you shouldn't just drop in on her and go straight to the opener.

Time constraint: More with night game than day, but basically early on bring up the fact that you're on the way to (X) like meeting your friend and "I only have a few minutes" if she's on guard - the goal being so she isn't like "when will this creeper leave, how will I get rid of him"

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Captainstabbin: "girls get more attractive with your dick in their mouth. It's science."
Spaniard88: "The "believe anything" crew contributes: "She's probably a good girl, maybe she lost her virginity to someone with AIDS and only had sex once before you met her...give her a chance.""
08-23-2016 12:14 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
(08-23-2016 12:14 PM)polar Wrote:  You might not be clear with your intent, pacing them, and not establishing a time constraint.

Intent: is she clear that you are hitting on her, or at least not trying to sell her some shit or whisk her away to a dark alley?

Pacing: are you jumping straight in to talking to her, or are you prefacing that to get her attention and snap out of whatever you were thinking about:
"excuse me, (catch her eye, wave her down) hey, girl in the white dress...(she realizes someone wants her attention, snaps out of daydreaming, becomes alert)
... phew, (smile), I just ran over here, give me a second...(make it clear you're not a nuisance)
...ok, do you have a quick second, I need to tell you something, I know this is a little odd but I'll say it anyway...(stop her, get her full attention, make her intrigued)
<strong eye contact, deliver your opener>

This is the more direct "London" school of day game. Condense this a bit, but the point is you shouldn't just drop in on her and go straight to the opener.

Time constraint: More with night game than day, but basically early on bring up the fact that you're on the way to (X) like meeting your friend and "I only have a few minutes" if she's on guard - the goal being so she isn't like "when will this creeper leave, how will I get rid of him"

Well don't forget that I only ever approach at night in bars and stuff, so there's no danger of them thinking i'm trying to sell them anything.

As for intent, it obviously depends on the kind of approach I use.

When I banged the girl I mention in my OP, I told her I thought she was hot almost straight away. (after using some silly canned approach that she liked)
After that success, i started using that open all the time thinking i'd found the holy grail.


I then had lots of rejections when I carried on using that similar direct tactic, and then I read that it's best to use 'invisible game' in bars so that the girl doesn't feel as though she's being picked up. Apparently, especially if a girl is with her friends and you come on strong from the beginning. I am told that this will generally result in the girl rejecting you harsh so that she can look good in front of her friends.

So there seems to be some conflict between making ones intentions known

I was thinking some more about opener rejections earlier, and I think that a fair few of the rejections are my fault, in terms of not being proactive enough in the early stages of an approach.

Whenever 'openers' are discussed, every says 'just say hi!!....it's not hard''

I then found myself approaching girls, saying 'hi', they then say 'hi' back (with an upward inflection in their voice, as if to imply ''do I know you?!..what's going on?'')
and then i'd get thrown off and kind of start panicking as to what to say next!!

I think this stems from the fact that in general, I speak with people who like me and know me, and when I see them, I say 'hi!'' and from then on, they say 'hi' back and then immediately start asking ME questions and stuff. I tihnk i've almost forgot that when approaching girls in bars, It's ALL on me!....certainly at teh beginning.

I notice that one of the rsd guys is quick to react when this happens to them, and then they always reply with something like ''don't be alarmed! I'm not crazy'' or something like that. Maybe I should start doing that

I'm going out on Saturday too a friends stag doo so hoping to make some approaches.

I think i'm maybe the sort of person who needs to rely on 'canned' stuff, as my brain tends to get analysis paralysis when i'm trying to think in the moment.

I was watching an hour of infield with on of the rsd guys earlier, and I noticed that he tended to reuse lots of the same openers, initial questions in his interactions, so maybe it's not just for amateurs? Although, most video pickup is on foreign girls which seems to make the whole process a bit easier, funnily enough

I need to burn a few 'openers' (after the hi) into my brain. Maybe almost a 'system'.

Girl holding phone in her hand?...open with hi and then x
Girl on her own? open with hi and then y
Girl with a few friends? Open with hi and then z
Girl has blonde hair? open with....you get the idea.

It's kind of robotic, but maybe it'll help me. I won't lose much from trying I guess.
08-23-2016 03:34 PM
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Post: #10
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-23-2016 03:34 PM)subterfuge Wrote:  I notice that one of the rsd guys is quick to react when this happens to them,

I was watching an hour of infield with on of the rsd guys earlier
Here's one issue...too much reading and not enough action leads to confusion and analysis paralysis.

You need to figure out what works for you personally. Then you can reuse it...but it will be yours and therefore authentic.

Have one canned opener. Focus on the three second rule. Stop reading pick-up material until you do another 100 approaches. Better, try to limit reading only for when you encounter a sticking point.

Always drive the interaction forward.

You don't get field experience from reading other guys' journals.

Godspeed.

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Captainstabbin: "girls get more attractive with your dick in their mouth. It's science."
Spaniard88: "The "believe anything" crew contributes: "She's probably a good girl, maybe she lost her virginity to someone with AIDS and only had sex once before you met her...give her a chance.""
08-23-2016 05:23 PM
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Post: #11
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-22-2016 06:23 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I'm now old and approaching 30, and have only slept with very small number of girls my whole life. I kind of feel like a virgin, lol.

Mate, you still have a long way to go. You're still a spring chicken. Your best years for pulling is about to start. Plenty of time to get rid of that virgin feeling.

Keep at it. And keep reading and learning to expand your knowledge. And off course lift.
08-25-2016 06:07 AM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Incoming text dump:

I think your biggest issue right now is your mindset is dragging you down straight into the gutter. Where you say you read a lot about looks not mattering, I'm sure you felt confident in this mantra right after you banged that hottie. Hell, I bet you brushed off the first few rejections after this like a badass and thought about the next fish to fry. What you've got to look at is how you're treating yourself after each girl you meet. You said you felt like shit after the practice girl, but what were you telling yourself in your head? Did you beat yourself up over it and get angry or feel sad? Did you curse the girl out in your mind? If you're doing these kinds of things in your mind, then how you value yourself is going to plummet.

I see you're big on RSD. I personally like Tyler the most since he's an average looking guy and is pretty short too. What let's him soldier through and meet several beautiful girls is his frame of mind. If you've ever watched him talk in a video, you can feel the charisma in his voice. It's almost like he's talking directly to you as if you were in the room with him. He used to be worse than where you are at now. His days of inexperience involved borderline stalking girls and giving valentine's day gifts to classmates he barely knew. It took him meeting many people, men and women alike, to adopt his mindset and affirm his values. Right now, you're doing the same thing and not a day too soon since you are still young. There are people in their 40s on here who are just getting into game.

From the get go, I can see you're being way too hard yourself. I mean, holy shit dude. You've talked to several girls (extremely hot ones too), gotten turned down, and you kept going because you chose to. There are guys out there who can barely look a girl in the eyes, and here you are hitting on them hot pieces of ass. That talks balls most people don't got. After things don't go well with the girls, be honest with yourself but not harsh. You can say how things didn't go amazingly, but tell yourself good job and support yourself in your head. If you had a friend who got turned down and was feeling bad, what would you say to him to comfort him? Take that and use it on yourself instead.

This mindset also carries into the practice girl. When you thought of her as a practice girl in your mind, it probably affected how you interacted with her in your voice and your behavior. Instead of thinking of her as practice, you can change how you frame it. See it as you being a curious and wondering what kind of person she is. If you want to know what someone is like, what questions would you ask them?

Also, I think you have more social anxiety than you realize. You say you can see a friend, say "hi", and then talk with them. This is good because it means you have a conversational skill set already there. Now take that same approach of saying "hi" and start conversations with people you don't know. Guys, gals, old ladies, elderly men, or anyone you see. Full conversations too so you can see how far you can push an interaction. Chances are, you'll notice you'll run into the same problems you do with hot girls. You already know how to talk to people you know, but talking to people you've never met before is another social skill that needs to be honed. It's also down to natural chemistry. Some people will be dead ends no matter what you say or they say and there will just be dead air between you two.

I run into similar problems as you, but I get it even with my close friends. I won't know what to say, I'll be afraid saying some dumb shit, or points where I completely freeze up in a conversation and anxiety passes over me in waves. Sometimes saying hi to people walking past me is enough to give me a nervous heart bump.

You can relax on witty observations too. You're probably trying to conjure some funny thing to get the person you're talking to to laugh or like you immediately. You can start with something simple and build on it from there. You've got a natural sense of humor, so let it come to you naturally instead of forcing it out. Is the place crowded? "it sure is crowded in here." See someone having a good time? tap her on the shoulder and point to the guy and say,"That guy really knows how to have fun." I'm no social mastermind here, and I'm sure these sound a little dorky, but they're some easy things you can comment on if you see them.

Keep in mind Night game and Day game are very different beasts. You can get away with more shit in the nighttime than you ever could during the day. Once you get over your first hurdle, you can push the boundaries of your comfortzone even more. Saying a ballsy thing to one girl will make her throw her drink in your face, and another will giggle at it.

tl;dr I'd recommend getting Gorilla Mindset. It's got actionable advice and examples to help you shift your mindset around.

"Their emotional waves will swamp you if you're just quietly-floating, so you need to learn to surf." - AnonymousBosch

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08-25-2016 11:01 PM
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RE: subterfuge journal
Saturday, 2 nights ago.

First approach in the outside area of a nice little bar by the seaside.
There's 3 girls on the table next to us. I'm with my friends, and I don't want to start talking to them in front of my friends.
My friends disappear to the bar at the same time so now it's just me and the girls.
We are sitting fairly close to a scary looking rollercoaster type thing.

I look at one of them, smile and say
(me)''Hey! I've got a ticket for that ride up there. Fancy it!?'' (I was lieing here. I didn't have one)
(her) ''Nahhhh.''
(me) ''Why not? You're not scared are ya?!!''
(her) ''lol, no. We've got these bands (showed me her wrist) so we can go on any rides , anyway
(me) Ooooooh. You're just showing off now!
(her) haha
(me) So what are you up too tonight? Going anywhere fun?
(her) No. nothing planned.
(at this point, the really hot one who was closest to me turned her back to me, the other one was kind of looking away, and the one I was mainly talking too was giving me the vibe that she didn't want to talk)
It went quiet, and so I started telling them why I was out and stuff,
''Yeah, so me and my friends are out for a mates stag doo. We're going to Xbar later on''
but at this point it got a bit weird, because they all basically ignored me, lol.
i'm not sure if I done something wrong or if I was just unlucky in terms of the girls not being that friendly.

It got a bit weird at this point, because they all kind of turned there back on me and clearly didn't want me talking to them.
I think I tried to break the atmosphere and said something like ''why do yuo hate me!?'' but whilst smiling/laughing at the same time, but they carried on looking away.
I just gave up trying to talk to them, and left a few minutes after. Awkward.

Next one.
I'm in a different bar. There's 2 hot girls sitting on a table next to where I am standing.
I can't exactly remember how i opened unfortunately.
I THINK it was something like
''hey guys! What's up?! Just you 2 out tonight?''
I asked their names and noticed they had an accent and then asked where they were from,
They said they were from Switzerland.
I then asked them what they were doing here and stuff.
I then found myself struggling as to what to say.
I could tell that they weren't overly interested in me, though. They didn't ask me any questions, either.
One of my friends came over to us and stood next to me, and I said to him
''Hey, meet my new friends. This is claire and this is kelly'' (these weren't their names. I was just amusing myself )
Girls: ''Haha! they're not our names!!''
I told them I was just messing around. My friend didn't contribute anything, and I felt like I couldn't think of anything to say, and then the girls were like ''Anyway, Nice meeting you'', and they went inside. I didn't see them again

next one:


This was maybe the most successful one in terms of I felt as thought there was some attraction.
Again, unfortuntely I can't remember how i opened Sad
I possibly just commented on something she was wearing.
They were standing near me as they were queueing up to get to the bar.
My brother was being served and he kind of gave me an in, because he looked at me and asked me what I wanted, and then I think he asked the girls what they wanted!
They were kind of polite and I think they were reticent to accept his offer, and then I was like
''Get in there quick, girls, before he changes his mind!''
They asked him for vodka lemonades.
Then we got out drinks and I just basically lead them onto the dance floor. My brother dancing with one, and me dancing with the other one.
It was kind of loud so hard to talk, but I remember just being a bit flirty. Lots of kino. I told her she was cute. We got kind of close and I feel as though I could have possibly gone for the kiss, but I don't think enough attraction had been built, and my instincts told me that it wasn't a good idea.
I wish I could remember how it fizzled out so that maybe I could learn from it, but after a little while, they both disappeared. I don't think my brother was really flirting with the other one, so maybe that didn't help? Maybe she dragged my one away, but I can't honestly remember!

Still, no really painful rejections right after the opener which was nice. I've had quite a few 'go away' type reactions after saying 'hi' in recent weeks, so it was a mild confidence boost, even if I didn't 'get anywhere' as usual, lol. On tihnking back though, i'm annoyed about the first interaction.

I can't work out of I done something to creep them out?!! They were just so kind of rude, but at the same time they weren't bitches. Lke they didn't say anything cruel to me, but they made me feel like I must have looked like a weirdo for talking to them by their reaction. As if they'd never had a stranger speak to them before! Always makes me question my looks.


Oh, and I made a last minute direct approach on a hot promotions girl who was giving out flyers. Doesn't really count, though. She was working and it's basically her job to flirt with people! Super hot, though :
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2016 05:32 AM by subterfuge.)
08-29-2016 05:26 AM
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Post: #14
RE: subterfuge journal
thanks, @King Of Monkeys


Regarding the teenage girl I banged, I'm finding myself desperately trying to work out how i done it. I'm feeling a bit low at the moment. I keep playing the interaction no. 1 (in FR above)over in my head. Looking back on it, it was super awkward! But they just all started ignoring me! I'm kind of angry with them, really! I wonder how I should have reacted. I guess maybe asking if they are shy or something? I'm not sure whether I came across like I was trying to pick them up which scared them off and put their guard up? Maybe it was just that the opening line was very bad? (might have come across as very overly-familiar instead of being silly and just making conversation)

Oh, and I;ll take a look at that book
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2016 05:33 PM by subterfuge.)
08-29-2016 05:32 PM
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Post: #15
RE: subterfuge journal
Great user name.

I'll just give you feedback on this first approach.

(08-22-2016 06:23 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  approach 1:
girl by herself standing near to the table where me and 2 friends were drinking. She was nothing special, but I wanted to get my feet wet/practice
Looked at her, but couldn't think of anything 'clever' to open with based on oservations. nothing 'stood out'.
So, I just went with

''Hi! What's up?? I'm sub'' (and smiled)
(she looked a bit grumpy)
her: ''hi''
me: ''are you here alone?''
her: ''my friends are just coming''
me: ''what's your name?''
her: ''claire''
At this point, 2 of her friends turned up, and she turned her back to me and kind of positioned herself so that her friends were kind of making a barrier between us. Obviously not interested in me, so I just kind of played it off, and smile and said
me: ''Ok, you take it easy, Claire!''
--------------------------------------------

- "Hi, My Name Is" - is a horrible opener

Why is it a horrible opener? It's what grown ups do when in public settings right? Work, Church, School, Professional functions?

So how come a man just can't say hello and give his name?
What's so wrong with it?

Because girls have been made savage by years of uncool/unsocially calibrated guys coming up to them, introducing themselves, giving their names AND expecting the same in return.

And if she is polite, he continues to talk to her, ignoring her obvious social signs of discomfort or disinterest.

It gets to the point where she's not only immune to "hello", but she goes into automatic mode whenever a guy approaches that way.

And what did you tell us that you noticed?

"(she looked a bit grumpy)"

So clearly you don't have asperger's or some pseudo-medical reason....

Yet instead of dealing with her emotional state - you plowed through it like it wasn't plainly obvious that she didn't want to talk to you.

The next approach you make
- find an opener online, find one you like, MEMORIZE IT.
Practice delivering it.
Understand what the opener is attempting to accomplish.
Is it an interesting little story?
Is it a juicy relationship question?
Is it a funny joke?

AND

What is the expected reaction?

- get her/the group's attention

- deliver your opener (project your voice, be loud, take up some room, deliver it confidently, like you were talking to your best friends at a loud pub)

- Don't ask for their names

- Don't give your name. (never give you name, until she offers hers first)

- Then observe. Did you get the reaction you were expecting?

If you're getting the reaction you're supposed to, then you're on your way.

Right now
- you don't have a plan
- you don't have the improvisational skills to go without a canned opener
- you're not mindful of social context/social reality
- you're not paying attention to their reactions.

Fix those things.

Count yourself lucky. If you've had hundreds of rejections, clearly you don't have Approach Anxiety.

That's the 2nd biggest hurdle that guys have. (the first being that they don't believe game works)

So you've passed the 1st 2 hurdles. (of many)
________________________________________________________

That opener is horrible.

But if I was going to use "Hi, My Name Is"..

Archie - "Hi, My name is"
Chick - I'm Claire

Archie - "Hi, My name is"
Claire - *confused"

Archie - "Hi, my name is.....SLIM SHADY"
Claire - *laughs, or looks amused*

Archie - "I used to totally love* that song...everytime I hear it..."

WIA

*I've always hated that song, do not get it twisted.

http://www.westindianarchie.com/
(This post was last modified: 08-29-2016 06:54 PM by WestIndianArchie.)
08-29-2016 06:51 PM
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King of Monkeys Offline
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Post: #16
RE: subterfuge journal
Quote:First approach in the outside area of a nice little bar by the seaside. There's 3 girls on the table next to us. I'm with my friends, and I don't want to start talking to them in front of my friend

This stuck out to me. Why don't you want your friends to see you talk to these girls? They probably could have seen what you did, and you could ask for their input on whatever happened.

Quote:I look at one of them, smile and say
(me)''Hey! I've got a ticket for that ride up there. Fancy it!?'' (I was lieing here. I didn't have one)
(her) ''Nahhhh.''
(me) ''Why not? You're not scared are ya?!!''
(her) ''lol, no. We've got these bands (showed me her wrist) so we can go on any rides , anyway
(me) Ooooooh. You're just showing off now!
(her) haha
(me) So what are you up too tonight? Going anywhere fun?
(her) No. nothing planned.

If you look again, her reaction was lukewarm at the beginning. I think she was being polite at first and wanted to see what your deal was. The most I can tell is she was cutting the conversation off before she turned her back on you. Notice how she showed off her wristband, then when you asked if she had anything planned she said no. However, she's clearly there to ride on the rides and have a good time with her friends.

Did you feel you were overdoing it? Laughing harder than you needed to or putting fake enthusiasm in your voice?

Quote:(at this point, the really hot one who was closest to me turned her back to me, the other one was kind of looking away, and the one I was mainly talking too was giving me the vibe that she didn't want to talk)
It went quiet, and so I started telling them why I was out and stuff,
''Yeah, so me and my friends are out for a mates stag doo. We're going to Xbar later on''
but at this point it got a bit weird, because they all basically ignored me, lol.
i'm not sure if I done something wrong or if I was just unlucky in terms of the girls not being that friendly

It's sounding like you were putting too much pressure on yourself to get a good outcome. Once the friends turned, the conversation was pretty much dead in the water.

Quote:It got a bit weird at this point, because they all kind of turned there back on me and clearly didn't want me talking to them.
I think I tried to break the atmosphere and said something like ''why do yuo hate me!?'' but whilst smiling/laughing at the same time, but they carried on looking away.
I just gave up trying to talk to them, and left a few minutes after. Awkward.

I'm sure you said this jokingly, but when I read how much this conversation bugged you I think you were genuinely asking them why they went cold on you. The situation bombed, but you shouldn't take it too personally. You tell me. Why do you feel so angry about it?

"Their emotional waves will swamp you if you're just quietly-floating, so you need to learn to surf." - AnonymousBosch

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08-29-2016 11:56 PM
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Post: #17
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-29-2016 11:56 PM)King of Monkeys Wrote:  
Quote:First approach in the outside area of a nice little bar by the seaside. There's 3 girls on the table next to us. I'm with my friends, and I don't want to start talking to them in front of my friend

This stuck out to me. Why don't you want your friends to see you talk to these girls? They probably could have seen what you did, and you could ask for their input on whatever happened.

Hi.
I think I mentioned ti somewhere before (but maybe I didn't), but basically, my friends don't believe in 'game' and believe that it's ALL about looks. They don't believe themselves to be 'handsome' and so they basically never ever approach.

When I go and talk to a hot girl, and she turns me away, my friends make me feel worse and tend to tell me that I should 'aim lower' and that it's no surprise that she wasn't interested in me since she's way out of my league etc. The rejection kind of validates their theories in their eyes

Also the increased pressure of bombing and not having anything to say etc.

In hindsight, if they'd have seen me get ignored by them girls, they'd have given me a fair bit of 'ribbing' for it, and it would probably have runied my night, so i'm kind of glad in my decision to wait!

Thanks for your thoughts on that interaction.
I guess I should have just stopped talking to them when they were kind of 'offish' from the beginning, but the quote ''Keep ploughing on until you are told to go away or they leave'' was ringing in my head from some game literature i'd read that day, and so I guess I didn't want to just 'leave it'.

Even though they had the wrist bands, this was still in a bar, and it ws early evening, so I tihnk they'd likely finished doing rides for the day, so I don't THINK I was interrupting their day of rides and stuff...?....

Why do I feel so angry about it, you ask?
Not sure. I'm just angry at myself for a start. It made me feel like there was something wrong with me. Either my looks, or that I unknowingly come across as someone with some sort of mental illness! To just ignore someone like that, especially when you are in a group of people is very damn rude to me! I'm more angry now than I was at the time. At the time I was just a bit embarrassed and dejected but not angry.
08-30-2016 03:01 AM
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Post: #18
RE: subterfuge journal
(08-29-2016 06:51 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  And what did you tell us that you noticed?

"(she looked a bit grumpy)"

So clearly you don't have asperger's or some pseudo-medical reason....



Right now
- you don't have a plan
- you don't have the improvisational skills to go without a canned opener
- you're not mindful of social context/social reality
- you're not paying attention to their reactions.

Fix those things.

Count yourself lucky. If you've had hundreds of rejections, clearly you don't have Approach Anxiety.

Even though I know you're not a Dr., hearing that you don't think I have aspergers or something actually feels good! That's teh exact sort of thing I've been wondering about for the last few days. I tihnk maybe i'm so 'in my head' and trying to remember things to say, questions to ask etc, that it's doing more harm than good.

''You don't have a plan''
What sort of plan do i need, specifically?

''- you don't have the improvisational skills to go without a canned opener''
true

''you're not mindful of social context''
How do I fix this?

''- you're not paying attention to their reactions''
Do you mean like how i noticed, yet ignored the 'grumpy' reaction of the girl in one of the reports? I just didn't know how to react. Should I have brought up the fact that she looked grumpy in that sort of situation??
08-30-2016 03:11 AM
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Post: #19
RE: subterfuge journal
I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse here, but I'll humor this a little longer

1) most of the game/pua books are out there online, use Google. At your level, every book is fine. Except for the Tao of the bad ass. That will damage you.

Just read the first few chapters of a bunch of books, and use that brain of yours to synthesize what each is saying.

Most books agree on the structure and what you should expect from cold approaching women. Where they differ is in philosophy and implementation.

2) There are plenty of YouTube videos about all aspects of game. Focus on the ones about approaching and how women think, feel, and react. Again, a simple search plus a quick read or view

3) observe and interact with women that you aren't trying to sleep with. Watch a video on a girl dressing or doing her makeup. Listen to why she is choosing what she's choosing, her thought process.

(08-30-2016 03:11 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Do you mean like how i noticed, yet ignored the 'grumpy' reaction of the girl in one of the reports? I just didn't know how to react. Should I have brought up the fact that she looked grumpy in that sort of situation??

Next time it happens you should see how she reacts when you ask her why she's mad. It's not clear to me that you know what would happen.

But she was probably grumpy from your bad approach. She was fine until you made a bad approach. Your approach changed her mood to negative. You did that. Own it. "I am at fault."

I could spoon feed you the answers, but hundreds of rejections suggest to me that you're not actually trying to get better. Your rejections are easier for you than the hard work of actually getting better.

Your homework is to get online and find out how to recover from a bad approach. There are lots of ideas. Read some. Think them through.

WIA

http://www.westindianarchie.com/
08-30-2016 08:26 AM
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RE: subterfuge journal
edit
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2016 08:37 AM by subterfuge.)
08-30-2016 08:36 AM
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Post: #21
RE: subterfuge journal
I've already mentioned the young girl I had a one night stand with.

When I approached her, I pretended to recognise her from a 'silly' event and got her laughing straight away.
I very quickly moved this convo into us being on a blind date. So, in this interaction, she was laughing within seconds, and she already had the idea of me and her being on a date.

That interaction is like night vs day compared to some of the other interactions I've had.

I'm wondering how relevant the 'fun' canned opener was to my success?

When I open 'normally' (''Hi! I saw you from over there bla bla bla'') I find it hard to get the conversation into a 'fun' chat.
I'm also reminding myself ''stay away from interview mode! Don't ask her what she does etc'' and then I find myself having nothing to say!

There is another field report from a few weeks back that I haven't mentioned yet. It has a very bad ending, but the interaction as a whloe was fairly good.

Here it is:

So me and my 5 friends are scanning the floor and we spot the 2 hot girls dancing together. The other guys were too scared too approach, so I went over there.
I said ''Hey!'' smiled, and tried like the hand of God thing.
She gave me this horrible look as if to say 'not in your wildest dreams' and then put her hand up to my face and turned around and moved away.
ouch. Had a small audience for that rejection, too!
At this point I though ''Ahhh....and so it continues''
And then, a few seconds later, and even prettier girl was dancing in a yellow dress with a friend of hers.
She was dancing near me.

At this point, one of my friend was also on the dance floor, and he started to pretend to try to 'reel her in' like a fish with an imaginary fishing rod. She laughed and got close to him, but not close enough for him to grab her
I could tell at that point that she was 'fun/nice'.
So then I just walked over to her and said

''that's cheating! He caught you. You took the bait!''
She laughed and said
''Nope. I wriggled free''

Teh she looked at her phone and I said
''It it important? Are you checking your stock prices?'
'
And from then on I pretended to recognise her from tinder and we were laughing and she was touching me lots, and then she just started talking about her life

Before i knew it, and hour had gone, and we'd be talking and flirting. I used lots and lots of kino. She used some too.
Also lots of getting close with strong eye contact.
I got her away from her friend for a second and we made out.

It carried on going well, but at about 1am, something 'changed'. She just seemed 'off' and was looking at her phone lots and looked bored.
Now, from that point, it turned into a DISASTER....Like something out of a comedy movie.
Her friend had been giving me a hard time most of the night. She didn't seem to like me at all. SHE was the one giving me lots of shit tests and stuff in fact.....not the one i liked!
And at the point where my girl was already looking a bit bored and slightly colder towards me, the friend really amped up her quizzing me, in front of the girl.

I was a bit drunk now and starting to get annoyed with her. We had like a mini argument. Then the target said that we were boring her and that she wanted to go home. Then I spilled my drink all over the target girl!! I didn't mean too, but the beer was just resting on the edge of the bar where she was sitting.
She looked pissed off and said ''thanks for that!!''.

At this point the whole interaction had taken a COMPLETE 180, and i didn't feel like even attampting to recover it.
I said ''Cool....so, on that note, i'm gonna go and get back to my friends! later''
And the friend said
''Yeah, i think you should'' and shot me a moody look
The target was still looking at her phone.


-----------------------

Now, what I want to tak away from this story is that, maybe again, the thing that lead to having a better interaction, was the silly funny way I oepened her, and the fact that I was able to put the idea of us being together in her head. Much like when I got the F-close with the other girl!
08-31-2016 08:14 AM
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Post: #22
RE: subterfuge journal
Anyone read 60 years of challenge? I bought it yesterday after the considering the idea that I am finding rejection easier than learning as was put to me.
There appears to be yet more conflicting advice on various things. Feeling confused. Just who is one supposed to listen too?

For example, he says that opening with an introduction is encouraged and that you're wasting your time talking to them before you know each others name. Goes against what is said above bu WIA.

Another thing is that in lots of my approaches, I'll say 'hi' and then the girl will kind of reluctantly say 'hi' back
now, what I was doing was waiting for her to say something else which lead to some awkward silences.
I'd finally 'realised' that I need to carry the burden of conversation and basically open her again straight after or quickly jump into a question or something.
But now I read this book, and he's saying to embrace the silence after the opener. Basically what I was doing before! He says it is to 'put the pressure on her' and so as yob don't look like you're 'qualifying yourself'

There's at least 2 more contradictions i've noticed in this book that goes against magic bullets and another book i've read. I'm half way through it
(This post was last modified: 09-01-2016 03:36 PM by subterfuge.)
09-01-2016 03:35 PM
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Post: #23
RE: subterfuge journal
60 is great, but he (and Gunwitch) have different styles of game than the style/mystery and Tyler schools. This was a big dichotomy back in the day, and I don't think people outside of real pua boards know how to dissect all of this.

Lemme explain the name thing

I see a chick at Chipotle (a restaurant here in the States, selling burritos with rice), and start to talk about whether she has the cilantro gene. Cilantro, a green herb, tastes like soap to people who don't have that gene.

I'll just start talking. No introduction, just content. It's even better if she has a friend there.

If she talks back, and we start going back and forth, if she likes me, she'll ask for my name. It's as simple as that. That's a typical social dynamic. Girls will invest in a guy that they like, that offers them some fun and social value.

Technically speaking, in proper society, a man with good manners, you're supposed to exchange names first, but like I said above the formality of the name exchange puts girls on autopilot.

I don't want to trigger her natural script ( her autopilot) unless it helps me.

So I offer value, she gets intrigued, and then seeks a little rapport with me. I'm not going to bang based on cilantro rice. I start a conversation and get some investment, that pushes the interaction forward.

If she doesn't like me enough to get my name, I know that she's just passing time, she's not investing.

I don't know what style of game you like, but *I* want the girl to like me first and start investing in this thing that we're building together. It starts with her showing interest and trying to build rapport with me.

And when she does that, I know that she's interested in going further.

What about more formal girls, chicks that "insist" on rules?

You need to get her to invest even more than a regular chick.

So how does 60 get away with it? How can he exchange names and not make the girl roll her eyes?

If I recall correctly, 60's style is more sexually charged from the very beginning. Being more "man to woman" he's actually being the sexual bad boy from the beginning. That hint of sexuality bowls over the social decorum.

Maybe 60 is not full on direct approach, "hey baby come home with me", but it often forces the girl to make a quick decision.

WIA

http://www.westindianarchie.com/
09-01-2016 04:19 PM
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subterfuge Offline
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Post: #24
RE: subterfuge journal
thanks.
Yeah, I'm only half way through it, but I must say it's the most different from any other book i've read so far in terms of application.
In fact, so far, he has given the impression that there is almost nothing to game! Almost like it's not a thing!
He talks about not needing to say anything special, not needing to make them laugh, don't worry about teasing, don't be 'interesting', don't worry about routines etc etc. Kind of everything that is constantly going through my brain after I approach a girl! I'm always wondering ''what was I supposed to say when she said that...what should I say now......what 'stage' am I at with her, and based on that, what sort of things should I be doing/saying.
Si it's Liberating in a way but also confusing at the same time as it almost puts me back at 'square 1' before I even discovered game.

His main thing so far (like I say, i've not finished it yet) is all about physical escelation very fast and early. Quite a lot of stuff about eye contact. Not worrying about being creepy! (this is a strange one for me as that is one of my main concerns - coming across creepy). Lots of touching and trying a few times, not worrying about rejection, to get her to mutually touch you back. (I'd assume this would look like someone is not socially savvy)
Not reacting to her when she is talking (be stone faced) He seems to almost WANT to come across as creepy! He says that creepy guys get laid the most! Not sure I can agree with that! From reading so far, I feel as though someone who is unable to talk could do well!

He even recommends pretending to be shy which again, is everything that i'm trying to avoid!

I guess at the end of the day, everyone disagrees about what one should do! I'm finding myself disagreeing with a lot of the stuff i'm reading in his book so far, but then I tihnk ''who am I to have an opinion!!? I don't get many girls!'' and then I rembember that other authors (who i'm assuming are good with girls) must disagree too! Maybe best to find an author who you instinctively agree with and take his word as gospel and nobody elses?

I'll finish the book either way! Porbably by tomorrow
(This post was last modified: 09-01-2016 04:42 PM by subterfuge.)
09-01-2016 04:37 PM
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WestIndianArchie Offline
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Post: #25
RE: subterfuge journal
That's a good question.

When I got into this, there weren't too many established ideas, so guys tried everything and then reported back. The one I hated the most was active disinterest. Tried it, couldn't get it to work..(it's slightly different than initially ignoring the target)

But trial and error is how canned routines became a thing.

Pick one you like, and do program A exactly as laid out. Keep what works, and then try program B. When you're finished with B, THEN combine A and B.

WIA

http://www.westindianarchie.com/
09-01-2016 05:03 PM
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