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Weightlifting: Starting Strength
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speeddemon Offline
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Post: #201
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-24-2013 12:16 AM)Hades Wrote:  Rippetoe is big on GOMAD which I think can be a bad idea on as little volume as is prescribed by SS, on three sets of five reps of squats three times per week you're probably going to end up with diabetes.

You can do the SS program but substitute his squatting rep scheme for one set of 20 or 30 reps (take plenty of breaths between reps) and aim for the same progressive overload. Do two or three workouts and then try to bump the weight up ten pounds or whatever.
Once you have shitloads of hypertrophy built (which should happen in a hurry, make sure to buy new pants beforehand) you can go for like ten to twenty sets of heavy singles, doubles, and triples to build up better strength and leave the gym fresh.

Many sets of heavy singles, doubles, and triples are what serious lifters do for strength gains, they don't mess around with sets of 5 because it will reduce the overall volume that they can lift in a session and increase the time it will take to recover. Jamie Lewis did exactly what Rippetoe recommended for four months and actually lost twenty pounds on his bench press.

So in short, don't bother too much with his research, recall that he's testing his supposedly superior rep scheme on mediocre athletes who do nothing but sets of 5 reps. He's never managed to take a guy from loser to champion powerlifter and with good reason.

(08-24-2013 10:10 AM)TheKantian Wrote:  Starting Strength is ok. I don't like the whole cult behind it or Rippetoe though.

What do you all think is better than Starting Strength for a newbie?
08-24-2013 12:23 PM
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Hades Offline
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Post: #202
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-24-2013 12:23 PM)speeddemon Wrote:  What do you all think is better than Starting Strength for a newbie?

20 or 30 rep squats, drink your calories, fear no overtraining. You want to destroy your CNS if you want to grow.
Once you have a base you can figure out where to go from there.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2013 01:24 PM by Hades.)
08-24-2013 01:22 PM
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Travesty Offline
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Post: #203
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-10-2011 03:15 PM)basilransom Wrote:  Your legs may get huge: Despite not being that strong, my legs and ass have gotten so big (25-26" & 41") that it's hard to find attractive pants that fit. I have a closet full of nice suits that no longer fit. My torso got bigger, but did not keep up with my legs. My arms trailed behind the rest of my torso, at 13.5" at 6'1" 180, partly due to a thin, lanky frame.

I've started to incorporate a bit of isolation exercises, and substituted exercises when I started plateauing on those in SS. I switched from bench pressing to weighted dips, and then added in tricep pushdowns. These, in concert with a 10 lb increase in bodyweight, have added ~.5-.75" to my arms, to 14.25 over the course of a couple months. I'm now ~193, 6'1." Weighted pullups and chins, technically not in the SS program, added thickness to my upper back that deadlifts did not.

.......

I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying know what you're in for. If you're only in it for the looks, you don't need to squat so much.

Seconded, I was a big gym rat in college, did squats and deadlifts and wish I wouldn't have.

If you care about looks, see what you start with. I already have a built back and legs.

I too finally switched over to weighted dips, added mass and continually adding mass to my shoulders and arms.

Weighted Dips are sometimes quoted as the Squat of the upper body.

My personal recommendation for guys with naturally built legs, but a lanky taller build:

Weighted Dips + Reverse Curls (forearms) + Butterfly Stroke swimming (don't use your legs until you get so tired you have to)

This puts mass even on an upper body hard-gainer like me.

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08-25-2013 12:25 AM
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WanderingSoul Offline
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Post: #204
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
You wish you wouldn't have done squats and deadlifts?

Why would anyone wish that?
08-25-2013 04:55 AM
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AntiTrace Offline
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Post: #205
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
Just started SS. It was hard to drop the weights to such a low level after the gains ive seen in the last 6 months, but I'm hoping it will pay off in the end.

I'm gonna start with:

3 x 5 squats @ 135
3 x 5 bench @ 135
1 x 5 dead lift @ 155

That's about 100lbs off my max for the squat, 90lbs for the bench, and 150 for the deadlift.

That sound about right for the starting weights?

God'll prolly have me on some real strict shit
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08-25-2013 06:38 AM
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WanderingSoul Offline
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Post: #206
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
No, you don't need to drop the weight. Test your 5rm and start 10% below that is fine. Where did you read to drop the weight so much?
08-25-2013 08:19 AM
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AntiTrace Offline
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Post: #207
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
I read to start with just the bar and do 5 reps, increase by 10lbs or so until bar speed slows or form suffers.

It's lighter than what I could do for 5rm but my form for the deadlift still feels kinda off. I think it will be good to go lighter and really focus on form for a couple weeks. I really don't want to be trying to deadlift 400 or squat 300 with improper form.

God'll prolly have me on some real strict shit
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08-25-2013 09:12 AM
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WanderingSoul Offline
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Post: #208
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 09:12 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  I read to start with just the bar and do 5 reps, increase by 10lbs or so until bar speed slows or form suffers.

It's lighter than what I could do for 5rm but my form for the deadlift still feels kinda off. I think it will be good to go lighter and really focus on form for a couple weeks. I really don't want to be trying to deadlift 400 or squat 300 with improper form.

Ah, ok.

That is what StrongLifts recommends for a complete beginner. You can do that if you want, or start where you feel comfortable. Starting Strength doesn't recommend that, I don't think. I haven't read the latest edition, but his earlier ones didn't.

I've recently dropped my deadlift down to the low 300s due to bad form was well. I highly recommend you recordyour form once a week or so and to keep working on it. I got sloppy on my deadlifts and didn't realize my back was rounding until I recorded myself.
08-25-2013 11:00 AM
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dk902 Offline
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Post: #209
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
I had the same problem with my deadlift form a a while back.

I thought I was deadlifting like a boss when in fact I was rounding my back too much. I dropped the weight and focused on my form.

A real good tip I learned was when you're on your way down stick your butt out before the descent. This keeps your torso line and like magic, the rest of the body follows and your chest stays up and the back arched.

This was as opposed to focusing keeping my chest up and back arched.
(This post was last modified: 08-25-2013 11:41 AM by dk902.)
08-25-2013 11:38 AM
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Post: #210
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
This is pretty much the exact problem I was having, and how I fixed it. Video helped me a lot.



08-25-2013 12:18 PM
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Vaun Offline
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Post: #211
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 06:38 AM)AntiTrace Wrote:  Just started SS. It was hard to drop the weights to such a low level after the gains ive seen in the last 6 months, but I'm hoping it will pay off in the end.

I'm gonna start with:

3 x 5 squats @ 135
3 x 5 bench @ 135
1 x 5 dead lift @ 155

That's about 100lbs off my max for the squat, 90lbs for the bench, and 150 for the deadlift.

That sound about right for the starting weights?

You are starting off way too high with the weight. At those starting weights your maxes should be 3x, not 2x of your starting weight. At your level I would probably start with the bar, and definitely not any high than 95lbs. You will reach your maxes in 3-5 weeks if you start that high.
08-25-2013 04:17 PM
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Vaun Offline
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Post: #212
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-24-2013 12:23 PM)speeddemon Wrote:  What do you all think is better than Starting Strength for a newbie?

Starting Strength is a newbie program. Most others are for more advanced lifters.
08-25-2013 04:19 PM
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RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-24-2013 01:22 PM)Hades Wrote:  20 or 30 rep squats, drink your calories, fear no overtraining. You want to destroy your CNS if you want to grow.
Once you have a base you can figure out where to go from there.

If you are doing Starting Strength correctly, you will not be able to add 30 rep squat sets. If you are able to, you are not going heavy enough in either SS or your 30 rep set.
08-25-2013 04:21 PM
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AntiTrace Offline
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Post: #214
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
What exactly is the point of starting with just the bar?

If its only to get form down for people that have never done squats/deadlifts/etc before there is no need for me to go down all the way to the bar.

And what's the difference in reaching maxes in 3-4 weeks as opposed to 6-8 weeks if your starting with just the bar.

Starting that low just seems like a few wasted weeks of working out unless your a complete absolute beginner.

God'll prolly have me on some real strict shit
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08-25-2013 05:26 PM
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RexImperator Offline
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Post: #215
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
Rio, I thought during the DL you were supposed to look forward, not down...is that wrong?

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08-25-2013 08:32 PM
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Ensam Offline
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Post: #216
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 08:32 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  Rio, I thought during the DL you were supposed to look forward, not down...is that wrong?

I was taught to pack the neck and look about 10-15ft out. Basically you want a neutral spine, so don't crane your neck but don't tilt it downwards either. If you listen to the comments in the video the trainer says the guy should lift his head a bit on the lift where he's fixed his lower back.
08-25-2013 09:24 PM
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Vaun Offline
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Post: #217
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 05:26 PM)AntiTrace Wrote:  What exactly is the point of starting with just the bar?

If its only to get form down for people that have never done squats/deadlifts/etc before there is no need for me to go down all the way to the bar.

And what's the difference in reaching maxes in 3-4 weeks as opposed to 6-8 weeks if your starting with just the bar.

Starting that low just seems like a few wasted weeks of working out unless your a complete absolute beginner.

My recommendation was based on your max numbers. If you are increasing the weight 5-10lbs per workout you will hit your squat max quickly, then you will stall. You should stall out after several weeks, not the first three. The point is to not stall, and have incremental increases in weight every workout, while building form and proper execution of the lifts. 95% of the people that start the program have never really learned how to squat, press or deadlift correctly, at least according to the instruction in starting strength. Taking the 2-3 weeks of a low weight will give you the time to dial in your form. Most everyone I see in the gym squat wrong(partial squatting, half squatting, 1/4 squatting, rounded back deadlifting, pressing out in front, etc) so I think this is a crucial phase. Making 30lb jumps, 10lb per workout, will get you to a taxing working weight fairly quickly.
(This post was last modified: 08-25-2013 09:53 PM by Vaun.)
08-25-2013 09:41 PM
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Hades Offline
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Post: #218
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 04:21 PM)puckman Wrote:  
(08-24-2013 01:22 PM)Hades Wrote:  20 or 30 rep squats, drink your calories, fear no overtraining. You want to destroy your CNS if you want to grow.
Once you have a base you can figure out where to go from there.

If you are doing Starting Strength correctly, you will not be able to add 30 rep squat sets. If you are able to, you are not going heavy enough in either SS or your 30 rep set.

Sure you can. What you have here is a crap dichotomy. Rippetoe's own case studies have an athlete who did SS in conjunction with two or three Olympic weight training sessions per week and football two-a-days. If you can't add another session or two of lifting in a program that only does three non-consecutive 30 to 45 minute sessions per week, and that's with liberal rest periods and GOMAD, then you have to eat and sleep more.
(This post was last modified: 08-25-2013 11:50 PM by Hades.)
08-25-2013 10:50 PM
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WanderingSoul Offline
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Post: #219
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 08:32 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  Rio, I thought during the DL you were supposed to look forward, not down...is that wrong?

You want your spine to be inline throughout the lift. So you won't look directly at your toes, but you wont look up or straight forward either.


After a killer squat workout I always feel like beating the shit out of somebody, but in a good way. Anyone else get that feeling?

Or like cavemaning an 18 year old girl in a side alley while walking to the SkyTrain or something.

Love that feeling.
08-26-2013 04:17 AM
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Vaun Offline
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Post: #220
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-25-2013 10:50 PM)Hades Wrote:  
(08-25-2013 04:21 PM)puckman Wrote:  
(08-24-2013 01:22 PM)Hades Wrote:  20 or 30 rep squats, drink your calories, fear no overtraining. You want to destroy your CNS if you want to grow.
Once you have a base you can figure out where to go from there.

If you are doing Starting Strength correctly, you will not be able to add 30 rep squat sets. If you are able to, you are not going heavy enough in either SS or your 30 rep set.

Sure you can. What you have here is a crap dichotomy. Rippetoe's own case studies have an athlete who did SS in conjunction with two or three Olympic weight training sessions per week and football two-a-days. If you can't add another session or two of lifting in a program that only does three non-consecutive 30 to 45 minute sessions per week, and that's with liberal rest periods and GOMAD, then you have to eat and sleep more.

No not at all, at least not whats in the book or in any of his writings, or whats taught at his seminars. Link your source. The program is not designed to include extras. The growth period of the program is not meant to be done during summer camp or fb season. If you are able to do all this extra work, you simply are not lifting heavy enough. If your sessions are that fast, you are not lifting heavy enough. A typical 3x5r set should take you anywhere between 10-20min depending on how heavy you go. Thats on top of a warmup that is at least 10-15 min. As you reach your 5 rep max, a 20 min 3x5 set is typical, as will your warmup and all sets increase.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2013 08:44 AM by Vaun.)
08-26-2013 08:38 AM
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Post: #221
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-24-2013 12:23 PM)speeddemon Wrote:  What do you all think is better than Starting Strength for a newbie?
Upper/Lower split 5 days a week, 3:2 with the 2 being what grows the easiest. Obviously include bench, deadlift, and squat, push press or military press, bent over rows. I generally operate in the 20-25 total set range. Also by week I don't mean specifically a week as in sunday to saturday.

For instance I do 3 upper and 2 lower. On the lower days I do squats, either front or back, along with deadlifts, either clean grip or snatch grip, and I do unilateral leg work, e.g. lunges, and might throw in the power movements of the olympic lifts or might do the real thing.

basilransom Wrote:Your legs may get huge: Despite not being that strong, my legs and ass have gotten so big (25-26" & 41") that it's hard to find attractive pants that fit. I have a closet full of nice suits that no longer fit. My torso got bigger, but did not keep up with my legs. My arms trailed behind the rest of my torso, at 13.5" at 6'1" 180, partly due to a thin, lanky frame.
Holy shit. That's really disproportional. That'll probably make you look too bottom heavy.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2013 05:29 PM by TheKantian.)
08-26-2013 05:27 PM
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RexImperator Offline
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Post: #222
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-26-2013 08:38 AM)puckman Wrote:  A typical 3x5r set should take you anywhere between 10-20min depending on how heavy you go. Thats on top of a warmup that is at least 10-15 min. As you reach your 5 rep max, a 20 min 3x5 set is typical, as will your warmup and all sets increase.

Yeah, I was surprised when I read on the SS forum that Mark recommends waiting like 7 minutes between sets. The trainer at my gym thought this was really way too long when I asked him about it. I was doing 3 minutes but I'm trying to make it longer.
08-26-2013 05:42 PM
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Vaun Offline
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Post: #223
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-26-2013 05:42 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  
(08-26-2013 08:38 AM)puckman Wrote:  A typical 3x5r set should take you anywhere between 10-20min depending on how heavy you go. Thats on top of a warmup that is at least 10-15 min. As you reach your 5 rep max, a 20 min 3x5 set is typical, as will your warmup and all sets increase.

Yeah, I was surprised when I read on the SS forum that Mark recommends waiting like 7 minutes between sets. The trainer at my gym thought this was really way too long when I asked him about it. I was doing 3 minutes but I'm trying to make it longer.

that up to 7 minutes. lets use your numbers. If your max squat is 235lbs, when you start around 95lbs, which I think is a good starting point for you, you will be able to rest 1-1.5 minutes between sets. In 3 weeks, after you increase your weight 5-10lbs per workout, lets say when you get up to 155lbs, you will want to rest longer, maybe 3 minutes. When you get closer to your squat max, in 5-6 weeks, the sets of 5 are going to be really tough, and you will want to rest longer, up to 7 minutes. When it gets heavy for me I usually rest around 5 minutes. Tonight I was about 50% of my max and did a 3x5 set of 225. I barely rested and squatted fast. This is power lifting. Its not crossfit, or 'cross training', its whole point is for you to generate maximum output in a 5 rep set. And the 5 rep set is most ideal for strength growth. If you have to rest for that, thats ok. Its not a cardio routine. This is how weightlifters train. The heaviest lifters are generally doing triple and double rep sets, because they are lifting at near max every workout. And sitting around resting between sets is unfortunately a by product of max force production. As you get closer to your max with 3x5 sets, you will be resting too. If you follow this I can see you squatting closer to 300 in 12 weeks, barring any injury, following the plan, proper form in the book and eating/sleeping well.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2013 09:26 PM by Vaun.)
08-26-2013 09:14 PM
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Post: #224
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
(08-26-2013 05:42 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  
(08-26-2013 08:38 AM)puckman Wrote:  A typical 3x5r set should take you anywhere between 10-20min depending on how heavy you go. Thats on top of a warmup that is at least 10-15 min. As you reach your 5 rep max, a 20 min 3x5 set is typical, as will your warmup and all sets increase.

Yeah, I was surprised when I read on the SS forum that Mark recommends waiting like 7 minutes between sets. The trainer at my gym thought this was really way too long when I asked him about it. I was doing 3 minutes but I'm trying to make it longer.

If you only need three minutes to rest between squat sets then you aren't lifting heavy enough. After a month or so you will definitely need those five minutes.
08-26-2013 11:59 PM
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Post: #225
RE: Weightlifting: Starting Strength
Ectomorph: Guess I'll add my 2 cents. I've been pretty steady in the gym for about 1.5 years now. About 3 years ago, I stepped into the gym on May 15th at 6'4" 198 lbs apx. 14-15% body fat - with an ectomorph frame (skinny type obviously) - and left the gym on Halloween that year at 254 lbs. apx 17-18% body fat. This permanently changed the homeostasis of my body.. never dropping below 240 lbs since, and currently at about 250 lbs with most I ever weighed around 261 lbs.

I learned while doing this at age 35-36, that eating was easily 70% of the challenge. Its always a battle between eating and sleeping right, the lifting is a mere formality once you're in a routing and its part of the daily grind. I would say I consumed between 5000 and 7500 calories daily. 4-6 meals, tons of shakes, and tons of milk. I learned a lot since then and have observed a lot in the gym. People really need to account for their body type. If you think its hard to loose 56 lbs. as an endomorph or mesomorph, seriously try being an ectomorph and putting on that much weight that quick. My ass hurt from shitting 5-7 times a day. lol.

The problem with this speed of weight gain was you definitely increase your blood pressure overall, and cholesterol. While I can't say any 1 program or lifting strategy really stuck out as I changed them every 1.5-3.5 months, most lifting plans I've read apply primarily to mesomorphs who can easily gain or cut weight, changing their look in 3 months or less easily.

All the while, I had to lift "around" old joint injuries or developing injuries or genetics that would not allow me to entirely follow the typical "mesomorph-Type" routines you so commonly read about on bodybuilding.com. The injuries include, and still do, both knees posterior meniscul tears (split like sand dollars, right is bone on bone.. ouch!), left rotator cuff instability, and slight right hip issues, and slight elbow tears or something I'm still unsure of. After putting on THAT much weight I reduced my workout due to other life obligations and only got in the gym on average 1-2 times a week for about 1.2 years following.

I'm currently benching about 300+ lbs. 1RM, can't squat per surgeon's recommendation, so leg press down to 80-90 degrees 1080 lbs. peak set, and probably put up about 1200 lbs. 1RM there, dead lift 350+ lbs. 1RM, back is much bigger and stronger, arms are actually my weakness now. I never "subscribed" to the "big arm dude" workout. While I wish I had bigger arms, I'm still as strong or stronger than most in my gym on the compound exercises and core major muscle groups. My goal was 265 lbs. at 14% or less body fat... I have not achieved it yet. Still around 250 lbs. and 16-17% body fat.

I'm a lot more concerned with my look rather than weight now, yet that weight goal seems achievable some day. As you age I've noticed, the ability to put on (muscle) weight and keep in on becomes easier. I try to lift entire upper body 2x a week and entire lower body 2x a week. Recover was slower due to my age at first, but gets faster the more regular you are.

A lot of bigger ol school cats who are cut and strong as hell put up medium/lighter weight, but just rep out till failure.. with no real exact method behind it except to get to failure. I've kept the lift weight pretty high but every few workouts I drop the weight and decrease time in between sets. I also do a static contraction workout every 3-4 weeks to try to push through barriers. The reason my arms are my weakest now is because on upper body days, if I only get in 2 hours I won't have time for them, so unfortunately I'll skip 'em since I'm pounding on my chest, shoulders, and back so hard.. they get some use there anyways. Every now and then I'll do an arm and abs or arm and shoulders day when I'm hit, to catch them up.

I do abs 3 times a week, never super high reps, usually weighted in some manner in early sets. I've also learned - and get this - the best way to keep from getting belly fat is actually eat more carbs.. oatmeal, brown rice, or any other fibrous slow burning carb. I also make sure to eat white rice or white bread once a week so my body does not "forget" how to metabolize simple carbs. I also drink less milk and more water now. Like a LOT of water, after each meal.. 24 OZ or so.. really helps with digestion. Also, broccoli, for whatever reason seems to really help me with digestion too.

The biggest difficulty with and ectomorph build is almost all your fat goes straight to your belly, like any other guy my age, but it is much more noticeable with an ectomorph because it has no other way to go than outward, rather than left to right (love handles). So while I've got a ton of muscle and still around 16-17% bodyfat, I have a bit of a belly bulge that makes me look fatter than I really am until I take my shirt off and you can see its mostly muscle.
08-27-2013 12:48 AM
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