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Holocaust fact finding thread
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brick tamland Offline
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Post: #126
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
The Holohaux. That's my opinion and others have succinctly stated what its purpose was.

Some years ago I looked at this topic briefly and it didn't take long to find some glaring flaws and interesting facts. I'll mention a couple.
Firstly it's been noted that reports of many Jews in Europe and Russia being in danger or killed or dying at one time first appeared in the late 1800s. In connection with these false claims, the number 6 million was sometimes used. This false claim was also trotted out during WW1. This pattern of propaganda is documented in a book called the first holocaust written by Don Heddesheimer, which I have yet to read. There should be other books which also cover the same topic, which may be called the 'six million myth'.

Secondly I found out that surprisingly the first ever archaelogical excavation of the Treblinka site for the purpose of a forensic investigation only took place a few years ago. Here, supposedly up to 900 000 were killed, mostly Polish jews. The so-called investigation led by Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls was apparently a farce and was presented in a documentary called "Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine". It turns out that it was not, at long last, a comprehensive study that would put the many doubts to rest.
Why did it take decades for such an exercise to be initiated. Wouldn't the Jewish community have a keen interest in this taking place long ago, to study a part of their history in minute detail and honour the dead, led by world class forensic scientists, especially as the state of Israel has been in existence for many years now.
01-02-2017 04:03 AM
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Post: #127
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
Here is an interview of a former SS-Scharführer (sergeant), Franz Suchomel, with a hidden camera and microphone.

Suchomel had already been tried and served time in prison for war crimes in a German prosecution in the 1960s when this was recorded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Suchomel He was prosecuted for assisting at Treblinka. He describes the gas chambers and the routine of selection.





From the same documentary, Claude Lanzmann's Shoah, a Jewish barber at the same camp, Treblinka, telling his story of cutting women's hair right before the gas chamber. The control of the guy breaks at the end. This segment was the most powerful for me. It shows just what we are talking about, no joke or excuse for sophistry.





Of course, the deniers will deny, that's what they gotta do. This is my last post on this thread, I am taking Phoenix's pledge to abstain from political discussions.
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 04:08 AM by Sp5.)
01-02-2017 04:05 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #128
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I for one am not particularly interested in explanations that range to "it doesn't make much sense to do it that way".

I can understand the principle. It's logical.

But anyone suggesting that it's incredulous for plan-x to have been enacted because of problem y, z and w has obviously never worked for the government.

Re: Diesel fumes being used to kill. I knew a man who had to trap and kill feral cats for a living. He was only given equipment to drown them. A friend told him it was far more humane to gas the cats by dropping a tarp over the cages and piping in exhaust fumes.
After nearly cooking the cats over a period of half an hour he drowned them all and complained to his friend, who promptly remembered to confirm that he was using a petrol engine rather than a diesel one.

Anecdotal, but there it is.
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 06:36 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
01-02-2017 06:36 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #129
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  I'm going to steal a page from the denialist playbook and take the quote out of order to set the frame, but this is a good one.

Gorgiass reveals his bias from the get-go. The term "denialist" is a dismissive slur. It would be like calling those who promote the official narrative "credulists" or "true believers". As someone who has taken time to peruse the literature, Gorgiass is no doubt aware that the proper term is "revisionist", because no one is "denying" that wide scale persecution and death took place during the Holocaust. The main contention is simply the actual number of victims and the methods of execution. Thus we are attempting to revise the record, not deny it. Indeed, from the revisionist perspective, people like Gorgiass are the true denialists, since they continue to deny there is any problem with the official narrative despite it being full of holes and having had its own numbers revised down repeatedly and substantially over the years.

(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  Your article deals with a completely different gas methodology, so different as to be nearly irrelevant; clearly however, the very text you quoted indicates that suffocation alone isn't an ideal option, as the Jews survived several hours in the chamber (albeit a non-hermetically sealed one) before the engine started.

However, I'm glad you brought that site to my attention, as I happen to know my way around an engine. Again, several glaring falsehoods jumped out, and on further reading the volume of lies in that single piece is truly staggering - a prime example of the sort of misleading denialist literature I already mentioned. Your article takes 17 pages attempting to explain why diesel exhaust couldn't be used for execution (and therefore the Holocaust couldn't have happened), I will explain in just a few paragraphs why it can.

Ideal burn (stochiometric) ratio for gas and diesel engines is nearly identical, approx 14.5:1, there is no diesel engine which runs at 200:1. A diesel engine is not “nothing more than an unusual kind of blower” it is the original internal combustion engine. Every single phrase like this in that article is designed with an end goal in mind - to set a false frame and deliberately mislead the readership into falling for their lies.

A running engine consumes several hundred cubic feet per minute of ambient air and expels several times this volume in heated exhaust. According to your quote the room was 1883 cubic feet. If the other translation is correct, the room was 7000 sqft. Either way, it's pretty obvious that in virtually no time at all, every bit of ambient air in this room will be displaced by exhaust. At these volumes, as soon as exhaust is vented into this room every air leak becomes an exhaust point in itself and becomes irrelevant, thus the lack of need for hermetic sealing.

But what is diesel exhaust?
[Image: v2n4a3i5.jpg]

Nearly all of your article focuses on CO, this is an attempt at misdirection (more on that later). But what does it say about CO2? (While reading below, note the weasel words and deliberately misleading verbiage - “not really any more” poisonous, “harmless” stimulant, “gradually” increases).

IHR.com= Wrote:Carbon dioxide is not really any more poisonous than ordinary water.
IHR.com= Wrote:Carbon dioxide can be beneficial and therapeutic. 2-5 It is commonly used in clinical medicine as a harmless stimulant for respiration, for which purpose it is supplied under pressure in cylinders
IHR.com= Wrote:Levels of 3% carbon dioxide are quite tolerable for exposures lasting several days. For example, in the 1950s the U.S. Navy experimented with gas mixtures containing 3% carbon dioxide and 15% oxygen
IHR.com= Wrote:For Diesel engines, the carbon dioxide level at or near idle is only about 2% and gradually increases to about 12% at full load as shown in Figure 6. A carbon dioxide level of 12% may cause cardiac irregularity and may, therefore, be dangerous for people with weak hearts.

What do Wikipedia, scientists, and health professionals say about CO2?
Quote:Concentrations of 7% to 10% (70,000 to 100,000 ppm) may cause suffocation, even in the presence of sufficient oxygen, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.
Quote:The OSHA's maximum safe level is 3% (30,000 ppm); lethal concentration (death in 30 minutes) is 10% (100,000 ppm).

Truly an incredible example of deception, even by denialist standards. But wait - note that all these examples I've given so far have dealt with diesels running above stochiometric. Although IHR tells you that diesels can run up to ratios of 200:1, they don't tell you that they can run well under stochiometric ratios as well, and when they do the lethality of the exhaust gas increases exponentially, including levels of CO they spent 17 pages trying to debunk.

This is what the denialist literature is – shills with no qualms about lying to people about things which could kill them (Oh, I read on IHR.com that I don't need to open the garage door while I preheat my car if it's a diesel!) as long as they successfully manipulate their reader's opinions, objective truth be damned.

The above is a bunch of complete nonsense intended to come across as a scientific rebuttal. Are you an expert on chemistry and/or the biological interactions of respirated gas inside the human body? Oh, no. But you "know your way around an engine." And this somehow makes you qualified to handwave away a detailed 17 page analysis in a few paragraphs? What Gorgiass cannot refute is that we have eyewitness testimony telling us that hundreds of victims were alive in a small gas chamber for over three hours (which is impossible, they would have asphyxiated long before). Why does this matter? Because this testimony forms the basis of the entire gas chamber mythology. And its patently impossible on its surface. Full stop. So is witness testimony invalid in this case when it clearly suggests something impossible happened? If so, why is witness testimony suddenly 100% reliable in other cases? Or better still: why is witness testimony entirely contradictory much of the time? (i.e. wearing gas masks or no gas masks). There is simply no consistency in regards to the eyewitness accounts of the alleged gas chambers, which is a huge red flag.

(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  You're attempting to create a straw man, and using rhetorical tools. Note the incredulous phrasing and adjectives to sway readers - “easily” put on a mask, “highly” poisonous (not with a mask), “rough” physical labor (as opposed to gentle?). No one has said it was easy or without risk, but it's certainly no incredible feat to put on a gas mask and drag bodies up some stairs. Neither has anyone said it was without incident – they were disposable slave labor so worker's comp claims weren't a concern. I have worn a gas mask before. It's cumbersome but not much more so than a good P95 respirator. I wore a respirator regularly for several years for work, and I performed plenty of physical labor while wearing it. Not a problem at all, and I had a choice. Regardless, on further reading I also learned that the chambers were power ventilated (and in fact there are existing letters from the manufacturer of Zyklon B detailing ventilation requirements), gas masks were only worn if there was a backup of those awaiting execution.

First, let's look at what we're talking about here. This is a WW2-era gas mask. So supposedly the Sonderkommando and SS men would be wearing these gas masks while they emptied the chamber of bodies. But not just a few bodies. Hundreds of bodies. Which they would be physically lifting and carrying around and upstairs to be placed in crematoria. So this is incredibly physical and sweaty labor. This is the equivalent of performing a weightlifting routine while wearing a gas mask. The mask would be getting fogged up constantly. Breathing would be extremely difficult. And all the while, the knowledge that if the airtight seal on your mask opens at any time, you would be exposed to highly toxic cyanide gas. What kind of idiot would design an execution system like this that put his own men at such risk?

It just doesn't strike me as plausible.


(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  But this is another interesting link you have here which we should explore. The misdirection is more subtle than the last one but still present throughout, using weasel words and selective phrasing to paint any contradiction between thousands of accounts as something sinister. For example, the image in question, drawn by a survivor with no explanation given as to artistic license -

[Image: lectureFichiergw.do?ID_FICHIER=1454167446863]

You're accusing me of using rhetoric and weasel words at the same time you attempt to dismiss the gross conflicts present in eyewitness testimony as artistic license. Let us be very clear: this picture was drawn and presented as evidence during a trial as being an accurate portrayal of the gas chambers. You don't get to dismiss its irregularities as "artistic license" when they conflict with basic logic or other testimony. Again we see the bias on display: you accuse your opponents of intellectual dishonesty while flagrantly engaging in it yourself.


(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  I learned about this guy earlier tonight, and spent some time reading about him and others in this book - Deniers of the Holocaust: Who the are, What they do, Why they do it Have you read it? I'm guessing not, but if you're only interested in the truth, as you said, then it would make an eye-opening read.

Wow, a little light bedtime reading, huh? Does that illustrious tome also contain the revisionists' home addresses and telephone numbers so that you can better harass them? Why would anyone read (or publish for that matter) a book on the individuals presenting an argument rather than the argument itself? I believe that's known as "shooting the messenger", and it's unfortunately par for the course when it comes to Holocaust revision. Revisionists face legal persecution across the world, with some sitting in prison cells as we speak simply for dissenting with the official Holocaust narrative. Those that escape official prosecution can expect to be harassed endlessly by groups of deranged Jews and their shabbos goy allies for daring to disagree with them. This is the type of behavior one expects from a mafia group protecting its racket or a religious order crushing heresy. This is not the proper behavior of historians and researchers debating the historical record. It's indicative of the extreme levels of paranoia and anxiety on the side of those who promote the official narrative: they are so terrified of honest researchers actually investigating their claims that they make doing so illegal everywhere they can, and where they cannot they employ harassment and character assassination as much as possible.


(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  I ask you the same question. How many of your links do I need to factually debunk before you entertain any other possibilities? Crushed testicles and torture was a lie. Your major source for your post above was proven to be lying through their teeth. Your second source relies primarily on a man who was paid $30,000 to gather evidence to exonerate a Holocaust denier who used methods so unscientific my elementary science teacher would be rolling over in her grave. There is overwhelming evidence, it comes down to whether a person want to accept it or let their personal biases lead them astray. Critical thinking doesn't mean only attempting to see the other side of an issue when presented with a mainstream view, it also means considering the mainstream view when presented with an alternate.

For me? My belief requirements are somewhat simpler - I require sources which don't spend 17 straight pages lying to me.

If you could debunk one that would be a good start. Which you've failed to do so far. You accuse me of setting up strawmen but you entire post has been nothing but a collection of assorted fallacies of argumentation (i.e. claiming false expertise, handwaving arguments, shooting the messenger, dismissing grossly conflicting evidence as "artistic license", etc...). You have proven nothing. Absolutely nothing. The fact that you have tried so hard to do so while accomplishing so little is indicative of the strong bias you hold, which I pointed out from the beginning. You are not interested in the truth, you are simply interested in proving the "denialists" (whom you clearly despise so much that you read entire books that defame them) wrong.

(01-02-2017 01:59 AM)Gorgiass Wrote:  The "fake" image is not the famous one, the "fake" is the one in NYTM. It was retouched for publication to get rid of the mostly nude man front and center. People were prudes in 1945 - http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...amous.html

It doesn't matter which picture in this instance is the original, the point is that the Allies and the Soviets are proven to have been doctoring photos. And we know for a fact that they doctored photos to prove Nazi atrocities (i.e. the famous photo of the soldier with a rifle about to shoot the woman at point blank range - a total fake). There are millions of people walking around today who regard doctored atrocity photos as "proof" that six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers. Again, your dishonesty is shocking: these doctored photos are presented as evidence of atrocities and war crimes, and yet you attempt to dismiss the editing as being for reasons of "indecency". Utterly preposterous.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
01-02-2017 08:51 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #130
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-02-2017 04:05 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Here is an interview of a former SS-Scharführer (sergeant), Franz Suchomel, with a hidden camera and microphone.

Suchomel had already been tried and served time in prison for war crimes in a German prosecution in the 1960s when this was recorded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Suchomel He was prosecuted for assisting at Treblinka. He describes the gas chambers and the routine of selection.





From the same documentary, Claude Lanzmann's Shoah, a Jewish barber at the same camp, Treblinka, telling his story of cutting women's hair right before the gas chamber. The control of the guy breaks at the end. This segment was the most powerful for me. It shows just what we are talking about, no joke or excuse for sophistry.





Of course, the deniers will deny, that's what they gotta do. This is my last post on this thread, I am taking Phoenix's pledge to abstain from political discussions.

Here's a woman who describes, as a three year old, having a large nail driven through her head and being hanged by her neck from a chain made of knives. Those devious Nazis! They were so evil they managed to turn fatal injuries into non-fatal tortures and then use them on babies. Or you know, it didn't actually happen.





Here's another one. Can you imagine the miracle of walking into your shower and water coming out of the showerhead? Ok, so that's not exactly a miracle. But if you've been subject to weeks' worth of hysteria about non-existent gas chambers being disguised as shower rooms, I guess you might be relieved when they actually were showers.






Of course, there are some "Holocaust survivors" (more accurately, former concentration camp inmates) who do have clear memories of their time in the camps. Their testimony includes things like inmate orchestras, soccer games, drinking beer, swimming pools and movie nights. Ghastly stuff, right?




"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
01-02-2017 09:07 AM
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weambulance Offline
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Post: #131
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
The claims about the numbers of bodies supposedly burned in the crematoria didn't feel right just based on my gut scientific sense, so I started looking into the math. I was going to do a post detailing the problems I found, but then I found this rather long and exhaustive investigation into that very question:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

I honestly just quickly read through it and there's no way I'm spending a week checking his 200+ sources, but nothing jumped out at me as obviously wrong in his presentation. He goes into sufficient detail to even consider how many times the firebrick would've had to have been replaced in the ovens.

Here's the author:

[Image: IHGh2OF.jpg]

Hmm. Seems sketchy... that's a scary label.

...Of course, if as a geologist I went out and did that kind of analysis showing the problems with the claims of the global warming crowd, I would be tarred with the same brush. Denier. And indeed, quite a few scientists have been.

The label doesn't make them wrong.
01-02-2017 09:59 AM
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Hotwheels Offline
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Post: #132
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
Doubting a dirty running, 1930's technology, 38.8 liter diesel's exhaust has the ability to kill a room full of people just weakens your argument.

Find a different hill to defend as you look dumb here.

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01-02-2017 12:03 PM
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Post: #133
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
I have to admit that this thread has changed my perspective in some ways.

I used to think "Holocaust denier" meant raving anti-Semitic lunatic who believes that there's some pact among Jews to make up stories about having been sent to concentration camps. In reality, the deniers' position does not require the bulk of concentration camp survivors to be lying in any way, and I don't sense any malice toward Jews in this thread. I say this being partially Jewish myself.

This common misrepresentation of Holocaust denial (as denial that anything happened, rather than denial that the purpose of the camps was extermination), coupled with its illegality throughout most of Europe, is enough to cast some doubt in my eyes. Let's say you know a guy named Joe. You can't go around telling everyone Joe is a crazy idiot with ridiculous beliefs, and then cover Joe's mouth and knock him unconscious when he tries to speak up for himself. If he's so insane, why not let him open his mouth and prove you right?

I'm not saying I totally buy into what Scorpion and others are saying. I'd have to do much more research to form such an opinion. But my mind is more open than it used to be.
01-02-2017 12:37 PM
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Post: #134
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
Quote:Why did the Germans spend all this money and manpower on this "final solution" ? For a country that was pretty much bankrupt from 1918 until 1933 from expensive world war I reparations and insane hyperinflation , and then fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts all across Europe from 1939 until 1945, it seems crazy to waste all these very expensive resources and endless years just to arrest and kill all members of particular religious group. Simple anti seminitism does not explain this real paradox.

That's easy...they appropriated the Jewish businesses, seized Jewish assets, and leveraged Jewish slave labor. High ROI.
01-02-2017 01:02 PM
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RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 12:37 PM)Delta Wrote:  I have to admit that this thread has changed my perspective in some ways.

I used to think "Holocaust denier" meant raving anti-Semitic lunatic who believes that there's some pact among Jews to make up stories about having been sent to concentration camps. In reality, the deniers' position does not require the bulk of concentration camp survivors to be lying in any way, and I don't sense any malice toward Jews in this thread. I say this being partially Jewish myself.

This is important to emphasize. There really is no Holocaust conspiracy. There is no powerful cabal of devious Jews who are sitting around laughing about foisting the gas chamber lie on the clueless goyim. What happened was a sort of perfect storm that allowed the story to take off and develop a life of its own over the years. To sum it up:

During the war, there was obvious widespread persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany. Really awful things happened to hundreds of thousands of Jews. Many separated from their families, their possessions stolen, thrown into forced labor camps. This was an awful event for the Jews. And in that environment, paranoia runs wild. Because no one knows what's going to happen - and so it's natural to assume the worst. And what's obviously the worst? "They're going to kill us all!"

As the Jews were being relocated to the East they went through transit camps where the trains stopped and the Jews got off to have their hair cut and take showers and have their clothes replaced and/or deloused with Zyklon B. This was done to halt the spread of Typhus and other diseases and prevent it from taking root in the main prison camps. This is, I believe, where the gas chamber myth first began: you have trainloads of frightened, paranoid Jews being herded like cattle into showers and seeing boxes of insecticide poison laying around. They assume the worst. The rumors spread like wildfire.

Reports of the "gas chambers" leaked out during the war but were regarded by all parties as being obvious wartime nonsense. At some point the Allies realized there was a propaganda benefit to the story and began to encourage it. By the end of the war the Soviets - who had a laundry list of war crimes with their name on it - realized that the gas chamber story was a very useful propaganda tool to whitewash themselves in comparison. And as the dust from the war began to clear, the Zionists, who had been pushing for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine for almost 50 years by that point, realized that the gas chamber story might finally be their ticket to the literal promised land.

So essentially at that point you have five factions who allhave an incentive to push the gas chamber atrocity propaganda as having been an actual historical event, because they all benefit directly from doing so:

1) The Allies - The gas chamber story whitewashes their own war crimes, gives them the absolute post-war moral high ground when contrasted with the defeated Nazis, allows total discretization of the Nazi ideology in the future and provides a legal and moral justification for killing or jailing as many surviving Nazis as possible.

2) The Soviets - Same as above.

3) Zionist diaspora Jews - The gas chamber story provides them the perfect PR cover story to finally drum up enough international support to establish the Zionist state of Israel in Palestine.

4) German/Polish Jews who suffered through the Holocaust - The gas chamber story results in international sympathy and significant aid, which is desperately needed to help them return to normal life. Also results in direct transfer payments from the new German government for life.

5) The new German government - Their power depends completely on pleasing the victorious Allies and Soviets and distancing themselves entirely from the defeated Nazis. Going along with the gas chamber story allows them to justify doing so to their own stunned and beleaguered countrymen.

The result was that in the aftermath of the war there was every incentive for the parties in power to treat the gas chamber story as if it actually occurred - even if it did not. The only people who could object to the story were in no position to do so - having been defeated utterly, killed and/or captured. In the decades after the war the story gradually grew into the status of myth or legend, and ultimately religion. It came to symbolize something for the Jews - a sort of trial or crucible they survived. It developed into an important social binding tool, a shared myth they all relate to that helps to define and solidify their intra-tribal bonds.

(01-02-2017 12:37 PM)Delta Wrote:  This common misrepresentation of Holocaust denial (as denial that anything happened, rather than denial that the purpose of the camps was extermination), coupled with its illegality throughout most of Europe, is enough to cast some doubt in my eyes. Let's say you know a guy named Joe. You can't go around telling everyone Joe is a crazy idiot with ridiculous beliefs, and then cover Joe's mouth and knock him unconscious when he tries to speak up for himself. If he's so insane, why not let him open his mouth and prove you right?

I'm not saying I totally buy into what Scorpion and others are saying. I'd have to do much more research to form such an opinion. But my mind is more open than it used to be.

And this is really the problem with "Holocaust denial" laws, and is the reason that the truth about the gas chambers will ultimately come out. You can't suppress this sort of information in the age of the internet. Throwing people in prison for disagreeing with disputed historical facts is utter madness in supposedly free Western democratic states. It's literal Soviet tactics. In the future the gas chambers will be regarded similarly as we now regard past hysterias over witches or alchemists (sidenote: everyone should read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, doing so will help one understand how these irrational beliefs form and spread time and time again throughout history). Eventually the revisionists will be vindicated.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
01-02-2017 01:37 PM
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Post: #136
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
Quote:1) The official Holocaust™ narrative ("Six million Jews were systematically murdered in gas chambers and their bodies incinerated") as it it taught and commonly believed is false. It simply did not happen. Period. There were no gas chambers.

That's not the narrative. The narrative is 6 million died total, of which a subset were gassed.

Quote:2) What actually did happen: Millions of Jews were rounded up and sent to concentration camps both within Germany and in the occupied East. They were used for free labor during the war. Conditions during the end of the war resulted in mass starvation and disease in some of the camps. This is where the terrible and iconic Holocaust pictures come from (although no one ever stops to think how people who were supposedly gassed within hours of getting off the train had months to sit around and become emaciated through starvation).

As you stated, those who could labor were not gassed immediately, they were put to work. The old, weak, sick, children, etc were killed, as well as insubordinates.

Quote:3) Stories of gas chambers emerged and were passed around by hysterical prisoners. Rumors went wild. That's very typical during wartime and in low information environment.


There are still remants of the gas chambers, eye witness testimony, pictures, zyklon b purchase orders.

Quote:4) Following the war, the persecution of the Jews (which inarguably happened - they did suffer tremendously under the Nazis) was wildly exaggerated and the Holocaust narrative was pushed as justification for the establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine. The Holocaust thus became the justification and the founding myth for the State of Israel. This is the most important thing to understand. This is the motive behind the lies and distortion, and is the reason that Holocaust revision is criminal today. If the Holocaust narrative did not happen as they say it did, the Jews know that the entire justification for the existence of Israel is called into question, and the very real crimes they committed during the 1948 war (and the crimes they continue to perpetuate today against the Palestinians) will be inexcusable.

Certainly the Holocaust was cited as reason to establish Israel, that is correct.

Quote: 5) There is no Holocaust conspiracy. At this point almost 100% of people who push the official Holocaust narrative actually believe it wholeheartedly. The Holocaust functions as a quasi-religious belief in today's secular society. It is especially important among secular Jews as a socially binding belief. I want to emphasize that again: the Holocaust is a religious belief that binds Jews together. With the invention of the Holocaust myth, the Jews essentially turned themselves as a group into their own Christ - the six million Jews who were sacrificed in order that the rest of the Jews might live (Israel). This is the other reason why the Holocaust narrative is defended so vociferously: it is not a matter of historical debate for these people. It is their religion.

First part may be true, but I don't think most Jews draw the line between believing the Holocaust happened and supporting Israel. At least most I know.

Quote:7) Most people in the West today - including non-Jews - have been utterly brainwashed to regard the Holocaust in religious terms and never question any aspect of it. This programming runs extremely deep. It's very difficult to get people to discuss this topic rationally without getting angry. You would think that telling people that six million innocent Jews did not actually get murdered in horrific fashion would be good news. But you would be wrong. In fact, if you tell people that, they get extremely upset and call you an anti-Semite.

True. But you have to consider the flip side. If the Holocaust did happen, then claiming it didn't would be pretty offensive.
01-02-2017 01:49 PM
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Post: #137
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 09:59 AM)weambulance Wrote:  The claims about the numbers of bodies supposedly burned in the crematoria didn't feel right just based on my gut scientific sense, so I started looking into the math. I was going to do a post detailing the problems I found, but then I found this rather long and exhaustive investigation into that very question:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html

I honestly just quickly read through it and there's no way I'm spending a week checking his 200+ sources, but nothing jumped out at me as obviously wrong in his presentation. He goes into sufficient detail to even consider how many times the firebrick would've had to have been replaced in the ovens.

Here's the author:


Hmm. Seems sketchy... that's a scary label.

...Of course, if as a geologist I went out and did that kind of analysis showing the problems with the claims of the global warming crowd, I would be tarred with the same brush. [b]Denier. And indeed, quite a few scientists have been.

The label doesn't make them wrong.[/b]

I agree with you on this. I myself having worked in oil and gas most of my adult life, could do the same thing with the Peak Oil proponents. Working for a few of the top 10 oil companies in the world, you get access to alot of the information on the state of drilling (E&P, Upstream, and Downstream).

Anytime someone told me we were running out of oil in 50 years or whatever, I could smack them with facts and information on all the reserves available, the sizes of them, new discoveries that were being found everyday, what we currently tap and work, and fields we leave sitting because there are just cheaper ones to drill.

Even though Peak Oil and Global Warming (manmade) have been mostly debunked, history also being fact based and driven, is never easy because the evidence is constantly fading away.

(01-02-2017 12:37 PM)Delta Wrote:  I have to admit that this thread has changed my perspective in some ways.

I used to think "Holocaust denier" meant raving anti-Semitic lunatic who believes that there's some pact among Jews to make up stories about having been sent to concentration camps. In reality, the deniers' position does not require the bulk of concentration camp survivors to be lying in any way, and I don't sense any malice toward Jews in this thread. I say this being partially Jewish myself.

This common misrepresentation of Holocaust denial (as denial that anything happened, rather than denial that the purpose of the camps was extermination), coupled with its illegality throughout most of Europe, is enough to cast some doubt in my eyes. Let's say you know a guy named Joe. You can't go around telling everyone Joe is a crazy idiot with ridiculous beliefs, and then cover Joe's mouth and knock him unconscious when he tries to speak up for himself. If he's so insane, why not let him open his mouth and prove you right?

I'm not saying I totally buy into what Scorpion and others are saying. I'd have to do much more research to form such an opinion. But my mind is more open than it used to be.

Scorpion is a good man (I consider him a friend) and has done alot for this community. Not saying he can never be wrong on something either. Even if he was, he is usually fairly gracious in acknowledging it. For those on the fence, I would say at least give him a chance on it and hear him out. It's not like he banged your mom. Tongue

I myself, like I said before, I had doubts about the numbers but did not think about it too much because there are issues concerning numbers in other parts of WW2 history, like the number or Indians, Chinese, Koreans, and Filipinos killed or executed (eg. Rape of Nanjing's 300,000 deaths). Stalingrad's numbers has been subject to some strong debate in the past on just how many civilians and Russians were killed in the siege. That entire siege was ridiculous! It easily matched at that time Hitler's incredible psychosis.

Anyway if Scorpion says something isn't right about something, he isn't the type to cry wolf, and that is good enough reason to dig along and see what the deal is. It will take me some time to read through all of what he and others like Gorgiass have posted.

Germany/Germanic people have a strange and a very, very long history. They (The Anglo Saxons) pretty much snuffed out the Ancient Britons, so they are no stranger to rape/conquest. I don't know how Samseau and others can read and research Ancient history as much as they do. Makes my head spin sometimes trying to remember what ethnic group is fighting which, as if remembering all the Biblical ones is not hard enough.

The couple of German guys posting here made good posts. Parzival's post was excellent. I do feel bad for the young man whose great grandfather was SS and was part of that. What I would say as a person who has an ancestor that killed almost 200 innocent white people in a slave rebellion is that, you cannot internalize that emotional stuff as your crime or burden. They did what they did, you have your own life. Take their good and discard the rest and learn from it. Even though Scorpion said it kinda mean, he is right about how Germany's youth need to start standing up for themselves again. At some point they need to get back on the horse. Let's just hope it is not too late for that.

This is a good discussion fellas as long as it stays civil it should stay that way.

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01-02-2017 01:50 PM
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Post: #138
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 12:03 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Doubting a dirty running, 1930's technology, 38.8 liter diesel's exhaust has the ability to kill a room full of people just weakens your argument.

Find a different hill to defend as you look dumb here.

Good point. This is a 6.6 liter clean diesel on runaway.




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01-02-2017 02:04 PM
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Post: #139
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 01:49 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  That's not the narrative. The narrative is 6 million died total, of which a subset were gassed.

The problem is that the numbers of the official narrative keep changing (see the Auschwitz plaque I posted earlier, which was revised from 4 million down to 1.5 million). More about that here: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n3p24_weber.html

(01-02-2017 01:49 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  As you stated, those who could labor were not gassed immediately, they were put to work. The old, weak, sick, children, etc were killed, as well as insubordinates.

False. Utterly and totally false. I will quote here, which provides scans of the original documentation proving as much: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p265_weber.html

Quote:Consistent with the Sterbebuch records, other German wartime documents show that a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates at Auschwitz were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. [5]

For example, an internal German telex message dated September 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work. All of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work. [6]

This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the WVHA agency responsible for the concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." [7]

The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was, in fact, established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for others temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps. [8]

(01-02-2017 01:49 PM)nmmoooreland20 Wrote:  There are still remants of the gas chambers, eye witness testimony, pictures, zyklon b purchase orders.

Completely false and/or misleading. For example, the "gas chambers" on display at Auschwitz were "reconstructions" that were not build until AFTER the war ended. The eyewitness testimony is completely unreliable as I have documented in numerous posts in this thread. The pictures usually show piles of emaciated corpses which clearly died from starvation and/or disease and have nothing to do with gas chambers. We also know for a fact that the Allies and the Soviets doctored photographs in an attempt to prove Nazi war crimes. As for Zyklon B purchase orders, they in no way prove the existence of homicidal gas chambers. It simply shows that they were using insecticide (that is what Zyklon B was manufactured and marketed as) to delouse clothing and bedding to halt the spread of disease.

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01-02-2017 02:21 PM
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Post: #140
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
Quote:Starving prisoners. The official narrative is that most new prisoners went to the gas chambers. So the men you see in that photo were the workers. It also doesn't show that these guys would get gassed.

I'm really undecided on this piece of history. My intuition says there were gas chambers, but not with super deadly gasses. Easy enough to suffocate with lots of different cheaper gasses. And gas chambers weren't the primary method of killing. Gas was for people who did not know they were going to be killed.

If I had to devise a mass extermination camp, it would be:

- Keep the strongest men for labor and sexiest women for soldier's slaves.
- Have the workers dig pits all around the camp.
- Blindfold new arrivals of the undesirables and lead them out into the fields in front of the pits, machine gun them, have workers fill in pits later.
- Tell workers as long as they work they won't be killed.
- When workers become too weak and infirm give them the final shower.

This way the workers are less likely to escape or revolt and keep working hard, is much cheaper and easier than gassing every new arrival. That's my guess.

That's actually how I've always heard the story told, with a little less emphasis on shooting (that was more in punishment situations) and not necessarily setting aside the sexy women.
01-02-2017 05:28 PM
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Post: #141
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
IHR is not a reputable academic source any more than something like ICR (Institute for Creation Research) is. Holocaust denial and creationism are equivalent in the lack of evidence, special pleading, and incoherence of the theories.

When you can't explain the data, as denialism can't, then you have to find a way to explain it away.

"For you yourselves are aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night" (1 Thess. 5:2)
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 06:47 PM by Truth Teller.)
01-02-2017 06:44 PM
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Post: #142
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
Shit like what they put Erns Zundel or David Irving through really pisses me off, and I say that as a half-Jew. Dragging these poor bastards from trial to trial, country to country all because they have a different take on what really happened to to jews in WWII.

Then there's that mechanic from Cleveland who they accused of being a camp guard. I'm surprised he didn't from constant hassle and harrassment from Jew organizations.

Jews wonder why anti-semitism still persists, and it's partly because of stunts like this.
01-02-2017 10:14 PM
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Post: #143
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 06:44 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  IHR is not a reputable academic source any more than something like ICR (Institute for Creation Research) is. Holocaust denial and creationism are equivalent in the lack of evidence, special pleading, and incoherence of the theories.

When you can't explain the data, as denialism can't, then you have to find a way to explain it away.

You're conflating denialism with revisionism, a strawman which has been illuminated already on this thread.

It's on mainstream Holocaust historians to give sufficient evidence for their hypothesis, that IHR link just details the official narrative being changed multiple times after being challenged.
01-02-2017 10:17 PM
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Post: #144
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
I checked out the Normal Finklestein video posted in this thread, an impressive man.

In the video he was being interviewed primarily about his controversial book, "The Holocaust Industry"

He answered the interviewer with the following when asked what his book was about:

“Basically the central thesis of the book is that American Jewish organizations have exploited the holocaust for financial and political gain”

and

“nobody will dispute that the greatest authority ( on the holocaust ) is Raul Hilberg”

again, “nobody will dispute that the greatest authority ( on the holocaust ) is Raul Hilberg”


So I looked up Raul Hilberg and found this.

http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/09hilberg.html

I've had cursory glance and it's pretty interesting to say the least.
01-02-2017 10:21 PM
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Post: #145
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 06:44 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  IHR is not a reputable academic source any more than something like ICR (Institute for Creation Research) is. Holocaust denial and creationism are equivalent in the lack of evidence, special pleading, and incoherence of the theories.

Well, do you really expect there to be peer-reviewed mainstream academic journals questioning the prevailing Holocaust narrative? Why do you think we're discussing this stuff on RVF and not in real life?

Of course you would say it's "not reputable". Once you criminalize and/or socially ostracize anyone who questions these kinds of things you force them underground.

The RVF is "not reputable". CNN is. Guess which one is closer to the truth.
01-02-2017 10:38 PM
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Post: #146
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 12:03 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Doubting a dirty running, 1930's technology, 38.8 liter diesel's exhaust has the ability to kill a room full of people just weakens your argument.

Find a different hill to defend as you look dumb here.

See, this is the problem with threads like these. Normally reasonable people suddenly bunch their panties into a singularity so dense no honest discourse can escape.

As such I won't bother explaining the difference between smoke and poisonous gas any more than I'd bother explaining the horizon to a hostile flat-earther.
01-02-2017 10:40 PM
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Post: #147
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
To all those who claim gas chambers did not exist or never were used for killing, I really encourage you to go get your ass on a plane and go visit a few death camps museums in eastern Europe like I did. Until you have actually been to these places yourself it is very difficult to imagine both the enormous scale and specific layout of these camps no matter how many years you've been reading about them or how many movies and/or documentaries you've seen.

Info and map here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp

Another map here:

[Image: campsmap.gif]


You can get to Auschwitz easily by flying to the polish city of Krakow (beautiful old city with nice girls by the way, so you can leverage it with something nice) and taking a 1 hour bus or taxi journey out there. Give yourself an entire day to see everything.

The idea that the Germans would build NUMEROUS underground chambers with chimneys on top of them and place them at the far edge of the prison camps near the woods in special fenced off sections which were hidden from view, and inacessible even to regular prisoners, just for delousing and hygiene is madness.

Also, do you also really think the German authorities, who were retreating from a Russian Soviet army of MILLIONS of soldiers ready to kill and/or deport them to Stalin's Gulags would waste time and precious military resources and go to the trouble of destroying and dynamiting every single one of these chambers at the end of 1944/ January 1945 if all they were built for was delousing ?

Give me a fucking break.

Go to the death camps yourself and then you can talk about what's "logical" and "practical" and what's not.

I accept the facts about the holocaust have been highly manipulated and politicised by many parties, and numbers of those killed by gassing may be exaggerated, but you guys who have never visited a death camp in your lives need to get the fuck out of here with your comfortable armchair conclusions.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2017 12:09 AM by Mercenary.)
01-02-2017 11:28 PM
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Post: #148
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
As a native speaker I had a good laugh at the attempt to explain away "Ausrottung" by someone who obviously doesn't even speak the language - I guess that's the level of "fact checking" to be expected from that particular side.
01-03-2017 12:33 AM
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Post: #149
RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
So... I guess nobody read that crematoria analysis I linked? It's a pretty big bottleneck.

The key points are:

1. There's a hard lower floor on how fast you can cremate a human body. Burning multiple bodies in the same muffle (chamber in which the bodies were burnt, not exposed to open flame) saves neither time nor fuel.

2. For the period under examination, the ovens would've been required to run 27 hours a day to accommodate all the claimed gassed victims. This is obviously impossible since there are only 24 hours in a day. The ovens also could not be run non-stop; they required cleaning nightly and sometimes they required repairs. Internal memos show that the ovens were operated 12 hour a day.

3. Further, to accommodate all of the claimed gassed victims in the period under examination, they would've needed nearly six times more coke fuel than they actually had left after cremating the people who died "natural" deaths.

4. Ovens have a finite life before they need to be relined with new firebrick. In order to accommodate all the claimed gassed victims, the ovens would've needed to be relined five times. There's no evidence that happened. Failing to reline the ovens would've resulted in the destruction of the supporting masonry long before all the bodies could've been burned. The ovens would not have needed to be relined to accommodate the bodies of people who died "natural" deaths.
01-03-2017 12:43 AM
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RE: Holocaust fact finding thread
(01-02-2017 11:28 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  To all those who claim gas chambers did not exist or never were used for killing, I really encourage you to go get your ass on a plane and go visit a few death camps museums in eastern Europe like I did. Until you have actually been to these places yourself it is very difficult to imagine both the enormous scale and specific layout of these camps no matter how many years you've been reading about them or how many movies and/or documentaries you've seen.

...snip...

Go to the death camps yourself and then you can talk about what's "logical" and "practical" and what's not.

I accept the facts about the holocaust have been highly manipulated and politicised by many parties, and numbers of those killed by gassing may be exaggerated, but you guys who have never visited a death camp in your lives need to get the fuck out of here with your comfortable armchair conclusions.

These are not arguments. They're basically emotional appeals. You're attempting to disqualify the arguments of people by establishing an arbitrary bar they must meet in order to have a valid voice. Further, your bar is frankly silly. So you went to a death camp and it was big. It does not logically follow that you can divine the purpose of the camps.


(01-03-2017 12:33 AM)atlant Wrote:  As a native speaker I had a good laugh at the attempt to explain away "Ausrottung" by someone who obviously doesn't even speak the language - I guess that's the level of "fact checking" to be expected from that particular side.

This is the argument by selective reading fallacy. You claim one small point is wrong, therefore the whole is not worth considering.

As a non-German speaker, I don't know much about the language. But I do know about language in general. I would simply ask this: how do you know what the word means now--the common, accepted definition--is what it meant 75 years ago?

It is not implausible that the accepted meaning of the word changed in light of its usage in relationship to the holocaust. Semantic change happens all the time, even when it's not tied to such a controversial event.
01-03-2017 12:54 AM
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