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Holocaust fact finding thread
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #101
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 10:01 AM)not-a-pua Wrote:  
(12-31-2016 12:57 PM)scorpion Wrote:  1) The official Holocaust™ narrative ("Six million Jews were systematically murdered in gas chambers and their bodies incinerated") as it it taught and commonly believed is false. It simply did not happen. Period. There were no gas chambers.

What does your "research" consist of? I posted that interview with THREE SS men that were in Auschwitz. One of them even did the phenol injections into prisoners hearts.

All of them confirm the existence of gas chambers and crematoria. We had a HUGE trial in German in the 60ies against perpetrators. ALL the material is available, transcripts, everything.
He1. Auschwitz Trialre.

Also, here you have Heinrich Himmler personally talking about the extermination of the Jews in Posen, Poland. Yes it's him, yes he talks extermination (don't gimme some bullshit halfwit understanding of German, like "root out" means something different)




No one has ever lied about wartime atrocities, right?





Quote:Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ (Arabic: نيره الصباح‎), called "Nurse Nayirah" in the media, was a fifteen-year-old Kuwaiti girl, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, in verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War. Her testimony, which was regarded as credible at the time, has since come to be regarded as wartime propaganda. The public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was in the employ of Citizens for a Free Kuwait, had arranged the testimony. Nayirah's testimony was widely publicized. Hill & Knowlton, which had filmed the hearing, sent out a video news release to Medialink, a firm which served about 700 television stations in the United States. That night, portions of the testimony aired on ABC's Nightline and NBC Nightly News reaching an estimated audience between 35 and 53 million Americans. Seven senators cited Nayirah's testimony in their speeches backing the use of force. President George Bush repeated the story at least ten times in the following weeks.

Here is some advice that will serve you well in life: people often lie, and they especially often lie when they have incentive to do so. But sometimes they lie for no discernible reason whatsoever. There's a long history of Jews lying about being Holocaust victims as I pointed out earlier in the thread. I have no reason to believe there would not also be German soldiers who would lie about things they saw and experienced in similar fashion. Why? I don't know. Maybe it makes them feel better about the war. Who knows. All I do know for sure is that people lie all the time, and that truth is the first casualty of war.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
01-01-2017 10:56 AM
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Post: #102
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
Ok Scorpion, I see. There is nothing that can convince you that it really happened. Not even actual real SS men that said I was there, I did this and people that doubt it are stupid. Not even Himmler, talking to his men and bragging what they did.

Erber clearly stated that three thousand people could be gassed in Birkenau in two crematoria.

I have one additional report from Hans Münch:
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-8001833.html

You can read on, every stupid claim by your deniers is commented here:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.d...ce-on.html


I'm out here.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 01:16 PM by not-a-pua.)
01-01-2017 12:58 PM
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Teedub
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Post: #103
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I have to make a small correction to my last post in this thread.

There were actually 5 seperate gas chambers at Auschwitz, some of which were on ground level inside houses, so not all were in basements. Also, the 5 crematoria varied quite a bit in sizes, so not all were the same. I don't know of the specific capacity of every single one. I could just make estimates based on the the ruins of the ones I did see.

When I visted a few years ago, I think I only had time to see the remains of 2 or 3 of them, but not all. The actual prisoner camp areas of Auschwitz (there is more than one camp at Auschwitz) are really huge in their scale and you need a lot of time to see everything.

Crematoria II, III and V were destroyed by the Germans when they retreated from the advancing Soviet Russian army at the end of 1944/January 1945.

Crematorium IV was sucessfully destroyed by a prisoner sonderkommando revolt on 7 October 1944.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 01:25 PM by Mercenary.)
01-01-2017 01:24 PM
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Post: #104
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
This link will take you to an article that appeared in the Canadian press during the first false news prosecution of Ernst Zundel. This trial, and the subsequent re-trial of Zundel in the 1980's were the last time the homicidal gas chamber narrative was placed under scrutiny by the cross-examination of Holocaust™ experts.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/wordpres...-Proof.jpg

The following exchange between Zundel's lawyer and expert Raol Hilberg is accurate:

Q. "Can you give me one scientific report that shows the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi occupied territory?

A. "I am at a loss."

Q. "You are at a loss because you can't"

For further reading -

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Holocaust-T...aust+trial

Some of the reviews of the book are very interesting in their own right.
01-01-2017 01:52 PM
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storm Offline
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Post: #105
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(12-31-2016 03:26 PM)Teedub Wrote:  I'll repeat again the words of the 94 year old ex-SS officer who outed himself to challenge deniers, and got a prison sentence as a result:

Quote:He had always refused to talk about Auschwitz even to his own family but now he wanted to give witness against the Holocaust deniers, such as friends at his local philately club, who had insisted the camps were all a lie. That was why he said on film: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."

Why on earth would he make it up?

Like I said at the start of this thread, nobody is going to be changing anyone's mind on this subject.

Speak for yourself. I would like to hear both sides of the argument in a well-reasoned manner and without any shaming of the holocaust deniers.

The fact that there actually are laws against having this reasoned argument grants the counter-narrative substantial legitimacy and emotional meltdowns like the following do not help your case:

(12-31-2016 11:56 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  The fact that this thread exists is a fucking disgrace. The Holocaust happened, like it or not. If you don't like Jews, that's an issue that operates independently of whether or not the Holocaust happened.

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(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 02:29 PM by storm.)
01-01-2017 02:16 PM
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nomadbrah Offline
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Post: #106
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I'm not going to participate in this thread unless people drop the "the Holocaust happened get over it" or "muh eye witnesses".

Are you interested in truth? Then post credible proof.

For example, posting blueprints that clearly say crematorium and showers is not evidence and it does not become evidence just because you put quotations around "showers".

Humbly, get your shit together, argue seriously and with an open mind if you're going to engage at all, the standard fare of half truths can be found anywhere in mainstream media.
01-01-2017 02:23 PM
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Valentine Offline
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Post: #107
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I started this thread because I'm not too knowledgeable about the truth of the Holocaust but since RVF is a very knowledgeable bunch I've been able to discover a number of things rather quickly:

- There are still people to this day who do not personally know anyone who suffered in the Holocaust, who are not themselves Jewish, yet are so highly triggered by the discussion they try to shut it down simply because they think for some reason that this event above all others is never to be questioned.

- No-one is doubting that a huge amount of Jews did die yet there is a huge amount of strawmans being put up to imply that the skeptics here are in fact Holocaust deniers. I guess it all depends on what your definition of the Holocaust is (is the definition 6 million Jew deaths with ~50% by gas chambers? Or is for example 6 million with 0% by gas chambers enough to still be considered "the Holocaust"?) but as far as I can see no-one has denied a lot of Jews died, merely exactly how much and the methods by which they died.

- There is a massive conflict of interest involved in those who spread the official Holocaust narrative. Testimonies extracted via torture/extortion, survivors who want to gain as much as possible for their fellow Jews and of course the Jewish elite globalists who run the whole damn show. They own the media, the universities, the historians, the central banks which fund all of this, everything, so why would they pass up this opportunity to be able to paint those who attack their interests as anti-semitic pro-Holocaust Nazis?

- The evidence here is wholly unconvincing that mass murder by gas chambers did occur. It strikes me as hugely inefficient for killing, easy disposal of corpses, usage of materials and labour.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 03:40 PM by Valentine.)
01-01-2017 03:36 PM
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Parzival Offline
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Post: #108
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
The demonisation of Germans did start even before World War I. Hollywood had great influence to create a very negative image. They simply had the better propaganda. The Huns, savages, evil and whatever. The Brits had the intention to demonise Germans and Germany. This image was carried on between the wars and also after World War II. The Brits set propaganda that Germans cut of hands of children, that we are savages and similar stuff. Out of this its just an easy step to assume in the next war, the evil Germans want to wipe out the jews.

When I did grow up, there had be many shows and fairs that even used fake pictures of war crimes. It came into light later. I did wonder: When the Nazis had be so horrible and bad, why do they need to fake stuff to paint them even worse?

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01-01-2017 04:27 PM
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iknowexactly Offline
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Post: #109
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 02:23 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  I'm not going to participate in this thread unless people drop the "the Holocaust happened get over it" or "muh eye witnesses".

Are you interested in truth? Then post credible proof.

The holocaust happened, get over it.

Don't forget the poor Russians and what they went through either, while you're facing basic history.

The siege of Leningrad, and the "Hunger Plan" by Nazi General Backe caused the death of millions of Russians.
Stalin may have outdone Hitler.

Anyone who
1) claims transcendental ( not objectively visible) knowledge,
2) entitling them to kill and then
3) starts in with murdering non-violent people
is basically a human cancer.


How's this photo for evidence? Maybe there were a lot of Hollywood Special FX guys hanging out with nothing to do and this is faked.


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(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 06:28 PM by iknowexactly.)
01-01-2017 06:02 PM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #110
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
Starving prisoners. The official narrative is that most new prisoners went to the gas chambers. So the men you see in that photo were the workers. It also doesn't show that these guys would get gassed.

I'm really undecided on this piece of history. My intuition says there were gas chambers, but not with super deadly gasses. Easy enough to suffocate with lots of different cheaper gasses. And gas chambers weren't the primary method of killing. Gas was for people who did not know they were going to be killed.

If I had to devise a mass extermination camp, it would be:

- Keep the strongest men for labor and sexiest women for soldier's slaves.
- Have the workers dig pits all around the camp.
- Blindfold new arrivals of the undesirables and lead them out into the fields in front of the pits, machine gun them, have workers fill in pits later.
- Tell workers as long as they work they won't be killed.
- When workers become too weak and infirm give them the final shower.

This way the workers are less likely to escape or revolt and keep working hard, is much cheaper and easier than gassing every new arrival. That's my guess.

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01-01-2017 07:21 PM
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Post: #111
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 01:52 PM)Jim Kirk Wrote:  This link will take you to an article that appeared in the Canadian press during the first false news prosecution of Ernst Zundel. This trial, and the subsequent re-trial of Zundel in the 1980's were the last time the homicidal gas chamber narrative was placed under scrutiny by the cross-examination of Holocaust™ experts.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/wordpres...-Proof.jpg

The following exchange between Zundel's lawyer and expert Raol Hilberg is accurate:

Q. "Can you give me one scientific report that shows the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi occupied territory?

A. "I am at a loss."

Q. "You are at a loss because you can't"

For further reading -

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Holocaust-T...aust+trial

Some of the reviews of the book are very interesting in their own right.

Zundel was the official start of "SJW suppression" in europe and Canada. He was put on trial for spreading "false news" (sound like anything familiar from today?), his eventual conviction also led to the creation of "hate speech" laws in canada

While living in canada his home was burned down and he was the target of a mail bomb, the perpetrators were arrested but released without charge.

When he was released from prison in 2005, Canada reiterated that he should not return to canada because he was a 'national security risk'

All because he was a writer that denied the holocaust, he was not a political party leader or organizer and wasn't a jihadist, or pedo advocate.

If "the" holocaust were not such a sacred cow, I would believe its historical accounts completely, without skepticism. No one gets jailed or gets in fights for being a Rwandan genocide denier, they don't get sent mail bombs by the "tutsi defense league" Why?

I really think the question we should be examining is WHY is questioning the holocaust so dangerous? Its the west's version of drawing the prophet mohammed, with Zundel's book is the "Satanic Verses" of the secular west. (consequently, Salman Rusdie is welcome in canada and seen as a hero...)

The question itself would be a good model for understanding other maligned topics of the secular west. Canada again serves as the model, attempting to chase out our very own Roosh V for a different brand of what people wanted branded hate speech in the current year.

Even if you "Hate Nazis" if you can't learn from the parallel persecution of the "fucking white male" of today and the "neo nazi" of the 1980s you are willfully blinding yourself to a valuable lesson.

So again, I'm not interested as much in if the holocaust happened or not, I'm interested in why can't I ask that question? Its not even ignorance. I can be a moon landing conspiracist, but I'll just get laughed at, not thrown in jail. I could even ask "Was that girl really raped?" and people would be uncomfortable, I could go further with "Why are there so many black criminals?" Again...that is pushing the line, but not even remotely close, but I drop "Were there really gas chambers in the holocaust?" and holy fuck, I just pulled the "do not pass go, go directly to jail" card in monopoly.

why.

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01-01-2017 08:45 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #112
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 10:21 AM)chakalaka Wrote:  
(01-01-2017 10:07 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  It's been about 70 years.

Just about everyone involved is dead of old age.

Sure as hell there is nobody on this forum that actually suffered directly.

"Feelz" is not a relevant argument for shutting this discussion down.

If people want to make a thread discussing why the sky is actually down and the ground is actually up then more power to them. Stifling discussion has long been demonstrated to compound ignorance and breed discontent.

It is always better to air this stuff and bring evidence to light.

Your distorting what I wrote. And your being intelectually dishonest for the sake of winning an argument.

I didn´t say" directly" but family members. I don´t expect a survivor camp to be posting in RVF.

There was already a family member who mentioned an aunt being killed. This for me is both fresh and close to home.

Secondly didn´t advocated the discussion being shut down. I actually said:
"But obviously should be discussed freely. " The fact it´s illegal to discuss it works against it. Because it gives a vibe of something to hide.

You can´t reproach people who had innocent family members killed getting passionate about a discussion of how they´re were killed. Since the important is they were killed. If by gas or bullets can be discussed. But it´s irrelevant in the bigger picture. Even if the number is less (like the red cross report). It´s still a massacre. The fact the numbers are less doesn´t take away the monstrosity of the event.

What I would like to understand is both nazism and communism can de defeated. Most improtant than forbidding the holocaust discussion would be to forbidden communism. Because communism is the root of all evil. And probably was the cause of Nazism. Which was the cause of the spread of communism. Sooner than later I hope to be possible start spending money to defeat communism and any form of excessive statism.

I'm not blaming you of doing it deliberately, but you posted something and I replied, then a minute or two later your post was edited.

I edited mine in reply to some extent but you would be well aware of the what your original post read and what the gist of my post was responding to.

In future I will quote the text directly to avoid this confusion or reply only after an hour has passed. Generally speaking though I prefer to keep threads clear of excessive quotations.
01-01-2017 08:57 PM
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nomadbrah Offline
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Post: #113
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 06:02 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  How's this photo for evidence? Maybe there were a lot of Hollywood Special FX guys hanging out with nothing to do and this is faked.

A photo of starving emasciated jews, too feeble for work, still being alive in 1945 at the height of alleged genocide, that is supposed to prove something, why keep them alive?
01-01-2017 09:01 PM
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nomadbrah Offline
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Post: #114
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
The Holocaust is not allowed to be questioned because it is a religion which gives one priestly class (the jews) special permission to behave as they want.
01-01-2017 09:03 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #115
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 10:56 AM)scorpion Wrote:  ...
Here is some advice that will serve you well in life: people often lie, and they especially often lie when they have incentive to do so. But sometimes they lie for no discernible reason whatsoever. There's a long history of Jews lying about being Holocaust victims as I pointed out earlier in the thread. I have no reason to believe there would not also be German soldiers who would lie about things they saw and experienced in similar fashion. Why? I don't know. Maybe it makes them feel better about the war. Who knows. All I do know for sure is that people lie all the time, and that truth is the first casualty of war.

There's considerable value in being the one to snitch first and hardest, even if you make stuff up.

It puts the rest of your co-defendants on the defensive since they either have to agree and amplify (but get no mercy because they came afterward) or they have to defend some charges but not all charges which is generally an untenable position to be in.

Many Nazis would have seen the writing on the wall. They would have known that he who snitches first and loudest would avoid the noose, and the one who could vilify the Nazis the best would be the one they would give a light term and a minimum security cell to, even if he had to make shit up to do it. He would also be the one least vilified himself in the new Germany once his term was served, while the others would have been seen as dragging their heels to the dock and shirking their share of the guilt.

I'm not saying this is the case all over, or even at all, but that is a possible motive and certainly one that has played out in history from the vassals of deposed Kings down to the lowly pack of drug dealers busted by the local police.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 09:19 PM by Leonard D Neubache.)
01-01-2017 09:14 PM
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Post: #116
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 07:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Starving prisoners. The official narrative is that most new prisoners went to the gas chambers. So the men you see in that photo were the workers. It also doesn't show that these guys would get gassed.

I'm really undecided on this piece of history. My intuition says there were gas chambers, but not with super deadly gasses. Easy enough to suffocate with lots of different cheaper gasses. And gas chambers weren't the primary method of killing. Gas was for people who did not know they were going to be killed.

If I had to devise a mass extermination camp, it would be:

I am kind of with you on this. My academic historical expertise is definitely not Holocaust, but the 6 million estimate always seemed possibly too high to me even when I was a college student. My question for those posting in this thread is that, who exactly or what is claiming that 6 million specifically were gassed? In all my years of WW2 related coursework, I have never heard this before. From what I recall, anywhere from 1-3 million were starved, shot, tortured, buried alive, gassed, etc. The additional estimated up to 3 million more were not all Jewish, but rather a collection of Poles, POWs, Gypsy people, and other undesirables. For example someone shot while being rounded up with others before arriving, additional starvation after liberation due to displacements, lack of humanitarian supplies, war casualties around the camps, etc.

I will admit I never seriously studied WW2 in high school so if they are teaching kids that 6 million Jews died by gassing, that is unfortunate but not surprising, considering how loose and fast we are with facts of other more mundane historical stuff like JFK, Lincoln, Plymouth Rock, Native Americans, the history of Thanksgiving or Christmas, etc. All these and many more things have been constantly fudged to suit political and/or financial agendas.

WW2 is the worst thing that ever happened to mankind hands down. The Japanese had horrific war crimes that are hardly spoken about until every Asian government goes politically ballistic whenever Japanese leaders go to their war heroes shrine.

Trying to figure out which part of the war was worse is kinda tricky in my opinion. The Russian deaths are atrocious. The deaths in the Asian part of the war are almost as bad if not the same as the Jewish exterminations.

I have chatted with some WW2 and WW1 historians and while most folks like talking about the deaths during the conflict, these guys like to point out the aftermath death tolls as well (before as well in WW2's case). It's worth thinking about the after effects of WW2, when talking about the scale of death and carnage. You could make a decent argument for just alot of deaths (many from starvation or disease) after all the fighting stopped, all the way up to the 1970s, that were a direct result of WW2.

Germans kept records of many things, which make it easy, but the Chinese for example hardly wrote or recorded enough to know for sure, and to this day it is notoriously difficult to figure out how many of them really did die back then. Because of the result of the war, Mao kills/starve millions more on top of all of that. Russia could also be thrown in this same bucket. Communism as a whole as an after-effect of WW2, ruined millions of lives and set mankind back in many places in the world.

Alot of historians say WW2 is just a continuation of WW1's unresolved conflict. It's a very good argument for many reasons I won't get into, but WW2 and it's after effects did not truly stop in 1945, just the fighting itself. There was a reason many religious people thought that both world wars was the beginning of the end of the world. That's why I liked Weambulance's post about the spiritual component. That was a very evil time in the world. If you are like me a history junkie that sometimes like to visit places in the top 20 most haunted lists, the air feels different in places with heavy losses. For me it's very noticeable, especially if I get touched or see something strange.

The only thing worse than this is the war we narrowly avoided by getting Trump in office. Only a nuclear war could outdo what WW1/2 ever did.

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01-01-2017 09:22 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #117
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
This thread is definitely an instance where the thread title can dramatically affect the attitude people arrive with.

With no disrespect to OP the title infers that the holocaust either did or didn't happen when in reality most people are only interested in getting to the bottom of the details of what was obviously an event that existed on some scale or another, the only real question being the scale, the means and the motives.

Suggested thread title. "Holocaust fact finding thread".
01-01-2017 09:28 PM
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RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 06:02 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  
(01-01-2017 02:23 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  I'm not going to participate in this thread unless people drop the "the Holocaust happened get over it" or "muh eye witnesses".

Are you interested in truth? Then post credible proof.

The holocaust happened, get over it.

Don't forget the poor Russians and what they went through either, while you're facing basic history.

The siege of Leningrad, and the "Hunger Plan" by Nazi General Backe caused the death of millions of Russians.
Stalin may have outdone Hitler.

Anyone who
1) claims transcendental ( not objectively visible) knowledge,
2) entitling them to kill and then
3) starts in with murdering non-violent people
is basically a human cancer.


How's this photo for evidence? Maybe there were a lot of Hollywood Special FX guys hanging out with nothing to do and this is faked.

Rather unfortunate example you chose there....

It turns out many if not most of the famous Nazi atrocity photos were faked.




"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
01-01-2017 09:35 PM
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Post: #119
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
@Roosh

Realtalk brother. If this thread puts you at risk, safety wise in Europe, move the thread to the private section if you have to. Don't put our collective curiosity before your own personal safety. Always live to fight tomorrow. No need to be stubborn about it. We are all big boys here, we can understand.

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1 John 4:20 - If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 09:43 PM by TravelerKai.)
01-01-2017 09:42 PM
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Post: #120
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
Yeah it doesn't make any sense for the nazis to take pictures of those starving workers. They were trying to be discreet about the genocide, they obviously didn't want the world to know about it. So those pictures are indeed probably fake. But was the genocide for real? Obviously Auschwitz was not a nightclub and those people didn't die while partying there. Genocide is definitely real, the real question is , was it over exaggerated?
01-01-2017 09:44 PM
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Post: #121
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
Reading this thread, I don't know whether some members are just disputing whether the Nazis killed Jews with Zyklon-B, or disputing all of the Nazi efforts to round up and kill Jews.

I don't get why Spencer and the rest of the Nazi crowd disputes it at all. They hate Jews, love Nazis, yet when it comes to the Holocaust it's deny, deny, deny.

Fail. Should be agree and amplify, "Yeah they gassed Jews, we'd like to gas more!!"

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01-01-2017 10:14 PM
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Post: #122
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 09:28 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  This thread is definitely an instance where the thread title can dramatically affect the attitude people arrive with.

With no disrespect to OP the title infers that the holocaust either did or didn't happen when in reality most people are only interested in getting to the bottom of the details of what was obviously an event that existed on some scale or another, the only real question being the scale, the means and the motives.

Suggested thread title. "Holocaust fact finding thread".

Agreed.

Though to a lot of people the mere question of the 'fact finding' with the Holocaust will provocate hysterical and manical crying and shouting.

That's because it is a defacto religion.

In any case, I agree with changing the title.

I myself am not convinced that there hasn't been rogue gassings of jews, could be, I also don't doubt there were some nazis who wanted to kill all the jews. Maybe Himmler indeed, he was a very "interesting" man indeed with unorthodox views to say the least, heavily into the occult and spirituality. The SS was not just some special force unit, but also Himmlers idea to repopulate the Nordic race with only top tier genetics. I wouldn't put it past Himmler to have radical ideas.

What I am almost convinced off is that there was never an orchestrated plan to exterminate all jews and that there was no industrialized genocide using gas chambers.
01-01-2017 10:26 PM
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Post: #123
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
(01-01-2017 09:28 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  This thread is definitely an instance where the thread title can dramatically affect the attitude people arrive with.

With no disrespect to OP the title infers that the holocaust either did or didn't happen when in reality most people are only interested in getting to the bottom of the details of what was obviously an event that existed on some scale or another, the only real question being the scale, the means and the motives.

Suggested thread title. "Holocaust fact finding thread".

No disrespect taken, I just thought it was a catchy term after reading it on some counter-narrative site. Mods feel free to change the title so others don't get the wrong impression.
01-01-2017 10:31 PM
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Post: #124
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
I'm going to steal a page from the denialist playbook and take the quote out of order to set the frame, but this is a good one.

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Unfortunately for your case, we have ever-reliable eyewitness testimony from the Gerstein report that contradicts what you're saying:

Quote:The text which follows is a portion of the Gerstein statement as given in the English translation of Harvest of Hate by Leon Poliakov. Aside from a rather brazen "error" on the part of Poliakov, namely the claim that 700 to 800 bodies were crowded into 93 square meters instead of only 25 square meters (which is the way the original documents actually read) it is probably no worse a translation than any of the other versions which can be found. (fn. 6)

SS men pushed the men into the chambers. "Fill it up," Wirth ordered, 700-800 people in 93 [sic] square meters. The doors closed. Then I understood the reason for the "Heckenholt" sign. Heckenholt was the driver of the Diesel, whose exhaust was to kill these poor unfortunates. SS Unterscharführer Heckenholt tried to start the motor. It wouldn't start! Captain Wirth came up. You could see he was afraid because I was there to see the disaster. Yes, I saw everything and waited. My stopwatch clocked it all: 50 minutes, 70 minutes, and the Diesel still would not start! The men were waiting in the gas chambers. You could hear them weeping "as though in a synagogue," said Professor Pfannenstiel, his eyes glued to the window in the wooden door. Captain Wirth, furious, struck with his whip the Ukrainian who helped Heckenholt - The Diesel started up after 2 hours and 49 minutes, by my stopwatch. Twenty-five minutes passed. You could see through the window that many were already dead, for an electric light illuminated the interior of the room. All were dead after thirty-two minutes! Jewish workers on the other side opened the wooden doors. They had been promised their lives in return for doing this horrible work, plus a small percentage of the money and valuables collected. The men were still standing, like columns of stone, with no room to fall or lean. Even in death you could tell the families, all holding hands. It was difficult to separate them while emptying the room for the next batch. The bodies were tossed out, blue, wet with sweat and urine, the legs smeared with excrement and menstrual blood. (fn. 7)

It was not a peephole through which Prof. Pfannenstiel supposedly looked into the gas chamber-it was a window. And it was a window in a wooden door-not a steel, gas-tight door as one might expect. Apparently, there were wooden doors on two sides of at least one of the gas chambers. We are told that the intended victims were still alive after almost three hours in the gas chambers before the Diesel even started. Surely, there must have been many air leaks into the chambers or else the Jews would have been asphyxiated without the aid of any Diesel.

From here: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v05/v05p-15_Berg.html

The reality is this: if these alleged gas chambers were used at anywhere near the capacity the eyewitness accounts and alleged victim numbers propose, poison gas would not have been necessary at all. These people were allegedly crammed in like sardines with standing room only. The Nazis could have done away entirely with all the logistical, operational and safety problems associated with the use of poison gas. They could have simply sped the asphyxiation process along by pumping inert gas (such as helium or argon) into the chamber. The people inside would be dead within minutes.

Your article deals with a completely different gas methodology, so different as to be nearly irrelevant; clearly however, the very text you quoted indicates that suffocation alone isn't an ideal option, as the Jews survived several hours in the chamber (albeit a non-hermetically sealed one) before the engine started.

However, I'm glad you brought that site to my attention, as I happen to know my way around an engine. Again, several glaring falsehoods jumped out, and on further reading the volume of lies in that single piece is truly staggering - a prime example of the sort of misleading denialist literature I already mentioned. Your article takes 17 pages attempting to explain why diesel exhaust couldn't be used for execution (and therefore the Holocaust couldn't have happened), I will explain in just a few paragraphs why it can.

Ideal burn (stochiometric) ratio for gas and diesel engines is nearly identical, approx 14.5:1, there is no diesel engine which runs at 200:1. A diesel engine is not “nothing more than an unusual kind of blower” it is the original internal combustion engine. Every single phrase like this in that article is designed with an end goal in mind - to set a false frame and deliberately mislead the readership into falling for their lies.

A running engine consumes several hundred cubic feet per minute of ambient air and expels several times this volume in heated exhaust. According to your quote the room was 1883 cubic feet. If the other translation is correct, the room was 7000 sqft. Either way, it's pretty obvious that in virtually no time at all, every bit of ambient air in this room will be displaced by exhaust. At these volumes, as soon as exhaust is vented into this room every air leak becomes an exhaust point in itself and becomes irrelevant, thus the lack of need for hermetic sealing.

But what is diesel exhaust?
[Image: v2n4a3i5.jpg]

Nearly all of your article focuses on CO, this is an attempt at misdirection (more on that later). But what does it say about CO2? (While reading below, note the weasel words and deliberately misleading verbiage - “not really any more” poisonous, “harmless” stimulant, “gradually” increases).

IHR.com= Wrote:Carbon dioxide is not really any more poisonous than ordinary water.
IHR.com= Wrote:Carbon dioxide can be beneficial and therapeutic. 2-5 It is commonly used in clinical medicine as a harmless stimulant for respiration, for which purpose it is supplied under pressure in cylinders
IHR.com= Wrote:Levels of 3% carbon dioxide are quite tolerable for exposures lasting several days. For example, in the 1950s the U.S. Navy experimented with gas mixtures containing 3% carbon dioxide and 15% oxygen
IHR.com= Wrote:For Diesel engines, the carbon dioxide level at or near idle is only about 2% and gradually increases to about 12% at full load as shown in Figure 6. A carbon dioxide level of 12% may cause cardiac irregularity and may, therefore, be dangerous for people with weak hearts.

What do Wikipedia, scientists, and health professionals say about CO2?
Quote:Concentrations of 7% to 10% (70,000 to 100,000 ppm) may cause suffocation, even in the presence of sufficient oxygen, manifesting as dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour.
Quote:The OSHA's maximum safe level is 3% (30,000 ppm); lethal concentration (death in 30 minutes) is 10% (100,000 ppm).

Truly an incredible example of deception, even by denialist standards. But wait - note that all these examples I've given so far have dealt with diesels running above stochiometric. Although IHR tells you that diesels can run up to ratios of 200:1, they don't tell you that they can run well under stochiometric ratios as well, and when they do the lethality of the exhaust gas increases exponentially, including levels of CO they spent 17 pages trying to debunk.

This is what the denialist literature is – shills with no qualms about lying to people about things which could kill them (Oh, I read on IHR.com that I don't need to open the garage door while I preheat my car if it's a diesel!) as long as they successfully manipulate their reader's opinions, objective truth be damned.


(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  Mainstream Holocaust scholars (aka non-revisionists) will tell you that the camps liberated by the Americans were NOT "death camps" and did NOT contain gas chambers. So no, those pictures do not show anyone who died from Zyklon B gassing. Those are clearly prisoners who were suffering from starvation and/or Typhus. Also, according to the official Holocaust narrative, prisoners at death camps were led directly off trains into showers and gas chambers. They would not have time to starve and become emaciated as seen in those pictures. The very evidence you present as supposedly showing gas chamber victims shows the exact opposite: these were prisoners who had been at the camps for an extended period of time.

I never claimed anyone in the earlier images did or didn't die from gas, just that those were the conditions greeting liberators. When a man marches hundred of miles in ripped boots, on poor rations, over the bodies of his friends, and arrives at a sight like that with the enemy just over the horizon he doesn't sit down and schedule autopsies and call in CSI to dust for fingerprints. This was war first, a crime scene second

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  This is one of those answers that satisfies people on the surface, but which falls apart when you actually think about it. "Oh, they just wore gas masks. Easy." The problem is that there is conflicting testimony regarding the wearing of gas masks. In fact, the most credible "eyewitness" to the gas chambers whose testimony was cited as evidence in the Irving trial by Deborah Lipstadt makes no mention of gas masks worn by Sonderkommados at all:

Quote:Let us begin with van Pelt's omission. In his book van Pelt published some of Olere's more important sketches regarding the structure and operation of the alleged gas chambers, but failed to include one of his most important drawings. It is the painting showing the Sonderkommmandos opening the gas chamber door and pulling the bodies out after a mass gassing. In the painting, the inmates are shirtless, and they are not wearing any gas masks, rubber gloves or protective suits.

Taken from: http://www.rense.com/general69/gasccm.htm

Also, a gas mask is not a magical device. They are clumsy, uncomfortable, easy to use improperly, and difficult to wear for long periods of time, especially while engaging in physical labor. The idea that men would just easily put on gas masks then walk into a highly poisonous room and engage in rough physical labor (lifting and carrying hundreds of bodies) for months on end without any difficulty or incident defies belief.

You're attempting to create a straw man, and using rhetorical tools. Note the incredulous phrasing and adjectives to sway readers - “easily” put on a mask, “highly” poisonous (not with a mask), “rough” physical labor (as opposed to gentle?). No one has said it was easy or without risk, but it's certainly no incredible feat to put on a gas mask and drag bodies up some stairs. Neither has anyone said it was without incident – they were disposable slave labor so worker's comp claims weren't a concern. I have worn a gas mask before. It's cumbersome but not much more so than a good P95 respirator. I wore a respirator regularly for several years for work, and I performed plenty of physical labor while wearing it. Not a problem at all, and I had a choice. Regardless, on further reading I also learned that the chambers were power ventilated (and in fact there are existing letters from the manufacturer of Zyklon B detailing ventilation requirements), gas masks were only worn if there was a backup of those awaiting execution.

But this is another interesting link you have here which we should explore. The misdirection is more subtle than the last one but still present throughout, using weasel words and selective phrasing to paint any contradiction between thousands of accounts as something sinister. For example, the image in question, drawn by a survivor with no explanation given as to artistic license -

[Image: lectureFichiergw.do?ID_FICHIER=1454167446863]

becomes evidence of a “lie” because an alleged expert, Leuchter, says that they would need full biohazard suits. This expert's theories, it turn out, were the basis for the entire other link you gave, which was one gigantic lie. So who is this Leuchter, aside from a proven liar?

Quote:In 1988 Leuchter was hired by Ernst Zündel, who was being tried in Canada for publishing works of Holocaust denial, to investigate and testify as an expert witness at his trial, for a fee of $30,000.

Quote:Lab manager James Roth testified under oath to the results at the trial. It was only after he got off the stand that Roth learned what the trial was about. In an interview for Morris' film, Roth states that cyanide would have formed an extremely fine layer on the walls, to the depth of one-tenth of a human hair. Leuchter had taken samples of indeterminate thickness (he is seen in Morris' film hammering at the bricks with a rock hammer). Not informed of this, Roth had pulverized the entire samples, thus severely diluting the cyanide-containing layer of each sample with an indeterminate amount of brick, varying for each sample. Roth offers the analogy that the tests were like "analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber that's behind it."[14]
Leuchter did not examine the walls of the gas chambers until 50 years after they had been used; his critics note that it would have been virtually impossible to discover any cyanide at all using his method. In fact, tests conducted on ventilation grates immediately after the end of the war showed substantial amounts of cyanide. The chambers were demolished by the Nazis when they abandoned Auschwitz, and the facilities Leuchter examined were, in fact, partially reconstructed. Leuchter was unaware that part of the camp and chambers were reconstructed, so he had no way of knowing if the bricks he was scraping were actually part of the original gas chamber.
Many of Leuchter's conclusions are based on the assumption that it would take 20 to 30 hours to air a room disinfected with Zyklon-B; since far lower concentrations are required when gassing people than for delousing, it would take only 20 to 30 minutes to air out the room. Therefore, the forced ventilation systems used would be more than adequate to allow the gas chambers to be operated without endangering the executioners. When questioned in court, Leuchter admitted he had not seen a document by the Waffen SS Commandant for construction issued when the gas chambers were constructed, which estimated they had a 24-hour capacity of 4756 people, more than 30 times Leuchter's estimate of 156.
Leuchter's opposition to the possibility of gas chambers rests on the relatively low concentration of cyanide residue measured in his sample of the remains of the gas chambers in Auschwitz, compared to his sample of the "delousing chambers" in which clothes were deloused using the same gas, hydrogen cyanide. However, his report contains the assumption that lower concentrations are required for delousing than to kill humans and other warm blooded creatures; in fact, with their simpler structures and slower metabolisms, insects are more resistant to such gross metabolic poisons than mammals. Both toxicological study and practical experience demonstrate that it takes a much higher concentration of cyanide (16,000 parts per million) to kill insects than to kill humans (300 PPM), as well as an exposure time of many hours rather than only minutes. Leuchter also fails to explain his belief that Zyklon-B was used for delousing, in view of his belief that the product would present technical difficulties in ventilating and decontaminating such as to make it impractical for use in a gas chamber. Nor has he ever explained why such large chambers would be needed for delousing clothes.

I learned about this guy earlier tonight, and spent some time reading about him and others in this book - Deniers of the Holocaust: Who the are, What they do, Why they do it Have you read it? I'm guessing not, but if you're only interested in the truth, as you said, then it would make an eye-opening read.

(01-01-2017 10:33 AM)scorpion Wrote:  What if you're wrong? Have you ever even considered the possibility? What sort of evidence (or more accurately, what lack of evidence) would it take for you to entertain the possibility that the Nazis never employed gas chambers as a means for the mass murder of Jews? Remember, this is a historical inquiry, not a test of religious dogma. If the events actually took place, we should have ample historical evidence to settle the debate one way or another. No sane person questions whether or not the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. Nor is it illegal to question that fact. There is no question that the event occurred. Yet in the case of the gas chambers, we have no similar evidence despite the massive scale of the operation, and the events are illegal to question. Don't you see something wrong with that picture?

I ask you the same question. How many of your links do I need to factually debunk before you entertain any other possibilities? Crushed testicles and torture was a lie. Your major source for your post above was proven to be lying through their teeth. Your second source relies primarily on a man who was paid $30,000 to gather evidence to exonerate a Holocaust denier who used methods so unscientific my elementary science teacher would be rolling over in her grave. There is overwhelming evidence, it comes down to whether a person want to accept it or let their personal biases lead them astray. Critical thinking doesn't mean only attempting to see the other side of an issue when presented with a mainstream view, it also means considering the mainstream view when presented with an alternate.

For me? My belief requirements are somewhat simpler - I require sources which don't spend 17 straight pages lying to me.

(01-01-2017 09:35 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Rather unfortunate example you chose there....

It turns out many if not most of the famous Nazi atrocity photos were faked.




The "fake" image is not the famous one, the "fake" is the one in NYTM. It was retouched for publication to get rid of the mostly nude man front and center. People were prudes in 1945 - http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.c...amous.html
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 02:09 AM by Gorgiass.)
01-02-2017 01:59 AM
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nomadbrah Offline
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Post: #125
RE: The Holocaust (Holohoax?) Thread
The presence of an emaciated person in prison camp is in any case not proof of anything at all.

Typhoid and a slew of other diseases make people anorexic. In addition, these were prisoners in a time where supply lines were broken at the end of the war. 1 million people starved to death in Leningrad alone during a siege of less than a year and a half. No gassing needed.

20 million people starved to death in WW2: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/ar...NGHAM.html

In fact, starvation was used as a weapon AGAINST Germans after the war:

Quote:During 1945 it was estimated that the average German civilian in the U.S. and the United Kingdom occupation zones received 1,200 calories a day

The German food situation became worst during the very cold winter of 1946–47, when German calorie intake ranged from 1,000 to 1,500 calories per day

That's not enough to live on for a man. Those people in that picture are alive. Logic follows they must have received enough food to live.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_oc...population

Leading to predictable deaths:
Quote:The precise effect of the food crisis on German health and mortality has been a matter of some contention. Speaking of the Anglo-American zones, Herbert Hoover reported that in the fall of 1946, starvation produced a 40 percent increase in mortality among Germans over 70

Other historians claim that the allied forces deliberately starved millions of Germans to death following the war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses
Quote:Other Losses is a 1989 book by Canadian writer James Bacque, in which Bacque alleges that U.S. General Dwight Eisenhower intentionally caused the deaths by starvation or exposure of around a million German prisoners of war held in Western internment camps briefly after the Second World War.

Eisenhower starved a million Germans to death in a year?

Why the need for gassings at all then in the camps?

Note that criticism of this book, namely criticism of the numbers is not illegal, even though as we see above, we know for certain that German soldiers were deliberately starved to prevent an uprising (you can't live on less than 2000 cals for a man).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of...rld_War_II

You can add to that the firebombing of Dresden with slaughtered anywhere from 25.000 innocent civilians up to 500.000. Again, here we are again allowed to discuss the numbers.

Why do we take the words of the victor, one who has himself committed gruesome atrocities as gospel?
01-02-2017 02:36 AM
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