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The Trump China Policy Thread
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Luvianka Offline
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Post: #376
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Trade war is over... China won!
Mr MAGA couldn't get the job done.
It's the deficit, stupid!

With God's help, I'll conquer this terrible affliction.

By way of deception, thou shalt game women.

Diaboli virtus in lumbar est -The Devil's virtue is in his loins.
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2019 08:51 PM by Luvianka.)
05-13-2019 08:50 PM
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Deepdiver Offline
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Post: #377
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Lets Talk Cars...

I like New Japanese Cars - Highest Quality Most Reliable and Highest Resale Value in the World. One option Fully loaded with all bells and whistles - high volumes keep fully loaded costs competitive and beat cheap nickel dimer competition hands down.

I like New Korean Cars - 100K Mile Warranties bumper to bumper and near Japanese Quality and Reliability.

I like German Cars - great styling and Safety and almost as reliable as the Japanese who have turned quality into a near religion. High-End German Cars are out of the price range of the average consumer but VW has greatly improved quality and reliability and fully loaded with all the options yet cost competitive with Japanese and Korean product.

I would like to buy American yet outside of American Ford, Chevy and Ram trucks designed to take a heavy duty beating and still last 300,000 hard working miles - American cars seem cheap by comparison (Huge Worker Pay, Benefits, Insurances and phat Pensions) forces American Car Companies to cut costs everywhere else using plastic where Germans will use metals. Only saving grace for USA Auto manufacturers is that they are now using Japanese and German Robots to eliminate bad attitude and sloppy union workmanship - Joke was in the USA to you need to learn how to read VIN numbers especially day/date of manufacture and if manufactured on a Monday or Friday - steer clear - Monday was hangover day and Friday was Fuck it lets get outta here and enjoy our weekends day.

Quality suffered greatly on Mondays and Fridays... Not a Problem with Japanese, German and Korea Robotic Car manufacturing - Go Figure.

Chinese Cars, Never Seen One and would not recognize one if it ran me over - unless it was a Buick built in China for the Chinese markets in a GM Japanese Robotics operated uber quality factory.

Every Product I ever bought made in China either quit working in less than six months or was defective in some major way. The Japanese learned after the utter devastation of Japan in WWII that the way to build a world-beating economy was to build world beating quality and reliability fully loaded with all the options for a price the average working family can easily afford, same for VW and Hyundai and KIA.

Not a concept the Brazilians, Russians, Indians, Chinese or South Africans or the rest of Latin America has fully grasped... Chinese being about the worst of the BRICS bunch imo.

Until the Chinese can produce quality on par with Japan and South Korea they will doom themselves with their Good Enough for the CCP (Good enough for Government Work) attitudes.

Until that day arrives the USA has little to fear with our spanking new German and Japanese robot run Car Factories... plus all the many Japanese, Korean and German Car Factories already here capitalizing on our unlimited land, unlimited energy and unlimited demand for their Best in World Class products.

China has a long way to go to be competitive at a world-class level in anything except Tyrannical Suppression (Social Credit Scores and Reeducation Camps etc) of its people.

This is why the Trade War will hurt China much much more than the USA - we have Japan, Korea, and Germany manufacturing already here in the USA to buy from as a Yuuuge alternative supply chain - China not so much.

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(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 01:44 AM by Deepdiver.)
05-14-2019 01:26 AM
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Post: #378
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 01:26 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  Lets Talk Cars...

I like New Japanese Cars - Highest Quality Most Reliable and Highest Resale Value in the World. One option Fully loaded with all bells and whistles - high volumes keep fully loaded costs competitive and beat cheap nickel dimer competition hands down.

I like New Korean Cars - 100K Mile Warranties bumper to bumper and near Japanese Quality and Reliability.

I like German Cars - great styling and Safety and almost as reliable as the Japanese who have turned quality into a near religion. High-End German Cars are out of the price range of the average consumer but VW has greatly improved quality and reliability and fully loaded with all the options yet cost competitive with Japanese and Korean product.

I would like to buy American yet outside of American Ford, Chevy and Ram trucks designed to take a heavy duty beating and still last 300,000 hard working miles - American cars seem cheap by comparison (Huge Worker Pay, Benefits, Insurances and phat Pensions) forces American Car Companies to cut costs everywhere else using plastic where Germans will use metals. Only saving grace for USA Auto manufacturers is that they are now using Japanese and German Robots to eliminate bad attitude and sloppy union workmanship - Joke was in the USA to you need to learn how to read VIN numbers especially day/date of manufacture and if manufactured on a Monday or Friday - steer clear - Monday was hangover day and Friday was Fuck it lets get outta here and enjoy our weekends day.

Quality suffered greatly on Mondays and Fridays... Not a Problem with Japanese, German and Korea Robotic Car manufacturing - Go Figure.

Chinese Cars, Never Seen One and would not recognize one if it ran me over - unless it was a Buick built in China for the Chinese markets in a GM Japanese Robotics operated uber quality factory.

Every Product I ever bought made in China either quit working in less than six months or was defective in some major way. The Japanese learned after the utter devastation of Japan in WWII that the way to build a world-beating economy was to build world beating quality and reliability fully loaded with all the options for a price the average working family can easily afford, same for VW and Hyundai and KIA.

Not a concept the Brazilians, Russians, Indians, Chinese or South Africans or the rest of Latin America has fully grasped... Chinese being about the worst of the BRICS bunch imo.

Until the Chinese can produce quality on par with Japan and South Korea they will doom themselves with their Good Enough for the CCP (Good enough for Government Work) attitudes.

Until that day arrives the USA has little to fear with our spanking new German and Japanese robot run Car Factories... plus all the many Japanese, Korean and German Car Factories already here capitalizing on our unlimited land, unlimited energy and unlimited demand for their Best in World Class products.

China has a long way to go to be competitive at a world-class level in anything except Tyrannical Suppression (Social Credit Scores and Reeducation Camps etc) of its people.

This is why the Trade War will hurt China much much more than the USA - we have Japan, Korea, and Germany manufacturing already here in the USA to buy from as a Yuuuge alternative supply chain - China not so much.







Laugh7
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 06:44 AM by CaptainChardonnay.)
05-14-2019 06:40 AM
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Blake2 Offline
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Post: #379
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Don't underestimate the Chinese. A lot of their products are not available widely in the US (Huawei cell phones, Rexton cars, etc. ) but they aren't as bad as some people think. Probably analogous to Hyundai cars 25 years ago and rapidly improving.
There is a reason why people consider them the greatest threat to US dominance.

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05-14-2019 12:23 PM
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Post: #380
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Certain people really should be quiet in this thread.

I'm not trying to be a thought policeman, but There's so many "b-b-but China is stronger than Usa" guys who haven't taken the actual time to figure out why they think such a thing in the first place. I get it, muh feminism, Hillary and muh pedo-elites are destroying the world so any alternative is better, but seriously guys. Go back and review all those brutal things that China has been through and tell me that they've been made better for it and that you want these people leading the world effective immediately.

No offense meant to any of the Chinese bros on this forum, but I think many would agree with me when I say that China is still very much trying to decide what sort of nation it wants to be. A nation that doesn't even know what it wants to be on the world stage has no business telling other nations what to do.

You're worried about extreme economic disparity? Wait till you get a load of the hours that Chinese people work and the amount they're paid. They're truly corporate serfs and the government is totally complicit in this because they are the corporations.

You're worried about government surveillance? Enjoy being gulag'd for having opinions that aren't harmonious.

It's ironic given that this forum is full of skeptics when it comes to things like the Western intellectual/Military Supremacy, The Holocaust and Racism but they blindly believe:

1. China is absolutely going to surpass the West despite a lot of evidence to the contrary
2. China and Russia are totally gonna team-up
3. China not saying anything about the tariffs is evidence that the tariffs don't matter
4. This one belt, one road thing is totally gonna work
5. Somehow China will be a force for global good simply because they're not us.

Where do you think these ideas of Chinese exceptionalism come from? Chinese propaganda. They have a rather dedicated international apparatus that seeks to undermine Western values while trumpeting the greatness of China. They try to do this in Western universities through things like the Confucius Institute. Beware any overly optimistic predictions you get about any country, especially China.

They're currently going HAM on capital controls because they're so obsessed with keeping money inside and keeping their best and brightest from siphoning off their wealth and getting passports to other countries. Does this sound like the move of an economically secure country? They want to spread Chinese influence and wealth, but they don't even let their own people take money out of the country to actually go be a shining example to the rest of the world. Not to mention, they create insecurity (through currency manipulation) in the populace which causes them to find ways to siphon off their wealth in an ever-escalating financial arms race within their own country. Dafuq.

I don't mean to paint a picture of gloom, but I truly do see China as a country that is undecided on what it will do and what it will become. It could go either way. They could go full NK or Singapore. Hopefully the latter, but you just never know.

I had a chick over a few hours ago and she randomly mentioned to me how all her local (Chinese) friends who do business are so pissed about the tariffs and what they're doing to local businesses. Mind you, this is a tiny minority of politically vocal people, so you rest assured that for every 5 guys talking about this out loud there are tons of guys sweating bullets at the idea of American companies pulling their factories out and going elsewhere.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 12:41 PM by Fortis.)
05-14-2019 12:37 PM
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911 Offline
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Post: #381
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 01:26 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  Lets Talk Cars...

...

Chinese Cars, Never Seen One and would not recognize one if it ran me over - unless it was a Buick built in China for the Chinese markets in a GM Japanese Robotics operated uber quality factory.

Every Product I ever bought made in China either quit working in less than six months or was defective in some major way. ...

Until the Chinese can produce quality on par with Japan and South Korea they will doom themselves with their Good Enough for the CCP (Good enough for Government Work) attitudes.

...

China has a long way to go to be competitive at a world-class level in anything except Tyrannical Suppression (Social Credit Scores and Reeducation Camps etc) of its people.

This is why the Trade War will hurt China much much more than the USA - we have Japan, Korea, and Germany manufacturing already here in the USA to buy from as a Yuuuge alternative supply chain - China not so much.


Do you realize that China produces nearly 3 times as many cars as the US? It doesn't have to worry about tariffs, or US consumers, because it doesn't export autos. It already has the world's largest auto market by a wide margin.

Country Motor vehicle production (units)

China 29,015,434
USA 11,189,985
Japan 9,693,746
Germany 5,645,581
India 4,782,896
S. Korea 4,114,913
Mexico 4,068,415
Spain 2,848,335
Brazil 2,699,672
France 2,227,000
Canada 2,199,789

China's government leveraged its market size to force foreign automakers to produce locally, and to provide technology transfers. Their government has a strong and effective national industrial policy. Our governments paved the way (literally so in Mexico's case) for outsourcing and bent over backwards in order to ship auto jobs overseas.

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05-14-2019 01:36 PM
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Post: #382
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Their government has a strong and effective national industrial policy.

Its a Xenophobic policy and chinese cars are shit just like Russian cars. I dont see organised criminals stealing cars from Russia or China to get them to Western Europe or the USA.

China will keep being China and they wont change their behaviour.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 01:51 PM by Foolsgo1d.)
05-14-2019 01:50 PM
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Post: #383
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 01:36 PM)911 Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 01:26 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  Lets Talk Cars...

...

Chinese Cars, Never Seen One and would not recognize one if it ran me over - unless it was a Buick built in China for the Chinese markets in a GM Japanese Robotics operated uber quality factory.

Every Product I ever bought made in China either quit working in less than six months or was defective in some major way. ...

Until the Chinese can produce quality on par with Japan and South Korea they will doom themselves with their Good Enough for the CCP (Good enough for Government Work) attitudes.

...

China has a long way to go to be competitive at a world-class level in anything except Tyrannical Suppression (Social Credit Scores and Reeducation Camps etc) of its people.

This is why the Trade War will hurt China much much more than the USA - we have Japan, Korea, and Germany manufacturing already here in the USA to buy from as a Yuuuge alternative supply chain - China not so much.


Do you realize that China produces nearly 3 times as many cars as the US? It doesn't have to worry about tariffs, or US consumers, because it doesn't export autos. It already has the world's largest auto market by a wide margin.

Country Motor vehicle production (units)

China 29,015,434
USA 11,189,985
Japan 9,693,746
Germany 5,645,581
India 4,782,896
S. Korea 4,114,913
Mexico 4,068,415
Spain 2,848,335
Brazil 2,699,672
France 2,227,000
Canada 2,199,789

China's government leveraged its market size to force foreign automakers to produce locally, and to provide technology transfers. Their government has a strong and effective national industrial policy. Our governments paved the way (literally so in Mexico's case) for outsourcing and bent over backwards in order to ship auto jobs overseas.


The reason China has such a large automotive industry is because of its own tariffs on imported cars make it unfeasible for most people to buy an imported car. The only people who can afford imported cars are the very rich buying top makes, like Maserati or Porsche, who don't manufacture in China. Even BMW, Land Rover, and Mercedes Benz produce cars for the Chinese market domestically: Usually they print the name of the joint venture domestic company that actually manufactured the car on the back in Chinese characters.

Domestic Chinese car brands are generally subpar, and only those who can't afford a domestically produced foreign make buys one.

I agree with you that the US government is no saint and screws over its own citizens, but the Chinese government is no saint either: As Fortis says, it has its own set of problems completely different from the US. Only those who have lived in China can actually tell you what the Chinese government is actually like. If China was a perfect society, nobody, especially not the rich, would be clamoring to get their kids an Anglosphere college degree and second passport.

@911 I see that you live in Canada. If you are in a major city especially Vancouver, you will see first hand how the Chinese diaspora operates and how Anglo white Canadians feel about the massive Chinese population. Apparently, they have an excellent track record of assimilation into white Canadian society, are super welcoming towards their white neighbors, sharing each others culture while living side-by-side in harmony.

Sarcasm aside, imagine how the Chinese diaspora situation in Vancouver or Sydney on a much bigger scale: This is what you, as a foreigner, will be looking at in a potential Chinese dominated world, or a potential Chinese vassal state.

And while the Chinese will not subject themselves to hardcore SJWism anytime soon, if a SJW historically white country like Canada somehow falls under their vassalage/suzerainty, by stating "non-interference" in domestic politics, they'll simply egg on the SJWs, perhaps even by suggesting that there can be 10 bathrooms instead of 5. As long as they toe Beijing's line when it comes to geopolitics and don't interfere with Chinese interests or the Chinese diaspora's shenanigans in said country, the Chinese will stand back if not egg the local elite on as it commits national suicide of its own people.

As this old saying goes: Be careful for what you wish for.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 02:22 PM by Aquarius.)
05-14-2019 02:20 PM
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Blake2 Offline
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Post: #384
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
I misnamed the car company in a previous post- its actually Geely.
They own Volvo.

https://www.motor1.com/reviews/241388/te...-part-two/

Look at the Geely X1. It costs 6000 dollars. Well reviewed.
Imagine the millions of people around the world from Eastern Europe to Africa who would be willing to buy a halfway decent car for that price. Heck, even a lot of working class Americans would buy it.

They have a population of 1.5 billion. Yes, they are aging, but not fast enough to stop their growth.

Certainly interesting times ahead.

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05-14-2019 02:30 PM
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Post: #385
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
That doesn't say anything about China in general, but Huawei phones blow the shitty overpriced iPhone out of the water.

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05-14-2019 06:20 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Aren’t all iPhones and macbooks made in China? Pretty quality product if you ask me. My Lenovo laptop is fast and powerful, and I’ve had no issues in 3 years.

The “made in China” stigma is basically gone at this point.
05-14-2019 06:52 PM
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Post: #387
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
C'mon, Mandingo, don't be so facetious.

You definitely know that the reason the Apple factories have such high standards is because they're rigorously overseen by foreigners (Westerners) who hold the locals to exacting standards that they would not hold themselves to. Not saying Chinese don't work hard or can't do things, but Chinese products have that stigma for a reason. Remember when that Samsung phone blew up 3 years ago? I'd go so far as to say that dozens of Chinese phones have exploded over the years but you just don't hear about it.

The thinking pattern of many Chinese factory bosses:

Churn out as many products as possible for as many clients as possible to turn a profit.

They often don't need to give a shit about quality because their price point is so low that if a customer complains, they can just laugh the guy off and find 3 new clients to replace them.

There's no better evidence of this than taobao.com. Taobao is China's answer to amazon.com and boy do they fuck up with quality control.

I ordered a Ninja Blender recently. I was excited as fuck to pulverize the fuck out of some food, but when my package arrived it was not a ninja blender. It was some off brand blender. I called up the guy and told him he had to replace it. He tried to pull the old "I'll give you some of your money back if you just keep the blender."

I don't attribute malice to his actions, but this sort of thing happens enough on taobao that I suspect the dude just had some extra stock of shitty blenders and he tried to pull a bait and switch on me to get it off his hands for a higher price.

I was having none of that.

In all my years using amazon.com, I never had a package so much as scratched on the way to my house back home. In China? Me and many friends deal with scuffed packages that have been rummaged through, damaged products, misplaced products and all the other nonsense that really should not be happening regularly on a website of that size.

It's like there is no supply chain management beyond the basics.

I know what you guys will say "well it's not Taobao's fault that the people who use their platform are fuck-ups" but I disagree. You pull that level of fuckery on Amazon.com and you're banned. Gone and you get your money back the same day.

In China? The best you can do is file a complaint and the person you're complaining about will have the audacity to call you up and get angry with you for leaving them a bad review for their bad service. lol

Why am I bringing all of this up?

this is just a really long-winded way of saying that you have to walk before you run.

I'm expected to believe they'll be competing with German and Japanese quality standards but they can't even properly manage to put a package on a doorstep without fucking that up tremendously 20% of the time?

This is honestly just indicative of a larger Problem in China. namely, everyone thinks they're a damn expert at things when they're still learning. You see this across all industries.

This sort of thing has happened to a few friends of mine. I could tell stories for days about this.

You would all do well to remember the saying:

"All that glitters isn't gold." This is one of the golden rules of China.
05-14-2019 08:55 PM
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Post: #388
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 06:52 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Aren’t all iPhones and macbooks made in China? Pretty quality product if you ask me. My Lenovo laptop is fast and powerful, and I’ve had no issues in 3 years.

The “made in China” stigma is basically gone at this point.

Iphones and Macbooks are indeed manufactured in China although designed and engineered largely in the US. Its a bad example because Iphones' quality in my opinion is pretty bad. Its more of a cult than a practical product.

The Chinese are capable of making good products, especially in AI and telecommunications. Its just that you get what you pay for. Walmart demands cheap products from China, so cheap products = low standards. Likewise for cars: The Chinese makes are targeting the low end market, hence make cheap cars. When it comes to the domestic high end market, foreign brands reign, so the same domestic factories would manufacture foreign cars as a joint venture for the mid- and high-end markets. For these cars, strict international standards apply; oftentimes expat quality control engineers oversee the operation. For example, the same Geely factory that manufactures 5000 dollar suicide-on-wheels are the same ones that manufactures your high quality Volvo.

Lenovo is probably the greatest example of a Chinese company that also happens to be a well run multinational company whose Chinese leadership is able to build a good relationship with and be considerate of its worldwide employees. If only more Chinese companies with ambitions overseas actually operated like Lenovo post-IBM acquisition.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 09:12 PM by Aquarius.)
05-14-2019 09:11 PM
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Post: #389
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 08:55 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm expected to believe they'll be competing with German and Japanese quality standards but they can't even properly manage to put a package on a doorstep without fucking that up tremendously 20% of the time?

It's my understanding that the Japanese in the 50's and somewhat into the 60's had bad quality on their exports.

It's also my understanding that South Korea a few decades ago had really bad quality control problems as well.

Both the Japanese and South Koreans seem to be doing really good now and have been doing good for some time; especially given where they were not too long ago (relatively speaking).

Is there anything to indicate that China won't have relative rapid improvement in their business practices and quality control standards like Japan and South Korea?
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 10:27 PM by The Black Knight.)
05-14-2019 10:26 PM
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Post: #390
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
I get that point, but I doubt we'll see a quantum leap in 6 years time. Of course, better to for the moon and fail high in the sky than to not try at all.

I just think a lot of the things they'd need to fix go down to the societal level and will take far longer.
05-14-2019 11:05 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread


05-15-2019 11:01 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-15-2019 11:01 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  


LOL!!!

Sure thing! It's a war of values! Let's see if 'values' can afford American trade and public deficits and finance American never ending wars to protect Israel.

With God's help, I'll conquer this terrible affliction.

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(This post was last modified: 05-16-2019 02:09 PM by Luvianka.)
05-16-2019 02:07 PM
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Post: #393
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Trump is mostly right about his tough approach to trade with China, they've had their way too long, aided by the fact that American globalists like the Rockefellers, Waltons and Desmarais were cashing in on gutting their countries' industrial heartlands and outsourcing to China.

There is a lot of ground to make up there, this phenomenon has been in place since the 1980s/90s, but a national industrial policy is a good thing, better late than never. The problem however now is that the industrial and trade agenda is almost overshadowed by the budding global geopolitical superpower rivalry, so there is a whole different dynamic there than say, negotiating trade with the EU or Japan.


(05-14-2019 10:26 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 08:55 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm expected to believe they'll be competing with German and Japanese quality standards but they can't even properly manage to put a package on a doorstep without fucking that up tremendously 20% of the time?

It's my understanding that the Japanese in the 50's and somewhat into the 60's had bad quality on their exports.

It's also my understanding that South Korea a few decades ago had really bad quality control problems as well.

Both the Japanese and South Koreans seem to be doing really good now and have been doing good for some time; especially given where they were not too long ago (relatively speaking).

Is there anything to indicate that China won't have relative rapid improvement in their business practices and quality control standards like Japan and South Korea?

Japan had a cultural tradition of fine craftsmanship and group cohesion. They also looked up to American industry, studying and applying the quality control science from American leaders like William Edwards Deming, perfecting this system. Deming was far more known and revered in Japan than he ever was in America.

Fortis is right about the Chinese corner-cutting/free for all money grab mentality. They've also had an ancient tradition of fine craftsmanship, in fact the Chinese invented standardized mass production, along with the Benedictine monks in medieval Europe (though the Chinese operations were larger). That mastery was behind the early Chinese empire, through for instance the development of mass-produced metal crossbows with standardized parts and design. But that tradition was lost with the communists, who have purged their bourgeoisie and its heritage. They're slowly rebuilding it, through corporate organizations like Huawei that have been fostering across the board excellence.

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(This post was last modified: 05-16-2019 08:35 PM by 911.)
05-16-2019 08:22 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
The thing is, though, I've worked in a normal Chinese company before. I actually sent Suits and D_HZY pages of a little narrative I wrote about that time. Perhaps I'll post some of it here for you guys to check out. I swear that everything I wrote happened.

However, that is neither here nor there.

For every Huawei and DJI, there's a ton of companies that literally know they're cutting corners and do not give a fuck. I occasionally get asked by people to do product descriptions and help them with amazon.com marketing strategy.

I always say "no" for a number of reasons.

1. They do not want to pay good money for good work.

The average Chinese company is so cheap. They equate saving money with value. if you want to compete on the international level you absolutely need to deliver a good product. If you can't do that, then eventually everyone will catch on.

Why do you think Chinese products still have such a poor reputation? It's mostly deserved. China brags about being able to steal talent from the West by offering competitive salaries but they're often just stealing middle managers.

2. They want to cut corners 100% of the time.

I always tell them that I absolutely will not reach out to people and pay for product reviews. Amazon.com banned this practice years ago and you're an idiot if you think they can't find out.

I worked for a company that used Amazon as it's main revenue stream. At the time when amazon.com banned paid reviews, we held a huge 2-hour meeting and told everyone to cease and desist with the paid reviews.

Everyone nodded and smiled.

A week later our company's amazon.com page was shut down and frozen. We had no revenue coming in.

Turns out the sales team just ignored us and kept doing it.

Our CEO had to fly to amazon.com and beg to have our accounts re-opened.

I quit a few months after that but I was still friends with people working there.

This happened two more times before the CEO was fired and the company folded.

What I'm trying to illustrate here is that Chinese people often just smile in the face of the law because the law in China is such a shitshow that you can pay your way out of most things.

However, you try to apply that thinking to countries with laws and you will find yourself in a world of hurt. China is STILL learning this after decades of being "open" to the world.

This same shit happened back during the cultural revolution. Provincial governers were deathly afraid of losing their posts so they reported insanely high crop yields. It was obviously all bullshit to the people and the government, but they would sell their advance crop growing techniques to their friends in without telling them that the #s were fluffed.

The African dictators would try to get their people to apply these techniques and they'd have massive crop shortages, people would starve out and they'd be back at square one.

That sort of bullshit was happening 50 years ago and it's still happening in different ways today. The Chinese people have a fucking long way to go.

AGAIN, this goes back to enforcement. You cannot tell me they're going to suddenly morph all their industries like that over the next 10-20 years. You can't just brute force your way through social issues.

It's autistic to think otherwise.

They're in this predicament because they think you can regulate behavior out of humans and not actually work on changing the culture by incentivizing good behavior.

You just keep passing new laws on the same people and they just find more clever ways to avoid following them.

Sorry, but it will take more than having a bunch of empty skyscrapers, preying on the generosity of Western nations and tricking Africans before I really believe these guys are taking over.

You show me a change in the actual culture of these people and I will be quaking in my damn boots.

I'll put it like this:

If they recognize something as a problem, they absolutely will crush that problem. however, the issue is getting them to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place.

There is a very strong "good enough" culture in China.

There's a very famous story about that culture right here: http://www.michaeledits.com/close-enough.pdf

Honestly read that shit if you really want to understand this place.

Until they get that "this is good enough" bullshit out of their culture they will always struggle to be taken as seriously as they want.

You guys point to 6,000 dollar cars from China. I can tell you, point blank, those cars are 6,000 dollars for a reason. They're rickety death traps.

Sure you can get away with selling that shit to the poor nations that you abuse through debt usury, but you can only get so far with cheap junk.

You cannot build a world-class service economy (as they strive to do) with shitty products and I do not know why guys are even suggesting its possible.

Until they're able to truly regulate and enforce a rule of law that makes the population act in accordance with their grand wishes, the government is mostly fooling themselves.
05-16-2019 11:30 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  The reason China has such a large automotive industry is because of its own tariffs on imported cars make it unfeasible for most people to buy an imported car. The only people who can afford imported cars are the very rich buying top makes, like Maserati or Porsche, who don't manufacture in China. Even BMW, Land Rover, and Mercedes Benz produce cars for the Chinese market domestically: Usually they print the name of the joint venture domestic company that actually manufactured the car on the back in Chinese characters.

There's nothing wrong with supporting national developing industries with executive policies, it's natural and everyone does that. The reason America has such a large aviation industry is because of its own subsidies make it infeasible for other countries to develop their own airplanes. I haven't even begun on the soybeans, the arms industry, and everything else.

Every EU country to a varying degree, give out subsidies to its energy sector despite EU and G20 pledges to phase out energy subsidies since 2009. The British spend the most on fossil fuel subsidies than all other EU countries (£10.5bn). See for yourselves in https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/...IN&from=EN


(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  Domestic Chinese car brands are generally subpar, and only those who can't afford a domestically produced foreign make buys one.

I agree with you that the US government is no saint and screws over its own citizens, but the Chinese government is no saint either: As Fortis says, it has its own set of problems completely different from the US. Only those who have lived in China can actually tell you what the Chinese government is actually like. If China was a perfect society, nobody, especially not the rich, would be clamoring to get their kids an Anglosphere college degree and second passport.

No one says China is a perfect society and we all know the US is not a saint either. Hitting strawmen targets can only go so far to pretend being objective. I've lived in China too, I've seen 50-car tail crashes from mechanical failure that got covered up. I know the urban management squads (called chengguan, a semi-law enforcement team that bullies powerless citizens to comply with weird regulations) wreck households. But these things happen in a lot of places and the only reason China gets disproportionate flak over this is that neocons say China is taking over the world in their endless bid to create threats for America.

Every country has its fair share of wealthy people hiding shady money. Ever heard of the UBS? Thousands of rich folk all over the world evade taxes hit the UBS each year, every now and then you hear it being fined by US/UK/France/Germany/Belgium for assisting tax evasion. And it's not just UBS either.

People get Anglosphere college degrees are because their kids are smart enough to get into those universities. I thought it's normal people want to get the best education when they have the means to? Or is it only a Chinese phenomenon? You sure make it sound like it's only them doing it.

And before you hammier on the second passport thing again, you should be reminded on how many people on this forum are not living in their own countries anymore, for the girls, for the money, for a better life generally. You'd bet a lot of liberals would get a Scandinavian/Swiss passport as well if we don't have a tight emigration policy and Scandinavia/SW have lax immigration.

But Taobao is a big cheap shithole. They take advantage on foreigners who can't speak Chinese. I can pretend to be a local because I know Chinese, but the expat community gets shammed every damn time. They're trying to do away with low quality shit with Made in China 2025, but I don't think they can manage that in 2025. More like 2050 (no guarantees whatsoever), when I have become an old bum and it's no longer my job to worry about international matters.

(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  @911 I see that you live in Canada. If you are in a major city especially Vancouver, you will see first hand how the Chinese diaspora operates and how Anglo white Canadians feel about the massive Chinese population. Apparently, they have an excellent track record of assimilation into white Canadian society, are super welcoming towards their white neighbors, sharing each others culture while living side-by-side in harmony.

Sarcasm aside, imagine how the Chinese diaspora situation in Vancouver or Sydney on a much bigger scale: This is what you, as a foreigner, will be looking at in a potential Chinese dominated world, or a potential Chinese vassal state.

And while the Chinese will not subject themselves to hardcore SJWism anytime soon, if a SJW historically white country like Canada somehow falls under their vassalage/suzerainty, by stating "non-interference" in domestic politics, they'll simply egg on the SJWs, perhaps even by suggesting that there can be 10 bathrooms instead of 5. As long as they toe Beijing's line when it comes to geopolitics and don't interfere with Chinese interests or the Chinese diaspora's shenanigans in said country, the Chinese will stand back if not egg the local elite on as it commits national suicide of its own people.

As this old saying goes: Be careful for what you wish for.

That's unsubstantiated fearmongering if I ever see one. And I thought "non-interference" is one of the reasons why many of us want Trump in and soldiers out of the Middle East, you know, it's not doing good for anyone.

While it's highly likely no other country will treat Canada as the US, I highly doubt the possibility of Canada becoming a big Vancouver if China ever gets into the US position, and there's no way they can get to that position without 50 years' effort with no serious fuckups. For every Chinese non-assimilation I can give you an opposite example: East coast Asians for one. Those guys are as assimilated as one can be, and it's not like they are flipping back. That's because these are 2nd/3rd gen Asian Americans, a lot of Chinese in Vancouver are 1st immigrants, naturally their kids are more likely to assimilate with the locals. Do 1st gen expats usually assimilate into the local culture? For sure I don't.

As the old saying goes: be careful of what you say. You're playing identity politics on an international scale.
05-17-2019 06:47 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-17-2019 06:47 AM)Hansel Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  The reason China has such a large automotive industry is because of its own tariffs on imported cars make it unfeasible for most people to buy an imported car. The only people who can afford imported cars are the very rich buying top makes, like Maserati or Porsche, who don't manufacture in China. Even BMW, Land Rover, and Mercedes Benz produce cars for the Chinese market domestically: Usually they print the name of the joint venture domestic company that actually manufactured the car on the back in Chinese characters.

There's nothing wrong with supporting national developing industries with executive policies, it's natural and everyone does that. The reason America has such a large aviation industry is because of its own subsidies make it infeasible for other countries to develop their own airplanes. I haven't even begun on the soybeans, the arms industry, and everything else.

Every EU country to a varying degree, give out subsidies to its energy sector despite EU and G20 pledges to phase out energy subsidies since 2009. The British spend the most on fossil fuel subsidies than all other EU countries (£10.5bn). See for yourselves in https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/...IN&from=EN


(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  Domestic Chinese car brands are generally subpar, and only those who can't afford a domestically produced foreign make buys one.

I agree with you that the US government is no saint and screws over its own citizens, but the Chinese government is no saint either: As Fortis says, it has its own set of problems completely different from the US. Only those who have lived in China can actually tell you what the Chinese government is actually like. If China was a perfect society, nobody, especially not the rich, would be clamoring to get their kids an Anglosphere college degree and second passport.

No one says China is a perfect society and we all know the US is not a saint either. Hitting strawmen targets can only go so far to pretend being objective. I've lived in China too, I've seen 50-car tail crashes from mechanical failure that got covered up. I know the urban management squads (called chengguan, a semi-law enforcement team that bullies powerless citizens to comply with weird regulations) wreck households. But these things happen in a lot of places and the only reason China gets disproportionate flak over this is that neocons say China is taking over the world in their endless bid to create threats for America.

Every country has its fair share of wealthy people hiding shady money. Ever heard of the UBS? Thousands of rich folk all over the world evade taxes hit the UBS each year, every now and then you hear it being fined by US/UK/France/Germany/Belgium for assisting tax evasion. And it's not just UBS either.

People get Anglosphere college degrees are because their kids are smart enough to get into those universities. I thought it's normal people want to get the best education when they have the means to? Or is it only a Chinese phenomenon? You sure make it sound like it's only them doing it.

And before you hammier on the second passport thing again, you should be reminded on how many people on this forum are not living in their own countries anymore, for the girls, for the money, for a better life generally. You'd bet a lot of liberals would get a Scandinavian/Swiss passport as well if we don't have a tight emigration policy and Scandinavia/SW have lax immigration.

But Taobao is a big cheap shithole. They take advantage on foreigners who can't speak Chinese. I can pretend to be a local because I know Chinese, but the expat community gets shammed every damn time. They're trying to do away with low quality shit with Made in China 2025, but I don't think they can manage that in 2025. More like 2050 (no guarantees whatsoever), when I have become an old bum and it's no longer my job to worry about international matters.

(05-14-2019 02:20 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  @911 I see that you live in Canada. If you are in a major city especially Vancouver, you will see first hand how the Chinese diaspora operates and how Anglo white Canadians feel about the massive Chinese population. Apparently, they have an excellent track record of assimilation into white Canadian society, are super welcoming towards their white neighbors, sharing each others culture while living side-by-side in harmony.

Sarcasm aside, imagine how the Chinese diaspora situation in Vancouver or Sydney on a much bigger scale: This is what you, as a foreigner, will be looking at in a potential Chinese dominated world, or a potential Chinese vassal state.

And while the Chinese will not subject themselves to hardcore SJWism anytime soon, if a SJW historically white country like Canada somehow falls under their vassalage/suzerainty, by stating "non-interference" in domestic politics, they'll simply egg on the SJWs, perhaps even by suggesting that there can be 10 bathrooms instead of 5. As long as they toe Beijing's line when it comes to geopolitics and don't interfere with Chinese interests or the Chinese diaspora's shenanigans in said country, the Chinese will stand back if not egg the local elite on as it commits national suicide of its own people.

As this old saying goes: Be careful for what you wish for.

That's unsubstantiated fearmongering if I ever see one. And I thought "non-interference" is one of the reasons why many of us want Trump in and soldiers out of the Middle East, you know, it's not doing good for anyone.

While it's highly likely no other country will treat Canada as the US, I highly doubt the possibility of Canada becoming a big Vancouver if China ever gets into the US position, and there's no way they can get to that position without 50 years' effort with no serious fuckups. For every Chinese non-assimilation I can give you an opposite example: East coast Asians for one. Those guys are as assimilated as one can be, and it's not like they are flipping back. That's because these are 2nd/3rd gen Asian Americans, a lot of Chinese in Vancouver are 1st immigrants, naturally their kids are more likely to assimilate with the locals. Do 1st gen expats usually assimilate into the local culture? For sure I don't.

As the old saying goes: be careful of what you say. You're playing identity politics on an international scale.

Typical and just like a Muslim. You get a chicom in the corner and instead of admitting fault he deflects.

I think what needs to be discussed in more detail are the throngs of Chicom state security trolls infiltrating English speaking online communities trying to cover Xi's rear end and their culture of good enough. Several places I visit online became an insufferable mess with trolls like this until Trump kicked the Chicoms in their collective nuts. They've all gone and hidden now because they can't handle a little loss of face.

How many social credit points did that post earn you?

Unfortunately, it won't earn you very much here. I suggest you read the subforum rules.
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2019 10:35 AM by The Beast1.)
05-17-2019 10:25 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-14-2019 12:23 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  Don't underestimate the Chinese. A lot of their products are not available widely in the US (Huawei cell phones, Rexton cars, etc. ) but they aren't as bad as some people think. Probably analogous to Hyundai cars 25 years ago and rapidly improving.
There is a reason why people consider them the greatest threat to US dominance.

I really do hear what you are saying and admire the Chinese ability to reverse engineer everything from Cell Phones, Bicycles, Land Rovers to Stealth Jet Fighters and our Trident Nuclear Ballistic Submarines and Mao's Long March Missiles not to mention our Aegis anti Missile Cruisers and Hypersonic Anti Everything Missiles.

And Confuscious Spirit only knows what they have done with our Area 51 etc, ARV technologies. I worked in a Major R&D Uni in Boston as a Cyber Security lead analyst.

Metro Boston has this phenomenon of Euro Kids - kids from wealthy families around the world who are very fond of major Euro Fashion Designers as a subtle way to exhibit their wealth DHV for men and SMV for Women.

The Euro Kids were originally wealthy students from Europe, the Middle East, and South America - more recently it is Indus Region and mostly Mainland Chinese with a few middle east, some Japanese and quite a few South Koreans... and of course Rich South Americans even richer selling Natural Resources to the Mainland Chinese. Mainland Chinese love Boston Unis so much they lead the recent Anti-Asian Racists lawsuit against the once invulnerable Harvard University for capping its "Asian" student body Undergrad and Grads at 25% - How dare this University founded on "China Trade" wealth discriminate against the Sons and some Daughters of the Communist Red Chinese predatory capitalists - China Trade in reverse is the ultimate in ironies.

Point is the more the Chinese go rogue - the more that Japan, South Korea, and Germany/EU will step up their game and they secretly support Uber Patriot Trump as they subscribe to the same intellectual property Patents, Copyrights and Trademarks protective laws that the USA does - and - Trump's corrective interview of XI, the CCP and Communist Inscrutable Freaking Red Chinese benefit the Japan, Germany and South Korea etc, more so as they are leaders in today's Global Knowledge Technologies based economy.

The fact that no one in the China Loving CFR controlled MSM speaks about is the USA's Major Global Market advantages only become more evident;

1. Business Contracts based upon the rule of law rather than graft and corruption networks (China/Russia etc).

2. Unlimited Land to build cutting edge state of the art AI/Robotic factories.

3. Unlimited Energy Resources included newer Renewable Energy and Backup power systems.

4. Unlimited Demand USA and Globally for best in class Quality and Reliability in all products and services these factories and Corporate Office Complexes in both USA based and foreign-based Corporations will continue to explode the growth of Competitive International Free, Fair, and Reciprocal trade worldwide.

Brilliant Steve More Interview regarding current China trade negotiations... he laughs at the idea that China can destabilize the USA by selling US Treasury Bills... Our T Bills pay a highly desirable interest rate compared to Global Banks that offer mere Zero Interest Rates or worse NEGATIVE Interest Rates - the fact is that there is an enormous free market global demand for actual interest bearing T Bills backed by the full faith and credit of the USA.




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"You do not have to be a perfect person to be a perfect PATRIOT!"

Official Whitehouse.gov President Donald John Trump's real achievements: https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-adminis...lishments/

Communist Freaking Red China's Plan to Undermine the USA and the West:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/up...18-PDF.pdf

The Naked Communists 45 Goals for the USA:
http://www.restoring-america.com/Documen...0NOTES.pdf
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-16-2019 11:30 PM)Fortis Wrote:  ...
You cannot build a world-class service economy (as they strive to do) with shitty products and I do not know why guys are even suggesting its possible.

Until they're able to truly regulate and enforce a rule of law that makes the population act in accordance with their grand wishes, the government is mostly fooling themselves.

Those are good anecdotes to get a feel for how things on the ground are, but I think we have to return to the core questions. Even with the cost cutting and short term money grubbing, do they have the potential to dominate the industries of the future laid out in the Made in China 2025 plan? Given all the shit they've been through over the past century, is their society strong enough to withstand a major downturn in case of a protracted trade war?

Remember, there is no perfect country. Every time someone says why China is going to collapse or lose bigly to other countries, they have to weigh it against all the positive and negative factors impacting their main competitors - we have various threads thoroughly documenting all the challenges the US will have over the next decade, even without any conflict with China.
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(05-16-2019 08:22 PM)911 Wrote:  Trump is mostly right about his tough approach to trade with China, they've had their way too long, aided by the fact that American globalists like the Rockefellers, Waltons and Desmarais were cashing in on gutting their countries' industrial heartlands and outsourcing to China.

There is a lot of ground to make up there, this phenomenon has been in place since the 1980s/90s, but a national industrial policy is a good thing, better late than never. The problem however now is that the industrial and trade agenda is almost overshadowed by the budding global geopolitical superpower rivalry, so there is a whole different dynamic there than say, negotiating trade with the EU or Japan.


(05-14-2019 10:26 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 08:55 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm expected to believe they'll be competing with German and Japanese quality standards but they can't even properly manage to put a package on a doorstep without fucking that up tremendously 20% of the time?

It's my understanding that the Japanese in the 50's and somewhat into the 60's had bad quality on their exports.

It's also my understanding that South Korea a few decades ago had really bad quality control problems as well.

Both the Japanese and South Koreans seem to be doing really good now and have been doing good for some time; especially given where they were not too long ago (relatively speaking).

Is there anything to indicate that China won't have relative rapid improvement in their business practices and quality control standards like Japan and South Korea?

Japan had a cultural tradition of fine craftsmanship and group cohesion. They also looked up to American industry, studying and applying the quality control science from American leaders like William Edwards Deming, perfecting this system. Deming was far more known and revered in Japan than he ever was in America.

Fortis is right about the Chinese corner-cutting/free for all money grab mentality. They've also had an ancient tradition of fine craftsmanship, in fact the Chinese invented standardized mass production, along with the Benedictine monks in medieval Europe (though the Chinese operations were larger). That mastery was behind the early Chinese empire, through for instance the development of mass-produced metal crossbows with standardized parts and design. But that tradition was lost with the communists, who have purged their bourgeoisie and its heritage. They're slowly rebuilding it, through corporate organizations like Huawei that have been fostering across the board excellence.



I have absolutely no clue about international trade. But I have some experience with buying certain things from China and Asia - namely - guitars.

Some of you may find this interesting. It is related to what you are talking about. I'll be going just from memory here so may get a few details wrong, but it will still illustrate the wider point I am making:

Houses rise and fall


Back in the 50's there was this American company called 'Fender'. They produced the first Stratocaster in '54. They were American designed and made. They were on the whole pretty superb guitars. Then the company would sell out to CBS about a decade later and quality control went downhill. Pre-CBS guitars can easily go for 20-30K dollars these days.

Partly because of their rarity and re-sale value, but partly because one in decent condition is still one of the best examples of this instrument that can be found - to play, the sound of it.

When CBS took over it was what all that takeover stuff was about: profit, cutting corners, loss of previous expertise. They weren't bad guitars, but they weren't as good. Then they became quite shoddy...

The Japanese being the cheeky buggers they are decided to do a knock-off of the Stratocaster. In the beginning they weren't so good, but after a little while, those clever and industrious Japanese presented the Fender company with a problem - they were producing guitars of a much more noticably higher quality and at a cheaper price!

Something had to be done.

Enter the fabled 'lawsuit' era. There was not lawsuit as such but there was probably a 'cease and desist'. They sort of came to a Gentleman's agreement. Ok, you can keep on copying our guitars, but you can't copy the headstock. We will consider that copyright infringement and we will sue. So to this day, whenever you buy a Fender copy (unless it is by Squier which is owned by Fender) it will always have a slightly different shaped headstock. The same for all guitars in fact, not just Fender.

Basically the Japanese had created a nice little industry for themselves by taking other's ideas and bettering them, if not in design, then at least manufacturing quality. It was cheeky but it paid off. It was the wild west back then when it came to global guitar manufacture.

So good were the Japanese in fact, and so unable were the Americans to match the quality at that price point, the Fender company said 'fuck it' - let's just get the Japs to make the guitars for us, and we'll stick our badge on the top, and we'll all get a cut and make a nice profit.

A fine example of outsourcing your manufacturing base, but more for necessity rather than greed. The Americans for whatever reason just couldn't keep up with the pace of progress being made at that time. Automation was coming in as well don't forget, even late 70', early 80's - automation is always 'coming in' - see the precursor to the computer: the Jacquard Loom.

https://mccarlgallery.wordpress.com/2013...-computer/

Some of those guitars made in that era are considered up there with the best ever manufactured. I owned one myself. It was a Squier with 'made by FENDER' on the headstock. They stopped that after a while because people who had paid 300 bucks more for the Fender name didn't think someone who paid 300 bucks less should get to join the exclusive party. Maybe they thought it made their guitars sound worse, who knows...

It was a great guitar. Even today they go for about 600 quid plus if you can find a good one - an '81 Squier Strat made in Japan. If you like this sort of thing, this is a good link: https://planetbotch.blogspot.com/2011/12...trats.html


But still those other pesky Japs wanted in on the act and other companies like Tokai started making copies. Again, considered to be among the best of the class. Today they go for high prices. They aren't all superb of course, but many are very good. Guitars are built in batches. You get good ones and you get bad ones.

Guitar provenance itself is a very murky world. I've researched it quite a bit along with some others. It's confused by the fact that most often companies do not tell you what country your guitar is made in. Some companies like Ibanez don't even make guitars, they just license the name and build most of them in a Japanese factory. Well, more like the factory just builds the guitars and puts the Ibanez name on them. See Hoshino Gakki. This company is over a century old.

After a little while you had a few factories set up to manufacture guitars to a very high standard, like Matsumoko, in Matsumoto. More famously known for the Aria Pro II brand name. Today these guitars can go for very good prices, even the lesser known brand names built there like Westone. Incredible guitars to play and in sound, and even with a few innovations thrown in for good measure.

Fender pretty much turned a blind eye as they were turning a profit and I guess they thought imitation is the best form of flattery as long as it didn't effect their bottom line.


But it wasn't just the Japanese that wanted in on the act.

A guitar is a relatively simple thing to make. It's also something that will always sell.

If you want to see what an up and coming industrial nation is, then look at the ones making the best guitars for the cheapest price. It's leveled out a bit now with saturation of the guitar market and a drop in overall sales, but it was certainly true back then and up to relatively recently.

The next country that wanted in on the act was Korea. They undercut the cost of guitars made in Japan which by now were creeping up in price because of their higher status (they were no longer looked upon as 'cheap'). But if you supply a better product for even just a slightly better price, human nature dictates that people will buy it. Again, the guitars weren't great to start with, but pretty soon those Korean guitars were 'good enough' and the 'price was right'.

But as the quality crept up along with the price and with higher labour costs (don't forget these industries work off practically slave labour - dangerous conditions for peasant wages), other countries again decided they wanted a piece of the pie.

Next up was Indonesia. A few rich people put the capital in to tooling costs, they cut down a few trees and went at it. Fuck the poor sods breathing in all those nasty paint fumes and lacquer. Same as it ever was.

Houses rise and fall

Are you beginning to notice a pattern here?


Nowadays any cheap guitar you buy will still be made in either Indonesia or Korea and with better quality models being built in Japan. In fact, Japan is now known for making the best instruments on the planet. The Aria Pro II company that is still going makes guitars in Korea and Indonesia, but it also makes them in Japan, doing high end models that sell for as much as a real Fender, but better quality, some say. I've even caught them making a Super-Strat in Japan that is terrible quality, so they make cheap guitars there as well as expensive ones. Actually I managed to get it up to speed in no time, but it's probably the worst example of a guitar set up I've ever experienced.

Moral of this story? Even the Japs have their quality control issues. And even the Japs outsource their manufacture to countries that can undercut the wages they would have to pay to 'craftsmen' for high quality work.

I can tell you, there are some seriously good guitar makers in Indonesia. It's mostly one factory actually, and they even make Fenders there! But don't tell anyone. Fender don't!

Guitars (like a lot of things) are made in batches remember. Sometimes you just want to get them out the door and start a new batch.

But what about China? Didn't they get in on the lucrative guitar market I hear you ask. Yes, they did. In fact, I just unboxed one I bought last year. It's a Squier (Fender) Stratocaster from the mid '90's I believe. Around the time when Fender started manufacturing them there.

This guitar is absolutely superb. The neck, the hardware, the paint job (though it's chipped and looks reliced now) and most of all the Pick ups. As any guitar bod will tell you the pups are always where manufacturers cut corners, but not here. This is a guitar that cries out: I want you to take me seriously. I want to show to you that I am as good as any other guitar made by Fender/Squier anywhere else in the world. And it does.

The pick ups on this guitar are among the highest quality I have ever heard on any instrument. It's not hard to build a good pick up, but it's easy to cut corners and build a cheap one. Usually by underwinding them which makes them sound shrill. It only saves a few cents, but it's a common bugbear with cheap instruments.

I also have another almost identical Red Strat made in China that cost me like 60 quid. It's also a superb guitar for the money. Really, I love it. And guess what? The pick ups on that sound pretty good too! You can hardly even buy a set of pups for 60 quid, so how did that whole guitar get made for that price and transported to this country?

Fender are still making guitars in China today I believe. They did up until very recently anyway. They are very good guitars.

With advances in automation it's not hard to build a good guitar today. CNC machines get programmed and years of knowing what works gives the experience to provide a very good instrument for not very much money. Stuff like painting them though and quality control is still done by hand and human. They will probably automate the painting soon if they haven't already. Quality control will always need to be done by humans.

Most higher quality cheaper guitars however seem to be built in Indonesia where they are happy to turn a bit more of a blind eye to the slave labour and working conditions. Pay your workers less, turn more profit. Eradicate your workers as much as you can via automation, turn more profit again. But QC has to be maintained, and this is where corners are cut if the strict oversight is not there.

I thought about getting some of my designs made up there, but I decided against it. Too much hassle. Fender and big companies can ensure quality control as it is vital to their brand image. I mean, no one is going to buy a guitar with 'Made in China' on it if it isn't at least as good as any other one (for the price).

And I'd only be getting a batch of a few dozen made up maybe, if that. Too much risk.


In the end it comes down to shipping costs and available markets.

Just like those workers who sang about being good enough to weave the cloth on those aforementioned looms, but not 'good' (i.e. rich) enough to wear it (i.e. buy it), many of these people making these instruments would never be able to afford the price they go for in a Western Country (including Australia and NZ).

So if you can have access to certain markets at favourable tariffs then you are on a gold mine. The guitars are cheap and easy to make. Just chop down a few more trees. Pay slave wages via an economy where people are purposely left in poverty. Profit.

However...

Have that access taken away or get asked for a bit too much of a percentage of the profits (tax), and I guess you find yourself in the position we are all discussing here. The one I don't understand!

The very one America and China seem to be squabblng over at the moment.

The way I see it and to my naive understanding, China has had it pretty good for quite a while now. They don't give a shit about using slave labour and only care about profit. If you don't keep the whip hand on them QC goes down.

They've been give access to a pretty decent portion of the pie and they probably should have been pulled up a bit more before about it. After all, if they don't want to make those guitars, South Korea and Indonesia are quite happy to take up the slack!


There are still many unscrupulous factories in China that make up what is known as 'Chibson' guitars. Gibson knock-offs. They use the exact same headstock and logo. They are illegal to import to America, though not illegal to own. They are sub-par even though they are very cheap (coupla hundred bucks). Then again, Gibson don't exactly have good QC either. That's for another thread.

Fender make guitars all over the place - China, Mexico and even the US!.
The ones from China are made by Chinese. The ones in Mexico are made by Mexicans. The ones in the US are made by Mexicans. So the old joke goes. I don't know. I'm sure a few Americans work there.


And then we come to Behringer...

A German company, ripping off out-of-patent designs by Japanese companies and getting them made in China in a bespoke factory. Actually a 'city' they built that employs thousands.

It's more like the wild west than it's ever been in mass-scale manufacture, and all these trade wars and 'squabbling' will only get more intense. As automation takes hold more and more, human rights need to be seen to be being observed, and markets get cut off from those who are on the naughty step (see Iran and their sanctions).

It provides a dangerous breeding ground for things to get quickly out of hand with tit-for-tat repercussions.


All wars are banker wars.
05-17-2019 06:16 PM
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