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The Trump China Policy Thread
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TigerMandingo Offline
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Post: #501
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Exactly. But it is also important to note that the American people aren’t innocent in all of this, and just as complicit. They voted in Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Obama and chose Walmarts over healthy communities.
08-12-2019 08:25 AM
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It_is_my_time
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Post: #502
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-11-2019 09:38 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Hong Kong protesters singing the USA anthem.


Imagine being so blue pilled that you think the Hong Kong protestors are the good guys in this situation.

That's totally wrong, the protestors are liberals who want to legalise gay marriage and fully embrace Globo-Homo like Taiwan recently did. HK and Taiwan are both dominated by liberal forces who mainly oppose the CCP not because they are "right wing nationalist anti-communists" but because they want sodomy, pornography, and (gay) democracy. They don't like the CCP because it is illiberal and authoritarian (red pilled), they want to have their gay democracy and their right to be degenerate hedonists with no societal moral standards like that exist in mostly conservative mainland China. That's the main reason they are protesting.

Pro-Beijing parties are actually conservative, traditional, and Nationalist. China is fully in its rights to annex HK completely, Hong Kong is ethnic Chinese territory and there's no reason for it to be quasi-independent, kind of similar to Crimea and Russia. HK doesn't have the same geopolitical significance as Ukraine of course so its mostly symbolic, and the (((CIA/National Endowment for Democracy))) involvement is not quite as big as it is in the former Soviet states.

To be sure, the Chinese government is far from perfect and has its own problems, but compared to the West it is better governed. It is fundamentally socially conservative, nationalist, and looks out for Chinese national interests.

There's no reason for based and redpilled people to support the Hong Kong protestors.
08-12-2019 10:16 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-12-2019 10:16 AM)Knight of Malta Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 09:38 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Hong Kong protesters singing the USA anthem.


Imagine being so blue pilled that you think the Hong Kong protestors are the good guys in this situation.

That's totally wrong, the protestors are liberals who want to legalise gay marriage and fully embrace Globo-Homo like Taiwan recently did. HK and Taiwan are both dominated by liberal forces who mainly oppose the CCP not because they are "right wing nationalist anti-communists" but because they want sodomy, pornography, and (gay) democracy. They don't like the CCP because it is illiberal and authoritarian (red pilled), they want to have their gay democracy and their right to be degenerate hedonists with no societal moral standards like that exist in mostly conservative mainland China. That's the main reason they are protesting.

Pro-Beijing parties are actually conservative, traditional, and Nationalist. China is fully in its rights to annex HK completely, Hong Kong is ethnic Chinese territory and there's no reason for it to be quasi-independent, kind of similar to Crimea and Russia. HK doesn't have the same geopolitical significance as Ukraine of course so its mostly symbolic, and the (((CIA/National Endowment for Democracy))) involvement is not quite as big as it is in the former Soviet states.

To be sure, the Chinese government is far from perfect and has its own problems, but compared to the West it is better governed. It is fundamentally socially conservative, nationalist, and looks out for Chinese national interests.

There's no reason for based and redpilled people to support the Hong Kong protestors.

Where the hell should I start?

What I see here is a total lack of understanding of why and how everything ended up what its like today in HK, and its relationship with China, and the role it plays for China.

1. HK is not Crimea. And while its less geopolitically important, it is much, MUCH more important for the global economy. The Asia Pacific headquarters of most foreign companies (US or otherwise) are in Hong Kong. The overseas headquarters of all Chinese SOEs and Chinese firms in general are also in Hong Kong. It is the world's #3 finance and banking center right after London and NYC. Overall, the stakes are MUCH higher in Hong Kong than in Crimea.

2. Hong Kong is really important for China. For the above reasons, it is an indispensable conduit for China with the rest of the world. There are no Chinese cities that is a separate customs and immigration territory, runs on a common law system, and has uncensored internet. Furthermore, China is subject to tariffs abroad and also imposes tariffs on foreign companies in China. Likewise, the yuan is NOT freely convertible. Hong Kong is not subject to any tariffs, doesn't impose tariffs, and the Hong Kong Dollar is freely convertible. Hong Kong also uses common law arbitration for business disputes that both Mainland and Western companies need as well. In a nutshell, China needs Hong Kong to get around all kinds of restrictions.

3. To turn HK into a Mainland city, China will lose all of its advantages AND get sanctions imposed on it. The last thing China wants to be is turn into an autarky, especially with the ongoing trade war.

4. Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese but its hard for them to identify with the PRC, even harder than Taiwanese. The culture of Hong Kong is fundamentally as an outpost of the British Empire in China. To this day, it is likely the most British place outside of the UK. Even the HK local govt itself, inept as it is, is a holdover of colonial times. At the moment, PRC values are incongruent with Hong Kong values. Anyone who has been to both places would know that stepping into Hong Kong from anywhere in the Mainland feels like you are instantly in a foreign country, and vice versa. The infrastructure, linguistic situation, down to the uniforms of customs officials and the general culture is different. If anything, Taiwan feels less foreign from the Mainland than Hong Kong. To give you an idea, only about half of Hong Kong is able to speak good Mandarin.

Integrating Hong Kong with the Mainland will not only require massive changes to Hong Kong's culture, way of life and social hierarchy, but also the Mainland will have to completely re-evaluate how they engage with the world.

5. The pro-Beijing camp are a disunited bunch with significant infighting. There is the pro-business parties who are just pro-status quo and doing business with the Mainland, there are the trade unions who sympathize with the Communists, there are underground CCP members, there are just people who want stability, and finally there are some redpilled Chinese nationalists.

6. The social situation in Hong Kong. This is an overtouristed Dickensian place. The economy failed to diversify into healthcare, IT, or advanced manufacturing. Low cost labor intensive work has moved into Mainland China long ago. Rent is THE highest in the world, with middle class families packed into 30 square meters. Your average middle class single has to live with parents. Streets are packed 24/7, people live like rats, and majority of restaurants have a permanent line out by the door.

7. Cross border retail tourism has really strained infrastructure, directly denting quality of life. Stores that used to cater to locals now cater to Mainlanders. This disproportionately affects locals in working class and lower middle class areas near the border.

8. Hong Kong's political system is designed in a way that the elite tycoons, all of whom have secondary passports in the Anglosphere and whose main cash cow is Mainland China in fact, blatantly control the government in plain sight.

9. China doesn't see itself as a based and redpill country that you disgruntled Westerners so badly want it to be. The CCP itself actually believes in Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and it is fundamentally a Communist country, just reformed appropriately to get on with the times and stay in power. It has its own agenda, namely to stay in power: Chinese nationalist rhetoric in China is just a tactic to shore up and maintain power. In fact, the late USSR under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Andropov was very much "based and redpilled" too.

Overall, those riots in Hong Kong are what you get when you have an out of touch elite that completely ignores public opinion: the middle class youth in Hong Kong have been completely, and utterly failed by the system. The situation is much more like the GJ France if anything. Except the youth have "democracy" as a blind ideology to fight for, and the HKPF and the CCP, rightfully or wrongfully, as their scapegoats.

Not everything is US = Bad. China = Good. The world is a lot more nuanced than that.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 11:52 AM by Aquarius.)
08-12-2019 11:49 AM
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WalterBlack Offline
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Post: #504
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-12-2019 06:29 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  ^

Lol!

Those Hong Kong protests are totally not sponsored by the CIA, US State department and the usual's ...

Shanghai Newspaper Accuses American NGOs of Supporting Hong Kong Protests


Quote:Xinmin Evening News, a Shanghai metro paper put out by the Chinese Communist Party Shanghai Municipal Committee, published an article on July 13 asserting that American NGOs plotted recent demonstrations in Hong Kong against a controversial extradition bill. The article, entitled “Cultivating ‘Hong Kong Independence’ Elements and Masterminding Anti-China Incidents . . . [We] Strip Away the ‘Painted Skin’ of These American NGOs,” names the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and the Open Society Foundations (OSF) in particular as helping organize the demonstrations from behind the scenes. (“Painted skin” is a metaphorical Chinese expression describing an attractive appearance that masks an evil face and cruel nature.) Its publication comes weeks after large protests began rattling the territory. Hong Kong authorities have labeled the demonstrators as rioters.

The Xinmin article warns that “although U.S. NGOs are ostensibly not government organizations, in reality they cannot cut off ties with the U.S. government, businesses, or the religious community,” and that China can neither “lower its guard against American NGOs, nor treat them purely as dangerous sourges. Management in accordance with the law is the key to letting in American NGOs that have a genuine desire to help China and not those that just want to cause chaos.” Citing Chinese government reports, Xinmin states that over 1,000 American NGOs have operated in mainland China since 1978, providing a total of 20 billion yuan (U.S.$2.9 billion) in funding. Noting that 82 percent of this funding has flowed into higher education institutions, research institutions, and government agencies—rather than civil society organizations—the article implies that foreign NGOs could even be infiltrating the government system itself.

The Xinmin news story focuses primarily on the NED. It accuses the NED of playing a role in Hong Kong protesters’ occupation of the territory’s Legislative Council on July 1, which it refers to as a “chaotic and damaging incident” planned and conducted by the opposition coalition in Hong Kong, “Hong Kong Independence” elements, and Western anti-China forces. The article claims that NED has supported every major protest in Hong Kong since 2003, and works to “cultivate backbone ‘Hong Kong Independence’” supporters, such as Joshua Wong. “The NED has become the biggest black hand affecting Hong Kong’s stability, causing far more harm than the ‘Hong Kong independence’ elements [visible] at the front of the stage.” The article further asserted that the NED’s activities in Hong Kong are mainly carried out by the National Democratic Institute and the American Center for International Labor Solidarity. According to the article, these organizations are two long-term funding sources for the Hong Kong Democratic Party as well as for non-profits such as SynergyNet and Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor.

The article went on to describe how the NED purportedly infiltrates China, facilitating long-term ideological transformation, by funding activities in China carried out by Chinese companies, academic institutions, the media, and other NGOs. But because the activities are carried out through private channels and operated under the guise of the market, they are “highly concealed,” the article says. “[The NED] frequently supports ‘democratic movements,’ ‘Tibet independence,’ ‘Xinjiang independence,’ and other forces in and outside China, directly interfering in China’s internal affairs.” Specifically, the article states that the NED was behind the 2008 Tibetan unrest and the 2009 riots in Urumqi, Xinjiang, two of the largest incidents of violence and ethnic clashes in China in recent years.

Citing Russian media, the article suggests that the NED has close ties with the CIA, even likening it to a “second CIA in the U.S.” “On the surface,” the article reads, “the NED is one of the two million non-governmental organizations in the United States, but senior officials of the foundation have government backgrounds or are inextricably linked to the U.S. government.” The article argues that because the NED provides funds annually to NGOs in Asia, Central and Eastern Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, Africa, and the countries of the former Soviet Union, the organization “conducts subvert activities or promotes ‘color revolutions’ in countries with which the U.S. doesn’t see eye to eye."

The Xinmin article also discussed the Open Society Foundations, a New York-based non-profit organization founded and chaired by the Hungarian-American investor George Soros. The article claims that OSF routinely exports Western ideology and values through supposedly non-political activities and played a role in “color revolutions” that occurred in Eastern European countries in recent decades. OSF, according to Xinmin, has been actively funding activities in Hong Kong in recent years and, like the NED, is focused on infiltrating the region’s universities.

Neither the NED nor the OSF has a formal presence in mainland China, through either a representative office or filed for temporary activities. Notably, the Foreign NGO Law, which regulates foreign NGO activity in mainland China, does not apply to Hong Kong; NGOs incorporated in Hong Kong must themselves go through the mechanisms provided in the Foreign NGO Law to work as a “foreign NGO” in the mainland.


(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 01:38 PM by WalterBlack.)
08-12-2019 01:31 PM
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Deepdiver Offline
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Post: #505
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-12-2019 08:16 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  China is a distraction from Trump telling his base the truth: manufacturing is NEVER coming back to the US. But this way he’s making it seem like he’s doing something about it.

Another case of Republicans and “conservatives” redirecting white votes into serving elite policy goals.

Some corrections are needed here - the USA is one of the world's largest manufacturers - whereas Mitt Romney made his fortune at Bain Capital buying up little family-owned 10% After-Tax Cash Cows across New England and the Rust Belt and moving them lock stock machinery and barrel to Chinese Industrial Parks - cutting EPA/OSHA and Labor Expenses to the bone turning these 10% Cash Cows into 50% profit engines that they then took public on the Shanghai and HK Exchanges at 60 to 100 times annual earnings versus the average of 15 to 20 times in the US markets. Bain/Romney and many others made billions moving 70,000 US Factories offshore during the past 20 years.

So what happened in the USA - Labor Prices Collapsed in 2008/09 and the Industrial Unions were gutted.

US Universities are full of Chinese Mainland Students diligently studying all facets of STEM cutting edge technologies. Many look to earn their fortunes in the US Innovation Economy or at least exfiltrate their Chinese made fortunes to the USA

All that worthless factory real estate was put on sale with a flashing blue light special for pennies on the dollar and EU and Asean Manufacturers starving for Cheap Land, Cheap Energy and Cheap labor in a stable Rule of Law Country to do business in all took notice and have quietly been expanding their German and Japanese Robotic automated factories in the USA including huge Billion Dollar state of the art facilities manufacturing everything from medical devices to pharmaceuticals, high tech equipment to just about every major brand of EU and SEA (Japan and SoKorea) Automobiles and new self driving trucks.

So these factories only need skilled sales and marketing, management and robotics and software engineers and a few semi-skilled laborers to feed the robots and assemble and test their final product - many of these workers are now salaried non-union and well paid due to the huge increase in quality and productivity from AI/ML Controlled Robotics Manufacturing.

This is likely the largest long term threat to workers in the USA, EU, Japan/SoKor and China and that is the rapid development of AI/ML and Robotics into both manufacturing, services and, transportation industries...

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(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 02:09 PM by Deepdiver.)
08-12-2019 01:56 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-11-2019 09:38 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Hong Kong protesters singing the USA anthem.


(08-12-2019 06:29 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  ^

Lol!

Those Hong Kong protests are totally not sponsored by the CIA, US State department and the usual's ...

You are mistaken Knjaz.

No one is paying these protestors to sign the American anthem. These Hong Kong'ers are giving a big fat "FUCK YOU" to China. They also are savvy internet youth who know people are spreading conspiracy theories that they are controlled by the USA (when in fact they hate China and prefer Western/US lifestyle more), so they are feeding into that image in order to cause as much international friction between the USA and China as possible.

Lots of conflict between the USA and China = freedom for HK. If China actually believes that the HK protestors are controlled by the USA, two things happen:

1. China is now extremely wary of using military force.
2. China continues to make heated rhetoric and accusations against the US, hurting US-Sino relations (which are already at a low point).

These protestors are going for max damage in any way possible, including getting major super powers to fight in each over it. They are fighting for "freedom", although I am unsure if HK Elites are just using these kids as useful idiots or not (probably are) but for the youth apparently this suits their interests better.

It's not a CIA movement. These HK protestors are being too obvious, they are trolling the shit out of everyone and it is damn hilarious. The funny chinese accent singing "rocket's red flare" is truly Laugh.

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(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 04:09 PM by Samseau.)
08-12-2019 04:08 PM
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Labienus Offline
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Post: #507
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
They are going to get ruthlessly crushed.

Tiananmen 2.0 incoming.
08-12-2019 10:00 PM
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Bienvenuto Offline
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Post: #508
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
I was born in Hong Kong and still have relatives out there that I talk to.

What I can tell you is that the students and protestors are HATED by many of the older HK Chinese generations and by large sections of Hong Kong Chinese society.
They are doing the equivalent of throwing eggs at a wall and just making life harder for the people around them in the process.

Harder on a daily commuter basis when everyone else is just trying to get to work and potentially harder in the future where they want to hold onto a one-country, two systems arrangement.

The CCP are seen as untrustworthy in everyone's view and there is anxiety about what the future holds but this to them is not the way to go about negotiating a different future. Chinese control of HK Is Only Ever Going One Way. No one is riding to the rescue. That accepted, why throw these silly tantrums that just help the CCP in their propaganda war?

Some people are old enough to remember the 1967 riots when 51 people were killed and bombs were let off. The CCP should be smart enough to remember that. The British weathered that quite easily, although.. not so easily for the police that had to deal with it first hand. The protestors were organised and underhand and vicious. A lot tougher than the Millenials on the streets today and the Brits did not have the resources that are currently in Hong Kong.

At that time HK was full of millions of Chinese, many of whom were coming by land and sea and whilst the leaders were the usual irresponsible intellectuals there was a huge underclass of desperate Chinese who could have joined in a conflagration. These people, many of them, lived on rowing boats in the various harbours or in doorways or at street level in actual cages, or chicken wire capsules, whatever you want to call it. There were 1000s of new dirt poor desperate Chinese coming across the border every week.
It could easily have gotten out of hand, but it was contained.
A bunch of smart phone wielding skinny fucks in hoodies throwing antifa style tantrums and the odd blinded protestor are not seen as particularly potent or awe-inspiring by those with memories.

HK has weathered many end-times hysterias, the SARS epidemic was treated like Ragnarok by many more excitable/ less industrious Chinese at the time. Others just laughed and got on with their business.

For many HK Chinese, especially the boomers.. When they see a bunch of twats shutting down an airport? For Fucks Sake.

I'd be interested to hear or see a more in depth analysis of the generational divide in these protests.
The Boomers of Hong Kong grew up in a 'blue period' the 1950's. Just like Singapore, tremendous squalor and poverty and no jobs. The boom times of the 60s were partly driven by the insane energy and hard work that they brought to the table. (granted, of course that would have gone nowhere without the trade winds in their direction)
I would argue that they are different from the Boomers of the west in that regard.

I accept that there are many sides to this and that HK protestors may have legitimate grievances however.. its interesting how these things get blown up by the media.
I know an SJW who was out there for the last round - Jesus H Christ; you would have thought that he was present in Cloverfield or the Living Dead. Our Brave correspondent in the final hours of Hong Kong..

Meanwhile my godfather is bitching about these fuckwits making his journey to work twice as long and his HK Chinese friends are bemoaning the childish behaviour of this drama-queen young generation.
The Western media seemed no different from a melodramatic SJW trying to pump up his FB profile.

I wouldn't be surprised if the CCP are actually fairly unconcerned at this point. I think they will win the propaganda war if they just let these guys run around and run out of steam, whilst alienating the wider HK society that they are relying on for support.
08-12-2019 10:40 PM
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Knight of Malta Offline
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Quote:To turn HK into a Mainland city, China will lose all of its advantages AND get sanctions imposed on it. The last thing China wants to be is turn into an autarky, especially with the ongoing trade war.

Hong Kong's economic significance and importance for China has declined, it's no longer necessary as a conduit and losing those economic benefits would not be that big of a loss to China.

Quote:Overall, those riots in Hong Kong are what you get when you have an out of touch elite that completely ignores public opinion: the middle class youth in Hong Kong have been completely, and utterly failed by the system. The situation is much more like the GJ France if anything. Except the youth have "democracy" as a blind ideology to fight for, and the HKPF and the CCP, rightfully or wrongfully, as their scapegoats.

Certainly the protestors have other motivating factors like economic hardships, however the fact is they are being used to advance a cause that is not good and is being manipulated by foreign powers. From what you described it sounds like the naive youth are buying into the whole "liberal democracy" propaganda just like many youth in Ukraine, Russia, and Eastern Europe. Just like in Ukraine, many of the people who turned up to the Maidan may have had some legitimate grievances and good intentions because of the extreme corruption and economic mismanagement, but they were obviously cynically used by foreign powers which were advancing their own geopolitical aims. Considering that support for democracy and the general pro-Western attitude among young people tends to go hand in hand with the Globo-Homo cultural narrative (and the exact scenario has been played out in the former Soviet Union with the predictable results), mainland Chinese are right to be concerned about it.

Quote:Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese but its hard for them to identify with the PRC, even harder than Taiwanese. The culture of Hong Kong is fundamentally as an outpost of the British Empire in China.

They are all ethnically Chinese, which is more important than culture. It is inevitable that as China becomes more powerful it reasserts control over HK as it is an ethnic Chinese territory.

Quote:The CCP itself actually believes in Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and it is fundamentally a Communist country, just reformed appropriately to get on with the times and stay in power. It has its own agenda, namely to stay in power: Chinese nationalist rhetoric in China is just a tactic to shore up and maintain power.

Then it is already better than Western governments, because Western governments don't even bother to go as far as to pander to nationalism but do the exact opposite. Chinese leaders more often believe in nationalism and actually strive to do things for their own country and people, the way they see it, and make China a great power. Not say corruption doesn't exist or that there aren't people who are looking out for purely their own personal power and wealth, but again, the point is relative to the West China does have a government that does more to look out for their own nation's interests and actively promotes Chinese nationalism. And even if most of them are not genuine, the fact that the practical effect is to promote nationalism and act in what they see in China's best interest, then it is more relevant than what some of their intentions are.

The Chinese government has been making policies to get Chinese people to have more children, restricts and controls immigration, doesn't hesitate to deal with Muslim terrorism and separatism in a ruthless way, made pornography illegal, has an education system that teaches Chinese people to be proud to be Chinese. Could you imagine a Western government with anything even remotely like that?

Quote:In fact, the late USSR under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Andropov was very much "based and redpilled" too.

In fact it was, and it was better than anything we've had in Russia since then. The USSR post-Stalin was actually a fundamentally Russian nationalist entity that made Russia a great power. Despite being officially communist. The same Soviet government also promoted traditional societal values (with a couple notable exceptions) and opposed most of what today you would consider Western liberalism.

Quote:Not everything is US = Bad. China = Good. The world is a lot more nuanced than that.

It seems Westerners have a mental block that immediately comes on when they hear "Communist". Yes, it is more nuanced, this isn't the Cold War anymore and the paradigm today is not about the West vs. "communism". You can say they are "Communist" but in practice the Chinese elites are doing what it is beneficial for China from the Chinese perspective. The fact is the power of the US relative to the rest of the world will continue to decline, China is becoming more powerful, and it will naturally insist on having its logical sphere of influence in the region regardless of the Western influence there.

And the relative decline of US power is a good thing. We know who leads the US today, and we know the US has used its power to spread liberal globalism throughout the world. As other powers like China rise the influence of the US weakens, and that weakens its ability to spread the liberal ideology.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2019 10:50 PM by Knight of Malta.)
08-12-2019 10:41 PM
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Post: #510
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
@Bienvenuto

Great points, there is indeed a massive generational divide in HK. From what I'm seeing, the riots are backed by most millennials but most boomers are anti-riots. Its a mixed bag among Gen X.

The problem is that the boomers didn't leave much opportunity for the youth. While the boomers in Hong Kong are extremely hardworking, they also had several advantages stacked in their favor.

1. They bought their first homes before asset inflation became a big issue. Most actually saw their property values boom and have gotten quite wealthy from it. They don't want property values to cool off. A lot also benefit from the cross border retail industry if they work for or own anything from a standalone pharmacy to a mall-owning conglomerate.

2. When the boomers came of age, the Mainland was booming yet had zero capital or skilled experts. Hong Kongers back then could open up labor intensive sweatshops and all sorts of small and medium sized enterprises. There was also so much property to develop that Hong Kong developers were having a field day developing the first batch of first world-standard buildings on the Mainland. And when multinationals first opened up representative offices on the Mainland in the early 1990s, the entire management were Hong Kongers. Not just all those opportunities on the Mainland, but Hong Kong itself was booming: The economy was growing gangbusters, people were fearful of 1997 yet very optimistic both by the HK economy and China's reform and opening up, and there was ample opportunity and jobs. In fact, there seemed to be slightly more expats then than now based on various sources.

Today what do the millennials have? The Mainland is out of the question for most millennials: There are more than enough Mainland millennials who can fill all the middle class office jobs at multinationals or any role that deal with foreigners. In 1990, only Hong Kongers were able to deal with foreigners in any sort of capacity, not today. And most Hong Kong millennials resent the Mainland anyways, as the majority feeling on the ground that the CCP is an evil entity trying to destroy their way of life in every way possible. There's no way you can get them to move in this kind of social environment. Obviously the reality is way more nuanced than that.

Also, the boomers do not trust the CCP either, but the boomers have more fear for the CCP while for the millennials, its more resentment. For example, the June protests specifically calling for the extradition bill to be suspended/withdrawn had significant boomer support: trust for the mainland legal system was low enough that for the extradition bill itself, it was largely divided into anti-bill and neutral. Pro-bill sentiments seemed almost nonexistent.

The boomers want to work with the CCP to take advantage of China's growing strength as much as they can while keeping as much of the current system as they can. On the other hand, the boomers are definitely not truly comfortable with the current situation: Pretty much all boomers who can qualify to emigrate have gotten a second passport: The majority returned from abroad immediately after acquiring their passports.

Because the boomers legitimately fear the CCP, they are angry at what the youth is doing. At best, Hong Kong will enter a deep recession. At worst, the CCP will have to intervene, the boomers' worst nightmare come true, and Hong Kong's status and its relations with the world will forever change.

Also keep in mind that due to the poverty many grew up with, and with many witnessing and sympathizing with the 1967 riots, its not hard to muster up anti-British, anti-Western Hong Kong boomers. Keep in mind Hong Kong is NOT monolithically anti-China. Various pro-Beijing parties have about 40% of the vote in Hong Kong consistently. My estimate is that about/at least 15% of the population, mostly boomers, have a grievance against the British colonial government and dim views of the Western government that many forum members here can relate to.

I have already discussed how Hong Kong's insane rents and lopsided, un-diversified economy that favors boomers and to a lesser extent, expats and overseas-educated Mainlanders. Hong Kong youth are likely Asia's most underemployed. Only Taiwan comes close.

The millennials definitely drank the democracy koolaid thinking that they can vote out the system. A lot also feel like they have nothing to lose: They resent the Mainland and there are no longer opportunities for them there anyways. Life in Hong Kong for them is just a depressing mixture of Dickensian economics, overcrowding, and China's shadow becoming ever stronger by the day with no end in sight. There is legitimate fear that the rights they have today will be taken away. This is a powder keg that can make anyone stuck in such an environment depressed and angry.

Another important fact is that peaceful protests have already occurred in Hong Kong: In 2014, there was Occupy Central, where streets in Hong Kong Island were shut down for 79 days in a peaceful protest. About 60% of the current rioters were also participants in 2014. What we are witnessing in 2019 is pent-up anger simmering below the service left over from 2014, where the government refused to give any concessions to the 2014 protesters and took no concrete steps whatsoever in improving youth living conditions. In fact the CCP stepped into disqualify elected members of the LegCo, arrested a some booksellers, while the Hong Kong courts sentenced the Occupy leaders to prison. None of that helped youth anger or China's soft power in HK at all.

In a nutshell, this is a critical 1967 moment for the HKSAR. In fact the timing was uncannily similar: the second iteration of Hong Kong as a British colony started in 1949 and ended in 1997. 1967 was 18 years after the start and 30 years before the end. 2019 is 22 years after 1997 and 28 years before 2047.

Hong Kong will eventually get back to normal after this summer, but it will be a new normal. The HKSAR as we knew it will definitely be changed, but given the resilience of the place, it won't be doomed either. What is likely is that the CCP will have a more direct say in the everyday governance of Hong Kong. The youth of Hong Kong are the most left-behind in Asia, and the local government is poor in communicating with locals.

How China deals with both ending the protests and the programs it directly or indirectly implements in the aftermath will not only chart Hong Kong's path for the next several decades, but also it will play a pivotal role in China's growth trajectory, soft power implications, and international relations for the rest of the century too.

For China, this is now a bigger test than the US trade war. It might even be a make or break moment for China's future geopolitical and international ambitions.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 12:59 AM by Aquarius.)
08-13-2019 12:22 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
@ Knight of Malta

Yes, Hong Kong's GDP is only about 3% of China's now, and today, the Mainland is more than capable of conducting international trade on its own. There are plenty of multinationals, international flights, and busy cargo terminals all over the Mainland.

However, Hong Kong, that city with just 3% of China's GDP, can do so many things that the Mainland can't or won't do, that directly stems from Hong Kong's British-style laws, international reputation, and its free port tax haven status. I've mentioned a lot of examples in a previous post. China will still survive obviously, but closing Hong Kong as a window will definitely not keep international trade in the rest of the Mainland unaffected: It will have to become a lot more autarkic in that case. If push comes to shove, China can do this, but does it actually want to do so? Hell no.

I agree with you on the democracy koolaid and that most of democracy is a sham anyways: Remember the US has a "deep state" that's just a nebulous way of describing the Political Machine and its intricate alliances and infighting factions.

On Western leaders vs Chinese leaders patriotism. I can say that Western leaders are "patriotic" in their own way: They don't identify with the people are looking after their own interests, but they do swear allegiance to their in-group, whatever that is and whatever you might project it to be. The CCP is working with very different circumstances with a very different population. They have decided that to further their own power, pandering to nationalism is needed: Introducing Globohomo to 2019 Chinese society will be a death sentence for whatever the ruling party is in charge. If the ruling party thinks they can get away with it, they'll do anything.

In fact, I'd even retract my statement a little about Globohomo in China. Have you ever watched Mainland Chinese TV shows or actually talked to the people on the ground there? Most people don't mind, with a good bit actually wanting, more foreigners as long as they respect the culture and the government. And there's a lot of subtle gay displays on TV: there are quite a few bulldyke pop stars. Hiphop has become popular too. Also, the live streaming culture is actually bigger in China than the US. China gave the world Tik Tok after all, and its very mainstream. And of course, the amount of censorship in China is very stiffling.

The Western leaders, like the Chinese leaders, identify more with their political machine, except that the Western leaders made it much more nebulous. Their political machine would benefit the people on the surface too if they somehow determined it would be political suicide to push blatant gayness or mass immigration. They did their research and gave blatant globohomo a green light after assessing their risks. It remains to be seen whether that's a reckless blunder on their part.

China cracks down on the Muslims because they really need long term stability and a broad Chinese identity in Xinjiang for One Belt One Road to work smoothly. CCP factional infighting is highly likely to also be a reason for the harsh measures implemented in Xinjiang. And Xinjiang isn't just about "oppressing Muslims". Uyghurs are employed as police officers there and they even run many of the camps. Han living in Xinjiang face far more everyday life restrictions than Han from the rest of China. In fact, Xinjiang Han are frequently brushed with a broad stroke as "Xinjiang ren" elsewhere. China teaches people to be Chinese because the only governable China is a unified China: A disunited China always ends up as bloody civil war shitshows: this has happened time and time again in history.

And on geopolitical balance, of course that is desired. But remember that most empires last about 250 years. The American Empire is reaching its expiry date anyways. But on the other hand, China is still a young country. We are not sure what a potential Chinese Empire will actually be like: There's a possibility it may be very brutal, or there's a possibility that it might be enlightened and bring about unprecedented global prosperity. From what I know, most Chinese don't care or even want to dominate the world: In a perfect world, we just want to be regional hegemon in Asia, revive the idea of tributary states, and not be bothered by foreign powers except for beneficial trade, perhaps aided by the overseas Chinese diaspora. So there's a good chance that China will not come to dominate the rest of the world. But the world is never perfect, so no one knows: Literally no one knew the June protests would turn into a summer long riot/insurgency.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 12:58 AM by Aquarius.)
08-13-2019 12:56 AM
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Post: #512
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-12-2019 11:49 AM)Aquarius Wrote:  ...

9. China doesn't see itself as a based and redpill country that you disgruntled Westerners so badly want it to be. The CCP itself actually believes in Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and it is fundamentally a Communist country, just reformed appropriately to get on with the times and stay in power. It has its own agenda, namely to stay in power: Chinese nationalist rhetoric in China is just a tactic to shore up and maintain power. In fact, the late USSR under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Andropov was very much "based and redpilled" too.

Overall, those riots in Hong Kong are what you get when you have an out of touch elite that completely ignores public opinion: the middle class youth in Hong Kong have been completely, and utterly failed by the system. The situation is much more like the GJ France if anything. Except the youth have "democracy" as a blind ideology to fight for, and the HKPF and the CCP, rightfully or wrongfully, as their scapegoats.

Not everything is US = Bad. China = Good. The world is a lot more nuanced than that.

I think the Gilets Jaunes comparison here is completely unfounded.

As to the last sentence, most of us will agree that Globohomo and neocon interventionism are majorly bad. Unfortunately, those two features have been the main driving forces of US foreign policy in the last couple of decades.

Nationalism in the US has been thoroghly subverted, it now stands for forever wars, the notion that the $6 trillion spent on invading and occupying Iraq and Afghanistan is for own freedom and safety (right wing nationalist propaganda), or that Russia is an evil entity that has to be militarily confronted because it oppresses homos (left-wing nationalist propaganda).

As to China, regardless of what you might think about their government, there is absolutely no question that they have presided over what has been the greatest buildup of wealth in the shortest period in the entire history of humanity, and that there is little doubt that the next generations of Chinese will be richer than the previous one.

Unfortunately for us, no western leader can say this, in fact the opposite is true in every western nation; the current generation acress the West is poorer than their Boomer parents, and the next one might be even more socially and economically precarious (if only because we are getting ethnically replaced).

λ ό γ ο ς
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 02:07 AM by 911.)
08-13-2019 01:58 AM
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Post: #513
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Trump has "delayed" the new tariffs on China until the end of the year.
What a paper tiger he has turned out to be.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49287494

Quote:Trump delays some tariffs on Chinese imports


The US is delaying imposing tariffs on some imports from China until 15 December because of "health, safety, national security and other factors". The products include mobile phones, laptops, video game consoles, some toys, computer monitors, and certain footwear and clothing.

The surprise news from the United States Trade Representative office sparked a 5% jump in Apple shares. Other items facing a 10% tariff will go ahead as planned on 1 September. US President Donald Trump, speaking to reporters, said that the delay was in part to avoid hitting US shoppers this Christmas.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 03:25 PM by Caduceus.)
08-13-2019 03:19 PM
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Post: #514
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
There's the ongoing idea in this thread that because China isn't on the 'globohomo' agenda that we should have no concerns about their rise because the decline of the US is a good thing. They often say that China's rise is irrelevant because it is a distraction from the demographic changes taking place in the U.S. which is the true threat.

Just wanted to post a column from Pat Buchanan, who is the original vocal anti-immigration paleoconservative. Even he realizes that if you look at it from a purely nationalist angle, China's rise is NOT in America's interest. This follows up from my previous postings on Bannon's anti-China attitude.

https://vdare.com/articles/patrick-j-buc...ter-threat

Quote:Patrick J. Buchanan: China, Not Russia, the Greater Threat

Ten weeks of protests, some huge, a few violent, culminated Monday with a shutdown of the Hong Kong airport.

Ominously, Beijing described the violent weekend demonstrations as "deranged" acts that are "the first signs of terrorism," and vowed a merciless crackdown on the perpetrators.

China is being pushed toward a decision it does not want to make: to use military force, as in Tiananmen Square 30 years ago, to crush the uprising. For that would reveal the character of President Xi Jinping's Communist dictatorship, as well as Beijing's long-term plans for this semi-autonomous city of almost 7.5 million.

Yet this is not the only internal or border concern of Xi's regime.

Millions of Muslim Uighurs in China's west are in concentration camps undergoing "re-education" to change their way of thinking on loyalty, secession and the creation of a new East Turkestan.

In June, a Chinese vessel rammed and sank a Philippine fishing boat, leaving its 22 crewmen to drown. The fishermen were rescued by a Vietnamese boat.

President Rodrigo Duterte's reluctance to resist China's fortification in the South China Sea of the rocks and reefs Manila claims are within its own territorial waters has turned Philippine nationalism anti-China.

China's claim to Taiwan is being defied by Taipei, which just bought $2.2 billion in U.S. military equipment including Abrams tanks and Stinger missiles.

Any Taiwanese declaration of independence, China has warned, means war.

While Taiwan's request to buy U.S. F-16s has not yet been approved, in a rare visit, Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen stopped over in the U.S. recently, before traveling on to Caribbean countries that retain diplomatic relations with Taipei. Beijing has expressed its outrage at the U.S. arms sales and Tsai's unofficial visit.

The vaunted Chinese economy is growing, at best, at half the double-digit rate of a decade ago, not enough to create the jobs needed for hundreds of millions in the countryside seeking work.

And talks have been suspended in the U.S.-China trade dispute, at the heart of which, says White House aide Peter Navarro, are Beijing's "seven deadly sins" in dealing with the United States:

China steals our intellectual property via cybertheft, forces U.S. companies in China to transfer technology, hacks our computers, dumps into our markets to put U.S. companies out of business, subsidizes state-owned enterprises to compete with U.S. firms, manipulates its currency, and, despite our protests, ships to the USA the fentanyl drug that has become a major killer of Americans.

Such practices have enabled China to run up annual trade surpluses of $300 billion to $400 billion at our expense, and, says Navarro, have caused the loss of 70,000 factories and 5 million manufacturing jobs in the U.S.

Moreover, China has used the accumulated wealth of its huge trade surpluses to finance its drive for hegemony in Asia and beyond.

With President Donald Trump threatening 10% tariffs on $300 billion more in Chinese exports to the U.S., Xi must decide if he is willing to end his trade-war tactics against the U.S., which have gone on during the Clinton, Bush and Obama administrations. If he refuses, will he accept the de-coupling of our two economies?

Only Trump has taken on the Middle Kingdom.

If the American people and Congress are willing to play hardball and accept sacrifices, we can win this face-off. The U.S. buys five times as much from China as we sell to China. The big loser in this confrontation, if we stay the course, will not be the USA.

For three years, the U.S. establishment has not ceased to howl about Russia's theft of emails of the DNC and Hillary Clinton campaign.

Yet the greatest cybercrime of the century was Beijing's theft in 2014 of the personnel files of 22 million applicants and employees of the U.S. government, many of them holding top-secret clearances.

Compromised by this theft, said then FBI Director James Comey, was a "treasure trove of information about everybody who has worked for, tried to work for, or works for the United States government."

"A very big deal from a national security ... and counterintelligence perspective," said Comey. And Xi's China, not Putin's Russia, committed the crime. Yet America's elites appear to have forgotten this far graver act of cyberaggresion.

Undeniably, Russia is a rival. But Putin's economy is the size of Italy's while China's economy challenges our own. And China's population is 10 times that of Russia, and four times that of the USA.

Manifestly, China is the greater menace.

Are Americans willing to make the necessary sacrifices to force China to abide by the rules of reciprocal trade?

Or will Trump be forced by political realities to accept the long-term and ruinous relationship we have followed since granting China permanent MFN status in 2001?

This issue is likely to decide the destiny of our relations and the future of Asia, if not the world.
08-13-2019 08:11 PM
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El Chinito loco Offline
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Post: #515
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-13-2019 08:11 PM)Arado Wrote:  There's the ongoing idea in this thread that because China isn't on the 'globohomo' agenda that we should have no concerns about their rise because the decline of the US is a good thing. They often say that China's rise is irrelevant because it is a distraction from the demographic changes taking place in the U.S. which is the true threat.

Just wanted to post a column from Pat Buchanan, who is the original vocal anti-immigration paleoconservative. Even he realizes that if you look at it from a purely nationalist angle, China's rise is NOT in America's interest. This follows up from my previous postings on Bannon's anti-China attitude.

Pat Buchanan is not wrong. It's a shame that the U.S. didn't elect him as president when there was a chance. If he was 20 years younger and had the political cunning of Trump he would make a fine president.

He's the closest approximation of a conservative politician with integrity that America will ever see. I also believe he genuinely has America's best interests at heart as a nation and people.

Now he's too old and he's been pretty much on the outs with the establishment since the 90's.

Anyways, two things can be true at the same time. China is a threat and it is also used as a distraction from demographic issues.

One possible war scenario I see globohomo enacting in the far future is that when demographics are flipped to latino dominant they can possibly bring back conscription and send millions of browns off to die in a war in Asia. Selective service isn't a thing of the past. This would be politically bad but by that time the U.S. will essentially be a one party system so it won't matter as much.

That could potentially kill two birds with one stone in their view.

Elites in power don't really care about the underclass to begin with and when the permanent brown frankenstein underclass they have created becomes too problematic they will have to cull the herd at some point. War in asia seems like the most likely bet to kill off millions of welfare recipients at once.

I imagine even Chinese elites deep down may not be too opposed to the idea of bleeding off some of their own excess male population.

The problem of course is the whole nuclear issue.

Quote:Pat Buchanan:


Moreover, China has used the accumulated wealth of its huge trade surpluses to finance its drive for hegemony in Asia and beyond.

I'm based in Southeast Asia and at the ground level here I see China's present and future hegemony in southeast asia as a foregone conclusion at this point. I have a business here and my general feeling is that China business all over SEA has increased substantially since the Trump tariffs. There seems to be a big push for China to extend way into every facet of SEA industry in order to make it more robust against trade wars and dependence on just U.S. trade as an engine of growth.

The Chinese elites aren't stupid either I think they knew this goose would stop laying golden eggs eventually.

I believe they were starting to do this way before Trump was elected. I could see it happening way back during Obama's second term when China was already pouring a shitload of money into SEA projects.

This increased economic hold at all levels of industry including government ties on SEA actually increases its hegemony over multiple SEA nations.

People here have said that the SEA population in general doesn't like China and this is true. There's plenty of anti-China sentiment with people in let's say the Philippines or Vietnam but the problem here is that their elites love China. They make money hand over first dealing with China.

The people in these countries have even less political agency than Americans do so that should tell you something about how futile popular resistance will be by the peons.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 08:47 PM by El Chinito loco.)
08-13-2019 08:44 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread




Good video
08-14-2019 10:01 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
@ El Chinito loco

I can also repost this in the Predictions for the 20s thread, but I only see one direction that all of SEA, without a single exception, is going: Satellite states of the PRC. I can see some countries, namely Cambodia, Thailand, and Myanmar, even introduce the Chinese language in its education system. I do know that the amount of Chinese signage has more or less matched the amount of English in Thailand.

ASEAN is shaping up to be the new Warsaw Pact of the 21st century it seems.
08-14-2019 10:56 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-14-2019 10:56 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  I do know that the amount of Chinese signage has more or less matched the amount of English in Thailand.

Because the plurality of their tourists come from China, and they've got a large ethnic Chinese minority who've only recently been free from forced assimilation laws.

On a lighter note, Huawei of all firms, has triggered the ultranationalists by writing Taibei, Taiwan in the Traditional Chinese location settings (But Taibei, China in the simplified)
[Image: A2FmRUg.jpg]
https://s.weibo.com/weibo?q=%23%E5%8D%8E...SWeibo_box
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08-15-2019 01:38 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-12-2019 04:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 09:38 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Hong Kong protesters singing the USA anthem.


(08-12-2019 06:29 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  ^

Lol!

Those Hong Kong protests are totally not sponsored by the CIA, US State department and the usual's ...

You are mistaken Knjaz.

No one is paying these protestors to sign the American anthem. These Hong Kong'ers are giving a big fat "FUCK YOU" to China. They also are savvy internet youth who know people are spreading conspiracy theories that they are controlled by the USA (when in fact they hate China and prefer Western/US lifestyle more), so they are feeding into that image in order to cause as much international friction between the USA and China as possible.

Lots of conflict between the USA and China = freedom for HK. If China actually believes that the HK protestors are controlled by the USA, two things happen:

1. China is now extremely wary of using military force.
2. China continues to make heated rhetoric and accusations against the US, hurting US-Sino relations (which are already at a low point).

These protestors are going for max damage in any way possible, including getting major super powers to fight in each over it. They are fighting for "freedom", although I am unsure if HK Elites are just using these kids as useful idiots or not (probably are) but for the youth apparently this suits their interests better.

It's not a CIA movement. These HK protestors are being too obvious, they are trolling the shit out of everyone and it is damn hilarious. The funny chinese accent singing "rocket's red flare" is truly Laugh.

You know, I was going to start my response by trying to explain about how manipulated and artificial the Hong Kong protests are, but considering that a whole other thread and this thread have been continued with other posters making arguments I would've made, I will only write on another matter instead.

These Hong Kong protests are literally completely useless in the long term. The Hong Kong protesters will not win. The best they could theoretically achieve is to delay Hong Kong's full integration into China for a few years or maybe a few decades if they really luck out.

Why?

Simple. None of these protesters are either willing or capable of fighting an armed insurgency again Beijing. This, of course, in advance nullifies the fact that even if they were, their chances of victory would be nearly zero, since China is too strong for the USA to successfully militarily intervene on the side of the Hong Kong rebels. Tiananmen Square in 1989 completely failed despite the intense international media hype about it. Considering China has only grown much more powerful in the 30 years leading up to these protests in 2019 right now, an assessment of all the evidence, information and facts currently suggest that these Hong Kong protests will fail like the Tiananmen Square ones did.

Earlier in this thread, i made some intense arguments in favor of Mainland China and the Chinese state partly because I felt that perspective was lacking in this thread, but also since a bunch of blatant falsehoods and half truths were being written about China, especially in the context of China's relationship to the USA. Regardless, getting agitated about China and Hong Kong as someone who isn't Chinese and none of it impacts someone personally and directly is somewhat pointless. Evidently, my comment on the previous page that these protests are most probably artificial, astroturfed and backed by the US State Department, CIA and so on, struck such a strong nerve among some people that Captain Chardonnay gave me a neutral rep because he felt so butthurt about it lol!

That's why all this Hong Kong protester fanboying strikes me as pointless, and even bizarre, since not only is there nothing heroic about the Hong Kong protesters, but these protests are literally going to lead nowhere in the long term anyway. Maybe at most, they will make a small dent in the history of the 21st century, just like the 1989 Tiananmen protests made a small dent in 20th century history.

"And guess what, you might have a feeling that youre destined for something else, and that any day now it will dawn on you, but it will remain that, just a feeling that you use as a crutch to never focus on anything", Beirut.
08-17-2019 09:15 AM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-05-2019 09:08 PM)Arado Wrote:  Sorry for the late reply and very interesting post. Very fair points that we are still far away from a Pax Sinica. You're right that there are tons of problems with the current world order. However, things could get worse. At the very least, you could admit that not every country will equally benefit if China became a hyperpower. Even if this forum is very white-centric, we can't totally dismiss opinions of those that are from a different background. Probably a nationalist in Eastern Europe wouldn't be affected as much by China's rise (and could even benefit depending on the metric), so I can understand your perspective. However, those along China's periphery who have resources that China covets and are seen by the Chinese as inferior would have more to fear.

Again, I'll pose the question - can you point to any superpowers that did NOT use their power to subjugate weaker nations and peoples? As you suspected, I am a bit obsessed with human nature, since that is what drives the long term trends of history. The inherent selfish nature of humans doesn't necessarily make the US "deserve" supremacy more than China, but it should at least give us pause and question the assumption that anything is better than the US.

All good with the late reply, my reply has not been the quickest either. Moving on to the content:

How exactly could things get worse in the world right now? I frankly struggle to see how. That is, besides your previously vague implication that China would somehow run around the world magically committing mass genocide if it became a uni-polar superpower.

I never stated or suggested that every country in the world will equally benefit from China becoming a "hyperpower" (whatever that's supposed to mean, maybe you meant superpower?). Since equality in an absolute sense is an illusion, it is obvious that no one will equally benefit or lose from China becoming the world's dominant power.

The part where you show concern for China's neighbors is really one of the key parts of interest though. You are implying and suggesting that China will steal their neighbors' resources and exploit or abuse them, since they see their neighbors as inferiors. There is definitely some truth to the fact that China will desire to trade with is neighbors and access their resources. Still, whether the manner in which China behaves towards its neighbors is objectionable, problematic, or whatever else, is ultimately something that should be left for China's neighbors to judge and determine. Of course, this warrants a brief analysis of China's neighbors and their opinions on their relationship with China.

It is clear that many of China's neighbors have quite cordial and even positive relationships with China. Russia, North Korea, the Philippines, Mongolia and India, among others, all have quite functional and cordial relationships with China. In the cases of Russia and the Philippines, it is especially important to briefly dispel the false propaganda that exists in international media about their relationship with China. The "Chinese are stealing Siberia hoax" is a false US talking point that only exists to cause friction between Russia and China, when in reality, China and Russia are firmly integrated in anti-US military, economic, and political alliance which is caused by US policy instead of China dominating Russia with higher power levels, as is also supposedly claimed. As for the Philippines, despite the whole "China is building artificial islands and violating international waters" propaganda, Rodrigo Duterte is following an active pro-China policy in order to protect himself against US support of Muslim terrorists, drug dealers, and the overall globohomo package in the Philippines.

Otherwise, the neighbors China has problems with, are really the ones that are US puppets who deliberately agitate and provoke China as US proxies who have direct or indirect US military support. The only notable exception to all these neighbors is Vietnam, which has a genuine centuries old historical enmity towards China because of past history. Vietnam actually has some level of its own national sovereignty beyond being a simple US puppet like Taiwan, South Korea, or Japan (Japan also has historical enmity with China which is really much more Japan's fault, but it does not have national sovereignty). What is actually ironic about all of this, is that Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, Tibetans and Fa-Lung Gong, and Hong Kongers are the ones that are much more bothered by China than most of China's neighbors. Plus, of course, random online armchair commentators beyond the Asia region. I would give further comments about the relationship of countries with China in the Central Asia region, Indo-China besides Vietnam, and South East Asia besides the Philippines, but i lack enough knowledge on those matters.

Also, you state that human nature drives the long term trends of history. Is this really true though? What about the long term trends of economics, demographics, science, technology, wars and politics/geo-politics? It would be more logical that those things are far greater determinants of long term trends of history compared to "human nature" (which is actually quite a vaguely defined term).

Another key part of your reply is where you state that because of human nature, we should question whether anything or any force can be better than the USA. This is, in effect, using your vague and abstract conceptions about "human nature" to give a moral justification of the USA's current dominance in the world, and by extension, of the current globohomo world order. In fact, this suggestion not only implies that China is not a superior alternative to the USA given the context in which you used it, but that literally absolutely nothing exists that can possibly be superior (both morally and even practically) to the USA. This is in many ways an even worse delusion than the one that the USA is simply morally and practically better than China. It is actually a delusion that has existed for centuries and millennia in the past, and probably will exist in the future as well. It is the delusion and assumption that just because some force or international system simply happens to be dominant in a given time period, that it is the absolute best and most moral thing to ever have existed in the world, without any alternative being possibly capable of superseding it.

Such delusions were common in ancient Rome, and were a contributing factor to the decline/dissolution of the Western Roman Empire. I could use many other historical examples, but most of them are much more short lived than the Roman Empire. In fact, the USA is actually a much more short lived "empire" than the Roman Empire. Also, it is actually much more short lived than most of the other empires' that have existed throughout history. For example, the Ottoman Empire existed from 1299-1923, while the Habsburg Empire existed from 1526-1918. The USA has only existed from 1776 until now to 2019 (243 years), which is clearly a much shorter time frame than the above archaic empires. Of course, the USA will not immediately collapse or dissolve with its empire, and one cannot make certain judgement with full confidence unless one has absolute control over future events. The impact of given events or history can only be reliably assessed with absolute confidence when they are a thing of the past (Even then, this is not always the case). Also, this is a somewhat complex topic where one could argue that the comparison of the USA to past empires is crude and inaccurate. I would contend otherwise, but that matter is very much beyond the scope of this thread although it is vital to discuss and analyse since it is a crucial underpinning to your arguments.

"And guess what, you might have a feeling that youre destined for something else, and that any day now it will dawn on you, but it will remain that, just a feeling that you use as a crutch to never focus on anything", Beirut.
(This post was last modified: 08-17-2019 10:27 AM by KnjazMihailo.)
08-17-2019 10:24 AM
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Lunostrelki Offline
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Post: #521
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Interesting that what Prince Michael calls "US puppets" are all civilized countries like the ROK, Taiwan, and Japan, while the ones with "functional and cordial relations" are corrupt regimes like Best Korea, the Philippines, and Cambodia.

Anyway, it's definitely not all roses with the West either. I've talked at length about factional politics in China and how the Trump administration was on a good track with the trade war and other forms of pressure.

Unfortunately, Trump is currently dropping the ball.

He is so desperate for a trade deal that he's scared to confront the PRC on anything else. Instead of telling Xi in Reagan-style terms to respect Hong Kong's autonomy, Trump's sending Xi these beta requests to keep everyone safe and engage in dialogue.

It's not going to work. The magic of the trade war was that for China, it was a political issue as much as an economic issue, and the US government was finally growing a spine and standing up to the CCP's cheating. The implication was the the US would oppose the CCP regime itself, force structural reforms, and bring an end to the cheating and communist subversion once and for all. That fear, which Reagan was able to get the Soviets to feel in the 1980s, is the only thing that can make the CCP retreat. But with his limp-wristed attitude on Hong Kong, Trump is telling everyone that everything his administration has been doing is motivated the narrow goal of getting a trade deal signed, not to solve the fundamental issues.

Predictably, Trump's tweets to Xi got no response except the lady at the PRC Foreign Ministry telling him to get out of China's internal affairs.
(This post was last modified: 08-17-2019 12:32 PM by Lunostrelki.)
08-17-2019 12:31 PM
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Lunostrelki Offline
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-17-2019 09:15 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 04:08 PM)Samseau Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 09:38 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Hong Kong protesters singing the USA anthem.


(08-12-2019 06:29 AM)KnjazMihailo Wrote:  ^

Lol!

Those Hong Kong protests are totally not sponsored by the CIA, US State department and the usual's ...

You are mistaken Knjaz.

No one is paying these protestors to sign the American anthem. These Hong Kong'ers are giving a big fat "FUCK YOU" to China. They also are savvy internet youth who know people are spreading conspiracy theories that they are controlled by the USA (when in fact they hate China and prefer Western/US lifestyle more), so they are feeding into that image in order to cause as much international friction between the USA and China as possible.

Lots of conflict between the USA and China = freedom for HK. If China actually believes that the HK protestors are controlled by the USA, two things happen:

1. China is now extremely wary of using military force.
2. China continues to make heated rhetoric and accusations against the US, hurting US-Sino relations (which are already at a low point).

These protestors are going for max damage in any way possible, including getting major super powers to fight in each over it. They are fighting for "freedom", although I am unsure if HK Elites are just using these kids as useful idiots or not (probably are) but for the youth apparently this suits their interests better.

It's not a CIA movement. These HK protestors are being too obvious, they are trolling the shit out of everyone and it is damn hilarious. The funny chinese accent singing "rocket's red flare" is truly Laugh.

You know, I was going to start my response by trying to explain about how manipulated and artificial the Hong Kong protests are, but considering that a whole other thread and this thread have been continued with other posters making arguments I would've made, I will only write on another matter instead.

These Hong Kong protests are literally completely useless in the long term. The Hong Kong protesters will not win. The best they could theoretically achieve is to delay Hong Kong's full integration into China for a few years or maybe a few decades if they really luck out.

Why?

Simple. None of these protesters are either willing or capable of fighting an armed insurgency again Beijing. This, of course, in advance nullifies the fact that even if they were, their chances of victory would be nearly zero, since China is too strong for the USA to successfully militarily intervene on the side of the Hong Kong rebels. Tiananmen Square in 1989 completely failed despite the intense international media hype about it. Considering China has only grown much more powerful in the 30 years leading up to these protests in 2019 right now, an assessment of all the evidence, information and facts currently suggest that these Hong Kong protests will fail like the Tiananmen Square ones did.

Earlier in this thread, i made some intense arguments in favor of Mainland China and the Chinese state partly because I felt that perspective was lacking in this thread, but also since a bunch of blatant falsehoods and half truths were being written about China, especially in the context of China's relationship to the USA. Regardless, getting agitated about China and Hong Kong as someone who isn't Chinese and none of it impacts someone personally and directly is somewhat pointless. Evidently, my comment on the previous page that these protests are most probably artificial, astroturfed and backed by the US State Department, CIA and so on, struck such a strong nerve among some people that Captain Chardonnay gave me a neutral rep because he felt so butthurt about it lol!

That's why all this Hong Kong protester fanboying strikes me as pointless, and even bizarre, since not only is there nothing heroic about the Hong Kong protesters, but these protests are literally going to lead nowhere in the long term anyway. Maybe at most, they will make a small dent in the history of the 21st century, just like the 1989 Tiananmen protests made a small dent in 20th century history.

Make up your mind, are the protests in Hong Kong a CIA plot, or are they useless resistance? So millions of people in Hong Kong are just brainwashed by US psyops?

Everything you've been saying in this thread has been some form of supporting the PRC and the CCP so that you can attack America. You hate the United States so much that you support organ harvesting Communist China.

Guess what, not everything revolves around US imperialism. There are things worse and more brutal than the US, and the PRC regime is one of them.

If I were to apply your logic in 1945, I'd be praying for Stalin to kill or deport all the Yugoslavians to Siberia. Because resistance to the mighty Soviet Union is futile and all it might do is theoretically delay the absorption of all Eastern Europe by a few years.
08-17-2019 12:48 PM
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KnjazMihailo Offline
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Post: #523
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
(08-17-2019 12:48 PM)Lunostrelki Wrote:  Make up your mind, are the protests in Hong Kong a CIA plot, or are they useless resistance? So millions of people in Hong Kong are just brainwashed by US psyops?

Everything you've been saying in this thread has been some form of supporting the PRC and the CCP so that you can attack America. You hate the United States so much that you support organ harvesting Communist China.

Guess what, not everything revolves around US imperialism. There are things worse and more brutal than the US, and the PRC regime is one of them.

If I were to apply your logic in 1945, I'd be praying for Stalin to kill or deport all the Yugoslavians to Siberia. Because resistance to the mighty Soviet Union is futile and all it might do is theoretically delay the absorption of all Eastern Europe by a few years.

First off, are the numbers of people protesting in Hong Kong really in the millions?

Why wouldn't it be possible that the Hong Kong protests are a combination of useless resistance by local Hong Kongers and a CIA plot? What is so implausible about it?

The whole organ harvesting thing about Communist China you have mentioned is a complete hoax that I have already debunked earlier in this thread. That is, especially if you are referring to the hoaxes about the Chinese government harvesting the organs of Falun-Gong.

Your comment about Stalin and Yugoslavia just demonstrates how much you know absolutely nothing about that subject matter. It just shows that you have no idea about the fact that the Red Army liberated Serbia/Yugoslavia (Yes, this was the case, contrary to all the Yugo-Communist propaganda memes about Yugo-Communist partisans liberating themselves with their legendary offensives) in 1944 and 1945, especially at the 1944 Battle of Belgrade, from a brutal and ruthless occupation by Nazi Germany with its even more evil axis collaborators. It also demonstrates your ignorance of the fact that there were many pro-Stalinist Communists in Yugoslavia, and that they were brutally deported to the Goli Otok (Naked rock) island concentration camp where they were killed and tortured by the thousands. To clarify, Goli Otok was basically an empty and rocky island in the Adriatic Sea where hundreds of thousands of political prisoners were deported and then killed similar in function and purpose to a Siberian Gulag. In fact, the Yugoslav Communists you seem to have an implicit admiration for due to their opposition to the USSR, were actually just as brutal, if not even more so, but on a smaller scale than Stalin and the USSR were. The Yugo-Communists also almost started a massive war over Trieste and Istria with Italy from 1945-1948. They also ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Italians from Istria and Dalmatia after WW2. Possibly, the ultimate wrong doing of the Yugo-Communists was creating artificial and arbitrary internal borders of Yugoslavia that are nearly identical to the current borders in the West Balkans. This, of course, played a large part in the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav Wars where the USA arbitrarily and lopsidedly intervened with an international coalition against Serbs, especially in a very direct way in 1995 and 1999 (There is a lot of thick propaganda composed of complete lies, half truths, and lies by omission about the events in the links, but nevertheless, the purpose of the links is to briefly refer to relevant events).

As for whether i hate the USA, I am absolutely deeply repulsed by, and hostile to US government foreign policy from 1945 to 2019, but most especially by US foreign policy from 1990-2019. Considering that the USA directly acted against my people in the Yugoslav Wars from 1990-2001 by arming neighboring enemies, facilitating the extermination and ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of my countrymen from their ancestral homes, bombed (even with depleted uranium and cluster bombs), killed, and maimed thousands into oblivion for months on end, and impoverished them to this day, I should arguably be more hostile towards the USA than I am right now. Especially considering that from the 1990's to this day in 2019, the USA is engaged in a military occupation of the Balkans in Bosnia and Kosovo (coupled with relentlessly aggressive political pressure) whose fundamental purpose is to suppress and harm the national interests of my people, I have good reason to be hostile to the USA in general, and as i stated before, I maybe should be infinitely and eternally more hostile to the USA than I currently am. It is only common sense that for everyone on this planet that has been wronged by the USA, China is an infinitely better and superior alternative to the USA.

If you think my opinion on this is fringe, then you should know that most people in the world share a similar sentiment about the USA and its foreign policy for different reasons. There are in fact even many US commentators who are also similarly repulsed by the foreign policy behavior of their country. Of course, despite this, I clearly understand that most Americans are either simply clueless about, or strongly disapprove of their nations foreign policy when they learn something about it. Most Americans are plagued with severe internal problems in their country and have a very bleak prospect for their future. I do not hate the majority of the American population since I understand how difficult their internal situation is, and most of them are not at fault for their country's foreign policy since they are mostly powerless to change it, and do not approve of their country's foreign policy anyway. In fact, like I previously said, I sincerely wish most Americans luck in the future since they're going to need it. I also feel lucky and fortunate that I am not directly associated with the USA given current trends. Of course, regardless, like most people in the world, I simply cannot completely disconnect myself from the USA as most countries in the world are US puppet states with variable levels of subservience to the USA and national sovereignty relative to US power. So yes, like many other people in this world, I am strongly hostile towards, and disgusted by US foreign policy that is still similar in its fundamental nature from 1990-2019 (Although Trump has made some minor improvements to date).

"And guess what, you might have a feeling that youre destined for something else, and that any day now it will dawn on you, but it will remain that, just a feeling that you use as a crutch to never focus on anything", Beirut.
(This post was last modified: 08-17-2019 09:51 PM by KnjazMihailo.)
08-17-2019 09:37 PM
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Post: #524
RE: The Trump China Policy Thread
Like It_is_my_time said, for conservabros China is the bad guy. They don’t really know why though, other than something about intellectual property rights and Chinese students cheating on university entrance exams. Oh and Trump doesn’t like China. So there’s another reason.

Apparently we’ve run out of problems in America since we’re so concerned about the Hong Kong protests.
08-17-2019 11:35 PM
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RE: The Trump China Policy Thread


08-18-2019 02:33 PM
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