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Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
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nomadbrah Offline
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Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Could have and should have gone in the Deep Forum, but no one reads it. I was inspired to write following from the debate in the Migration Thread and elsewhere about the role of Christianity in Europe vs paganism.

If you read the whole thing below, you will probably see that there is more than one way to look at this subject, it is a bit heavy on links and quotes, but I think most will find it interesting:

Jesus was a Gallilean.

Gallileans were known to be outsiders in Israel and had a distinct dialect due to having difficulties with the guttural sounding tones of Afro-Semittic languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_dialect
Quote:the Talmud has one place with several amusing stories about Galilean dialect but indicate only a defective pronunciation of gutturals

Who would have a problem with pronouncing gutturals?

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-harder-to-le...sian-Farsi

Quote:The pronunciation of Persian is easier for most Europeans compared to the guttural sounds of Arabic.

http://www.mezzoguild.com/arabic-and-heb...difficult/

Quote:Those harsh sounds you hear that sound like somebody’s pissed off about something.

There’s actually no secret or shortcut to pronunciation of the guttural sounds

http://ask.metafilter.com/108789/How-do-...and-Arabic

Quote:I'm currently learning both Hebrew and Arabic concurrently and struggling with pronunciation of Chet in Hebrew and the two guttural ch sounds in Arabic. That back of the throat guttural ch is just not coming to me.

Interesting.

Who were the Gallileans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilee
Quote:According to the Bible, Galilee was named by the Israelites and was the tribal region of Naphthali and Dan, at times overlapping the Tribe of Asher's land.[2] However, Dan was dispersed among the whole people rather than isolated to the lands of Dan, as the Tribe of Dan was the hereditary local law enforcement and judiciary for the whole nation.

Aha, so Gallilea was of the tribe of Dan?

Who was the tribe of Dan?

Scholars have debated over the name Dan because it isn't a typical hebrew name. Instead, Dan is a very indo-european name found everywhere: Dan-mark, Dan-ube, Dnepr, Donau, Don.

And as it turned out, it is now believed that the tribe of Dan, was in fact Greeks:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.756385
Quote:The Tribe of Dan, one of the 12 "Israelite tribes," may have started as no such thing. New archaeological evidence suggests that the Danites originated with mercenaries hired from the Aegean and Syria by the Egyptian overlords of Canaan to keep order.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.756385
Quote:The discoveries have rekindled a longstanding academic brawl over the origin of the Danites. Were they really just a tribe of Israel that was left in the cold, found a conveniently isolated city and conquered it? Do they have anything to do with a mysterious kingdom called Danuna mentioned in ancient writing found in Turkey? Or maybe with the Denyen – a faction of invading Sea Peoples, according to ancient Egyptian sources? Or with the Danaoi, one of the Greek tribes? Or are these all one and the same? The findings at Tell el-Qadi (now Tel Dan) suggest they could well be.

Quote:“The most famous Danite in the Bible is Samson, a quite essential archetype of a Greek hero: He is very strong, his power resides in his long hair, he tells riddles and he hangs out with Philistine women,” Ilan points out.

Quote:Ilan postulates that these Aegean-style artifacts in Dan suggest the presence of worshippers hailing from the Aegean—perhaps the Denyen, Danuna (or Danaoi in Greek), in short, one of the ancient Greek tribes. The Denyen/Danuna were also one of the so-called "Sea Peoples" of Aegean origin who invaded Egypt, as described in Ramesses III´s mortuary temple relief (1175 B.C.E.).

Who were the "sea peoples"? Well for one they sacked and invaded Egypt.

That's not all though, they play a major part of Irish myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Quote:Hypotheses regarding the origin of the various groups identified as Sea Peoples remains the source of much speculation.[12] These theories variously propose equating them with several Aegean tribes, raiders from central Europe, scattered soldiers who turned to piracy or who had become refugees, and links with natural disasters such as earthquakes or climatic shifts.[2][13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann
Quote:The Tuath(a) Dé Danann (Irish pronunciation: [/t̪ˠuəhə dʲeː d̪ˠan̪ˠən̪ˠ/], usually translated as "people(s)/tribe(s) of the goddess Danu"), also known by the earlier name Tuath Dé ("tribe of the gods"),[1] are a supernatural race in Irish mythology. They are thought to represent the main deities of pre-Christian Gaelic Ireland.[1]

and

Quote: According to a later version of the story, they arrived in ships

It is well known that some British and Irish are much darker in hair color and often eye color than the Anglo-Saxon derived South England or the Northern Viking derived England. Sean Connery, Collin Farrel etc.

What we have established:


Jesus was a Gallilean.

Gallieans were known in the Talmud as having problems pronouncing semittic gutturals, a feature common with speakers of Indo-European.

Bible says Gallilea was the home of the Tribe of Dan.

Tribe of Dan is now archeologically almost proven to be Aegan/Greek origin from the Sea Peoples, an indo-european people perhaps originating in central europe (raiders from the sea, ring a bell?).

Irish history and myth tells of the coming of the Tribe of Dan-aan in ships.

Now how about those myths?

A famous british poem "And did those feet in ancient time":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_th...cient_time

Quote:The poem was inspired by the apocryphal story that a young Jesus, accompanied by Joseph of Arimathea, a tin merchant, travelled to what is now England and visited Glastonbury during his unknown years

And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon Englands[8] mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.


Myth or fact?

Was Jesus the Gallielean actually of the tribe of Dan, a Greek, an indo-european, a Brit?

The British upper classes certainly believed, it was the birth of British Israelism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

Quote:British Israelism (also called Anglo-Israelism) is a doctrine based on the hypothesis that people of Western European and Northern European descent are the direct lineal descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of the ancient Israelites, particularly in Great Britain. The doctrine often includes the tenet that the British Royal Family is directly descended from the line of King David.[1]

History is a strange phenomenon. Myth and fact are not as easy to make out. Often the upper classes will have an entirely different mythos than those they rule. Secret knowledge or just myth passed down the years from one ruler to the next?
01-18-2017 09:51 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
I'll have to look into this topic.

I will say Hebrew is the ugliest language I have ever heard. I went to a Passover once and the sound of Jews gathering loogies and the faggot caps they wear was too much, I left as discreetly as possible.
01-18-2017 10:04 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 10:04 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  I'll have to look into this topic.

I will say Hebrew is the ugliest language I have ever heard. I went to a Passover once and the sound of Jews gathering loogies and the faggot caps they wear was too much, I left as discreetly as possible.

It seems like British Israelism is a compromise for European pagans and christians alike.
01-18-2017 10:07 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
This belongs in the Deep subforum, not politics.

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01-18-2017 10:53 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Regarding these Sea Peoples, historians would crucify me for saying this, but I believe "Sea people" were in fact Atlanteans.
I know how it sounds but I heard one version of Atlantis story which is very interesting and which says that Lemuria existed as continent, but Atlantis not so much, more like a island nation with maybe couple of cities but with big technological gap compared to neighboring nations. So things like sextant and monocular, not flying saucers like some say.

That version of story says they were seafaring thalassocratic empire (rule of the sea) which had colonies around the world. Some time around 10,000 BC their main land was destroyed but they simply survived and worked like Phoenicians of the later period.

In that time I think they were first referred in Irish myths as Tuathas and later when Egypt rose on the preexisting Atlantean architecture they were referred as Sea People. They simply wanted to claim what was theirs long ago, so they attacked Egypt.

One interesting thing. One of the kings of Tuatha, Nuada, was called "Silver Hand". Apparently he lost hand in the duel with enemy folk hero Sreng (member of Fir Bolgs). After the battle physician installed him a silver hand which worked. And later he got new one from flesh and blood! I mean draw your own conclusions, but too me it sounds eerily like some sort of bionic arm.

Also listen to this. Tuathas had four great treasures. Stone that would cry out beneath the king who took the sovereignty of Ireland. Spear which makes you invincible. A sword no one ever escaped from once it was drawn and no one could resist it. The sword is also described in the Tain legend as a glowing bright torch (lightsaber lol?). Cauldron from which no one left unsatisfied (renewable, great source of food?).

Excuse for potential off topic, just wanted to share this. I am too fascinated with this so I even had plan 2 years ago to write some sort of novel situated in this mythic Irish period from the perspective of non "god like" character.
01-18-2017 12:38 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 12:38 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Regarding these Sea Peoples, historians would crucify me for saying this, but I believe "Sea people" were in fact Atlanteans.
I know how it sounds but I heard one version of Atlantis story which is very interesting and which says that Lemuria existed as continent, but Atlantis not so much, more like a island nation with maybe couple of cities but with big technological gap compared to neighboring nations. So things like sextant and monocular, not flying saucers like some say.

That version of story says they were seafaring thalassocratic empire (rule of the sea) which had colonies around the world. Some time around 10,000 BC their main land was destroyed but they simply survived and worked like Phoenicians of the later period.

In that time I think they were first referred in Irish myths as Tuathas and later when Egypt rose on the preexisting Atlantean architecture they were referred as Sea People. They simply wanted to claim what was theirs long ago, so they attacked Egypt.

One interesting thing. One of the kings of Tuatha, Nuada, was called "Silver Hand". Apparently he lost hand in the duel with enemy folk hero Sreng (member of Fir Bolgs). After the battle physician installed him a silver hand which worked. And later he got new one from flesh and blood! I mean draw your own conclusions, but too me it sounds eerily like some sort of bionic arm.

Also listen to this. Tuathas had four great treasures. Stone that would cry out beneath the king who took the sovereignty of Ireland. Spear which makes you invincible. A sword no one ever escaped from once it was drawn and no one could resist it. The sword is also described in the Tain legend as a glowing bright torch (lightsaber lol?). Cauldron from which no one left unsatisfied (renewable, great source of food?).

Excuse for potential off topic, just wanted to share this. I am too fascinated with this so I even had plan 2 years ago to write some sort of novel situated in this mythic Irish period from the perspective of non "god like" character.

Interesting.

Atlantis was most likely Crete and the Minoan civilization. Not only does it fit with an advanced mediteranean civilization which went under following a flood and volcanic eruption, but it also fits as a sort of 'seeder' of Greek antique civilization. Minoans had writing "Linear A" but then dissapears in Greece for 400 years following invasion of Hellenic tribes (Indo-Europeans). Then it reappears as Linear B, perhaps influenced by discovery of Minoan culture.

Quote:An examination of the Sea Peoples would be remiss if it did not also acknowledge another popular theory: that these people were from the lost city of Atlantis, as identified by Frank Joseph

http://www.phoenician.org/sea_peoples.htm

You are not the only one making this connection.

It's worth keeping in mind that the Minoan culture dissappears around 1450BC and the sea people arrive not much later, mentioned in Egyptian source around 1200BC at which point they must have been strong to attack Egypt.
01-18-2017 01:49 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
nomadbrah, thanks for posting a very interesting topic. I'm very interested in ancient origins and the figure of Jesus. There are various links I want to post because it seems there are many pieces of the puzzle and being a 'truth seeker' I want to put as many pieces together to form a clear picture.

Sea peoples really pulls in the idea of Atlantis and Atlanteans, for which there is clearer evidence in recent years - submerged megalithic architecture, myths and legends all around the world of an antediluvian diaspora, stone paths in Malta leading to the ocean, etc. Graham Hancock and many others (also the work of Dr. Robert Schoch of Boston U, his most recent research into solar induced dark age (SIDA). There was certainly an ancient sea-faring race that had accurate maps and likely created or made use of megalithic temples / observatories. (Oh, Michael Tellinger's work in South Africa is also connected to this!) It's very likely the survivors of that civilization maintained a presence in Europe, and expanded to Africa / Middle East / Jerusalem and even farther east to China where red-haired / blue-eyed mummies have been found.

Have you seen / read any of Michael Tsarion's work? It was just a year ago that I watched his 'Irish Origins of Civilization' which was very insightful. What you're saying ties into this (although you didn't mention him). He also helps distinguish the difference between the different Egyptian sects and what the bloodline differences were that underlay the conflicts (and many assassinations / changes in leadership).





I also recall watching a talk by a very devout Christian American man who went to Jerusalem with his sons and were able to investigate the place of Christ's supposed burial, even gathering evidence (un-coagulated blood!) that they had analyzed by several labs. I need to dig to find the name and the talk(s) but it was very compelling. I do truly believe there are many layers to the true story of Christ. I will find those links and post here once I do. Ah, his name is Ron Wyatt. There's a lot of back and forth in comments, whether he was legit or not. This is not the video I watched but it seems worth investigating for connections to what you're talking about and digging deeper into truth:





I also believe that the genetic differences between r-type and K-type human ancestors is important to note, and having read Koanic Soul's blog / posts which also Matt Forney contributed to (and Texas Arcane) there is a connection between where Neanderthal would have had a stronger presence (Western Europe / Basque, expanded into Northern Africa) vs. the 'Jesus was African' (with dominant Cro Magnon traits) ideas which I've seen bandied about. This is perhaps more tangential to the resources you presented, but I have paid much attention to genetic appearance and related behaviors. Not to mention the melonhead cranial type which also show up in dynastic bloodlines from Egypt and later Europe. Lots of layers... since this is Deep Forum, such topics are open for discussion and drawing parallels is my interest.

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01-18-2017 02:06 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Atlantis predated Minoan civilization. There's also the South American civilizations which had reached their zenith before the SIDA event in ~12,000 BCE. The site of Tiahuanaco has been astro-dated to well before the mass species extinction event at that time. Staying with the theme of Jesus's origins, it seems what we call 'Atlantis' has been around a very long time. There may have also been some factions which strove for education / empowerment of the people and others for domination. In this way, the idea of 'good vs. evil' could have very clear roots. There's also the point about the nephilim / fallen ones which I think is very related. You open up quite a huge door when discussing this topic!

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01-18-2017 02:14 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
I am sorry you guys cannot read Croatian / Bosnian language (or you can?). Semir Osmanagich, author of Bosnian pyramids theory wrote 8 books titled Alternative History, but he wrote on his native Bosnian language. In one of these books he wrote about these mythic Irish period where he talked about all the interesting groups that supposedly funded ancient Ireland. He describes them all as Atlantean descendants, especially Tuathas.
He is researching this area for years and has been met only with scorn from mainstream archeology and history. Even government of Bosnia and local mayors won't fund his excavations campaigns of pyramids and all is currently financed from his pocket or from donations.
Also, one person said that he once met Semir and after some time, Semir indirectly implied that he has been blackmailed several times.

Pretty weird for "simple ridiculous pseudoscience" am I right? I am positively sure there is conspiracy against research of these alternative sources.
There are many things at stake. History would be rewritten, PHDs would be lost, just imagine egyptologists like Hawass crying when all his work fell into water. What about finding truth that Elites stem from earliest days of humanity, opposed to thinking that they started to organize for example in the times of Enlightenment.

This is a hole without bottom. I research these topics for years and still haven't got clue where does it all end. We can even be subjected to disinfo campaign inside the alternative history movement for all we know.

On the same note, recently I got new book from Graham Hancock titled Magicians of the Gods which is a follow up of his old book Fingerprints of the Gods. Currently I have much to study so I didn't immerse myself fully into it, but from what I read at the beginning, he seems to updated his references, pictures, data and more, Graham is never tired. He was even couple of times at Joe Rogan's (watch these interviews).

Here is one free book on Mayas from Semir: http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/WMmain.htm
01-18-2017 02:45 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 12:38 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  One interesting thing. One of the kings of Tuatha, Nuada, was called "Silver Hand". Apparently he lost hand in the duel with enemy folk hero Sreng (member of Fir Bolgs). After the battle physician installed him a silver hand which worked. And later he got new one from flesh and blood! I mean draw your own conclusions, but too me it sounds eerily like some sort of bionic arm.

Also listen to this. Tuathas had four great treasures. Stone that would cry out beneath the king who took the sovereignty of Ireland. Spear which makes you invincible. A sword no one ever escaped from once it was drawn and no one could resist it. The sword is also described in the Tain legend as a glowing bright torch (lightsaber lol?). Cauldron from which no one left unsatisfied (renewable, great source of food?).

Excuse for potential off topic, just wanted to share this. I am too fascinated with this so I even had plan 2 years ago to write some sort of novel situated in this mythic Irish period from the perspective of non "god like" character.

Michael Moorcock wrote the second cycle of the Corum saga based in the stories of Irish folklore.
Fun read if you have time!

In a spanish book about wild speculation of historical mysteries ("Los santos imposibles" by Juan G. Atienza) there were many ideas thrown about such as time travel or future tech related to the stories of the Tuatha de Danaan.
For example, both Lug and his nordic equivalent Odin have a "spear"
-don't know the name of the one wielded by Lug but Odin's was "Gungnir"- that acted in what could be described as a "laser beam".
The cauldron you mentioned if I'm not mistaken-at least in some versions- could also bring people back from the dead or kill them (Futurustic auto-doc pod or regeneration portable pool?)
Interestingly,in the early myths Lug is more a powerful and crafty hero/demigod
than a full fledged celtic animist divine entity, much like the nord gods who were mortal...

Somebody call Young blade for better mythological data !

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(This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 04:47 PM by Elster.)
01-18-2017 04:15 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Since Jesus and Ponitus Pilate were able to have a conversion, it would seem at the very least that Jesus could speak Greek. I doubt a Roman governor would take the time to learn Hebrew/ Aramaic.
01-18-2017 05:34 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Well Jesus wasn't considered to be a Danite, he was born in the tribe of Judah (a Judean). His family merely lived in Galilee in the same sense one can be of African origin but born in America. At a time where Jews were naming their children Greek names he was given a Hebrew one (Greeks didn't do that until they adopted Christianity). As for sounds like Chet and Ayin, the Babylonians and Assyrians didn't use those sounds in their language and they were Semites. The bible does say many accusations were levied against Jesus (including being a bastard child or his miracles being from demons) but no one ever said he wasn't Jewish or born from the Nations.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 07:09 PM by alexdagr81.)
01-18-2017 07:09 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 07:09 PM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  Well Jesus wasn't considered to be a Danite, he was born in the tribe of Judah (a Judean). His family merely lived in Galilee in the same sense one can be of African origin but born in America. At a time where Jews were naming their children Greek names he was given a Hebrew one (Greeks didn't do that until they adopted Christianity). As for sounds like Chet and Ayin, the Babylonians and Assyrians didn't use those sounds in their language and they were Semites. The bible does say many accusations were levied against Jesus (including being a bastard child or his miracles being from demons) but no one ever said he wasn't Jewish or born from the Nations.

Two things to consider, the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus.

His lineage, would be difficult even in those days to trace to David or Judah. His origin, Gallilea, would certainly be easier.

Besides, there was no such thing as jews in those days. There were Judeans of the tribe of Judah, the rest was Israelites, in archeological terms, there was Judea and Samaria and the Philistines.

It's also not so much his ethnicity, which is impossible to prove, but more of his cultural background and his travels. If he had been born and raised in Gallilea, it is quite possible he would have been knowledgeable about Greek culture and philosophy, who knows, maybe he travelled, maybe he really did travel to Britain as the British Israelites claim. Christianity is after all very different from other semittic religions. It has more of an inner quality to it with the focus not on deeds but on intent. In any case, many influential people perhaps believed in British Israelism, which explains the involvement of the British with the zionist movement.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 07:29 PM by nomadbrah.)
01-18-2017 07:23 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
If we're going with the Sea Peoples theory, then Jews are Indo-European too, as they are theorized to be descended from the Habiru (Hebrew) which invaded Lower Egypt, which is one theory on how the Hebrews ended up enslaved by Egypt after the Pharaohs took Lower Egypt back.

The term Habiru was thought to originally refer specifically to nomads from the Fertile Crescent (lending credence to Abraham's journey from Ur), but has since been found to be used interchangeably with the Sea Peoples, thus demonstrating a looser term meaning foreign invaders.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Habiru
http://history.rutgers.edu/honors-papers...ation/file

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01-18-2017 08:10 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Nah, Jews are not Indo-European, obviously as their language is Semitic.

Jesus is clearly Semitic through and through, his religion, his values, his culture as represented by the Bible and the Christian faith are about as anti Indo-European and anti-Greek as you can get.
01-18-2017 09:12 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 08:10 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  If we're going with the Sea Peoples theory, then Jews are Indo-European too, as they are theorized to be descended from the Habiru (Hebrew) which invaded Lower Egypt, which is one theory on how the Hebrews ended up enslaved by Egypt after the Pharaohs took Lower Egypt back.

The term Habiru was thought to originally refer specifically to nomads from the Fertile Crescent (lending credence to Abraham's journey from Ur), but has since been found to be used interchangeably with the Sea Peoples, thus demonstrating a looser term meaning foreign invaders.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Habiru
http://history.rutgers.edu/honors-papers...ation/file

That's actually the exact jist of British Israelism, except they also conflate them with Scythians and Cimmerians.

The term "jew" is meaningless though in biblical times. It's Israelites in the Bible, only the tribe of Judah are judeans, and in reality there is the Kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Samariah along with Phoenicians, Philistines, Sea Peoples etc.
01-18-2017 09:26 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 09:12 PM)kavi Wrote:  Nah, Jews are not Indo-European, obviously as their language is Semitic.

Jesus is clearly Semitic through and through, his religion, his values, his culture as represented by the Bible and the Christian faith are about as anti Indo-European and anti-Greek as you can get.

1.7% of Scots speak Scottish Gaelic. The rest speak English. Does that make Scots Englishmen? No.

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/gaelic...-1-3903467

Language =/= race.

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01-18-2017 09:58 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 07:23 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  
(01-18-2017 07:09 PM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  Well Jesus wasn't considered to be a Danite, he was born in the tribe of Judah (a Judean). His family merely lived in Galilee in the same sense one can be of African origin but born in America. At a time where Jews were naming their children Greek names he was given a Hebrew one (Greeks didn't do that until they adopted Christianity). As for sounds like Chet and Ayin, the Babylonians and Assyrians didn't use those sounds in their language and they were Semites. The bible does say many accusations were levied against Jesus (including being a bastard child or his miracles being from demons) but no one ever said he wasn't Jewish or born from the Nations.

Two things to consider, the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus.

His lineage, would be difficult even in those days to trace to David or Judah. His origin, Gallilea, would certainly be easier.

Besides, there was no such thing as jews in those days. There were Judeans of the tribe of Judah, the rest was Israelites, in archeological terms, there was Judea and Samaria and the Philistines.

It's also not so much his ethnicity, which is impossible to prove, but more of his cultural background and his travels. If he had been born and raised in Gallilea, it is quite possible he would have been knowledgeable about Greek culture and philosophy, who knows, maybe he travelled, maybe he really did travel to Britain as the British Israelites claim. Christianity is after all very different from other semittic religions. It has more of an inner quality to it with the focus not on deeds but on intent. In any case, many influential people perhaps believed in British Israelism, which explains the involvement of the British with the zionist movement.

Leaving aside British Israelism:

Being born and raised in Galilee in a period of time during which Greek culture and philosophy existed does not prove Jesus was knowledgeable about Greek culture and philosophy. A little clicking around actually suggests that the Jews hated the idea of Greek philosophy influencing their religion. Just as they'd been conquered by the Romans ahead of Jesus's birth, they'd previously been conquered by the Greeks -- and Greek culture (in the form of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt) began to influence the younger generations of Jews. As this Jewish history page puts it...

Quote:In 3515, Eretz Israel was under the sway of the Egyptian Ptolemaic kings. Ptolemy II Philadelphus, a great lover of books and wisdom, painstakingly acquired a vast library. Knowing of the great fame of the Torah, he ordered 72 sages to come to Alexandria. When they arrived, he isolated each one to prevent collaboration, and demanded that they translate the Torah into Greek. Divinely inspired, they all provided identical translations, especially for verses that if understood literally could easily be misconstrued. For example, the verse which literally reads "And they saw the G‑d of Israel" (Exodus 24:10) was translated "And they saw the glory of the G‑d of Israel," which is indeed figuratively accurate, for no human can see G‑d directly.

While the assimilated Jews of Alexandria rejoiced at the opportunity to display Jewish wisdom to the Greeks, the rabbis viewed this event as an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people, for putting holy words in the hands of non-Jews who did not understand the Torah’s inner meanings turned the Jewish Bible into ordinary literature. Sadly, history has borne out the sages’ fears. Christians have distorted and falsified Scripture to comply with their own theology and justify their persecution of the Jewish people. Even now, missionaries seek to entrap Jews with spurious interpretations of the Bible.

...

The ancient Greeks were a brilliant people whose advances in mathematics, science, literature, philosophy, architecture, and government form the basis of much of Western civilization and thought today. The Olympic Games, for example, feature many of the sporting events of ancient Greece, while the Olympic Flame is lit at Mount Olympus, in Greece, signaling the beginning of competition. Alexander, a great proponent of Greek culture, spread it throughout his vast conquests, building Greek cities containing vast libraries, beautiful temples, and impressive gymnasiums.

By and large, the conquered nations welcomed the Greeks' superior and very attractive culture, and had no problem incorporating the Greek gods into their pantheons of idols. The Jews, however, viewed Greek influence as a major threat. Jewish youth flocked to the entertainments, at which athletes competed naked. Some Jews even attempted to undo their circumcisions surgically, which the Greeks encouraged because they considered circumcision a blemish on the supposedly perfect human body. Even worse, after sporting events participants offered sacrifices to the Greek gods. Following such practices, a number of Jews adopted Greek names and mores, studied Greek literature and philosophy, and cast off Torah observance. These Jews became known as Misyavnim, or Hellenists, and looked with disdain at their religious, less modern brethren. Jews also moved to Greek centers, such as Alexandria, a major Hellenist city where Jews attained great affluence and rapidly assimilated. Alexandria was also the location of Chonyo's temple, where Jews offered sacrifices to G‑d, violating the law of sacrificing outside the Bais Hamikdash. This temple lasted several hundred years.

That is, the Jews as a people in Palestine weren't too fucking keen on heterodoxy -- especially Greek heterodoxy. Greek philosophy was much, much more secular in nature than Jewish priests could handle. These motherfuckers were seriously debating whether you could lean on an animal for sacrifice and not thereby make yourself unclean, there would've been a fucking civil war if an entire region of Palestine was out advocating a bit of Marcus Aurelius.

For what it's worth, the Bible records Jesus at age 12, having been lost by Mary and Joseph in Jerusalem, sitting in the temple courts answering questions with authority. No small feat, if true: again, these are the dudes who argued for fucking months about whether you can walk more than 500 metres on the Sabbath. (That Jewish history page records an incident where God himself is said to have spoken from Heaven giving them the correct interpretation of a law and some of the rabbis still wouldn't accept it, thinking it was a test.) Allowing for the fact it's hard to find corroboration for such an incident, a kid blowing Greek-influenced Judaism or even outright Cynicism or Stoicism in a bunch of rabbis' faces is more likely to have his ass kicked in those circumstances.

So, no. If Jesus was influenced by Greek philosophy in a marked way he would've had to have been brought up for most of his young life in Alexandria or somewhere the Jews had congregated outside Palestine - something which is unlikely given he was just a carpenter's son, i.e. part of the middle class at best.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2017 10:28 PM by Paracelsus.)
01-18-2017 10:23 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-18-2017 02:14 PM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  Atlantis predated Minoan civilization. There's also the South American civilizations which had reached their zenith before the SIDA event in ~12,000 BCE. The site of Tiahuanaco has been astro-dated to well before the mass species extinction event at that time. Staying with the theme of Jesus's origins, it seems what we call 'Atlantis' has been around a very long time. There may have also been some factions which strove for education / empowerment of the people and others for domination. In this way, the idea of 'good vs. evil' could have very clear roots. There's also the point about the nephilim / fallen ones which I think is very related. You open up quite a huge door when discussing this topic!

Thanks, your post reminded me of something. Linguistic and archaeological evidence show that Atlantis was probably the cities in the Gulf of Mexico, which had the same shape as Atlantis was described to have.

In the Bible, it speaks of the "Days of Peleg", when the world was broken up. Neal Adams has made some convincing videos showing that the earth was once much smaller, and the continents fit together beautifully, hand in glove. The expansion of the earth produced the oceans. This expansion explains both the "Days of Peleg" and the "sinking of Atlantis". It did sink... over the horizon.

Recent news about glitches in the GPS satellite networks shows that the earth is still expanding at a measurable rate. Seems especially pronounced around Australia.
01-19-2017 05:08 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
Great topic and nice discussion. A few personal thoughts:

First, I've always been interested in the whole 10 "Lost" Israelite tribes being a part of European origins idea mentioned by OP. From what I've seen and read, I don't think there is any definitive link, as the Bible loses track of them when they are carried away to Assyria in 721 BC, but it wouldn't exactly be unfathomable. Some were blended into half-Jew Samaritans, some remained in the southern tribes (Anna the prophetess in Luke 2 is of the tribe Asher), but many would have resettled elsewhere in the Assyrian empire, but could have later moved on to the northwest. The connections you have pointed out regarding possible connections centering around Dan and Irish/Atlantean/Sea Peoples cannot be ruled out, at least from what I understand.

Second, I see no reason to doubt Jesus being of the tribe of Judah, through king David, not of the tribe of Dan (even though his hometown would have been in the traditional territory of Dan, though there was no trace of Danites in that region for 700 years at that point), except for a generally skeptic view of Scripture on the whole, which I reject. The Roman province of Palestine had faced 300 years of Greek/Roman influence at that point, so Jesus was certainly familiar with Greco-Roman culture. In fact, the purely Greek-style city of Sepphoris (no Jewish origin, it was founded by Greeks in the area) was 4 miles from Nazareth--as a tekton (craftsman/carpenter) Jesus likely worked there a lot and interacted with plenty of Gentiles, or at least Hellenized Jews.

Finally, as for Jesus having visited Great Britain, the traditions of Glastonbury and of Joseph of Arimathea, and of the tin trade are all fascinating. Totally plausible and I would like to think so, but I'm not sure they could ever be proven.

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01-23-2017 10:52 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
The British Israel material is pretty good, it has a good method for interpreting Bible prophecy, etc. Up until 1948, British Israel was focused on lifestyle, how people could live better. Very compatible with neo-masculinity. Then the state of Israel was founded, and the British Royals pulled the plug on it, defunded it, and took away its institutions. Once that happened, it was quickly coopted by the Ordo Templi Orientis, who mixed it up with tax protester garbage, some Talmudic stuff, and created Christian Identity. The OTO was rather the opposite of a Christian organization. This was the same time Scientology was getting off the ground, Jack Parson's was doing his wierd occult stuff, etc. Same wellspring.

There is one main flaw with British Israel. It is very good at tracking the migrations of Israel up to the area around Ukraine, up to 1200 years ago. Then it suddenly loses track. All British Israel material linking Israel to the European nations from that date forward, is extremely hand-wavy and speculative.

Now, the date and location where the trail goes cold is very interesting. Why? Because it is the same date and location where the story of the Khazars converting to Judaism comes from. New genealogy tests show that Ashkenazi and other Jews are more closely related to each other than to any other race. If the Khazar/Ashkenazi are actually the 10 lost tribes, (although they insist they were never lost) then the mystery is solved.

There are some extremely good reason why British people would mistake themselves for Israelites, but that is a topic for another post.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2017 03:32 AM by TheMost.)
01-24-2017 03:28 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-24-2017 03:28 AM)TheMost Wrote:  The British Israel material is pretty good, it has a good method for interpreting Bible prophecy, etc. Up until 1948, British Israel was focused on lifestyle, how people could live better. Very compatible with neo-masculinity. Then the state of Israel was founded, and the British Royals pulled the plug on it, defunded it, and took away its institutions. Once that happened, it was quickly coopted by the Ordo Templi Orientis, who mixed it up with tax protester garbage, some Talmudic stuff, and created Christian Identity. The OTO was rather the opposite of a Christian organization. This was the same time Scientology was getting off the ground, Jack Parson's was doing his wierd occult stuff, etc. Same wellspring.

There is one main flaw with British Israel. It is very good at tracking the migrations of Israel up to the area around Ukraine, up to 1200 years ago. Then it suddenly loses track. All British Israel material linking Israel to the European nations from that date forward, is extremely hand-wavy and speculative.

Now, the date and location where the trail goes cold is very interesting. Why? Because it is the same date and location where the story of the Khazars converting to Judaism comes from. New genealogy tests show that Ashkenazi and other Jews are more closely related to each other than to any other race. If the Khazar/Ashkenazi are actually the 10 lost tribes, (although they insist they were never lost) then the mystery is solved.

There are some extremely good reason why British people would mistake themselves for Israelites, but that is a topic for another post.

Interesting, could you share some of this "tracing" from British Israelism.

As for the Azkenazi, their genetic affinity with other semittes is a question of interpretation, they are certainly closer to them than the average European, but they are also very close to Azeri, Tatar and other Turkic tribes in the Caucasus.
01-24-2017 10:12 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
I agree that DNA testing is highly suspect. Every major DNA testing outfit is owned or controlled by Jews. So, is it possible that the DNA results are being fudged to go with whatever narrative they want to project? I think so. However, the modern DNA tests show Ashkenazi and Sephardi are genetically closer to each other than any other race. Even if that is just a narrative, it does fit the Khazar story, combined with the tracing work that the British Israelites did. If the Khazars were already Israel, the "conversion" would have just been a re-education and re-awakening to their ethnic origins.

British Israelism tracing... One of the better books is by E Raymond Capt, Missing Links Discovered in Assyrian Tablets. The other one is Stephen M Collins, The “Lost” Ten Tribes of Israel…Found!
01-24-2017 10:59 AM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
What would anyone's recommendation be for genetic testing for ancestry. Before my parents die I almost wanted them to check it out so I could see and not lose my privacy (theoretically).
01-24-2017 04:07 PM
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RE: Was Jesus a Greek? Archeological evidence of British Israelism
(01-24-2017 04:07 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  What would anyone's recommendation be for genetic testing for ancestry. Before my parents die I almost wanted them to check it out so I could see and not lose my privacy (theoretically).

I used genebase

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01-24-2017 07:11 PM
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