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Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
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MrRoundtree Offline
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Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I think the game was released before 2004 but was way ahead of its time.

I remember reading this article in 2002 when I tried to understand the game, I didn't like it at first.

http://archives.insertcredit.com/features/dreaming2/
Read all parts and keep in mind the game was released before facebook. This article focuses first on the post-modern elements of the game, the game is kind of whacky in a sense and received a lot of criticism but after reading it it made me appreciate it for what it was.

Then the 3rd game was released and a lot more people got to appreciate MGS2.

And most recently this article, gets back to a lot of the key elements of the story of the game who are accurate in today's world.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-0...video-game

I'm really surprised at how this post-modern game meshes well with the red-pillway of thinking. Actually thinking about it most of the recent culture war stuff and red-pill thinking was already in my mind way before, experienced in this game.

Metal Gear was a weapon designed to launch nuclear missiles in the first game from anywhere on the planet, it was a mech equipped with a rail gun hidden on Shadow Moses Island. The game had simple gameplay, the goal of the game was clear yet the dialogues and the plot was extremely well executed and made you question who exactly were the bad guys and why you were performing your duty as a soldier. The game went ahead and criticized nuclear weapons and genetic engineering.

Notably, with the fake news stories that we are seeing today and how there is a need to control information for governements with so much data released today, the Metal Gear of the second game was a giant server hidden under an oil offshore station (Big hell) capable of processing any information on the planet in order for the Patriots to keep control of what is going on and releasing the news, the science discoveries and the propaganda they want.
The main character is also different from the first game, Raiden is supposed to represent the player, you are not Snake anymore, you are a nobody and you experience MGS2 as a character with no backstory. Raiden represents the player. The Big Shell mirrors Shadow Moses because that's what it was designed to do - the Patriots, who control the AI system, made the sequel the fans wanted. The impression it leaves on the gamer is unforgettable, but I will always remember this quote from the game:


"In the current, digitized world, trivial information is accumulating every second, preserved in all its triteness. Never fading, always accessible. Rumors about petty issues, misinterpretations, slander...All this junk data preserved in an unfiltered state, growing at an alarming rate. It will only slow down social progress, reduce the rate of evolution."

MGS2 is a game that makes you question everything.

Anyone else played this great game and feel with the current state of the world it was way ahead of its time and has to be considered a masterpiece?
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2017 10:08 PM by MrRoundtree.)
02-06-2017 09:41 PM
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Jones Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
Played this game about 11 years ago. One of the best games ever, and really got me thinking about the true purpose of humanity at a young age, and that purpose was to pass on our genes and teachings to the future generations. Ahead of it's time, a masterpiece for sure. As a game, I'd take MGS1 over MGS2 though.

The Codec conversation you mention reminds me of some posts on rooshv.com, The Hegelian Dialectic, Nationalism is a Trap, and the Future of The USA, Russia, and The New World Order posts in particular.

There is so much information that is preserved now thanks to digitization. The "Patriots" are trying to control the context of this excess information build-up; taking the truth about humans, and the meanings of those truths, to be used for future generations. It's all about having power over humanity's thoughts and behaviour.

They do make an interesting point about how people will tell them selves "truths" to make themselves feel better, even if they are not true - "body-positive" people for example.

Here's the ending of MGS2 through an "red-pill" lens; how it relates to us on the forum and it's practical use to us. To summarize from the end of the game:

We are a copy, or combination, of someone else's DNA. Our initial place in the world and initial role in society is undetermined by us, and the memories we have before being, "red-pilled", are burdens we all have to carry, but we make choices to decide who we are by interpreting the world.

Our brain is really what interprets "reality" as real or fiction. We make our choices by looking at the meaning behind the words (instead of taking words as truth alone). Most of what is told to us that's real, is actually fiction (fake news? our "blue-pill" mindset).

Our choices should help us cultivate the person we want to see passed on to future generations - through our genes/DNA and through the culture and teachings of life we pass on as well. We must both build the future, and keep the past alive.
02-07-2017 11:12 AM
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Nascimento Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
The last few hours of that game was the only time I've ever had my mental state left in limbo. I ought to play it again, now that I know what to expect and what to look out for story wise. It was a great game.
02-07-2017 01:01 PM
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sterling_archer Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
Amazing game even though I liked the first one more. These two have all I ever wanted, swords, cyborg ninjas, badass characters and guns, amazing plot, etc. Hideo Kojima was and still is a God of games.
02-07-2017 02:44 PM
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rapaz12 Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
Hideo has always been ahead of things. Before I played that game, I had no clue that a videogame story could have such depth and rival or perhaps even surpass the level of an Oscar worthy film.
02-08-2017 04:47 PM
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NilNisiOptimum Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
The one question from the end ing the the game that always stick with related to popular trends. I'm paraphrasing from 15 year old memories at this point, but it raises the question of how do songs or movies become top hits. This was at a time when Britney Spears and boy bands were still selling multiple millions of albums. Were these songs hits because everyone requested them on the radio, or did were they requested because it's all you ever heard on the radio?

Raider may have been a complete bitch, but that MGS2 still stands out as one of the best games of all time in my mind.

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02-08-2017 04:51 PM
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EDantes Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I have a feeling that Kojima was somewhat onto the notion of there being a movement in the US between corporations, mass media, and the federal government to centralize power and control over information, and was using the game as a metaphor, since stating it outright would just get him branded a 'conspiracy nut'.
02-14-2017 12:27 PM
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sterling_archer Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
And that theme you noticed is actually prevalent through all his games. Remember guns of patriots and "war economy"? Or Metal Gear Rising (Raiden main character) and his "Trump like", big business antagonist?
02-14-2017 12:44 PM
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Syberpunk Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I shared exactly the praises of this game and series many felt here when I played it (MGS2) as a 11 year old with no internet, I got it even at that age (this game was very disliked at the time, but it was always my favourite on the series aside from the 1st).

Incredible masculine moments and story and feeling/atmosphere.

Its ending thoughts are still genuinely haunting and eerie, incredibly red pill. Loved how you viewed Solid Snake as an outsider and a utter badass, not the depressing sad sack in MGS4. I wish they had continued the cold techno feel from the first two, instead of stumbling around the Middle East and Europe.

Astonishing:





The fist bump and pulling Otacon together, slow mo walk out:





This was a jaw dropper scene, incredible direction, music and insane voice acting, pulls revolver, "Given the right story anyone can be Solid Snake" "no luck only cutting edge technology" "hamming it up absorbed in your own misfortune"





However, I'm afraid in retrospect the series as a whole is not all shine, it saddens to me to as it is often pushing an incredible amount of indifference (in literal lecture form) to communism and marxism, moral relativism, war is bad, patriotism is a waste when you look at it with more hardened eyes (especially in the latter entries) Now as a adult with greater knowledge of the world, I didn't see a lot of classical quotes on Rome and Greece wither, like a lot of Marx stuff, history only seems to exist for the last 200 years, leaving things out, lying by omission which is something we see everyday as often reported on this forum. It's all very "proletariat and the [/u]revolution of the people".

I have a formerly great now nasty family member who I introduced to the series when he and I were young and would play it together and he came back from his humanities college course trying to argue politics me using Solidus Snake (Mr. Former President) as a revolutionary against the evils of the boom-bust capitalism society we have (FUCKING CRINGE) really soured my memories and opinions of the series.

Did I make my relative a marxist?

Was it just making a person educated beyond his intelligence more suggestible to his ideas and influenced his life/career trajectory? Maybe....

Hideo Kojima is a bit of a ass, who's ego has swollen his head, he had a great editor/co-writer for MGS1-3 and looking back it shows.

George Lucas syndrome strikes again.

Razorfist made me change my opinion of him and I was the biggest MGS fan you could meet, he is beloved by the industry to even though he is useless and self indulgent with money and project managment, I gained a lot of respect for Razor for being critical and one of the only ones to be, because glowing coverage over him is everywhere and he's a bit of a hack too...is the praise (((ideas))) maybe more so than gameplay? Yes even in Japan, their influence is felt.

Konami was fired because they were a business not his patron for the arts.

Despite all the criticisms of the series, MGS2, it's still one of my favourite pieces of media, that influenced me.

I disliked how they seemed to focus on Big Boss so much later in the series (MGS3 is incredible, but it was all the story that need to be told on that character and make it too relativistic)

Similarities to Lost:
Absolutely savage on MGS/ grade school politics and Kojima:





Funny MGS5/MGS2 review and practices:




There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this, the greatest thread post in history follows in the link below, REQUIRED READING. READ TO END.

Here you go, There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this

"I write only when inspiration strikes," he replied. "Fortunately it strikes every morning at nine o'clock sharp.

OUR LIVES ARE WRITTEN IN PEN NOT PENCIL, not because we should want to forget but remember, so be absolutely sure about what you write.
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2018 11:00 AM by Syberpunk.)
07-27-2018 10:00 AM
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Contagion Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I used to love this game. Though, I'm kind of surprised that a lot of people took some kind of deep meaning out of it. I always just looked at it as a really cool video game.

Somebody on here mentioned one of their friends used this video game as some kind of argument against evil capitalists or something like that. I can say I never found that kind of deep meaning in the game, though it is pretty nostalgic to look back on it.
07-28-2018 01:39 PM
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I thought Hideo was trolling with Raiden as the most effiminate looking man to have been ever conceived as a main protagnist in this game as a stark contrast to Snake.

Then I saw this thread and rest my case:
https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-69014.html

Later in the game they made him naked making it an absolute farce while at the same time at various points he tries to break the fourth wall. You're playing too much, turn off the console.

I noticed throughout the story in various Metal Gear games the US is behind some really dark secrets. A contrast to the recurring theme in Call of Duty or many first person shooter along the lines of 'Murica gots to save the wurld those goddamn Russians gassed Vietnam with Nova 6!'
07-29-2018 08:57 AM
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Richard Turpin Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
This takes me back. Love these games, but like many, the switch from Snake to Raiden killed it for me. I can't remember there being any spoilers back then, so the change of protagonist came as a complete (and unwelcome) surprise.

Nothing beats the first one; the invisible ninja corridor carnage scene, swapping playstation ports to beat Psycho Mantis!* Those were the days.

* Sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone, 20 years later!

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07-30-2018 04:30 AM
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Syberpunk Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
Metal Gear film is on now for real.

This man was a no name before he directed Kong Skull Island last and has been flying between LA and Japan and became good friends with Kojima (who's emphatic endorsement he got). He talks a great game, clearly a fan, possible multiple time periods (I'm unsure of this to be honest). Glad they waited so it mightn'd be a hack job. Though its Sony (of Ghostbusters fame) and yet the produced Blade Runner 2049 as well, so I don't know what to think.

People have talked about it for years, and it has always been a pipe dream. I'd much prefer a TV series for obvious reasons, a season in Shadow Moses, infilitrating a facility, with all the small moments? sign me up!

Here's the interview from IGN (July 2018) with the director and concept art:




There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this, the greatest thread post in history follows in the link below, REQUIRED READING. READ TO END.

Here you go, There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this

"I write only when inspiration strikes," he replied. "Fortunately it strikes every morning at nine o'clock sharp.

OUR LIVES ARE WRITTEN IN PEN NOT PENCIL, not because we should want to forget but remember, so be absolutely sure about what you write.
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2018 01:05 PM by Syberpunk.)
07-30-2018 12:45 PM
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TravelerKai Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
MGS and MGS2 were actually good ones. The rest got progressively worse as Hideo Kojima's effeminate faggotry and sophomoric behavior was allowed to destroy whatever semblance of story, the game series ever had.

Not sure if you could call anything inside a MGS game redpilled, but the closest thing to that would be the corporatism, globalism, and private military industrial complex issues, prevalent throughout. Syberpunk makes a good point too about Kojima's overtly Marxist garbage that exists in probably every title if you pay attention to it. Like Rageaholic's first video posted ^ discusses, Kojima's political knowledge and ideas are extremely juvenile. Japanese people are not exactly known for being remarkably knowledgeable on geo-political matters to begin with. Their inherit ethnocentrism and xenophobia makes certain of that. Quick someone name a RVFer Japanese guy with insights on politics! Or anything at all! Have we ever had one? I cannot recall one. We have a handful of Chinese guys though. Just sayin'....

Kojima has mental illness and the original games tied his hands alot. He had actual professional writers and others working with him, not to mention Konami kept his ass in check, something he hated with a passion and why for years there was not a game made. That is a lot of the reason why those first few games were actually very good. The last bunch are pretty much 100% Kojima.

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07-30-2018 02:48 PM
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
(07-30-2018 02:48 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  MGS and MGS2 were actually good ones. The rest got progressively worse as Hideo Kojima's effeminate faggotry and sophomoric behavior was allowed to destroy whatever semblance of story, the game series ever had.

Not sure if you could call anything inside a MGS game redpilled, but the closest thing to that would be the corporatism, globalism, and private military industrial complex issues, prevalent throughout. Syberpunk makes a good point too about Kojima's overtly Marxist garbage that exists in probably every title if you pay attention to it. Like Rageaholic's first video posted ^ discusses, Kojima's political knowledge and ideas are extremely juvenile. Japanese people are not exactly known for being remarkably knowledgeable on geo-political matters to begin with. Their inherit ethnocentrism and xenophobia makes certain of that. Quick someone name a RVFer Japanese guy with insights on politics! Or anything at all! Have we ever had one? I cannot recall one. We have a handful of Chinese guys though. Just sayin'....

Kojima has mental illness and the original games tied his hands alot. He had actual professional writers and others working with him, not to mention Konami kept his ass in check, something he hated with a passion and why for years there was not a game made. That is a lot of the reason why those first few games were actually very good. The last bunch are pretty much 100% Kojima.

The retconning after MGS2 really hampered what was the great potential for a masterful end to the series. MGS2 literally ends with everybody (including the once enemies) fucked over and a heroic Solid Snake ready to rescue a child and take the fight to the Patriots/Deep State/Illumininati (who have become amorphous entity), more of intangible, omnipresent enemy that has been dead for 100 years yet still somehow in effect, you begin wonder where, how could they conclude this? it sounded so fascinating/haunting and could have gotten unique in the best way.

The best cliffhanger. But in a sense it can't be answered and was never supposed to, the series could have ended here, with a great message/capstone and maybe it should have. The series had said all that needed to be said.





Surreal and alien, the power level here, is it Skynet or Orwell and maybe both, and its hard to argue with the shit we tell ourselves "Not your fault, not my fault, be nice but beat out the competition":





Holy Hell.

Well they solved it though pretty severe retconning, and having everybody you knew in the series being someone important (large retconning is a fucking trope I hate with a firey passion, only in small doses, does it work, lowered the Patriots power level in MGS4 too. Big Boss being alive and turning up at the ending because Kojima wanted it?!


You're right TravelerKai, he could be more coherent if he bothered, MGS1 and 2 are my favourites as well. I love 3 (the prequel set in the 60's) too, because that was a great one off as well and Big Boss should have stayed a one off (it kept the mystery too of his demise there as well, but you understand just enough of the motives all the same)

Such a waste, there's good in MGS4, but the potential wasted is sort of unforgivable.

Not going to lie but when he wakes up in the quiet of the empty room, with the tape running, I can vividly remember my 13 year old selves stomach dropped. I knew he had effed up, too good to be true.




There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this, the greatest thread post in history follows in the link below, REQUIRED READING. READ TO END.

Here you go, There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this

"I write only when inspiration strikes," he replied. "Fortunately it strikes every morning at nine o'clock sharp.

OUR LIVES ARE WRITTEN IN PEN NOT PENCIL, not because we should want to forget but remember, so be absolutely sure about what you write.
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2018 03:59 PM by Syberpunk.)
07-30-2018 03:28 PM
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loremipsum Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
MGS2 is so good. While as an older I see many faults like the simple level design and the pacing, I also can appreciate the
writing and plot way more. Kojima must have been on acid.
The 4th one was a fucking mess and so is TPP. Such a shame they used the best stealth mechanics ever on an empty
and copypasted sandbox desert.
07-30-2018 03:53 PM
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
I was reminded of this for the ending of the series:

[Image: mgs4em7u.jpg]

There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this, the greatest thread post in history follows in the link below, REQUIRED READING. READ TO END.

Here you go, There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this

"I write only when inspiration strikes," he replied. "Fortunately it strikes every morning at nine o'clock sharp.

OUR LIVES ARE WRITTEN IN PEN NOT PENCIL, not because we should want to forget but remember, so be absolutely sure about what you write.
07-30-2018 05:23 PM
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Syberpunk Offline
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RE: Metal Gear Solid 2: A game ahead of its time?
[Image: 1549592044386.jpg]

Whole series was worth it just for this.

There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this, the greatest thread post in history follows in the link below, REQUIRED READING. READ TO END.

Here you go, There is nothing else you will ever need to read on self improvement, but this

"I write only when inspiration strikes," he replied. "Fortunately it strikes every morning at nine o'clock sharp.

OUR LIVES ARE WRITTEN IN PEN NOT PENCIL, not because we should want to forget but remember, so be absolutely sure about what you write.
02-11-2019 01:17 PM
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