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The Jordan Peterson thread
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Thot Leader Offline
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Post: #2676
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 01:54 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Lots of people have it out for Vox and I don't really get why. Lots of people in that IQ range tend to have the same kind of dickish personality. Hell, I know I do. Just brush it off and ignore it, because the stuff they say is unique, interesting, and valuable.

I agree he's unique and interesting (and clearly very smart). But I think you're glossing over genuine flaws in the man's thinking. It's not just his dickish personality, it's his repeatedly saying "if you don't buy my argument, it's because it's beyond your grasp because your IQ is so much lower than my own." Weak, intellectually dishonest. I'm most likely one of his "midwits" but I would be hesitant to dismiss a lower IQ person's difference of opinion as purely a matter of cognitive deficiency.

I don't dispute JBP's IQ may be "only" 124. My problem is with the assumptions Vox's argument requires, then his immediate dismissal of anyone who questions this.

Like debeguiled pointed out, Vox can be all over the place at times. The leaps he makes with the law school "evidence" fit this pattern. I've never read his fiction (maybe I should give it a shot) but I find his blog and his livestreams not entirely brilliant (notice the verbal tics, "umm" every other sentence sometimes).

Most importantly, if only the cognitive elite can understand Vox's arguments, then who the fuck is his target audience? The 0.1% who are able to understand him?

EDIT: Maybe his audience includes people who want to believe they are part of the elite who are able to understand Vox's arguments.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 01:23 PM by Thot Leader.)
12-31-2018 12:56 PM
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The Catalyst Offline
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Post: #2677
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 12:56 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 01:54 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Lots of people have it out for Vox and I don't really get why. Lots of people in that IQ range tend to have the same kind of dickish personality. Hell, I know I do. Just brush it off and ignore it, because the stuff they say is unique, interesting, and valuable.

I agree he's unique and interesting (and clearly very smart). But I think you're glossing over genuine flaws in the man's thinking. It's not just his dickish personality, it's his repeatedly saying "if you don't buy my argument, it's because it's beyond your grasp because your IQ is so much lower than my own." Weak, intellectually dishonest. I'm most likely one of his "midwits" but I would be hesitant to dismiss a lower IQ person's difference of opinion as purely a matter of cognitive deficiency.

I don't dispute JBP's IQ may be "only" 124. My problem is with the assumptions Vox's argument requires, then his immediate dismissal of anyone who questions this.

Like debeguiled pointed out, Vox can be all over the place at times. The leaps he makes with the law school "evidence" fit this pattern. I've never read his fiction (maybe I should give it a shot) but I find his blog and his livestreams not entirely brilliant (notice the verbal tics, "umm" every other sentence sometimes). Most importantly, if only the cognitive elite can understand Vox's arguments, then who the fuck is his target audience? The 0.1% who are able to understand him?

Well think of it this way. He's not trying to be persuasive, he's just revealing information to people who can already understand him. Preaching to the choir if you will.

Under this framework it's totally understandable to not waste time engaging with doubters. The manifestation of this is saying "people are too dumb to get it". People "in the know" who "aren't too dumb" to get it understand this is not an argument but realise this explains a lot.

Don't let it put you off if you don't get it. Once/if you get it you will realise how annoying it is trying to explain/break it down for people who don't.

Edit: This is similar to Roosh's philosophy of "I don't debate, I fornicate!"

Edit 2: >I'm most likely one of his "midwits" but I would be hesitant to dismiss a lower IQ person's difference of opinion as purely a matter of cognitive deficiency.

To him it is pretty obvious it's not a difference in opinion but rather people not understanding the point he's making.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 01:08 PM by The Catalyst.)
12-31-2018 01:05 PM
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Post: #2678
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 12:56 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 01:54 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Lots of people have it out for Vox and I don't really get why. Lots of people in that IQ range tend to have the same kind of dickish personality. Hell, I know I do. Just brush it off and ignore it, because the stuff they say is unique, interesting, and valuable.

I agree he's unique and interesting (and clearly very smart). But I think you're glossing over genuine flaws in the man's thinking. It's not just his dickish personality, it's his repeatedly saying "if you don't buy my argument, it's because it's beyond your grasp because your IQ is so much lower than my own." Weak, intellectually dishonest. I'm most likely one of his "midwits" but I would be hesitant to dismiss a lower IQ person's difference of opinion as purely a matter of cognitive deficiency.

That thinking is the mark of someone who isn't actually that smart. Every extremely high IQ person I've met is cocky about things they do know about and is more reserved on topics they don't know about. They generally recognize that they've got specific areas of expertise and stay within their lanes.

There's a reason why there's certain game topics you don't see me comment on. For example I've simply never been interested in doing chicks up the butt so I simply don't comment on anything to do with anal sex: I have zero of the experience I'd need to comment intelligently on the topic.

People like Vox have no such cognizance of their limitations. They know everything about every topic.



Vox strikes me as the kind of person who, were it not trendier to hate Rick and Morty, would fantasize about how he's just like Rick.
12-31-2018 02:32 PM
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Post: #2679
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 11:07 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Probably 'bout 5? Not like I've ever really tested any of them, but I know what the really, really top intellects look like, and they don't look a damn thing like Peterson.

Ok, did you notice something after having met those 5 individuals ?
I don't know, some commonalities, anything which stood out .. ?
12-31-2018 02:54 PM
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Post: #2680
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 01:05 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  Under this framework it's totally understandable to not waste time engaging with doubters. The manifestation of this is saying "people are too dumb to get it". People "in the know" who "aren't too dumb" to get it understand this is not an argument but realise this explains a lot.


Then why does he, as he has admitted himself, load his arguments with midwit and gamma bait just to trick lesser wits to respond, so he can say, see, I knew you would say that?

Why did he spend the first five chapters of his Peterson book responding to random anonymous Peterson fans from comment sections across the web?

There is so much about Day that is not related to how well he puts together an academic argument and much more about context.

Why is he wasting his time talking about this?

Why does he engage with these type of people?

Why does he try to be bad ass and say things like, "Yeah, I don't give a fuck."

Early on in this thread I said that he was so lightweight sometimes, I bet he will soon be posting pictures of his wife and saying she is hotter than Peterson's.

It was a joke.

A few pages later, it is exactly what he did.

That was his take down.

At least he didn't say his dad could beat up Peterson's.

I am glad there are super smart people out there and grateful for their contributions to society.

At the same time, it seems like there is a disconnectedness for many of them bordering on mental illness (And this was mentioned to me as well in a PM from an astute member.) where they follow their own logic trails and personal obsessions wherever they lead with a laser like focus, and can't see they are being weird or that they are tilting at windmills.

In some ways, their intelligence is like a set of prison bars lowering down in front of them, limiting them even though they can't see it.

And, because they are smart, they at least entertain the idea that they may just be jealous or resentful or bitter or obsessive, reject it, rationalize it away, and when someone brings it up with them, they say, already thought of it, dismissed it, see. still smarter than you.

I don't think I am going to write about Day anymore. This seems like an issue that no one ever changes their mind on.

I will impersonate him though:

I don't think you people would understand why.

I have a spiritual I.Q. of 200, and the things I know just aren't intelligible to you.

I am basically a saint, and the rest of you are scoundrels. The best you can hope for is to raise yourself up to the level of scofflaw.

And that's okay.

Some of you might reach the level of public nuisance, or even find some solace in being an ex-altar boy.

It is the best you can hope for, realistically speaking.

I know you don't understand this.

That's okay too.

And I know this sounds like boasting.

And I accept that you might see it that way.

Which is also okay.



^
^
I was just being logical. Speaking the facts clearly. Can't see how anyone would see it any other way.

Heh.

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(This post was last modified: 12-31-2018 03:01 PM by debeguiled.)
12-31-2018 03:00 PM
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Thot Leader Offline
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Post: #2681
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 03:00 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Then why does he, as he has admitted himself, load his arguments with midwit and gamma bait just to trick lesser wits to respond, so he can say, see, I knew you would say that?

[snip]

^
^
I was just being logical. Speaking the facts clearly. Can't see how anyone would see it any other way.

Heh.

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12-31-2018 03:05 PM
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Post: #2682
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 03:00 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(12-31-2018 01:05 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  Under this framework it's totally understandable to not waste time engaging with doubters. The manifestation of this is saying "people are too dumb to get it". People "in the know" who "aren't too dumb" to get it understand this is not an argument but realise this explains a lot.


Then why does he, as he has admitted himself, load his arguments with midwit and gamma bait just to trick lesser wits to respond, so he can say, see, I knew you would say that?

Why did he spend the first five chapters of his Peterson book responding to random anonymous Peterson fans from comment sections across the web?

There is so much about Day that is not related to how well he puts together an academic argument and much more about context.

Why is he wasting his time talking about this?

Why does he engage with these type of people?

Why does he try to be bad ass and say things like, "Yeah, I don't give a fuck."

Early on in this thread I said that he was so lightweight sometimes, I bet he will soon be posting pictures of his wife and saying she is hotter than Peterson's.

It was a joke.

A few pages later, it is exactly what he did.

That was his take down.

At least he didn't say his dad could beat up Peterson's.

I don't know why he would bait midwits like that really. My guess is entertainment. I personally prefer to, as Wall Street Playboys likes to say, avoid.

His wife being really hot is very pertinent. Because the "envy" angle is the biggest angle anti-Vox people use to take him down, it fully explains why it's illogical that he would be envious of Peterson.

Re: Your impersonation. I don't believe Vox or any of his well adjusted defenders would have a problem with it. If it turns out the fictional impersonation was actually correct, it is understandable why he would think or say the things he does. My guess is Vox would still want to debate things logically though.
12-31-2018 03:26 PM
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Post: #2683
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 03:26 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  I don't know why he would bait midwits like that really. My guess is entertainment. I personally prefer to, as Wall Street Playboys likes to say, avoid.

Vox is a bit of a bully and a sadist who enjoys counterpunching people who are less intelligent than he is.
12-31-2018 03:54 PM
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Post: #2684
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 03:26 PM)The Catalyst Wrote:  I don't know why he would bait midwits like that really. My guess is entertainment. I personally prefer to, as Wall Street Playboys likes to say, avoid.

His wife being really hot is very pertinent. Because the "envy" angle is the biggest angle anti-Vox people use to take him down, it fully explains why it's illogical that he would be envious of Peterson.

Because it's not like there's anything else about JBP that Vox would be envious of, like, say, his status as a public intellectual. The money, fame, exposure... I'm sure Vox doesn't spend time coveting these things...
12-31-2018 04:35 PM
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Post: #2685
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 04:35 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  Because it's not like there's anything else about JBP that Vox would be envious of, like, say, his status as a public intellectual. The money, fame, exposure... I'm sure Vox doesn't spend time coveting these things...

Can say for sure he ain't coveting Peterson's money. Here's a quote from Larry Correia a few years back. (Correia is a major author and no slouch in the 'having lots of cash department' himself.)
Quote:Holy moly, you’ve got no idea what his (Vox's) day job is. If the man wanted to simply buy votes, he’d be up for everything from Best Novel to Motor Trend Car of the Year.

I know a little about what he does from conversations I had with him back in the day. Whatever flaws he may have, I can guarantee you that "envying other people for their money" is not one of them.

As for "fame" and "exposure", he's repeatedly turned down interview requests and avoids the media like the plague. So I don't see him wanting fame either.
12-31-2018 04:52 PM
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Post: #2686
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
... then status, influence, and respect?
12-31-2018 04:54 PM
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Post: #2687
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
Invalid for the same reasons he's not jealous of Peterson's "fame" and "exposure".
12-31-2018 05:10 PM
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Post: #2688
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 05:10 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Invalid for the same reasons he's not jealous of Peterson's "fame" and "exposure".

Are you dismissing the potentiality that Vox is a narcissist? Because then he would definitely be jealous of status and influence.
12-31-2018 06:09 PM
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Post: #2689
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
I'm dismissing the possibility that status and influence are things Vox values, because he's repeatedly refused to do things that would enhance his status and influence. (For instance, he hasn't done a single media interview to promote Jordanetics, instead choosing to turn down repeated offers.)
12-31-2018 06:31 PM
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Post: #2690
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
Do you think he may be turning these offers down because the media generally dislikes him and any interview would most likely result in a negative portrayal?
12-31-2018 06:34 PM
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Post: #2691
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
No, because he's turned down offers from friendlies (right and alt-right sites), too.

This conversation is getting a little strange...
12-31-2018 06:46 PM
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Post: #2692
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
I really wasn't planning on posting on this thread, but I figure I might be the only one who has taken and understands the GRE.

(12-31-2018 08:11 AM)not-a-pua Wrote:  All these people bitching about Vox and in the end he is right again.
Peterson lied about his IQ. That's a fact now.

Damn, do I have bad news for you.

Here's what Vox said:

Quote:Now remember, Jordan Peterson is a habitual liar. Also note that if we put together the 75th percentile and 99th percentile on the GRE that he claims would indicate that he is at the 87th percentile combined. We can see that Mensa equates the 95th percentile on the GRE with the 98th IQ percentile, so adjusting for the difference in populations would move him up to the 90th percentile, or an IQ of 120, which fits right beneath his estimated IQ ceiling of 124.

He averaged the percentiles. That's really bad math. I'll talk more about VD's poor math skills in a bit.

99% percentile on verbal and 75% percentile on quantitative doesn't give you 87% percentile average. It's sloppy math, as it assumes you can add them linearly.

The GRE has gone through a few changes over the year, so I'll be combining data. I won't be able to prove what Peterson's IQ is definitively since I don't know what Peterson's exact GRE scores are, and what the composite score corresponds to in terms of IQ at the time he took the test. But I will show that it isn't as obvious as stating he's 87th percentile with an IQ ceiling of 124.

Here are percentile data for Q and V separately:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_R...aminations

Look for the columns that start with 800 for V and Q (the 170 score range is for the latest version of the GRE).

99th percentile V gives a score of 740-800
75th percentile Q gives a score of 750

Total score of 1490-1550 out of 1600, which is high. Since VD mentioned IQ ceiling, let's give Peterson the benefit of the doubt and say he got a 1550.

Let's take the opposite score, 75th percentile V and 99th percentile Q - you'd get 560 V and 800 Q, so a total score of 1360. Huge difference and this is why you can't just average the percentiles to get the percentile of the composite score.

What Vox Day didn't realize is that Q percentiles drop very fast. The Q section has historically been too easy for quant-heavy guys, so the top 10% percentile bunches around a perfect 800, and the next 15% in the next 50 points out of 800. The V section is the complete opposite, 99th percentile swings from 740 to 800.

I got a perfect 800 on the Q part and it was relatively easy for me. Well, with one caveat: I had to be really careful not to make a simple math mistake here or two. You know, the kind where you forget to multiple by 2. Did a bunch of those on practice exams until I developed the patience. But you make 1-2 silly mistakes and you drop from 800 to about 760. I had to be really careful when I took the GRE, triple-checking all my answers.

If I recall correctly, the result sheet said that with a perfect 800 Q I was at the 92th percentile. Again, do you see the problem here, if you simply average out percentiles? Despite having a perfect score, Vox would only have taken the 92 number.

On a related note, you actually couldn't get into a top STEM PhD program without getting at least a 780. Get a 760 and it was circumspect, and I'm talking top 5-10 STEM PhD programs. I had a few friends who had to retake the exam because they made 1 or 2 silly mistakes. Peterson would've gotten a 740-760 if he took the test same time I did. That's actually a really good score for a non-STEM person.

There are a few more complexities involved, but overall the Q section has always been a bit flawed like that: make a few silly mistakes and you're down to 760 on the Q part. It's been ameliorated in the new GRE from what I've heard.

I found a IQ-GRE score tables online:

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/GREIQ.aspx

Take a look at how low you have to go on the composite score to go below the 99th percentile in terms of IQ: you have to hit below a 1290.

How much would a 1550, which is 99th percentile V and 75th percentile Q come out to? 99.987% percentile.

And an IQ for a 15point-SD of 155.

Btw I've met scores of 150IQ+ people as well, and Peterson wouldn't be out of place. So I'll politely disagree with Sam's opinion that he's not smart enough.

Also, this isn't the first time VD has made some elementary math mistakes.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-...early.html

Quote:Even when the economy is not doing well, even when the Democrats are not nominating their most left-wing, most diverse, most unelectable candidates, the average Republican midterm loss is only 11 seats. This would reduce the Republican majority from 43 seats to 32 seats. Hardly a cause for panic.

Vox Day wrote a loss of 11 seats means the majority would be reduced from 43 to 32 seats. Anyone catch the math mistake?

11 seats loss means -11 for R and +11 for D, so a net change of 22 seats, i.e. 43 to 21 seats.

With this kind of sloppy math, VD probably wouldn't have done much better than 75th percentile himself on the Q section of the GRE.

And that would still be consistent with his stated IQ of 151 (not 140 range, Sam). As Peterson has pointed out, at that high range, most people have a large scatter between their quantitative and verbal IQ scores. I.e. it's more common to meet someone who scores in the upper echelon of Q but OK-ish in V (and vice versa) then it is to meet someone who is exceptionally great at both.

And let's not forget how badly wrong Vox was about that point. The D gained 40 seats, basically a flip of 80, so now D have a 36 seat majority according to NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018...tions.html

And finally, I'll end with the jewish IQ question. So Vox has stated that the average jewish IQ isn't all that much higher than the average white person. I remember the first time I read that argument, my thought was: "damn, I never realized it".

But I'm not all that confident about VD's math skills. Someone who I do trust to have the quantitative skills to opine about IQ differences between races is Lagraffe du Lion: http://lagriffedulion.f2s.com/

Start from the bottom, the first article is on women and minorities in STEM and you'll see how he beautifully explains a lot of the test results in the US in terms of race/gender and IQ. Seriously, from a math point of view, it's supremely elegant. Work your way up and article 6 is about Jews. He uses a different method (Rank Ordering) to calculate that the jewish average IQ is indeed 115.

Fair warning, you do need to understand statistics and integrals well to understand his calculations. But I had to say, I was impressed he was able to use Rank Ordering to determine Jewish IQ. Very clever.

It is possible that Peterson was actually right about why Jews are successful, his opinion matches that of Lagriffe.

Are Lagraffe and Peterson right and Vox wrong? No idea. But anyone who can read and understand Lagraffe's points and has seen Vox making glaring math mistakes like I did will have second thoughts about Vox's assertion that Jews aren't smart. I think Vox is a brilliant man, but I don't trust any of his opinions that requires math.

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12-31-2018 08:00 PM
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Post: #2693
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
I watched the Question Time that Peterson was on back in November tonight. Somehow I managed to stomach Diane Abbott's voice for 50 minutes to hear what Peterson had to say.

Unfortunately the session was mainly about UK-related topics (knife crime in London, Brexit etc.) and so he didn't really give that much input - maybe eight to 10 minutes of speaking overall, maximum? He came out with fairly standard psychoanalytical stuff but I think the format of the show isn't at all conducive to Peterson's long-form style. Still got some claps though, and wasn't shouted down. The most controversial part was a few comments about Count Dankula's case from earlier in the year, where the other panelists just parroted the usual points that he shouted "Gas the Jews" (without mentioning it was a joke).

To bring this thread back to the topic of the man himself, I have mixed feelings on Peterson. I've followed him since 2016 and like him as a speaker, but he does repeat the same points a lot over various interviews - something I particularly noticed during his time in the UK. Elsewhere in this thread he was called out for not sticking with what he was good at, but I understand his reasons for branching out (into say, advice-giving); he was starting to sound like a broken record whenever talking about Cultural Marxism. The problems come when it turned out that advice (e.g. 12 Rules for Life) was extremely basic. I don't want to hate on a teacher who is trying to help guys improve their lives, but I was taken aback by how much he was lauded for a watered-down version of what PUAs have been saying for years.

The much, much bigger issue I have with Peterson is his utter disregard for the power of groups - from small communities to mass movements. Yes, he pays some extremely basic lip service to these being vaguely "important", but then is always very quick to emphasise how it's actually the individual who is at the heart of all the good in the world. But if he doesn't acknowledge the power of a functioning group, then surely all this advice he gives out is moot, because he fails to contextualise how his fans should operate in society? We'll just end up with a load of autists in very clean rooms who make it their life's mission to stand up straight and pet cats.
12-31-2018 08:06 PM
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Post: #2694
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 08:00 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  He averaged the percentiles. That's really bad math. I'll talk more about VD's poor math skills in a bit.

As Vox doesn't write here I have taken a screenshot of your comments to his blog post and his subsequent replies to them.

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01-01-2019 05:58 AM
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Post: #2695
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
(12-31-2018 04:40 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  He claims that he hangs up the Soviet art to remind him of the suffering and pain that those commies have enacted on the people...

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"Imagine" by HCE | Hitler reacts to Battle of Montreal | An alternative use for squid that has never crossed your mind before
01-01-2019 08:44 AM
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Dr. Chim Ritchalds Offline
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Post: #2696
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
So Peterson and Dave Rubin just announced they're leaving Patreon:



01-01-2019 12:49 PM
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rotekz Online
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Post: #2697
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
^^^^ They plan to set up the Intellectual Douche Weasel payment system to sucker in those banned from PayPal. Only a moron on the dissident right would trust these two frontmen for the globalists.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2019 01:05 PM by rotekz.)
01-01-2019 01:00 PM
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Wingman
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Post: #2698
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
I think we'll have to file the Patreon move under "again possibly a cover for his secret globalist agenda but still a good thing for the cause".
01-01-2019 01:18 PM
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Shinebox Offline
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Post: #2699
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
I remember specifically looking at my GMAT test scores and noticing that averaging percentiles was nowhere close to my overall percentile. I know there are different tests from different eras with different rubrics.

However, Is there any objection that you could pose to Vox Day's positions that he can't summarily dismiss going "no, actually I'm correct"?

JP clearly should not be anyone's intellectual north star, but at least he does not write books about Sam Harris and why everything he says is wrong.

Vox Day just sets off a gut level revulsion in me. Something just screams... Don't follow where this man leads.
01-01-2019 02:04 PM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #2700
RE: The Jordan Peterson thread
Vox Day actually put his wife's photos in his book to do a "my wife is hotter than yours therefore I'm smarter"? That's not an argument. What a loser!

I remember him criticising JP for running away from a bully at 6 years old too.

I'm sure "my dad can beat up your dad" will make an appearance in his next book about JP.

(01-01-2019 02:04 PM)Shinebox Wrote:  Vox Day just sets off a gut level revulsion in me. Something just screams... Don't follow where this man leads.

Check out his blog comment section. You'll see a collection of some of the most unlikeable people, filled with negativity, criticism of others, of the world etc.

Now, go check Dr Jordan Peterson's social media comments. You'll see a lot of positive people, regularly get a life changing story (for the better) from someone who hit rock bottom at one point.

What would that remind you of? The former is like that of MGTOW or PUAHate, the latter is similar to RVF especially in its heydays. It doesn't mean the latter is perfect, but taking positive actions to improve your life is a lot better than criticising others and complaining endlessly.

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01-01-2019 05:03 PM
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