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An honest discussion about China
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Laner Offline
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Post: #26
RE: An honest discussion about China
OP,

I have similar business background to you, so I know the China temptation.

If you are in the 'clean' side of development, then Seoul or Taipei are great spots right now. Lots of Japanese talent helped launch these two cities, and now they are powerful in their own right. I have a few friends that work for Samsung and they love it.

China is great if you are more interested in the 'dirty' side of the business. The production and quality stuff if you are dealing with actual tangible products.

China is fun on shorter visits under 2 months. At least in my opinion. After 2 months I would head to Taipei and instantly feel relaxed. Then I would hit Tokyo on my way back to Vancouver and it was like a decompression taken in steps. I loved this way of going to China and leaving China. It really put a lot in perspective. Use Asia and its great connectivity to leverage certain points from certain places. But for living Tokyo is so far ahead of the other places its not even worth comparing.
05-30-2017 10:53 AM
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Suits Offline
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Post: #27
RE: An honest discussion about China
(05-30-2017 10:53 AM)Laner Wrote:  China is fun on shorter visits under 2 months. At least in my opinion. After 2 months I would head to Taipei and instantly feel relaxed.

If you live here, leaving China is always a relief.

That still doesn't erase the tangible outcomes some of us have gained from making residency here.
05-30-2017 11:37 PM
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Post: #28
RE: An honest discussion about China
Even though there are still some things to watch out for in Taiwan, it is really like night and day dealing with manufacturers in Taiwan vs China.

When I first was developing a product I was doing so with two manufacturers in Shenzhen. Long story short, the lies, half truths, delays, incompetence, bullshit etc cost me 4 months and bunch of money, almost put an end to the project, and in the end got nothing out of it.

I then shifted to dealing with a few manufacturers in Taichung and it was such a huge difference. I finally felt the people I was doing business with understood the concept of mutually beneficial. It didn't go perfect - that type of thing never really does - but there was a distinct lack of bullshit that was refreshing. Along with many other reasons, I think it's because they, along with the Japanese of course, still have a stronger concept of shame when compared to mainlanders.

It can be difficult to avoid China when you're looking to get certain products manufactured, but I will continue to completely avoid it if there are options elsewhere.

I really like Taiwan, I think it is often underrated.

Suits, I don't know how you do it, you are a true hero brother.

Americans are dreamers too
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2017 04:01 AM by GlobalMan.)
05-31-2017 03:48 AM
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Post: #29
RE: An honest discussion about China
Yeah, in regards to decompressing and leaving, every truly successful expat I know who lives here leaves 2-4 times a year. I'm talking guys making serious money and really "living" here.

I've compressed some of my vacations over the past year to get set up, but I did have a nice trip out to vietnam and a few day trips to HK. I'm looking on eventually leaving for 1 month and setting up in Thailand or something.

Either way, all the smartest SHenzhen expats leave for months at a time and come back feeling good.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
05-31-2017 03:59 AM
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Post: #30
RE: An honest discussion about China
(05-31-2017 03:48 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  Suits, I don't know how you do it, you are a true hero brother.

How I do it.

(1) I've followed the tried and true advice of getting regular decompression. My first 4 times in China were two semesters followed by two full years. Given breaks in Hong Kong, I'd never spent a full year non-stop in China until I'd already put several years in on the mainland,

I probably at some point spent a year hear non-stop. That would have been at some point in my first two years back when I had nothing and was just trying to get the money earning engine turning.

As soon as I got the engine moving, I shifted into an intentional strategy of structuring my schedule so that during down times in the language education business (cultural holidays, exams and exam preparation periods), I'd simply not be in China. The first real example of this was my trip in Malaysia earlier this year. I spent nearly 4 full weeks not in China, because most of my classes were going to be cancelled anyway and I needed the mental break.

I also spend 10 days in Canada during a recent cultural holiday. Most of my work is on the weekends with only a little work Monday-Friday, so since on the cultural weekend all my lessons were sure to be cancelled, I left the country for the weekend and the 4 days that followed AND preceded the weekend, as I lost out on very little income this way, while gaining much in quality family time and mental decompression.

I plan to increase my fall and spring earning as much as possible and once my personal university debt bubble is mostly paid off, I'll spend 6-7 weeks away each winter and 8 weeks away each summer.

(2) I avoid undo stress by having enough clients that I can drop any bad ones with minimal and only temporary damage to my earnings.

(3) I drive carefully to avoid any traffic accidents that could fuck up my day, week or month. Chinese people love to "be the victim" in these situations and demand payment for "damages" even if there was no injuries or damage. No matter how it goes, the stress of being at a police station any more than I have to be is not worth it.

(4) I keep my address and real name as secret as I can for the same reason.

(5) I avoid becoming to close with clients so that I won't be pressured into doing things I don't want to do.

(6) I find going foreign friends who speak Chinese well and avoid complainers who can't be bothered to learn the language and live with a massive inferiority complex as a result.

There are more strategies, but I got a girl in my bed waiting for my dick, so I need to go shower off the days sweat and fuck her.
05-31-2017 09:10 AM
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Post: #31
RE: An honest discussion about China
(05-31-2017 09:10 AM)Suits Wrote:  (3) I drive carefully to avoid any traffic accidents that could fuck up my day, week or month. Chinese people love to "be the victim" in these situations and demand payment for "damages" even if there was no injuries or damage. No matter how it goes, the stress of being at a police station any more than I have to be is not worth it.

(4) I keep my address and real name as secret as I can for the same reason.
Great advice.

To be honest... Other than the air, the main reason I've ruled out living in China is that people like to 碰瓷 and falsely claim the apparently rich person injured them. I'm not Asian, so I'll probably attract them like moths to a flame and ultranationalism would turn a mob against me.

I've done some first aid volunteering in the past, so it'd probably help an 'injured' person out of habit, and that'd just make things worse.

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06-03-2017 05:24 PM
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Post: #32
RE: An honest discussion about China
(05-22-2017 09:15 PM)theoneandonly Wrote:  Hello,
I hope that this thread does not violate the forum rules as this is a question that I am really looking for some guidance on.

I am a foreigner living in Tokyo, Japan. I am in my twenties, my job is mobile and on the cutting edge, I love the lifestyle that this city affords.

Japan is very close to China physically, and politically it is the foremost topic.
I see 'raw China': tourists, Chinese businesses, and political designs that would largely go unseen in the West.

I am trying to be open-minded and have been studying Chinese language and building connections with Chinese people in my industry. I understand it is essential to be adaptable, but I would like to hear what your thoughts are, whether you are living in China, or have a better understanding than me.

My home country (Anglo) is heavily populated by Chinese immigrants. Much of the country is now owned by China including some of the major industries and value producing land. Large portions of the cities have been turned into China towns and inhabited by some Chinese who have no desire to respect the culture and history of the country. Foreign investment in housing had increased the house prices to ridiculous levels in many of the cities. I can't help but see a longterm trend that is not going to stop anytime soon.

As a young person, I feel like I have no real guidance for understanding this situation. Should I be completely embracing this new order, what is my place as a non-Chinese? I am humbly asking for some ideological guidance.

Thank you.

So? What is your objective? If you want to fuck by number you should rather stay in Japan, maybe change city if you are bored. In China you will have it more difficult because Chinese have more self-steem and pride than Japanese. I know both countries and speak both languages. I am a translator and my next target is Taiwan, which to me appears to have the best of China and the best of Japan.
09-07-2017 01:21 PM
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SpursFan741 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: An honest discussion about China
Does anybody know here how to stay in China for several years without the need to apply for a Z-visa ( working visa)?

Is X1/ X2 ( study visa) really the only option? ( So that you pay some universities or language schools in order to provide you a visa, something i did before)
09-09-2017 03:22 AM
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Suits Offline
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Post: #34
RE: An honest discussion about China
(09-09-2017 03:22 AM)SpursFan741 Wrote:  Does anybody know here how to stay in China for several years without the need to apply for a Z-visa ( working visa)?

Is X1/ X2 ( study visa) really the only option? ( So that you pay some universities or language schools in order to provide you a visa, something i did before)

Yes, an X1 is ideal for those purposes. Finding a language school that can get you a student visa even if you only spend 10-20 hours in class each week is probably your best option. Some schools don't even seem to care of students attend class as long as they keep paying tuition each semester.

If you are an American or Canadian, you can get a 10 year tourist visa, but you'll only be granted between 30 and 90 days per entry. 30 seems the norm for those who don't have previous China visas and 60 days seems common for those who have an exist visa history.

I wouldn't count on getting 90 days per entry, although I've heard of it happening.
09-09-2017 03:37 AM
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Post: #35
RE: An honest discussion about China
(05-31-2017 03:48 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  Even though there are still some things to watch out for in Taiwan, it is really like night and day dealing with manufacturers in Taiwan vs China.

When I first was developing a product I was doing so with two manufacturers in Shenzhen. Long story short, the lies, half truths, delays, incompetence, bullshit etc cost me 4 months and bunch of money, almost put an end to the project, and in the end got nothing out of it.

I then shifted to dealing with a few manufacturers in Taichung and it was such a huge difference. I finally felt the people I was doing business with understood the concept of mutually beneficial. It didn't go perfect - that type of thing never really does - but there was a distinct lack of bullshit that was refreshing. Along with many other reasons, I think it's because they, along with the Japanese of course, still have a stronger concept of shame when compared to mainlanders.

My best read on this (as it is something that I've spend a lot of time trying to understand) is that the only shame that mainlander Chinese are capable of experiencing is competition based shame.

Meaning, the only thing to feel shame about are losing or otherwise relieving your inferiority to others.

Tripping on a crack in the sidewalk and falling on your face is shameful because it makes you look like a moron, unless no one sees it happen.

Driving like a complete dick is totally cool, though, because you're not revealing weakness, only strength (because the definition of strength in China is going first at the intersection, even if doing so costs you more time than letting the other party go first).
11-08-2017 11:41 AM
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almast Offline
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Post: #36
RE: An honest discussion about China
They buy farmland and anything that produces food, all their moves are forward looking, we're talking 10-15-20 years ahead. Rest of the world is pretty much guaranteed starvation at some point in the future because of that, you just don't realize what they are doing. Once the US wont be able to repay its debt they will demand farmland as payment, by then their sleeper infiltrating spies and formidable military will render the US powerless.
11-09-2017 01:13 AM
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Vasily Zaytsev Offline
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Post: #37
RE: An honest discussion about China
IMO, it is definitely possible that within the next few years, more nations will begin to put restrictions on foreign investment. I'm not sure if anyone saw the news, but, New Zealand recently instituted a ban on foreign real estate investment. It makes me wonder if this will potentially lead to some sort of domino effect in the future.

In this article from the Guardian, the author cites real estate investment from the world's top 1% as a major cause for this legislation, however, I think most reasonable people know that this is nothing more than an attempt to halt China's slow takeover of their country.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/o...nda-ardern
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2017 04:42 PM by Vasily Zaytsev.)
11-10-2017 04:41 PM
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Post: #38
RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-10-2017 04:41 PM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  IMO, it is definitely possible that within the next few years, more nations will begin to put restrictions on foreign investment. I'm not sure if anyone saw the news, but, New Zealand recently instituted a ban on foreign real estate investment. It makes me wonder if this will potentially lead to some sort of domino effect in the future.

In this article from the Guardian, the author cites real estate investment from the world's top 1% as a major cause for this legislation, however, I think most reasonable people know that this is nothing more than an attempt to halt China's slow takeover of their country.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/o...nda-ardern

For years, countries like Canada have welcomed foreign investment in real estate, because it was a means of encouraging economic growth.

Obviously, people have begun to wise up to the fact that allowing too much of this may do more harm than good on the long run, because it tends to price many of the local people out of their own real estate market.

However, governments probably won't react strongly to this until it starts to threaten their power or the power of the national elites.
11-11-2017 03:50 AM
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Post: #39
RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-11-2017 03:50 AM)Suits Wrote:  
(11-10-2017 04:41 PM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  IMO, it is definitely possible that within the next few years, more nations will begin to put restrictions on foreign investment. I'm not sure if anyone saw the news, but, New Zealand recently instituted a ban on foreign real estate investment. It makes me wonder if this will potentially lead to some sort of domino effect in the future.

In this article from the Guardian, the author cites real estate investment from the world's top 1% as a major cause for this legislation, however, I think most reasonable people know that this is nothing more than an attempt to halt China's slow takeover of their country.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/o...nda-ardern

For years, countries like Canada have welcomed foreign investment in real estate, because it was a means of encouraging economic growth.

Obviously, people have begun to wise up to the fact that allowing too much of this may do more harm than good on the long run, because it tends to price many of the local people out of their own real estate market.

However, governments probably won't react strongly to this until it starts to threaten their power or the power of the national elites.

Yep. You're definitely right about it driving up all housing prices and forcing out locals. It will be interesting to see if Canada or Vancouver ever change anything.

By the way man, I've followed this forum a while, but, my account is still new. Do you know how to tell whether or not someone has responded to a post? I never receive a notification after each new post...
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 03:09 PM by Vasily Zaytsev.)
11-11-2017 03:08 PM
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The Beast1 Offline
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RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-09-2017 01:13 AM)almast Wrote:  They buy farmland and anything that produces food, all their moves are forward looking, we're talking 10-15-20 years ahead. Rest of the world is pretty much guaranteed starvation at some point in the future because of that, you just don't realize what they are doing. Once the US wont be able to repay its debt they will demand farmland as payment, by then their sleeper infiltrating spies and formidable military will render the US powerless.

If the US was a communist country I'd agree with this statement, but since it isn't the government can't just take farmland away from private owners for the benefit of a debtor somewhere. They could give away land and infrastructure and allow "tolls" to be paid similar to that what the Canadians did with that highway in Ontario.

At the nation state level, there isn't a repo man who will come and take your stuff. The phrase , "If you owe the bank $100 it's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 trillion, it's the bank's problem" makes sense here.
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2017 03:37 PM by The Beast1.)
11-11-2017 03:34 PM
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Post: #41
RE: An honest discussion about China
OP, you said there was a startup community in Japan that is growing. Can you expand on that?
11-12-2017 04:45 PM
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soltopia Offline
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RE: An honest discussion about China
Chinese would sell their own mom for a buck. Their tourists are the rudest muthas with a total lack of respect.

I now avoid visiting places that are visa free for Chinese and that are popular with these animals e.g. Thailand.
11-13-2017 11:21 AM
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gework Offline
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Post: #43
RE: An honest discussion about China
I don't have any primary evidence, but it appears China is engaging in economic colonisation.

In Serbia there are a lot of Chinese-owned general stores of varying sizes. I have been told that the people who run them and the other Chinese are sent over by the government and that they might not have any contact with their children for years. These shops are all over the place. I have a small house there and in a nearby village of 3,600 people I was told that I could probably get some towels from the China shop. I presumed that this was somewhere that sold china plates and kitchen items, but when I got there I found a man behind the counter with his T-shirt rolled up over his belly and a comb stuck in his hair singing in Chinese. He was living in a different world that was difficult to communicate with him in. It also explained why a few days earlier I'd seen an angry Chinese woman in a local shop who attitude she was the Queen of Sheba wasn't going down well with the locals.

The Chinese that have been dumped into Serbia are obviously their dregs. They don't look particularly intelligent, poorly dressed, ugly, bad skin, acne and very rude. They barely say anything.

Agree that Hong Kong is completely different. It's more like Victorian England crossed with Japan.

Of people I know who have dealt with China in business they say they are untrustworthy.

My main observation is there lack of creativity. If you look at their big companies, they are mostly clones of US companies. They are not good at coming up with their own ideas or making markets, but very good at doing your own ideas back to you and banning/making it difficult for you to compete in their territory.
11-13-2017 11:52 AM
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Post: #44
RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-13-2017 11:52 AM)gework Wrote:  I don't have any primary evidence, but it appears China is engaging in economic colonisation.

In Serbia there are a lot of Chinese-owned general stores of varying sizes. I have been told that the people who run them and the other Chinese are sent over by the government and that they might not have any contact with their children for years. These shops are all over the place. I have a small house there and in a nearby village of 3,600 people I was told that I could probably get some towels from the China shop. I presumed that this was somewhere that sold china plates and kitchen items, but when I got there I found a man behind the counter with his T-shirt rolled up over his belly and a comb stuck in his hair singing in Chinese. He was living in a different world that was difficult to communicate with him in. It also explained why a few days earlier I'd seen an angry Chinese woman in a local shop who attitude she was the Queen of Sheba wasn't going down well with the locals.

The Chinese that have been dumped into Serbia are obviously their dregs. They don't look particularly intelligent, poorly dressed, ugly, bad skin, acne and very rude. They barely say anything.

Agree that Hong Kong is completely different. It's more like Victorian England crossed with Japan.

Of people I know who have dealt with China in business they say they are untrustworthy.

My main observation is there lack of creativity. If you look at their big companies, they are mostly clones of US companies. They are not good at coming up with their own ideas or making markets, but very good at doing your own ideas back to you and banning/making it difficult for you to compete in their territory.

Interesting... I would have never guessed that Serbia has a lot of Chinese immigrants. Also, in terms of business, you make a lot of interesting points man. Many of my Chinese friends complain that whenever they are looking to buy something online, vendors are hesitant to give Chinese people quotes. I can also tell you that many Chinese people simply buy products in bulk, wholesale, then sell whatever they want to their own clients.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2017 11:34 PM by Vasily Zaytsev.)
11-13-2017 11:33 PM
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RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-11-2017 03:50 AM)Suits Wrote:  For years, countries like Canada have welcomed foreign investment in real estate, because it was a means of encouraging economic growth.
Obviously, people have begun to wise up to the fact that allowing too much of this may do more harm than good on the long run, because it tends to price many of the local people out of their own real estate market.
However, governments probably won't react strongly to this until it starts to threaten their power or the power of the national elites.

I spent years working in local politics. The best way to think about this is in terms of voters. When Chinese investors start driving up the real estate market prices Home Owners... who are the majority of voters, LOVE IT. In every highly liberal city in the US, homeowners fight policies that create more housing because it drives down their value. They want rising prices.

Now, at some point home ownership rates drop because nobody can afford to compete with Chinese investors. New Zealand passed their laws when home ownership hit an all time low. That means voters who are renting begin to outnumber voters who own houses. Thus the sudden shift in policy.

(11-11-2017 03:08 PM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  Yep. You're definitely right about it driving up all housing prices and forcing out locals. It will be interesting to see if Canada or Vancouver ever change anything.
By the way man, I've followed this forum a while, but, my account is still new. Do you know how to tell whether or not someone has responded to a post? I never receive a notification after each new post...

Vancouver is now taxing all foreign investment in real estate at 15%. It has slowed down the market considerably.
11-14-2017 12:30 PM
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Post: #46
RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-13-2017 11:52 AM)gework Wrote:  When I got there I found a man behind the counter with his T-shirt rolled up over his belly and a comb stuck in his hair singing in Chinese. He was living in a different world that was difficult to communicate with him in. It also explained why a few days earlier I'd seen an angry Chinese woman in a local shop who attitude she was the Queen of Sheba wasn't going down well with the locals.

The Chinese that have been dumped into Serbia are obviously their dregs. They don't look particularly intelligent, poorly dressed, ugly, bad skin, acne and very rude. They barely say anything.

No, they aren't the dregs of Chinese society. They are the majority. You have to remember that China was by large majority a peasant society until really, really recently. There are still a ton of people who fall into that category, but most of those who have advanced economically still have the "countryside look" to them. With the exception of an extreme minority of urbanized youngsters, the Chinese do not place significant value on personal appearance.

While they do want status symbols like cars and homes, they do not care about dressing well or having decent teeth. During the Cultural Revolution, much of the educated populace was heavily persecuted and few of the people from this ancestral background have found themselves back into the top rungs of society. Those positions are not dominated by those who look the part, but rather ugly looking people who took advance of the chaos that occurred between the 1960's and the 1990's to rise in influence and power.

The people from a more sophisticated background who survived that period seem to have mainly found their way into poorly paid academic roles, a lower middle class existence. Not a lot of money to spare, but nice people who have some sense of ethics.

There's also a small contingent of very well-off individuals who look the part and behave like you'd expect rich people to behave, with the accompanying sophistication and manners, but they are definitely the exception to the rule.

The bulk of this massive population are still peasants in mentality and appearance. With so many competing for so little in their own nation, it's no surprise that so many have moved on to other countries and virtually any corner of the earth that will have them. Ironic, since they won't let anyone settle in their own country.

They are big believers in the importance and significance of their own culture and history and no matter where they go, they view others as less intelligent and knowledgeable than they.

The whole exposed belly thing is based on the completely retarded system of Chinese medical wisdom, which teaches them that keeping your belly cool is the source of health. They don't go to a new place open to learning new things, but rather with full confidence that their own knowledge is entirely sufficient and that others are at least slightly subhuman compared to them.

To them, a particularly intelligent non-Chinese might provide some entertainment, but he's still not as bright as your average Chinese person.
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2017 08:30 PM by Suits.)
11-14-2017 08:27 PM
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RE: An honest discussion about China
I've seen that exposed belly thing in other countries, I thought it was showing off how fat you were as a sign of wealth in the slums.
11-15-2017 05:07 AM
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Post: #48
RE: An honest discussion about China
interesting...
11-15-2017 05:16 PM
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Vasily Zaytsev
theoneandonly Offline
Pigeon

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Post: #49
RE: An honest discussion about China
An update for everyone.

Since I posted this thread I pulled my act together. I travelled to Shenzhen, Shanghai, Taiwan, each for 4 days ~ week. I learned some Mandarin, I made some friends, I had some life changing experiences traveling and exploring these areas. Overcoming this mental barrier I had put up about China and Chinese made all the difference, thanks for your advice.

Best,
1
09-24-2018 07:55 AM
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Transsimian, RoastBeefCurtains4Me, Handsome Creepy Eel
blck Offline
Pelican
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Post: #50
RE: An honest discussion about China
(11-13-2017 11:52 AM)gework Wrote:  I don't have any primary evidence, but it appears China is engaging in economic colonisation.
[...]




Tell them too much, they wouldn't understand; tell them what they know, they would yawn.
They have to move up by responding to challenges, not too easy not too hard, until they paused at what they always think is the end of the road for all time instead of a momentary break in an endless upward spiral
09-24-2018 08:11 AM
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Dream Medicine
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