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"Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
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Jean Valjean Offline
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"Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
Feminists have started to worry that if populations shrink too quickly, it might cause the welfare state to collapse under the weight of the older generations who rely on the young to support them. Therefore, they call for populations to decline in a "very slow, totally manageable way". France's fertility rate is 1.99 births per woman; Sweden's, 1.89; and Norway's, 1.78. Feminists claim that these "incredibly high" rates are the result of giving generous handouts to single and working moms:

Women's E-News Wrote:In a 2002 article, “Gender Equality: A Key to Our Future?,” Lena Sommestad, a women’s historian and then Swedish Social Democratic minister of the environment, explained why Sweden’s “gender equality policies built on a strong tradition of pronatalist and supportive social policies” were relevant to a Europe faced with declining birth rates and aging populations.

According to her, Sweden‘s combination of pronatalism and feminism accounted for the success of Swedish pronatalist policies. She urged feminists elsewhere to overcome suspicion of pronatalism. By enabling women to both work and have children, Sweden maintained high birth rates, unlike countries that supported traditional views of women’s roles. Extensive state intervention was needed to support families with children. Noting that “women’s access to the labor market appears to be a prerequisite for higher birth rates,” she observed that Sweden gives no benefits to women as wives, but only as workers. She argued that “countries that do not stigmatize non-marital cohabitation have a better chance of maintaining higher fertility rates. Since there is a decline in the marriage rate all over the industrialized world with later and fewer marriages and more divorces, non-marital births are needed to compensate.”

They say abandoning traditional sex roles is the key:

Anne Chemin Wrote:Yet there is nothing mysterious about the approach that is working in both France and Scandinavia. It combines the idea of a modern family based on gender equality and powerful government policies. “Nowadays, both ingredients are needed to sustain the population,” Lesthaeghe asserts. “At first sight it seems a simple recipe, but it’s far from easy to put into practice: it takes a lot of time to design and establish a new family model.”

There is nothing straightforward or natural about “the family”. It is a very complex world based on social norms, what the American sociologist Ronald Rindfuss calls the “family package”. “In Japan, for instance, this package involves many constraints,” says Ined demographer Laurent Toulemon. “A woman entering into a relationship must also accept marriage, obey her husband, have a child, stop working after it is born and make room for her ageing in-laws. It’s a case of all or nothing. In France the package is more flexible: one doesn’t have to get married or have children. Norms are more open and families more diverse.”

This includes giving working moms more ways to outsource childcare to non-family-members:

Drake Baer Wrote:Not only is there parental leave — moms get their full salary for 16 weeks of maternity leave, and 26 weeks if it’s her third child — but also “family allowances,” where mothers of young children are essentially paid by the government, with extra money for the third kid. According to the EU, a full 2.6 percent of the French GDP went to supporting families in 2014.

A lot of this is enabled by the role of French government in public life. “The state in France is an expression of what it means to be French,” Jackson says, while in the U.S. the trust in the government has cratered over the past 50 years. There’s a parallel sentiment in countries once ruled by Nazis or Fascists: Asking people in Italy, France, or Germany to make babies for the fatherland is a tall order, demographer Laurent Toulemon told The Guardian. This might be most clearly seen in child care: In France, it’s normal for young mothers to drop their young ones off at state-sponsored (or private) day care — it’s thought to be part of the child’s socialization, Jackson says. In this way, the number of women in the labor force can stay up (and their careers can continue on) while also raising the next generation of fashionistas, beret-makers, or whatever it is French people do. That’s what France understands, and what Mediterranean Europe and East Asia are seemingly missing: When culture and government make it possible to combine work and family, it gets way easier for women (and men) to have it all. And the babies follow.

But wait, there's a problem; despite all this, France's birth rate just hit its lowest level in 40 years:

May Bulman Wrote:The decrease has been linked to France's ageing population, which has led to a steady decline in women at child-bearing age in the country since the 1990s.

Marie Reynaud, head of INSEE, told The Independent the decline in births is also due to the fact that French women are choosing to have children later in life, so they can spend more time on studying and establishing a “stable situation”.

“The French are having children increasingly later in life, which naturally leads to a fall in fertility,” she said.

Also, for some reason, women who take advantage of France's legally-guaranteed, employer-paid four-month-long maternity leaves sometimes get a chilly reception upon their return:

Claire Lundberg Wrote:Though by law a company must guarantee a woman on maternity leave a return to her old job or one with similar responsibilities, in practice there are ways for companies to get around this. They may promote a younger worker over her, or a woman may find herself “mise au placard,” a French term that means “put in the closet.” This is what a French company does when it can’t fire someone—it freezes her out. Though in title and salary the job remains the same, the employee is stripped of responsibilities, disinvited to meetings, given little or nothing of consequence to do, until she (or he) hopefully decides to quit, thus absolving the company of all the indemnities it would have to pay if it fired the person.

I think the limitation of these pro-natalist policies is that if women are still delaying having kids till after they've gone to college and gotten established in their careers, even if their original plan was to have three or more kids, they may abandon or undershoot that goal. Career women are more likely to become narcissistic and look down on most of the men around them as unworthy. At the same time, they themselves are approaching the wall. That sounds like a pretty good recipe for having trouble locking down a man who meets their standards.

By the time they want to have kids, their fertility may be gone. Women often think, "So-and-so had a kid at 45" but there are outliers on the other side as well; some women are unlucky enough to become infertile in their 20s. So if they put college and career first, they lost their opportunity to have kids.

Also, lacking a husband, women may decide that even with the state's help, it's just too much of a burden to be a working mom of more than two kids. Child care can be outsourced, but actually raising the child (e.g. giving him acceptance, praise, teaching, and discipline; teaching him right from wrong and how to how to be successful; etc.)? Not so much. I think a lot of these single moms are going to find out that they're ill-equipped to do everything that's involved in parenting, without the help of a husband. When young women see the older women struggling with parenthood, it's not going to be a very effective advertisement for having a bunch of kids.

Also, the taxes to provide these benefits for single and working moms have to come from somewhere. If the taxes are coming from men, then that takes away from men's ability to support women and kids, which further weakens the family unit. We can expect that this will lead to there being more single and working moms in need of handouts.

In the end, even "natalist feminism" isn't able to bring fertility rates up to the replacement rate, so it will have to be abandoned at some point in favor of patriarchy, unless we're going to resign ourselves to gradual extinction. In the short term, western countries can stall for time by bringing in young third worlders to make up for the declining birth rate, but eventually, they're going to run out of third worlders.

Feminists can seduce the third world by telling them, "Here, accept these funds to educate your women and lower your birth rate, so you can be rich like us." Any woman who prefers to marry and have kids instead of going to school and riding the carousel is viewed as low-class, and no one wants to be that. These countries want to do everything they can to NOT be viewed as primitive and backward, so they can be taken seriously in international politics. That means getting rid of patriarchy and adopting the culture of the first world.

Once that reservoir of human capital dries up, first world feminists are going to be even more frustrated than they are now, because they won't have any sex tourism hot spots they can visit for trysts with Javier. What are feminists going to do after they have emasculated the entire world, and thereby eliminated their penis paradises like the Caribbean, the south of France, etc.? Those are going to be dark days for the Eat, Pray, Love crowd.
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2017 04:07 PM by Jean Valjean.)
06-25-2017 04:06 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
What good are extra children if they are brain-damaged by feminism?

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06-25-2017 04:07 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-25-2017 04:06 PM)Jean Valjean Wrote:  ...

Once that reservoir of human capital dries up, first world feminists are going to be even more frustrated than they are now, because they won't have any sex tourism hot spots they can visit for trysts with Javier. What are feminists going to do after they have emasculated the entire world, and thereby eliminated their penis paradises like the Caribbean, the south of France, etc.? Those are going to be dark days for the Eat, Pray, Love crowd.

Please.

Feminism is not an invasive weed. It's a hot-house orchid that takes insanely high levels of productivity to grow and maintain.

The very second the world's economy undergoes any sort of serious reset or an real, actual war starts feminism will become a footnote in the history books. A piddly little *notation that explains why our forces got off to a somewhat slow start.

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06-25-2017 08:08 PM
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puckerman Offline
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-25-2017 08:08 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Please.

Feminism is not an invasive weed. It's a hot-house orchid that takes insanely high levels of productivity to grow and maintain.

The very second the world's economy undergoes any sort of serious reset or an real, actual war starts feminism will become a footnote in the history books. A piddly little *notation that explains why our forces got off to a somewhat slow start.

This is an excellent analogy. America's economy has been shit since 2001 though. It will take some real poverty for feminism in this country to die. It's been so gradual that most people haven't noticed.

Feminism and most of this other bullshit has been promoted by what Ayn Rand called "the parasites in subsidized classrooms." We still have enough wealth here to support a whole lot of those parasites. If we're lucky, we might see an exodus from the schools which would force a lot of the parasites to get real jobs in the ral world.
06-26-2017 12:51 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
Feminism was always after the destruction of the Western culture and depopulation.

Also I might add - aside from Eastern European women, Western European native women reproduce at levels of 1.5.

The higher fertility rate of 1.9 or 1.8 for Sweden is based solely on the babies born in among the mostly Muslim immigrants who reproduce at a rate of 3.5 (even in the second or third generation it is way above 2.0).

And since Muslims will not lower their fertility, but it seems that the new generation is more devout, then feminists propose giving Europe to the Caliphate or an Islamic Republic long-term. Well done indeed.
06-26-2017 01:54 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-26-2017 12:51 AM)puckerman Wrote:  
(06-25-2017 08:08 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Please.

Feminism is not an invasive weed. It's a hot-house orchid that takes insanely high levels of productivity to grow and maintain.

The very second the world's economy undergoes any sort of serious reset or an real, actual war starts feminism will become a footnote in the history books. A piddly little *notation that explains why our forces got off to a somewhat slow start.

This is an excellent analogy. America's economy has been shit since 2001 though. It will take some real poverty for feminism in this country to die. It's been so gradual that most people haven't noticed.

Feminism and most of this other bullshit has been promoted by what Ayn Rand called "the parasites in subsidized classrooms." We still have enough wealth here to support a whole lot of those parasites. If we're lucky, we might see an exodus from the schools which would force a lot of the parasites to get real jobs in the ral world.

Why do you say the economy has been shit since 2001? Since 2001, there's been 2 booms and one recession, but that's just the economic cycle. Most people still make enough money to sit back and surf the internet or watch TV after work while ordering all their essentials from eBay and Amazon. I don't see that as bad economic times á la the great depression or war time rationing.
06-26-2017 02:17 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-26-2017 02:17 PM)Running Turtles Wrote:  
(06-26-2017 12:51 AM)puckerman Wrote:  
(06-25-2017 08:08 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Please.

Feminism is not an invasive weed. It's a hot-house orchid that takes insanely high levels of productivity to grow and maintain.

The very second the world's economy undergoes any sort of serious reset or an real, actual war starts feminism will become a footnote in the history books. A piddly little *notation that explains why our forces got off to a somewhat slow start.

This is an excellent analogy. America's economy has been shit since 2001 though. It will take some real poverty for feminism in this country to die. It's been so gradual that most people haven't noticed.

Feminism and most of this other bullshit has been promoted by what Ayn Rand called "the parasites in subsidized classrooms." We still have enough wealth here to support a whole lot of those parasites. If we're lucky, we might see an exodus from the schools which would force a lot of the parasites to get real jobs in the ral world.

Why do you say the economy has been shit since 2001? Since 2001, there's been 2 booms and one recession, but that's just the economic cycle. Most people still make enough money to sit back and surf the internet or watch TV after work while ordering all their essentials from eBay and Amazon. I don't see that as bad economic times á la the great depression or war time rationing.

Sounds like you have a nice portfolio. My Poor white family has been wiped out during this era, broken marriages, few or no kids. No one can afford to enjoy Amazon. It was not like this before.

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06-26-2017 02:27 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
France's fertility rate seems puzzling to you, because this rate, far from being consistent or homogeneous, has to be studied along different ethnic lines. The fertility rate (in France) is: constantly low for Native (meaning White) French women, high but stabilized for Maghrebi women, defiantly high and growing for Sub-Saharan female migrants.
06-26-2017 05:22 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-26-2017 02:27 PM)TheOllam Wrote:  
Quote:<SNIP>

Sounds like you have a nice portfolio. My Poor white family has been wiped out during this era, broken marriages, few or no kids. No one can afford to enjoy Amazon. It was not like this before.
Sorry to hear that man. Just because the economy in general has been good, it doesn't mean people don't fall through the cracks. I think there will be another recession and a bit of a "reset" in the next couple of years. I hope the future is going to work out for you and your family.

All the best.
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2017 06:24 PM by Running Turtles.)
06-26-2017 06:23 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-25-2017 08:08 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  
(06-25-2017 04:06 PM)Jean Valjean Wrote:  ...

Once that reservoir of human capital dries up, first world feminists are going to be even more frustrated than they are now, because they won't have any sex tourism hot spots they can visit for trysts with Javier. What are feminists going to do after they have emasculated the entire world, and thereby eliminated their penis paradises like the Caribbean, the south of France, etc.? Those are going to be dark days for the Eat, Pray, Love crowd.

Please.

Feminism is not an invasive weed. It's a hot-house orchid that takes insanely high levels of productivity to grow and maintain.

The very second the world's economy undergoes any sort of serious reset or an real, actual war starts feminism will become a footnote in the history books. A piddly little *notation that explains why our forces got off to a somewhat slow start.

I think it basically would have to be a civil war in Europe or the United States.

Its too likely that World War 3 would be fought on foreign soil and not at home. A decline in the male population wouldn't be enough in my opinion. Eastern Europe has really low birth rates despite having a more patriarchal culture and a favorable male to female population.

Also, I don't know if an economic event is enough. During the Great Depression, birth rates in the United States and Europe plunged below or near replacement levels. Your likely to see even a larger plunge this time around since women have far greater financial means then before to survive without males.

Im not sure about World War 3 but I am positive that we are on our way to the greatest crash of all time.
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2017 06:32 PM by godzilla.)
06-26-2017 06:31 PM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-26-2017 06:31 PM)godzilla Wrote:  I think it basically would have to be a civil war in Europe or the United States.

Its too likely that World War 3 would be fought on foreign soil and not at home. A decline in the male population wouldn't be enough in my opinion. Eastern Europe has really low birth rates despite having a more patriarchal culture and a favorable male to female population.

Also, I don't know if an economic event is enough. During the Great Depression, birth rates in the United States and Europe plunged below or near replacement levels.
Your likely to see even a larger plunge this time around since women have far greater financial means then before to survive without males.

Im not sure about World War 3 but I am positive that we are on our way to the greatest crash of all time.

Smart k-selected societies react to economic pressure, they don't pump out babies willy-nilly just because they feel like it. Eastern European women as soon as moving to the West usually get pregnant way faster and have mostly 2 babies, because the financial support from the state is there. At least most of them don't want to be single moms, so this does not destabilize the society.

In terms of demographics our society does not need much of a population growth due to our technology. I have often said that we can feed 100% of the population by 3% of 50yo farmers. In the past you required 70-90% of the population to be employed in agriculture in order to survive. So of course if fertility dropped, then the workers were not there in the next generation and a tribe starved.

Nowadays you could probably survive by letting 20%-30% of the population work. The women for example could stay at home and only staff the brothels - they would not even be missed after a year of readjustment. Keep that in mind - we could let 50% of the population just rest and would likely be doing better in economic terms.

Either way - feminists are bat-shit crazy and we know this.
06-27-2017 02:43 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-26-2017 06:31 PM)godzilla Wrote:  Eastern Europe has really low birth rates despite having a more patriarchal culture and a favorable male to female population.

Eastern Europe doesn't have patriarchal culture. Eastern Europe has equility of sexes, just without the excessive punishments for men west has - that is divorce and alimony in Eastern Europe is not as expensive, simply because these countries are poorer and cannot afford to economically destroy it's citizens. But women are free to do whatever they want, there is no big diference between western and eastern Europe. Also you can critisize feminizm and make sexist jokes openly. But women do have the same rights and that hurts demographics, because if women have nominally the same rights they are superior technically due to traditions forcing men to pay for dates, doing hard tasks for women and so on.

A favourable male to female ratio means little if people use contraception. And when it is not used - it's stable relationships where ratio is 1:1, but people are too poor to afford many children. Unlike Africans or Arabs who will breed despite being much poorer, Eastern Europeans are self-conscious enough to draw the line.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2017 03:20 AM by Mage.)
06-27-2017 03:16 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
Rome and Sparta fell due to no small part feminism, yet nobody mentioned it in history. Nobody, except for a few good historians who digs around for manuscripts from non-mainstream sources.

As Leonard says, when all is said and done and a new order is re-established, people will quickly forget it as a stupid joke of the time. Then they will prosper, then the joke will be forgotten, and feminism rears its ugly head again.

In this way I think feminism is deadlier than it seems, because people quickly forget about it so they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

The guy who thought it was a good idea to give women sufffrage totally didnt study history.

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06-27-2017 03:30 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-27-2017 03:16 AM)Mage Wrote:  
(06-26-2017 06:31 PM)godzilla Wrote:  Eastern Europe has really low birth rates despite having a more patriarchal culture and a favorable male to female population.

Eastern Europe doesn't have patriarchal culture. Eastern Europe has equility of sexes, just without the excessive punishments for men west has - that is divorce and alimony in Eastern Europe is not as expensive, simply because these countries are poorer and cannot afford to economically destroy it's citizens. But women are free to do whatever they want, there is no big diference between western and eastern Europe. Also you can critisize feminizm and make sexist jokes openly. But women do have the same rights and that hurts demographics, because if women have nominally the same rights they are superior technically due to traditions forcing men to pay for dates, doing hard tasks for women and so on.

A favourable male to female ratio means little if people use contraception. And when it is not used - it's stable relationships where ratio is 1:1, but people are too poor to afford many children. Unlike Africans or Arabs who will breed despite being much poorer, Eastern Europeans are self-conscious enough to draw the line.

Probably too broad of a term. Women do not hold the same economic, political and social power that they do in Western countries
06-27-2017 06:01 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-27-2017 06:01 AM)godzilla Wrote:  
(06-27-2017 03:16 AM)Mage Wrote:  
(06-26-2017 06:31 PM)godzilla Wrote:  Eastern Europe has really low birth rates despite having a more patriarchal culture and a favorable male to female population.

Eastern Europe doesn't have patriarchal culture. Eastern Europe has equility of sexes, just without the excessive punishments for men west has - that is divorce and alimony in Eastern Europe is not as expensive, simply because these countries are poorer and cannot afford to economically destroy it's citizens. But women are free to do whatever they want, there is no big diference between western and eastern Europe. Also you can critisize feminizm and make sexist jokes openly. But women do have the same rights and that hurts demographics, because if women have nominally the same rights they are superior technically due to traditions forcing men to pay for dates, doing hard tasks for women and so on.

A favourable male to female ratio means little if people use contraception. And when it is not used - it's stable relationships where ratio is 1:1, but people are too poor to afford many children. Unlike Africans or Arabs who will breed despite being much poorer, Eastern Europeans are self-conscious enough to draw the line.

Probably too broad of a term. Women do not hold the same economic, political and social power that they do in Western countries

Only because they haven't taken that power. There is nohing stopping them if they would decide to.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2017 06:17 AM by Mage.)
06-27-2017 06:16 AM
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RE: "Natalist feminists" seek to slow the population decline
(06-27-2017 03:30 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Rome and Sparta fell due to no small part feminism, yet nobody mentioned it in history. Nobody, except for a few good historians who digs around for manuscripts from non-mainstream sources.

As Leonard says, when all is said and done and a new order is re-established, people will quickly forget it as a stupid joke of the time. Then they will prosper, then the joke will be forgotten, and feminism rears its ugly head again.

In this way I think feminism is deadlier than it seems, because people quickly forget about it so they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

The guy who thought it was a good idea to give women sufffrage totally didnt study history.

What are the best sources for the Spartan and Roman feminist "movements" or realties that aided their respective demise?

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06-27-2017 10:05 AM
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