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Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
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Beirut Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Yeah for the caribbean options, its usually much cheaper to just donate the 100-200k than to buy the real estate at 400k, since that will be insanely overpriced by amounts that exceed the donation (they usually restrict the purchase options to certain projects, you cant just go look for a house and buy it).

And add to that youll have the hassle of having a house and having to take care of any fees/work it needs

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12-23-2017 03:03 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Macedonia is now formalizing its citizenship by investment program:

Quote:Macedonia's government offers citizenship to anyone who invests at least 400,000 euros or 515,000 U.S. dollars and employs at least 10 people.

Referring to an initiative launched in 2012, anybody investing over 400,000 euros can have citizenship and a passport. In addition, foreigners who buy real estate worth over 40,000 euros are allowed the right to stay in the country for a year. According to the then Prime Minister, Nikola Gruevski, this move of Macedonian government was aimed to ease residency requirements for foreign investors who buy real estate in Macedonia or invest in country's economy.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-01...886193.htm
01-16-2018 03:14 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Count Pierre Wrote:  
(10-17-2017 06:44 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Rumor has it that Montenegro, Georgia, and Kazakhstan are working to create citizen by investment programs -- and that several other countries in the Balkans are also considering such programs. A recent CNN article mentions these facts and provides a good overview of citizen by investment programs and how they work.

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/multip...index.html

Moldova has since this summer a citizenship by investment program, with a contribution to a Public Investment Fund of 100,000 €, government bonds of 250,000€ (locked for 5 years), or property investment of 250,000 € (a 120 square meters baller penthouse in a last generation building with a prime location in Centru). The negative is that you have to maintain your investment for five years before getting a passport.

A moldovan passport allows you to travel to Russia and Belarus without visa.

For wealthy FSU addicts.

http://citizenshipbyinvestment.ch/index....t-program/

The Moldovan passport/second citizenship will be quite attractive once it starts: visa free travel to 102 nations? An ignored landlocked nation that will piggy-back on Romania's rise? And Ukrainian (eventual) peace and long-term prosperity? What's not to like? (I'm more optimistic about Moldova than Macedonia, the nation North of Greece).

THANKS for starting this thread Tail Gunner! The Obama years taught me and my friends that planning on a second-citizenship is important, despite the Patriot-Act era evisceration of financial privacy. I think planning on second citizenship is smart for any - and every one - who is 30-something (and older)!

If you don't have ancestry to fall back on, then citizenship by investment IS definitely on the table! Obviously money/wealth gives on options others don't have (cf, Elon Musk's mega-home leading to New Zealand citizenship is a premier example). I see the solution as a ladder of cost versus time (including foreign residency time), ascending from the bottom, here's my list:

4. Dominican Republic (NOT to be confused by "Dominica," also another island in the Caribbean, but a very small one). Corruption is great enough that one can "Buy" or accelerate residency and citizenship by making friends or buying advice, for $10-40K. Obviously, waiting time is longer with a cheaper price is the trade-off, but what do you get? Access only to other Caribbean nations. Will that do? For many American's that's enough.

3. Paraguay. Land-locked in South America, it is a much more desirable passport. Rules are similar to DR (ABOVE), but it is a much rougher country. One first-hand report says the capital there is like the bar-scene in the original "Star Wars" pic - open carry and CC arms, and lethal fights can break out, kind of like the westerns of your grand parent's time. Don't be a gringo and drive! (You'll get stopped by the cops for shake-down pay-offs!) Do know Spanish to protect yourself and do make friends and influence locals to keep costs low! $5-10K (Gotta put money in a bank account for a short period!)

2. Chile. THIS is still THE best option. Argentina takes two years, but one must be resident for that time and plan in advance for the future citizenship - documentation, documents - at the outset there. Chile takes longer, but for an "investment" time of six months (can be down to 3 or 4) for residency, then wait five years, PLUS Spanish competency - and use the option of getting annual waiver from Chilean embassy if not physically in Chile. The Chilean passport is top-10 most desirable. Taxation by residency only! Escape US tax burdens (by renouncing US citizenship). For the farsighted and patient and cheap, Chile is the best option!

1. Moldova. What if you're not farsighted and not patient and not cheap? Or too much of any of these? Right now for a similar range of investment, you can do Nevis-St Kitt's until April (SEE post above)! What to do later? Look to Moldova for 102 visa free travel, including EU. Or what if you don't like South America/Latin America? Wait for Moldova to buy!

The Obamunist era taught me that governments change and liberty will be lost - quickly. Even in the age of Trump, the ruling GOP is eager to sell out your Fourth Amendment freedoms! How do you protect yourself? GET A SECOND CITIZENSHIP/PASSPORT. Invest in your liberty.

If you can't travel (because of the nature of your work), you can buy later. If you work location independent, then options are available, if you think and plan ahead. If you can't travel and change your mind, you can buy.

What about options like Vanuatu? Their desirability is limited by the number of nations they give you entry to - plus they are in the far-off Pacific. This may well work for those into SEA and China, etc. This is off my map of expertise - seek others for advice.

But for my money - and given the fact that Spanish is the most sensible second language for most Americans - this is my list. And I'm sticking to it.

Finally, what about a third citizenship (as mentioned above)? Some people get carried away with the process of gaining one, two - why not more? If you have a poor quality passport like DR or Vanuatu or Carmoro (sp?), then it makes sense. Otherwise, it can mean trouble (conflicting laws - and the law may change in time), and a third gains little. Unless marriage gives you one.

Many nations accept dual citizenship, often as a price for marriage/family integration, etc. But some nations accept dual citizenships but reject a third - they might require to to renounce and surrender it! Then you've wasted money and time in getting it.

Planning for a future of freedom can only go so far. But in general, more options mean better protection against losing it! GET second citizenship/passport - by residence, ancestry or buy it.

Thanks Tail Gunner for deepening the discussion here

“There is no global anthem, no global currency, no certificate of global citizenship. We pledge allegiance to one flag, and that flag is the American flag!” -DJT
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2018 06:44 PM by Orson.)
01-18-2018 06:38 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
A few recent updates. Turkey has not raised as much revenue as it expected from its citizenship by investment program, so it is lowering the cost from having to buy a $1 million property to buying a $300k property. You must own the property for at least three years before applying for citizenship.

Quote:The disappointing outcome has led the government to consider lowering the $1 million bar as part of other measures designed to boost foreign realty purchases. The planned amendments, part of an omnibus bill expected to be submitted to parliament in May, expand the citizenship entitlement to properties that are worth at least $300,000, along with other proposals to simplify red tape on title deeds and licenses.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina...uyers.html


While Turkey has become a huge success economically, politically it is sliding in the wrong direction. So keep that in mind. On the other hand, if you have American dollars your purchasing power in Turkey has gone up by about 350% over the past ten years. Check out the ten-year USD/TRY chart:

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=...Y&view=10Y


In the Caribbean, many countries have reduced various fees in the wake of that destructive hurricane and the need to raise capital:

Quote:And for the time being, there’s a fire sale on some of the Caribbean passports.

After the 2017 hurricanes, many countries in the Caribbean realize they need a lot of money for rebuilding. The best way to attract new clients? Slash prices.

Saint Kitts introduced a brand new discounted donation option that saves single applicants $100,000 and families of four just over $100,000. Grenada reduced its donation option from $200,000 to $150,000 (plus fees) for a single applicant.

Antigua and Barbuda slashed its donations minimum in half. And Dominica cut its government fees 50% even before the storms.

https://www.sovereignman.com/citizenship...2_passport


Here is a comparison chart of the cost of most, but not all, CIP programs (it may take a few seconds to download):

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sm-cdn/reports/..._Sheet.pdf
(This post was last modified: 04-17-2018 04:16 PM by Tail Gunner.)
04-17-2018 04:03 PM
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nola Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Count Pierre Wrote:  
(10-17-2017 06:44 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Rumor has it that Montenegro, Georgia, and Kazakhstan are working to create citizen by investment programs -- and that several other countries in the Balkans are also considering such programs. A recent CNN article mentions these facts and provides a good overview of citizen by investment programs and how they work.

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/multip...index.html

Moldova has since this summer a citizenship by investment program, with a contribution to a Public Investment Fund of 100,000 €, government bonds of 250,000€ (locked for 5 years), or property investment of 250,000 € (a 120 square meters baller penthouse in a last generation building with a prime location in Centru). The negative is that you have to maintain your investment for five years before getting a passport.

A moldovan passport allows you to travel to Russia and Belarus without visa.

For wealthy FSU addicts.

http://citizenshipbyinvestment.ch/index....t-program/

Actually there is a way around this in Moldova and I know from a past experience (maybe still) in Ukraine. All you need is a lawyer with the proper connections if you get my hint. It takes a bit of calling around and I'd suggest seeking an attorney outside of the capital cities.

With the right attorney and it'll cost some money you can get a legal citizenship pretty quickly in places like Moldova and maybe still Ukraine.

In Ukraine for example which does not allow for dual citizenship I started communicating with an attorney a few years back who had achieved this for an American friend of mine. He still holds a valid US Passport and I have traveled with him to Belarus where he used and with my own eyes watched border patrol scan his Ukrainian visa and pass him right through.

(I just called him to check to see if he still uses both his US and Ukrainian Passports and he said yes and has not had any issues.)

The attorney I was communicating with wanted 15k and said I'd be able to pick up my citizenship docs in a few weeks at a Ukraine consulate of my choice outside of Ukraine and then go back and and apply to get my (legal) passport. Only reason I decided to forego this is I have dual citizenship in a EU country and the US and it was not going to provide a lot of added benefit already having a business visa in Ukraine.

I want to emphasize it's not just any attorney that can do this, you have to call until you get one that knows the right people and the system which is basically what my friend did to avoid having to marry his girlfriend. Pretty much every attorney called until he found his guy told him marriage was his quickest option.

Note this experience was before Ukraine's anti corruption act so I don't know if that changed the game. And I really don't know how, who and what exactly the attorney I spoke with did to execute and expedite the process. But in Ukraine as they say (It's Ukraine).

I don't really see the point though with the Ukraine these days but maybe Moldova. There are also several EU countries an American without any direct relatives can obtain dual citizenship with an investment into a connected lawyer and a little time. A lot of countries have multitudes of avenues for obtaining naturalization and not just residency that don't always require hefty investments and years of residency.

I've always lawyer shopped in countries I've lived and worked in. FSU (excluding Russia I'd assume) most all of the countries have very fucked up systems where the officials couldn't give a fuck about the way they are "supposed" to do their job or follow their procedures.

I have a family member that is pretty high up in INS in the USA and to paraphrase him. (Even in the US a good attorney who knows the right people can pretty much make anything happen as fast as you want) I'm sure it would be mega bucks to pull something like this off in the US though.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2018 10:06 AM by nola.)
04-20-2018 09:30 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(04-20-2018 09:30 AM)nola Wrote:  A lot of countries have multitudes of avenues for obtaining naturalization and not just residency that don't always require hefty investments and years of residency.

I've always lawyer shopped in countries I've lived and worked in. FSU (excluding Russia I'd assume) most all of the countries have very fucked up systems where the officials couldn't give a fuck about the way they are "supposed" to do their job or follow their procedures.

Thanks for posting. What you refer to is a gray market passport, which comes with many risks -- especially if a new administration decides to clean up corruption (and decides to retroactively examine previously issued passports for compliance with all laws) or if a new computer system is installed to track down potential gray passports. If you do take this route, make certain that you obtain not only the passport but also the certificate of citizenship or some other proof of naturalization. Pay half of the money up front and then half the money when you obtain both the passport and the certificate of citizenship.

Quote:Grey Market and Black Market Passports

A grey market passport is one where not all the criteria ordinarily necessary for its issuance are enforced. In recent years, promoters have offered passports from Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Greece, Guyana, Lithuania, Mexico, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Portugal, Romania, and other countries on this basis. In most cases, the promoter finds a corruptible insider with the ability to issue a passport with few if any questions asked.

The passport is genuine and officially issued, but in an unofficial and unauthorized manner. Depending on the quality of the insider access, a certificate of naturalization may or may not accompany the passport. Without naturalization, it may not be possible to renew the passport, to use it to enter and leave the country, or even to open a local bank account.

https://www.nestmann.com/white-market-gr...-passports
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2018 10:21 AM by Tail Gunner.)
04-20-2018 10:19 AM
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nola Offline
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(04-20-2018 10:19 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 09:30 AM)nola Wrote:  A lot of countries have multitudes of avenues for obtaining naturalization and not just residency that don't always require hefty investments and years of residency.

I've always lawyer shopped in countries I've lived and worked in. FSU (excluding Russia I'd assume) most all of the countries have very fucked up systems where the officials couldn't give a fuck about the way they are "supposed" to do their job or follow their procedures.

Thanks for posting. What you refer to is a gray market passport, which comes with many risks -- especially if a new administration decides to clean up corruption (and decides to retroactively examine previously issued passports for compliance with all laws) or if a new computer system is installed to track down potential gray passports. If you do take this route, make certain that you obtain not only the passport but also the certificate of citizenship or some other proof of naturalization. Pay half of the money up front and then half the money when you obtain both the passport and the certificate of citizenship.

Quote:Grey Market and Black Market Passports

A grey market passport is one where not all the criteria ordinarily necessary for its issuance are enforced. In recent years, promoters have offered passports from Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Greece, Guyana, Lithuania, Mexico, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Portugal, Romania, and other countries on this basis. In most cases, the promoter finds a corruptible insider with the ability to issue a passport with few if any questions asked.

The passport is genuine and officially issued, but in an unofficial and unauthorized manner. Depending on the quality of the insider access, a certificate of naturalization may or may not accompany the passport. Without naturalization, it may not be possible to renew the passport, to use it to enter and leave the country, or even to open a local bank account.

https://www.nestmann.com/white-market-gr...-passports

This is why I emphasize using legal representation to obtain all documents and passport. And I'd suspect it would take more than one corruptible insider to make anything legit and highly doubt a non local would even be able to take on such a task without a lawyer to make sure everything is legit.

Also it's not something I would try to do myself nor advise anyone to attempt to do themselves without a trusted attorney. I would not call my friends passport and papers necessarily grey as he went through few different government bodies to get different documents and were not handed to him by his Attorney.

Thanks for your reply and also I'll note in Ukraine there is a very large underground market for faked/forged passports and documents so unless you're picking up your papers outside of Ukraine at a Ukrainian consulate and getting your passport at a issuing body in Ukraine you can best bet the stuff you're getting is fraudulent and will not work even short term. And god only knows what the authorities would do to you if caught with fake papers. I have a Moldovan friend who did 6 months in jail for it but not sure about Ukraine or Moldova if you were non local. I'm sure the penalties and cost would be even worse plus the possibilities of also facing additional charges when you return to your home country. In the USA the Foreign Anti Corruption Act covers this.

Also agree with the half up front rule but would go even futher as to say run the fee schedule per each issued document.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2018 11:21 AM by nola.)
04-20-2018 11:18 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(04-20-2018 11:18 AM)nola Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 10:19 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 09:30 AM)nola Wrote:  A lot of countries have multitudes of avenues for obtaining naturalization and not just residency that don't always require hefty investments and years of residency.

I've always lawyer shopped in countries I've lived and worked in. FSU (excluding Russia I'd assume) most all of the countries have very fucked up systems where the officials couldn't give a fuck about the way they are "supposed" to do their job or follow their procedures.

Thanks for posting. What you refer to is a gray market passport, which comes with many risks -- especially if a new administration decides to clean up corruption (and decides to retroactively examine previously issued passports for compliance with all laws) or if a new computer system is installed to track down potential gray passports. If you do take this route, make certain that you obtain not only the passport but also the certificate of citizenship or some other proof of naturalization. Pay half of the money up front and then half the money when you obtain both the passport and the certificate of citizenship.

Quote:Grey Market and Black Market Passports

A grey market passport is one where not all the criteria ordinarily necessary for its issuance are enforced. In recent years, promoters have offered passports from Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Greece, Guyana, Lithuania, Mexico, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Portugal, Romania, and other countries on this basis. In most cases, the promoter finds a corruptible insider with the ability to issue a passport with few if any questions asked.

The passport is genuine and officially issued, but in an unofficial and unauthorized manner. Depending on the quality of the insider access, a certificate of naturalization may or may not accompany the passport. Without naturalization, it may not be possible to renew the passport, to use it to enter and leave the country, or even to open a local bank account.

https://www.nestmann.com/white-market-gr...-passports

This is why I emphasize using legal representation to obtain all documents and passport. And I'd suspect it would take more than one corruptible insider to make anything legit and highly doubt a non local would even be able to take on such a task without a lawyer to make sure everything is legit.

You are missing a very important point here. Lawyers in third world countries are not like lawyers in the West (where the codes of ethical conduct have the force of law and who you know will not keep you from getting disbarred or even jailed). Lawyers in third world countries are the ones who often expedite gray market passports, by disbursing your payment as a soft bribe among all the necessary "fixers" in order to skirt the law. Even if you retain a lawyer, if your path to citizenship does not follow that country's naturalization law, then you have a gray market passport and you have potential legal problems.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2018 12:34 PM by Tail Gunner.)
04-20-2018 12:29 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(04-20-2018 12:29 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 11:18 AM)nola Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 10:19 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 09:30 AM)nola Wrote:  A lot of countries have multitudes of avenues for obtaining naturalization and not just residency that don't always require hefty investments and years of residency.

I've always lawyer shopped in countries I've lived and worked in. FSU (excluding Russia I'd assume) most all of the countries have very fucked up systems where the officials couldn't give a fuck about the way they are "supposed" to do their job or follow their procedures.

Thanks for posting. What you refer to is a gray market passport, which comes with many risks -- especially if a new administration decides to clean up corruption (and decides to retroactively examine previously issued passports for compliance with all laws) or if a new computer system is installed to track down potential gray passports. If you do take this route, make certain that you obtain not only the passport but also the certificate of citizenship or some other proof of naturalization. Pay half of the money up front and then half the money when you obtain both the passport and the certificate of citizenship.

Quote:Grey Market and Black Market Passports

A grey market passport is one where not all the criteria ordinarily necessary for its issuance are enforced. In recent years, promoters have offered passports from Belize, Bulgaria, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Greece, Guyana, Lithuania, Mexico, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Portugal, Romania, and other countries on this basis. In most cases, the promoter finds a corruptible insider with the ability to issue a passport with few if any questions asked.

The passport is genuine and officially issued, but in an unofficial and unauthorized manner. Depending on the quality of the insider access, a certificate of naturalization may or may not accompany the passport. Without naturalization, it may not be possible to renew the passport, to use it to enter and leave the country, or even to open a local bank account.

https://www.nestmann.com/white-market-gr...-passports

This is why I emphasize using legal representation to obtain all documents and passport. And I'd suspect it would take more than one corruptible insider to make anything legit and highly doubt a non local would even be able to take on such a task without a lawyer to make sure everything is legit.

You are missing a very important point here. Lawyers in third world countries are not like lawyers in the West (where the codes of ethical conduct have the force of law and who you know will not keep you from getting disbarred or even jailed). Lawyers in third world countries are the ones who often expedite gray market passports, by disbursing your payment as a soft bribe among all the necessary "fixers" in order to skirt the law. Even if you retain a lawyer, if your path to citizenship does not follow that country's naturalization law, then you have a gray market passport and you have potential legal problems.

Correct and I'm very aware of that and do not disagree with anything you're saying. But in the essence of liability if the lawyer in at least Ukraine is doing the work you have some leverage if an authority deems your papers and passport to be obtained unethically as long as you can prove you had a lawyer handle the process.

Although not related to citizenship I have endured complex litigation cases in Eastern Europe from IP law to Employment and visas for foreign workers for my company. Even once a criminal case with a former UK employee who was being hunted by the SSU in Ukraine for some offenses unrelated to my company but one the offenses involved papers regarding a business visa. I.E. I've spent a lot of hours in a Ukrainian Court Room for a wide range things. (I'm not a lawyer or expert in this but I've at least gotten to see the system in Ukraine at work) And I can't think of anything we didn't solve for more than a few thousand euros pretty quickly which mostly amounted to bullshit fines (not bribes) to solve almost any problem. Ukraine has fines for almost anything you could imagine. And if there is no fine the lawyers will agree to run it under some other law and wrap it as a fine to make it not look like some bribe.

Remember we are talking about an incredibly fucked up country here.

I'm not advocating doing anything illegal but because my former UK employee worked through our law firm we used at the time he did not not face any penalties for the firms/lawyers wrong doings. In fact the lawyer was charged with some crimes for what ever he did to obtain the employees permits. Also My former employee was allowed to continue work and living in Ukraine after.

I'm not advocating getting a grey passport, also don't take what I'm saying as arguing against your points which are correct. I'm merely pointing out no matter how corrupt say Ukraine or Moldova is there is still a level of due process if a person gets caught up in something as long as he can prove he used legal representation and trust me even lawyers behind some of this shit know what their doing and will have the network to sweep whatever under the rug quickly.

It's more likely for them to go after the attorney. Also lawyers do lose their licenses in Ukraine for offenses. Happens all the time.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2018 01:16 PM by nola.)
04-20-2018 01:03 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
What about residency by investment? You generally have to acquire residency before you acquire citizenship.

I have heard that you can get residency in Panama by having only $2000 in the bank. You can apply for citizenship after five years. You only need to be in Panama for one day a year. Is this correct?

Perú requires that you have about $30,000 in the bank. But apparently you can take it out as soon as you get residency. I don't know how long it takes to get citizenship. Anyone know?
06-06-2018 12:27 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
What about residency by investment? You generally have to acquire residency before you acquire citizenship.

I have heard that you can get residency in Panama by having only $2000 in the bank. You can apply for citizenship after five years. You only need to be in Panama for one day a year. Is this correct?


https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-67468...pid1751562


Perú requires that you have about $30,000 in the bank. But apparently you can take it out as soon as you get residency. I don't know how long it takes to get citizenship. Anyone know?

The President of Peru must sign each naturalization application -- and the previous President refused to sign any of them. So, anyone who did not know this fact wasted their time and money. This is the exact type of boots-on-the-ground information that you must obtain. I do not know the policy of the new President of Peru in this regard.
(This post was last modified: 06-06-2018 12:58 AM by Tail Gunner.)
06-06-2018 12:51 AM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Interesting thread. Given the increasing likelihood of my country (South Africa) facing a bloody implosion shortly, I, like all minority members in South Africa, have quietly been hatching my escape-route.

Realistically, its pretty much only the super-wealthy that can "buy" citizenship to desirable and economically vibrant locales. I could fork out perhaps a $150 k but in my circumstance it would be pretty worthless to move to Dominica. Yeah, do it to assist with tax planning perhaps but most of these cheap citizenship programmes aren't worth it for the average guy - probably better of spending half a decade to get your papers in Australia (really difficult to get in atm even for high level professionals from what I here - should have move there two decades ago)
I've been thinking about going the property investment route to land a resident visa in either Colombia or Mexico but we'll see how it pans out.

By virtue of Indian ancestry I have an OCI (Overseas Citizen of India) card that is effectively lifelong permanent residency and allows for expedited citizenship (requires 12 months of staying in India - though India does not allow for dual citizenship unfortunately). I may invest to secure some form or the other here to ensure I have another home and some assets. Either way, I'm divesting from South Africa quickly.

If you have dual citizenship to two good countries - consider yourself lucky.
07-11-2018 11:25 AM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-11-2018 11:25 AM)MANic Wrote:  I've been thinking about going the property investment route to land a resident visa in either Colombia or Mexico but we'll see how it pans out.

Considering your circumstances, those are not bad options. If you eventually gain citizenship, both offer good passports. Citizenship by investment works well for people with a portable business who can bounce to a new country every three months. South Africans with European ancestry have more options, because there are certain countries that will grant citizenship based just on ancestry (although you may need to give up your current citizenship or learn the local language).

For example, if you have a descendant that was part of the Hungarian portion of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, then you can obtain Hungarian citizenship (if you learn the language). Parts of present-day Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Slovakia, and other countries were in the vast Austro-Hungarian Empire, so many people with ancestors who lived in portions of those modern-day countries do not even realize that they potentially have this option.
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2018 11:47 AM by Tail Gunner.)
07-11-2018 11:45 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Mother died a month ago and that got me a lot of cash. I've been reading another book which claims that only countries are offering this--1. Dominica. 2. Saint Kitts and Nevis. My source is this book, which was published two years ago:

http://sovereignsociety.com/spending-wave-book/

Any other books you might recommend.

Dominica definitely looks better than the other option. The cost is less. Both countries speak English, and both are part of the Commonwealth. So, that would get me access to other countries in the Commonwealth.
07-30-2018 08:18 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-30-2018 08:18 AM)puckerman Wrote:  Mother died a month ago and that got me a lot of cash. I've been reading another book which claims that only countries are offering this--1. Dominica. 2. Saint Kitts and Nevis. My source is this book, which was published two years ago:

http://sovereignsociety.com/spending-wave-book/

Any other books you might recommend.

Dominica definitely looks better than the other option. The cost is less. Both countries speak English, and both are part of the Commonwealth. So, that would get me access to other countries in the Commonwealth.

Condolences on the passing of your mother. As you can see, any book that you read on the subject will be out-of-date by the time of publication. Just look at all the changes in the CBI programs since the hurricane. Here is a list of most of the CBI programs:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sm-cdn/reports/..._Sheet.pdf

The next step is to find an accurate list of all the visa-free countries for each passport and then compare the visa-free travel value of each passport as compared to the price, which is already done in the chart cited above, and then determine which countries on that visa-free list you would travel to the most. Here is a good summary of the CBI programs:

https://www.sovereignman.com/citizenship-by-investment/
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2018 09:03 AM by Tail Gunner.)
07-30-2018 08:57 AM
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Post: #41
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(10-17-2017 06:44 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Rumor has it that Montenegro, Georgia, and Kazakhstan are working to create citizen by investment programs -- and that several other countries in the Balkans are also considering such programs. A recent CNN article mentions these facts and provides a good overview of citizen by investment programs and how they work.

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/multip...index.html

It is no longer a rumor. Montenegro has just announced its Citizenship by Investment (CBI) program:

Quote:Montenegro's government plans to offer citizenship to foreign investors who are willing to invest in the country, especially in the undeveloped north.

The government on Thursday said it was preparing an "economic citizenship" package designed for foreign investors, and the scheme would begin on October 1.

Montenegrin passports will be available to investors who invest 250.000 euros in undeveloped regions in the north, or 450,000 euros in developed regions in the centre and south.

The number of passports granted through this program is limited to 2,000 in the next three years. The government will charge a fee of up to 100,000 euros per application.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/...07-27-2018
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2018 05:14 PM by Tail Gunner.)
07-31-2018 05:13 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
What do you think of the Greece golden visa program for only 250,000 euro real estate investment? It sounds like the cheapest option to get permanent residency in the EU/schengen countries.
07-31-2018 08:15 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-31-2018 08:15 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  What do you think of the Greece golden visa program for only 250,000 euro real estate investment? It sounds like the cheapest option to get permanent residency in the EU/schengen countries.

This thread is about citizenship by investment, not residency by investment, so I do not know much about it. Supposedly, you can obtain citizenship after seven years of residency, but the question is whether you must actually reside in Greece for seven years to obtain citizenship or whether just having permanent residency for seven years is enough. If the second scenario applies, then it could be a real bargain if you can gain citizenship while simply living in your home country. I doubt that is the case, however. It could also be a bargain if Greece eventually decides to leave the EU and property values in Greece plummet as a result, which could allow you to snap up prime income producing properties with your 250,000 Euros. Of course, then you would not have the right to reside in the rest of Europe.
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2018 09:08 PM by Tail Gunner.)
07-31-2018 09:04 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-31-2018 09:04 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(07-31-2018 08:15 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  What do you think of the Greece golden visa program for only 250,000 euro real estate investment? It sounds like the cheapest option to get permanent residency in the EU/schengen countries.

This thread is about citizenship by investment, not residency by investment, so I do not know much about it. Supposedly, you can obtain citizenship after seven years of residency, but the question is whether you must actually reside in Greece for seven years to obtain citizenship or whether just having permanent residency for seven years is enough. If the second scenario applies, then it could be a real bargain if you can gain citizenship while simply living in your home country. I doubt that is the case, however. It could also be a bargain if Greece eventually decides to leave the EU and property values in Greece plummet as a result, which could allow you to snap up prime income producing properties with your 250,000 Euros. Of course, then you would not have the right to reside in the rest of Europe.

You get a 5 year Visa from Greece and can travel anywhere in the EU. Plus there is no residency requirement to live in Greece, you just have to spend the 250,000 euro and fill the visa application. I think it automatically renews after 5 years as long as you don't sell the property. Its a 5 year resident permit, so somewhat similar to citizenship i guess. I think Vacation properties would be good investments that can be rented out to vacationers, especially properties on the coastline or islands. I don't think Greece would leave the EU since most of the EU banks still have outstanding loans being collected from Greece.
07-31-2018 11:48 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-31-2018 11:48 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  
(07-31-2018 09:04 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(07-31-2018 08:15 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  What do you think of the Greece golden visa program for only 250,000 euro real estate investment? It sounds like the cheapest option to get permanent residency in the EU/schengen countries.

This thread is about citizenship by investment, not residency by investment, so I do not know much about it. Supposedly, you can obtain citizenship after seven years of residency, but the question is whether you must actually reside in Greece for seven years to obtain citizenship or whether just having permanent residency for seven years is enough. If the second scenario applies, then it could be a real bargain if you can gain citizenship while simply living in your home country. I doubt that is the case, however. It could also be a bargain if Greece eventually decides to leave the EU and property values in Greece plummet as a result, which could allow you to snap up prime income producing properties with your 250,000 Euros. Of course, then you would not have the right to reside in the rest of Europe.

I don't think Greece would leave the EU since most of the EU banks still have outstanding loans being collected from Greece.

That is exactly why Greece would leave the EU, i.e., either to default on burdensome loans that it cannot possibly pay off or to pay off those loans by returning to a currency that it can control (i.e., the Drachma) so that it can steer its own economy.
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2018 11:58 PM by Tail Gunner.)
07-31-2018 11:56 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(07-31-2018 11:56 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  That is exactly why Greece would leave the EU, i.e., either to default on burdensome loans that it cannot possibly pay off or to pay off those loans by returning to a currency that it can control (i.e., the Drachma) so that it can steer its own economy.

At this point, Greece has paid a lot back and I don't think they will leave EU eny time soon. Plus, it would be a global disaster if they left and other countries left setting off a chain of events and ripples worse than Brexit. Plus, I don't know if it would be easy to convert back to Drachmas. And, Euros are useful for tourism which is a huge component of the Greece economy.
08-01-2018 12:24 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Before you go looking to pay for a passport, see if it can't get it through ancestry. I'm working on my 3rd passport and the only thing I've had to pay is postage.

You want to know the only thing you can assume about a broken down old man? It's that he's a survivor.
08-01-2018 12:47 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-01-2018 12:24 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  
(07-31-2018 11:56 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  That is exactly why Greece would leave the EU, i.e., either to default on burdensome loans that it cannot possibly pay off or to pay off those loans by returning to a currency that it can control (i.e., the Drachma) so that it can steer its own economy.

And, Euros are useful for tourism which is a huge component of the Greece economy.

Useful for tourism? The Euro is what devastated tourism and killed the Greek economy, just as it did in Italy, Portugal, and Spain. The strong Euro made everything in Greece more expensive, forcing tourists to look at other options. Greece has no control over its currency and thus has no economic options.

Quote:National currencies can correct trade deficits

Countries export and import, and compete in global markets. There are countries that have more developed economies and they can export much more than they import.

If a country imports much more than it exports, then, this country can devalue the local currency and reduce imports. Consumption of local products will increase and the trade deficit will be reduced this way. The point is that you can devalue if you have your own currency. Greece no longer has its own currency, it lost the Drachma a long time ago. The Greek economy has been kidnapped for a long time.

https://us.blastingnews.com/opinion/2017...59803.html
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2018 01:37 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-01-2018 01:36 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Great thread, Tail Gunner.

I would disregard the rubbish that Nola suggested earlier - governments do periodically audit citizenship registers, especially now that they're under pressure from the EU to secure their procedures. If you get caught, you'll be looking at a stint in prison or a large bribe to get yourself out of it. The 'wild west' way of doing things hasn't been advisable for at least a decade, even in the Ukraine.

Russia offers a citizenship by investment scheme. The process is somewhat lengthy compared to the tax haven offerings, but may be worthwhile if you're already considering opening a business. The requirements are:
- investment capital of at least 100M Roubles (~$160k)
- pay at least 6M Roubles (~$100k) of tax for three years
- not sure if knowledge of Russian is required. If it is, it will be at CEFR A2 level (ТРКИ - базовый уровень). If anyone is interested, I'll check.

As with most Russian bureacracy, there is very little subjectivity involved - if you've met the requirements, 99.999% of the time you'll get the prize.

It's also available to graduates of Russian universities (degree programmes only - language courses don't infer eligibility). Also those married to Russian citizens for at least three years, parents of Russian citizen children and 'compatriots' (those whose speak Russian natively and whose ancestors were born in Russia, the USSR or the Russian empire).

Quite a valuable citizenship for thought criminals given that Russia doesn't ever allow extradition of its citizens and the various US three-letter agencies are unable to operate in Russia. China is probably the only other nation that can match this.
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2018 03:51 PM by DaveR.)
08-01-2018 03:42 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-01-2018 03:42 PM)DaveR Wrote:  'compatriots' (those whose speak Russian natively and whose ancestors were born in Russia, the USSR or the Russian empire).

It appears that the compatriot law was repealed in 2002 (unless you have an update).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenshi...ct_of_1999
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2018 05:01 PM by Tail Gunner.)
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