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Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:43 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Maybe Georgia is a good second-passport option? Any info on this?

Mentioned in post #20.

Quote:"There's still a small percentage of countries, likely around 15, actively marketing versions of CIPs," says Katz.
"However, many more countries are considering adopting such programs. For example, Montenegro, Georgia and Kazakhstan are all working on creating programs, and several other countries in the Balkans are considering them."

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/multip...index.html


(08-07-2018 03:43 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Now, about this: "With regards to residency versus citizenship, it depends on your goal. If you want a place to live, to retire, or to have a bolthole (in the event of an economic meltdown or a serious domestic disturbance in your home country) then residency is fine. But if you want a second travel document in case yours gets revoked by your government", I wonder one thing:

If you have permanent residency in a country X and your thought-criminalizing home country Y revokes your passport, could you go to the consulate or embassy of country X and get a travel document enabling you to travel to country X, like a one-time, one-shot letter or temp passport? I seem to remember seeing this, people going back to their country with a letter valid for one transport (like, people getting deported)?
Concretely, if (when, I'm afraid) Western Europe enters civil war, would one (permanent resident of Panama) be able to go to Panama's embassy and obtain a letter or document, valid for one trip to Panama-city? Like the Red-cross or Church would give to people (and this included colorful German dudes traveling to Patagonia) after the end of WW2?

It is possible. Not really sure. One thing for certain: if you already have permanent residency in a country, it is far far more likely for that to happen than if you did not already have residency there. You would certainly go to the front of the line. They already know that you do not have a criminal record and that you have sufficient financial resources not to be a burden to the state.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 01:48 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-07-2018 01:46 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  If you try to exit the US on a foreign passport, they are going to ask you where is your Visa is. What are you going to say then? That you are an American citizen? Then they'll ask for your social security number or US passport, and they'll see that you are banned from traveling.

(You mean, Visa or mere entry stamp for EU passports?)

They'll ask... unless your foreign passport is brand new and has been issued at your local, US-based consulate. Then they'd probably try to find a trace of you in some database for entry-date, or just wave you off with a tired shrug.
08-07-2018 01:49 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  If you try to exit the US on a foreign passport, they are going to ask you where is your Visa is. What are you going to say then? That you are an American citizen? Then they'll ask for your social security number or US passport, and they'll see that you are banned from travelling.

You make many assumptions about things about which you have no knowledge. All you need to do is make it to the Mexican border. No one checks your ID traveling from the U.S. to Mexico (often times, not even the Mexicans), only on the way back. Then you fly from Mexico to wherever you wish.

https://www.quora.com/When-crossing-the-...who-enters


(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  If you can afford citizenship by investment, you can probably afford residency by investment too. I can't really see any difference in practicality.

I have no idea why you keep repeating this obviously erroneous statement. One gives you only the right to live in a country; the other gives you the right to travel almost anywhere in the world.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 02:02 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-07-2018 01:56 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  But (again, unless you're American and you renounce your American citizenship), simple residency is just as good.
That's quite a blanket statement; you may not have thought of situations in which citizenship holds advantages over residency, but that doen't necessarily mean that they don't exist.

Most tax treaties following the OECD model, for example, take the taxpayer's citizenship into consideration when determining domicile, thus residency in a foreign state is not at all equivalent in utility to citizenship. This is particularly relevant in the pre-2004 members of the EU, which have well-developed and tested domicile concepts. One of the most high-profile cases recently was that of Gerard Depardieu, who found it very difficult to terminate his French domicile without an associated change in his citizenship status.

I know for sure that citizenship also comes into play in determining domicile under Italian domestic legislation. That country also applies anti-offshoring rules which make it difficult for currently-domiciled citizens to shift his residence to a low-tax country, for example upon retirement.


(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  Anyway, a driver's license usually can be obtained in most third world countries for a fee. No need for any paperwork.
I wouldn't recommend doing so. Should you find yourself involved in an accident, even a rudimentary investigation would uncover that you aren't legally licenced - something which could easily lead to a prison sentence.


(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  Most first world countries won't issue you a driver's license (even if you are a citizen), unless you are domiciled there for tax reasons.
In most of the OECD, some kind of physical residence is required, yes. Domicile is a separate issue - I've never heard of any country that required tax domicile before becoming eligible for a licence. That would preclude most resident foreigners, which would be highly unusual except possibly in the middle east.


(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  So, citizenship does not affect your ability to obtain a driver's license.
Again, that is quite a blanket statement. There are countries which apply different tests of eligibility depending on whether the applicant is a resident foreigner or a citizen.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 03:23 PM by DaveR.)
08-07-2018 03:21 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 01:56 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  You make many assumptions about things about which you have no knowledge. All you need to do is make it to the Mexican border. No one checks your ID traveling from the U.S. to Mexico (often times, not even the Mexicans), only on the way back. Then you fly from Mexico to wherever you wish.

But then you'd technically be in Mexico illegally, since your Comoran/Panaminian/Antiguan passport won't have a Mexican entry stamp in it. If you say you crossed the border from the US, they are going to ask you why you don't have a US stamp. So, while it's probably possible due to corruption in Mexico...it's still not bulletproof nor is it technically legal. There are much simpler ways to travel illegally than obtaining a second citizenship in a foreign country.

Quote:I have no idea why you keep repeating this obviously erroneous statement. One gives you only the right to live in a country; the other gives you the right to travel almost anywhere in the world.

So if you have Antiguan citizenship you are allowed to travel anywhere in the world? More countries than if you held say, a UK or American passport? I doubt it.
08-07-2018 03:28 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 01:49 PM)Going strong Wrote:  (You mean, Visa or mere entry stamp for EU passports?)

They'll ask... unless your foreign passport is brand new and has been issued at your local, US-based consulate. Then they'd probably try to find a trace of you in some database for entry-date, or just wave you off with a tired shrug.

If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US. They're going to make you prove when you entered the country, show documentation etc and ask why you don't have a stamp. The passport will say where it was issued (which shouldn't be in the US). And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. They'll trace their database and see that this is in fact your first foreign passport, and that you didn't enter the country on this one.

It can go two ways: Either they find out you are an American and stop you from travelling (since you owe Federal taxes or haven't paid child support), or they'll suppose you are a European being in the country illegally and ban you from reentering for 10 years.
08-07-2018 03:34 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:21 PM)DaveR Wrote:  Again, that is quite a blanket statement. There are countries which apply different tests of eligibility depending on whether the applicant is a resident foreigner or a citizen.

Fair enough. I am Swedish by birth, a citizen there, but Sweden won't issue me a new driver's license since I am not officially domiciled/resident for tax purposes in Sweden anymore. It is possible that other countries have different rules, so I stand corrected.

Still, obtaining a driver's license should always be possible as long as you are an official resident in a country. I have held driver's licenses from many different countries throughout the years, all legally. None of which I have been a citizen in.
08-07-2018 03:39 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 01:49 PM)Going strong Wrote:  (You mean, Visa or mere entry stamp for EU passports?)

They'll ask... unless your foreign passport is brand new and has been issued at your local, US-based consulate. Then they'd probably try to find a trace of you in some database for entry-date, or just wave you off with a tired shrug.

If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US. They're going to make you prove when you entered the country, show documentation etc and ask why you don't have a stamp. The passport will say where it was issued (which shouldn't be in the US). And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. They'll trace their database and see that this is in fact your first foreign passport, and that you didn't enter the country on this one.

It can go two ways: Either they find out you are an American and stop you from travelling (since you owe Federal taxes or haven't paid child support), or they'll suppose you are a European being in the country illegally and ban you from reentering for 10 years.

Quote: "If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US": it's not a visa per se, it's more like, a visa-waiver thing. A mere Travel Authorization.

Quote: And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. You might be right, but I doubt this. I mean, your embassy can issue, or not, a "replacement" passport for you, as it is its sovereign right. The police report is for the embassy, not for a custom or border agent.

Also, about Mexico: I seem to remember that Mexico does not check the passports when exiting, and they certainly don't stamp them on exit. I have no exit stamps from Mexico, and I certainly did not exit Mexico in any illegal way.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 03:46 PM by Going strong.)
08-07-2018 03:43 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:43 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Quote: "If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US": it's not a visa per se, it's more like, a visa-waiver thing. A mere Travel Authorization.

Quote: And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. You might be right, but I doubt this. I mean, your embassy can issue, or not, a "replacement" passport for you, as it is its sovereign right. The police report is for the embassy, not for a custom agent.

Yes, but then comes the problem: Even if you are issued a new passport inside the US, immigration will still be able to pull up their file and see when you entered the country (they have to, and will, since you don't have an entry stamp and hence will want to check how much time you have actually spent in the US).

All passports held (and their history) are linked together. So, they will see that there was never any entry into the US on a passport issued by the country you are trying to exit the US with. So, they will probably call the embassy to see what the problem is. The embassy will then reveal that you are an American citizen who were just granted a second passport through investment.

I am not sure what the repercussions would be, but I could imagine it could potentially be pretty bad.

And of course on top of all this, you can't get a new passport every time you plan on exiting the US to travel on your 2nd passport. The passport will have an issuance date inside it, so if it was issued say 3 years ago, then obviously you can't claim that the reason you don't have an entry stamp is because you lost your last one and just got issued a new one.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 03:53 PM by FivePoints.)
08-07-2018 03:52 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
About having passports cancelled - I don't know of any countries that issue laissez-passer (travel documents) to permanent residents abroad who have had their passports cancelled. However, many do issue them to stateless citizens already in those countries who apply for permanent residency.

It isn't something you would want to rely on, however. Travelling internationally without a passport is very difficult except maybe in the Schengen zone.

Regarding exiting the US: there is no outward passport control. Some information (PNR records) is submitted automatically by the airlines, but generally not at other kinds of borders.


(08-07-2018 03:39 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  Still, obtaining a driver's license should always be possible as long as you are an official resident in a country. I have held driver's licenses from many different countries throughout the years, all legally. None of which I have been a citizen in.
I agree with that. However, some people, many on this forum, are specifically trying not to be resident anywhere. Domiciled - likely, citizenship - yes, but there is often a desire to avoid residency if possible.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 04:04 PM by DaveR.)
08-07-2018 03:59 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:52 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 03:43 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Quote: "If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US": it's not a visa per se, it's more like, a visa-waiver thing. A mere Travel Authorization.

Quote: And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. You might be right, but I doubt this. I mean, your embassy can issue, or not, a "replacement" passport for you, as it is its sovereign right. The police report is for the embassy, not for a custom agent.

Yes, but then comes the problem: Even if you are issued a new passport inside the US, immigration will still be able to pull up their file and see when you entered the country (they have to, and will, since you don't have an entry stamp and hence will want to check how much time you have actually spent in the US).

All passports held (and their history) are linked together.

In which database? I'm not aware of such a worldwide all-encompassing database. Where is it hosted, this database, on which server? Who can access it and at what time and with what kind of frequency, from which terminals and leaving what kind of trace?
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 04:19 PM by Going strong.)
08-07-2018 04:17 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:59 PM)DaveR Wrote:  Regarding exiting the US: there is no outward passport control. Some information (PNR records) is submitted automatically by the airlines, but generally not at other kinds of borders.

That's true, I remember this now when you say it. Haven't really seen that elsewhere than in the US. However I am pretty certain that your details (like when you flew into the country) would be stored in some database and accessed by the airline upon check in. I can't know this for sure though, but if this wasn't the case, then people could potentially stay for 10 years in the States on a tourist visa, simply fly out and then fly in again. I can't imagine this being the case (but please do correct me if I am wrong).

Quote:I agree with that. However, some people, many on this forum, are specifically trying not to be resident anywhere. Domiciled - likely, citizenship - yes, but there is often a desire to avoid residency if possible.

If it is possible to obtain a driver's license without being a resident (and simply a citizen) in some countries, then that's cool. From my experience they usually look at residency first and foremost though. But perhaps not all.

But either way, there are many countries that do not care whether you are either a resident or a citizen. Like the Philippines, they will gladly issue you a driver's license even if you are just there on a tourist visa. Same with South Africa. A driver's license from any country should be fine to use worldwide since you are technically not going to be a resident anywhere. It is way easier to fly to the Philippines and get a driver's license, than to obtain a second passport. So if it is about the driver's license, a second citizenship seems unnecessary.

*********

By the way, since you brought up living overseas but not being a resident anywhere. This is what I am doing. Basically I moved out of my home country 6-7 years ago. Whenever they ask me where I live, I say I live in Thailand (which I don't). My country doesn't care where I live, as long as I don't live there.

And that's all there is to it basically. The trouble is obtaining a credit card or a bank loan anywhere, but as long as you aren't a resident anywhere, that's just a trade off you have to make for not having to pay taxes.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 04:24 PM by FivePoints.)
08-07-2018 04:24 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 04:17 PM)Going strong Wrote:  In which database? I'm not aware of such a worldwide all-encompassing database. Where is it hosted, this database, on which server? Who can access it and at what time and with what kind of frequency, from which terminals and leaving what kind of trace?

There is a worldwide database called API (Advance Passenger Information System), which shares this data among its member countries. 70 countries are members of API currently. I am guessing that within a few years, you won't be able to fly anywhere without being tracked and traced. Every country is not in API yet though. So, they have their individual databases. Every time someone enters a country, the passport and the details of the passenger will be registered in that country's database. This doesn't happen at immigration control, but through the airlines.

So, let us say you fly from the US to Brazil. Upon check in, your airline will scan your passport which will then register those details into Brazil's database over incoming foreign passengers.

When exiting Brazil, if you do not have an entry stamp, they can pull up the database using your passport number or name and see exactly what day you flew in, and with which airline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Pa...ion_System
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 04:36 PM by FivePoints.)
08-07-2018 04:30 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 04:30 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 04:17 PM)Going strong Wrote:  In which database? I'm not aware of such a worldwide all-encompassing database. Where is it hosted, this database, on which server? Who can access it and at what time and with what kind of frequency, from which terminals and leaving what kind of trace?

It is not a worldwide database. Every country has their own database. So, every time someone enters a country, the passport and the details of the passenger will be registered in that database. This doesn't happen at immigration control, but through the airlines.

So, let us say you fly from the US to Brazil. Upon check in, your airline will scan your passport which will then register those details into Brazil's database over incoming foreign passengers.

When exiting Brazil, if you do not have an entry stamp, they can pull up the database using your passport number or name and see exactly what day you flew in, and with which airline.

The passport-scanning and entering into national database (and we agree it is not an international global database, it was my point), are mostly carried out at immigration control and not by a civilian, useless, fat female airline employee.

Why would countries put so much faith into the lazy, un-vetted hands of airlines employees? It's policemen in their immigration booths who do the job.

Granted though, the airlines are providing basic passenger data in advance, or even during the flight or after, to authorities.
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2018 04:37 PM by Going strong.)
08-07-2018 04:35 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 04:35 PM)Going strong Wrote:  The passport-scanning and entering into national database (and we agree it is not an international global database, it was my point), are mostly carried out at immigration control and not by a civilian, useless, fat female airline employee.

Why would countries put so much faith into the lazy, un-vetted hands of airlines employees? It's policemen in their immigration booths who do the job.

Granted though, the airlines are providing basic passenger data in advance, or even during the flight or after, to authorities.

Well there is an international database (API). Either way, whether the country you are flying to is a member of API or not, yes the details are provided by the airline. They take your details. If you happen to fly with a fake or stolen passport, that is later up to the immigration to catch. Then you're obviously in trouble. It doesn't matter whether the airline personnel checking you in are fat or lazy, they will simply provide the details you are using to check in with.
08-07-2018 04:42 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(10-06-2017 10:43 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  There is a huge temporary development for anyone with the funds and farsightedness to obtain a citizenship by investment second passport. St. Kitts and Nevis has added a temporary Hurricane Relief Fund option for citizenship, which requires a donation of only $150,000 -- for a family of up to four.

http://stkitts-citizenship.com/

This means that you save $100,000 off the normal citizenship by investment program and something like $200,000 for a family of four (because the normal citizenship by investment program costs $250,000, plus -- I believe -- a $25,000 fee per additional family member). Additional fees will apply for due diligence and processing.

This is a limited time six-month offer, stemming from the need for emergency government funds to deal with the recent hurricane damage. This temporary program will close on March 30, 2018. If interested, there are various offshore service providers that will steer you through the process, but I recommend the Mark Nestmann Group. They are very well-established and have an excellent reputation. I am not affiliated with them in any way. I have just been around the block and I am familiar with their reputation.

John Cleese became a citizen of Nevis, perhaps to evade his horrid nightmare alimony payments, perhaps because it's just cheaper.
08-08-2018 01:08 AM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Sovereign Man just released a very interesting table (and graph) that weights the passport of each country in the world by access to the best attractions, gross national product, the access to the largest land mass, the access to largest populations, etc. It explains the process as follows:

Quote:Today, I want to discuss the quality of passports in general.

You may have seen some of these traditional passport rankings published by immigration attorneys and businesses offering related services. They typically just count each passport’s number of visa-free countries it allows to produce their ranking.

The analysis stops there.

This traditional method is flawed – it doesn’t account for the “quality” of the accessible countries.

For example, let’s imagine that passport A gives visa-free access to just two countries in the world – France and China. And passport B also provides access to only two countries – Tuvalu and Comoros.

If you assess the quality of both passports the traditional way – by counting the number of countries – then both passports equally provide visa-free access to two nations.

But clearly, the passport B holder is getting more value. I would certainly rather have visa-free access to France and China than Comoros and Tuvalu.

So, to fix this shortcoming in passport rankings, my team came up with a solution.

We assigned each country an “attractiveness” score, based on: 1) Its number of international arrivals (i.e. the world’s collective attractiveness “vote”) and 2) Its Gross Domestic Product.

In terms of “attractiveness”, the US placed first. China and France were second and third, respectively. And in case you’re wondering, Comoros placed near the bottom… and Tuvalu was dead last.

Then, using each country’s attractiveness score, we referenced each passport’s number of visa-free countries it allows. The sum for each country produced a ranking of 193 passports.

https://www.sovereignman.com/internation..._pass_rank


To access the table (and graph), click on this link:

https://www.sovereignman.com/passport-ra..._pass_rank


Using this table, I performed my own analysis of those countries with citizenship by investment programs or which are known as having citizenship programs that are easier to obtain. Those countries with the same grade are ranked according to their rank within that grade. Here is the result:

Quote:Malta A

Bulgaria B+

Cyprus B+

Grenada B

Paraguay B

Saint Kitts and Nevis B

Panama B

Antigua and Barbuda B-

Saint Lucia B-

Macedonia B-

Dominica B-

Montenegro B-

Colombia B-

Vanuatu B-

Georgia B-

Moldova B-

Russia C

Kazakhstan C-

Dominican Republic D+

Comoros D-

Cambodia D
(This post was last modified: 08-09-2018 01:45 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-09-2018 01:33 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
Did Moldova Montenegro and Georgia start theirs as far as you know?

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08-09-2018 03:43 PM
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RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-09-2018 03:43 PM)Beirut Wrote:  Did Moldova Montenegro and Georgia start theirs as far as you know?

No, I included them on the list because they are considering their own citizenship by investment programs.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-63640...pid1666886
08-09-2018 05:16 PM
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stoneybaloney Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 03:52 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 03:43 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Quote: "If you have an EU passport you must still apply for an ESTA Visa before entering the US": it's not a visa per se, it's more like, a visa-waiver thing. A mere Travel Authorization.

Quote: And even if it was, you'd have to show a police report saying why your embassy issued you a new passport while in the US. You might be right, but I doubt this. I mean, your embassy can issue, or not, a "replacement" passport for you, as it is its sovereign right. The police report is for the embassy, not for a custom agent.

Yes, but then comes the problem: Even if you are issued a new passport inside the US, immigration will still be able to pull up their file and see when you entered the country (they have to, and will, since you don't have an entry stamp and hence will want to check how much time you have actually spent in the US).

All passports held (and their history) are linked together. So, they will see that there was never any entry into the US on a passport issued by the country you are trying to exit the US with. So, they will probably call the embassy to see what the problem is. The embassy will then reveal that you are an American citizen who were just granted a second passport through investment.

I am not sure what the repercussions would be, but I could imagine it could potentially be pretty bad.

And of course on top of all this, you can't get a new passport every time you plan on exiting the US to travel on your 2nd passport. The passport will have an issuance date inside it, so if it was issued say 3 years ago, then obviously you can't claim that the reason you don't have an entry stamp is because you lost your last one and just got issued a new one.

The solution seems fairly obvious to me. When you exit the USA, show your foreign passport to the US authorities. (I've traveled abroad several times and don't recall ever being asked to show a passport when *leaving* the United States, but let's say this happens for the sake of argument.)

Then while you're on the plane, pack the foreign passport away somewhere in the luggage. Show your USA passport to the EU authorities when you land.

Problem solved. I don't know why you guys are taking it as given that you would show the same passport on both ends of the journey.
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2018 11:24 PM by stoneybaloney.)
08-10-2018 11:23 PM
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DaveR Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-10-2018 11:23 PM)stoneybaloney Wrote:  The solution seems fairly obvious to me. When you exit the USA, show your foreign passport to the US authorities. (I've traveled abroad several times and don't recall ever being asked to show a passport when *leaving* the United States, but let's say this happens for the sake of argument.)

Then while you're on the plane, pack the foreign passport away somewhere in the luggage. Show your USA passport to the EU authorities when you land.

Problem solved. I don't know why you guys are taking it as given that you would show the same passport on both ends of the journey.

If your US passport is cancelled, other countries will know about it. Interpol maintains a database of stolen, lost and cancelled passports.
08-11-2018 07:34 AM
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Going strong Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-11-2018 07:34 AM)DaveR Wrote:  
(08-10-2018 11:23 PM)stoneybaloney Wrote:  The solution seems fairly obvious to me. When you exit the USA, show your foreign passport to the US authorities. (I've traveled abroad several times and don't recall ever being asked to show a passport when *leaving* the United States, but let's say this happens for the sake of argument.)

Then while you're on the plane, pack the foreign passport away somewhere in the luggage. Show your USA passport to the EU authorities when you land.

Problem solved. I don't know why you guys are taking it as given that you would show the same passport on both ends of the journey.

If your US passport is cancelled, other countries will know about it. Interpol maintains a database of stolen, lost and cancelled passports.

But immigration (police) officers at some destination airport, are not likely to ask Interpol about any random passenger. So "other countries would know", sure, but only if they take the time and pain to ask and query.
08-11-2018 07:41 AM
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DaveR Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-11-2018 07:41 AM)Going strong Wrote:  
(08-11-2018 07:34 AM)DaveR Wrote:  
(08-10-2018 11:23 PM)stoneybaloney Wrote:  The solution seems fairly obvious to me. When you exit the USA, show your foreign passport to the US authorities. (I've traveled abroad several times and don't recall ever being asked to show a passport when *leaving* the United States, but let's say this happens for the sake of argument.)

Then while you're on the plane, pack the foreign passport away somewhere in the luggage. Show your USA passport to the EU authorities when you land.

Problem solved. I don't know why you guys are taking it as given that you would show the same passport on both ends of the journey.

If your US passport is cancelled, other countries will know about it. Interpol maintains a database of stolen, lost and cancelled passports.

But immigration (police) officers at some destination airport, are not likely to ask Interpol about any random passenger. So "other countries would know", sure, but only if they take the time and pain to ask and query.

But it's all automatic - it isn't an online database. Interpol publishes a daily file containing cancelled numbers. National border guards download those files into their own systems each day, and the system checks the list of cancelled numbers each time an officer scans the machine-readable zone.
08-11-2018 08:27 AM
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Post: #99
Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-07-2018 01:56 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  If you try to exit the US on a foreign passport, they are going to ask you where is your Visa is. What are you going to say then? That you are an American citizen? Then they'll ask for your social security number or US passport, and they'll see that you are banned from travelling.

You make many assumptions about things about which you have no knowledge. All you need to do is make it to the Mexican border. No one checks your ID traveling from the U.S. to Mexico (often times, not even the Mexicans), only on the way back. Then you fly from Mexico to wherever you wish.

https://www.quora.com/When-crossing-the-...who-enters

This is no longer totally true. 100% check of everyone coming in by foot with passport data entered. By car it is mostly true unless you are checked and sent to secondary randomly. It’s only a matter of time I’m sure before all passports by car are checked. Only a few years ago it was 2 dudes with M16s and a turnstile walking in.
08-11-2018 10:11 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Obtain Second Citizenship: Comprehensive Review of Citizenship by Investment Programs
(08-11-2018 10:11 AM)WashedUPVet Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 01:56 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(08-07-2018 12:34 PM)FivePoints Wrote:  If you try to exit the US on a foreign passport, they are going to ask you where is your Visa is. What are you going to say then? That you are an American citizen? Then they'll ask for your social security number or US passport, and they'll see that you are banned from travelling.

You make many assumptions about things about which you have no knowledge. All you need to do is make it to the Mexican border. No one checks your ID traveling from the U.S. to Mexico (often times, not even the Mexicans), only on the way back. Then you fly from Mexico to wherever you wish.

https://www.quora.com/When-crossing-the-...who-enters

This is no longer totally true. 100% check of everyone coming in by foot with passport data entered. By car it is mostly true unless you are checked and sent to secondary randomly. It’s only a matter of time I’m sure before all passports by car are checked. Only a few years ago it was 2 dudes with M16s and a turnstile walking in.

Are you talking about a check by the U.S. authorities or the Mexican authorities? My point was that if you are an American leaving the U.S. using only your second (non-American) passport (because your U.S. passport was revoked for some reason), the U.S. authorities typically do not check the passports of people entering Mexico. Your statement was unclear as to its meaning. If you were referring to the Mexican authorities, then that is irrelevant to my point (because they do not care what passport you use to enter Mexico -- as long as it is legitimate).
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2018 10:31 AM by Tail Gunner.)
08-11-2018 10:28 AM
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