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Long, hard, or both?
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bucky Offline
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Long, hard, or both?
Over the last few years I've seen a trend in fitness and weight training toward shorter, more intense workouts. For example, a year or two ago I worked with a guy in his forties with a massive, bodybuilder-like build who claimed his average gym session lasted about 25 minutes.

Here are two YouTube fitness personalities I follow. First is AthleanX, who likes to say that you can lift hard or you can lift long, but not both. He basically follows what seems to be the current wisdom and recommends no more than 30 to 40 minutes per workout. Second is Vince Del Monte, who says the exact opposite, that you're never going to get to his level without spending hours working on your body most days. No idea which is right, but if could get anywhere near like 80% of either guy's level of development I would be pretty damn happy with myself.

What do you all think? Long? Hard? Both? They're both on gear so it doesn't matter unless I choose to go that route? Asking here because I highly value the opinion of shitlords and misogynists on many matters, fitness included.

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09-29-2017 09:21 AM
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heavy Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
Like in other areas of life, I follow the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule), which you sort of referenced. It works for me, though I have a mesomorph athletic build, so that helps.

Even if you have "bad" physiological genetics, I believe the rule still applies, at least to some extent.

80% of the gains is produced by 20% of the effort.

I used to lift 4-5 days a week. I looked *maybe* 20% better than I do now, lifting around 45 minutes 1-2 days a week (between BJJ).

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09-29-2017 09:42 AM
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
Why not both?

I did a long workout for 3 months, then short intense one for another 3 months and now I'm doing medium. Honestly, working out is more fun and exciting for me than anything. I love the gains and the attention, but I mostly like learning about how my body reacts to new stimulus. Don't get married to one training style. That's a quick road to hating training and losing your love for it.

The other thing to remember is that all of this shit is marketing. All the fitness pundits are trying to sell you the "NEW HOTTEST ROUTINE" and it often isn't based on research or anything. Go with what works for you. most guys don't need to do insanely long or short, intense workouts. Try them all and see how your body reacts to it. I respond best to medium volume and a little bit of cardio thrown in. Some guys respond to straight up 100% strength training. other guys need a combination of all sorts of things.

That's the fun of training, though: experimenting with different training protocols and seeing what happens.

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09-29-2017 09:47 AM
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
I do long (1-1.5 hour) and intense sessions with relatively low number of total sets (under 12). I like to take a decent amount of time to warm up and I catch my breath before the next set.

For instance I'll hit my legs with 3 sets of squats and a rest pause set of 50 on leg extensions, then 6 sets of calf raises. And that's the entire workout. Some guys might do a lot more but I do what works for me.

There's no right or wrong way, it's all about what appeals to you and what you're willing to work hard at.
09-29-2017 10:30 AM
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realologist Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
You speak my language. Long and hard. Mmm....

Oh talking about working out.

Experiment and do whatever works for you. I usually take around 1 hour. With 15-20 being just the initial warm up. Then the rest is very hard. Then there are some days I take light.
09-29-2017 11:24 AM
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YoungBlade
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
Work out as long as you need to get the required stimulus to promote growth or achieve whatever goals you are aiming for. Simple as that.

If you are trying to grow I don't see how you can achieve large gains on your body in a 30 minute workout unless maybe you are a veteran lifter and are only going to the gym to hit 1 or 2 heavy working sets then go home.

Me personally I'm never there for less than an hour. Average workout time for me is 1.5-2 hours. I do warm up sets working up to 3-5 working sets and I do 2-3 compound lifts everytime I'm at the gym, plus 2-4 accessory/isolation movements.
09-29-2017 12:35 PM
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Remington Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
My workouts usually consist between 1 hour to 1 hour 30 minutes.

If you are not pushing yourself to your limit every time, you are wasting time at the gym. You should be drained every time you leave.

If you're not wiped out after your workouts, go harder the next time.

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09-29-2017 02:06 PM
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H1N1 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Long, hard, or both?
I like to use this approach to structure a workout:

Main lift
Antagonist lift
core variation

Support lift
Antagonist support lift
core variation

Conditioning


Then each workout I switch between heavy, medium, and light work across the three groupings. So day one my main giant set is heavy, my accessory moderate, my conditioning light. Day two my main lifts are moderate, my accessory light, and my conditioning heavy, and so on.

You can't push hard on everything all the time, particularly if you are natural and have a life with plenty of other stressors in it. I find this approach, training 4 days/week, keeps me fresh and meets my goals.
09-29-2017 06:01 PM
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bucky Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
"If you're not wiped out after your workouts, go harder the next time."

That's the thing. I'm doing very short workouts now, no more than 25 minutes, but I have nothing left after that 25. For example I did a 24 minute chest workout today and I'd like to throw in a few sets of Hindu push-ups to bring it up to about 30 minutes next time but I doubt I could do more than a few reps with decent form at that point, at least not without resting for several minutes first. "You can train hard or you can train long, but you can't do both" as AthleanX says." Seems to me that if you are working out for 90 minutes you're either resting a lot more than me during your workouts, not lifting to failure on every exercise, or maybe you're just a beast with rare genetic gifts.

That said, I am thinking about adding five or ten minutes of jump rope at the end of my workouts once in a while to get in some HIIT and hopefully burn some more fat, although some would say I shouldn't be mixing weights and cardio.

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(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017 06:59 PM by bucky.)
09-29-2017 06:56 PM
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bucky Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
How long do those workouts take you on average? Can you post a specific examples of one of your workouts? I mean, with each specific exercise.

I'm on doctor's orders to avoid heavy weights right now so I'm doing lighter weights, higher reps, and I do many exercises with a very slow tempo, which I find really increases the burn. Feels a bit like I've been swimming when I finish a workout with a lot of slow, deliberate reps like that.

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09-29-2017 07:02 PM
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Cobra Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
By the title, I thought a dick thread. Gay

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09-29-2017 07:03 PM
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pheonix500000 Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-29-2017 06:56 PM)bucky Wrote:  "If you're not wiped out after your workouts, go harder the next time."

That's the thing. I'm doing very short workouts now, no more than 25 minutes, but I have nothing left after that 25. For example I did a 24 minute chest workout today and I'd like to throw in a few sets of Hindu push-ups to bring it up to about 30 minutes next time but I doubt I could do more than a few reps with decent form at that point, at least not without resting for several minutes first. "You can train hard or you can train long, but you can't do both" as AthleanX says." Seems to me that if you are working out for 90 minutes you're either resting a lot more than me during your workouts, not lifting to failure on every exercise, or maybe you're just a beast with rare genetic gifts.

That said, I am thinking about adding five or ten minutes of jump rope at the end of my workouts once in a while to get in some HIIT and hopefully burn some more fat, although some would say I shouldn't be mixing weights and cardio.

This should help you out.




09-29-2017 09:59 PM
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Rush87 Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
It's takes years in the game to begin to understand your body, it's recovery and it's capabilities. There is no 'right'. There's just what is 'right' for you.

For me personally, I'm an ectomorph, with poor nutrient partitioning [leading to skinny fat], and terrible recovery. For years I battled away with a low carb, low rep, high intensity program which led to minimal gains in both strength and body composition as well as sending my cortisol through the roof.

As I got older, I switched it up. I now train in the 10-12 rep range. High sets volume. 1 hour plus in the gym. Daily. On top of this, I start my mornings 'greasing the wheel' so to speak with 15-30 Chin-ups.

You'd think this was overtraining, but for my body type it works. The intensity is low enough to reduce doms, reduce CNS stress, but frequent enough to boost nutrient partitioning. I can now eat carbs without losing shape and I'm a lean 209 as a result.

That said my training buddy is the complete opposite. My program would puff him up and make him appear soft. Instead, he runs a diet that's virtually keto. Lifts only 4x per week, high intensity, 25min max, and is a similar build to me.

The TLDR is: Know you body and then build a program around that. There'll always be someone online who shares your body type, who you can follow. Don't make your decision based on 'who looks the best'. What works for him, won't neccesarily work for you.
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017 10:40 PM by Rush87.)
09-29-2017 10:35 PM
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bucky
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
Honestly, I think the "wiping yourself out" thing is not sustainable in the long run. I can do that for a few weeks, then I just find myself too tired to function. That shit is only sustainable if you don't have a family, job and other obligations and you can afford to sleep all day.

I tend to follow a "stimulate not annihilate" motto when I train. I want to be able to train into my 40s and beyond. Obliterating myself 5 days a week is going to put an early cap on my lifting career. That's why all the greatest bodybuilders eventually retire. You cannot sustainably work your body and your endocrine system to its limits without eventually having to pay for it down the line.

The funny thing is that my latest workout scheme has no more than 15 sets in total and I'm already growing 2 weeks in.

A lot of this "OMG GO HARD OR GO HOME" stuff is marketing. Do not let marketers dictate how you train. A few years ago it was all about "Intensity," before that it was all about "tempo" and so on and so forth. Look at who is giving you this advice. Why are they telling you to go so hard?

They have a protein, preworkout and test booster combo they want to sell you so you can get maximum gainz from their uber intense ball-crusher workout with 15 sets for biceps alone!

The thing about training is it is more than just how you train. Even if you spend 2 hours in the gym, that's like 1/12 of your entire day. A lot of your growth comes from your food choices and your sleep.

My current routine is 1 hour of weights, 5 minutes of stretching and 30 minutes of cardio 5 days a week. I know some guys are probably saying "BUT BUT BUT that doesn't sound savage enough" but whatever. At the end of the day if your calipers and measuring tape are being used you'll quickly find out what works and what doesn't.

I recently committed to a minimum of 8 hours a night and I already can see the difference in my body and face.

I train savagely hard for spurts of time, but you gotta regulate your intensity from time to time to allow body and CNS time to heal.

Of course, this is coming from a guy who is naturally bird-boned and not exactly meant to be huge. I recently cracked 167 pounds at 5'8 so I'm probably not the guy you want to listen to when it comes to being a true mass monster.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
09-29-2017 10:44 PM
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monster Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-29-2017 09:21 AM)bucky Wrote:  Over the last few years I've seen a trend in fitness and weight training toward shorter, more intense workouts. For example, a year or two ago I worked with a guy in his forties with a massive, bodybuilder-like build who claimed his average gym session lasted about 25 minutes.

This "trend" is a result of two things: 1) people getting older, and 2) people having been exercising a long time and pretty happy with their in-shapeness.

As you get older you have other priorities than going to the gym. It ain't like college no more when you can spend 3 hours a day in the gym because you have stuff to do and you have longer recovery periods.

If you've been exercising correctly for years you're going to be in pretty good shape and either just need maintenance workouts and diet tweaks to get to where you wanna go.

But if you're young and if you're outta shape you're gonna have to put in the time. None of this 25 minute workout crap in this case.

And same if you're a pro or amateur athlete. Your workout is gonna last hours and hours per day. But for the aging regular person, yeah, shorter workouts are in vogue when you're already had lots of progress.

The shitty thing about growing old is you have to warmup and stretch or you find yourself injured in a bad way. This eats 20 minutes of your workout every single workout. I wish the days I could roll in the gym and go right into the heavy sets without any stretching or jogging hahaha. I typically don't count the 20 min warmup as part of my "workout time"
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2017 11:33 PM by monster.)
09-29-2017 11:27 PM
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-29-2017 09:59 PM)pheonix500000 Wrote:  
(09-29-2017 06:56 PM)bucky Wrote:  "If you're not wiped out after your workouts, go harder the next time."

That's the thing. I'm doing very short workouts now, no more than 25 minutes, but I have nothing left after that 25. For example I did a 24 minute chest workout today and I'd like to throw in a few sets of Hindu push-ups to bring it up to about 30 minutes next time but I doubt I could do more than a few reps with decent form at that point, at least not without resting for several minutes first. "You can train hard or you can train long, but you can't do both" as AthleanX says." Seems to me that if you are working out for 90 minutes you're either resting a lot more than me during your workouts, not lifting to failure on every exercise, or maybe you're just a beast with rare genetic gifts.

That said, I am thinking about adding five or ten minutes of jump rope at the end of my workouts once in a while to get in some HIIT and hopefully burn some more fat, although some would say I shouldn't be mixing weights and cardio.

This should help you out.





I didn't mean for this to devolve into a pissing contest. Note, I never said that I'm not finishing my workouts. I said they are short and intense and I'm completely wiped out when I finish them. When I show up at the gym I see people who are still there when I leave. Some look like they don't know what they're doing and socialize a lot. Even the ones who do look like they have a clue rest much longer between sets and exercises than I do.

Didn't have time to watch the whole video, but I saw the first part which I would paraphrase as "I'm an alpha superman and I do a bajillion sets per workout and it takes me forever, unlike you, you pussy" That's great, but does he talk about rest time and whether he's lifting to failure on each exercise?

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09-30-2017 12:17 AM
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bucky Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-29-2017 10:44 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Of course, this is coming from a guy who is naturally bird-boned and not exactly meant to be huge. I recently cracked 167 pounds at 5'8 so I'm probably not the guy you want to listen to when it comes to being a true mass monster.

I appreciate your thoughts. You're right, probably best to see to try different stuff and see what works for me. I'm a hard gainer too, tall and lean. My ideal body would probably something like Brad Pitt in Fight Club. Not looking to become the white Ronnie Coleman or anything like that.

Incidentally, after coming off a recent back injury (muscle spasm) I'm basing my current workouts on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJKM8-878xY&t=28s

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2017 12:36 AM by bucky.)
09-30-2017 12:32 AM
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Suits Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
I thought this thread was going to be about penis size.
09-30-2017 01:12 AM
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bucky Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-30-2017 01:12 AM)Suits Wrote:  I thought this thread was going to be about penis size.

In a way it is for some of the commenters, indirectly. Heh. Yeah though, I probably should have called it "Long workouts, hard workouts, or both?" in retrospect.

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09-30-2017 10:15 AM
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Remington Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(09-29-2017 10:44 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Honestly, I think the "wiping yourself out" thing is not sustainable in the long run. I can do that for a few weeks, then I just find myself too tired to function. That shit is only sustainable if you don't have a family, job and other obligations and you can afford to sleep all day.

I disagree. After the years of lifting, I have trained very hard and been pretty good about my diet.

After every 8-12 weeks, I take a week off for recovery or if I begin to plateau. I also mix up the weight and sets every other week for each exercise.

I'm physically drained after each workout.

Of course, everyone's body is different. I've just found a strategy that works for myself.

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10-03-2017 07:51 AM
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bucky Offline
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
Although my workouts are very short, I would describe them as devastating, at least to my almost 50-year-old body. I take five days or so off every two months but no more because at my age I feel like I have to push to my limit or pretty near to keep excess body fat off, body fat level being in my opinion the most important factor in aesthetics and pretty close to most important in health. I just hope I can sustain this as I move into late middle age and beyond.

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10-03-2017 10:17 AM
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Fortis Away
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(10-03-2017 07:51 AM)Remington Wrote:  
(09-29-2017 10:44 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Honestly, I think the "wiping yourself out" thing is not sustainable in the long run. I can do that for a few weeks, then I just find myself too tired to function. That shit is only sustainable if you don't have a family, job and other obligations and you can afford to sleep all day.

I disagree. After the years of lifting, I have trained very hard and been pretty good about my diet.

After every 8-12 weeks, I take a week off for recovery or if I begin to plateau. I also mix up the weight and sets every other week for each exercise.

I'm physically drained after each workout.

Of course, everyone's body is different. I've just found a strategy that works for myself.

Fair enough. I suspect this is also a lifestyle thing, too.

I like to do most of my personal work late at night, so I don't like being depleted when I get home.

I like doing split style 5-day routines. I tend to reserve all out days for legs and back (usually Saturday and Sunday). Everything else I'm very careful about since I tend to get burnt out and fatigued easily if I go too hard for too long. I do occasionally get revved up and go 10 days without a break, but that's only for those times when I'm dialed in.

Everyone is different.

I can go all out 5-6 weeks, 5 days a week, maybe longer if I have everything 100% dialed in, but I lean more towards moderate intensity as a rule.

Like I said, though, I'm a bit more delicate than average, it seems.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
10-03-2017 10:57 AM
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(10-03-2017 10:57 AM)Fortis Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 07:51 AM)Remington Wrote:  
(09-29-2017 10:44 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Honestly, I think the "wiping yourself out" thing is not sustainable in the long run. I can do that for a few weeks, then I just find myself too tired to function. That shit is only sustainable if you don't have a family, job and other obligations and you can afford to sleep all day.

I disagree. After the years of lifting, I have trained very hard and been pretty good about my diet.

After every 8-12 weeks, I take a week off for recovery or if I begin to plateau. I also mix up the weight and sets every other week for each exercise.

I'm physically drained after each workout.

Of course, everyone's body is different. I've just found a strategy that works for myself.

Fair enough. I suspect this is also a lifestyle thing, too.

I like to do most of my personal work late at night, so I don't like being depleted when I get home.

I like doing split style 5-day routines. I tend to reserve all out days for legs and back (usually Saturday and Sunday). Everything else I'm very careful about since I tend to get burnt out and fatigued easily if I go too hard for too long. I do occasionally get revved up and go 10 days without a break, but that's only for those times when I'm dialed in.

Everyone is different.

I can go all out 5-6 weeks, 5 days a week, maybe longer if I have everything 100% dialed in, but I lean more towards moderate intensity as a rule.

Like I said, though, I'm a bit more delicate than average, it seems.

Sounds good to me. You're making progress and gaining muscle which is all that matters.

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10-03-2017 12:46 PM
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ballsyamog Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Long, hard, or both?
Fortis, what's your body fat%

I'm 5'8 177lbs 13% bf.... I vary my workouts, going from 1.5hrs for several weeks then change it up to 30-45 minutes. Everybody is different and you just gotta do what works for you
10-03-2017 01:17 PM
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RE: Long, hard, or both?
(10-03-2017 01:17 PM)ballsyamog Wrote:  Fortis, what's your body fat%

I'm 5'8 177lbs 13% bf.... I vary my workouts, going from 1.5hrs for several weeks then change it up to 30-45 minutes. Everybody is different and you just gotta do what works for you

somewhere between 12%-14%

My current routine is working out. Gainz are steady and energy is high. I just came off of a very high-intensity cycle and now doing more maintenance work as I get ready to up intensity progressively.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
10-03-2017 01:22 PM
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