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Catalans declare independence from Spain
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azulsombra Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 05:24 PM)Icarus Wrote:  Barcelona is an extremely popular Erasmus destination, for obvious reasons.

If this crisis continues, will the EU even fund Erasmus students in Barcelona during the Spring semester?

How can one profit from that? Where will the BCN-bound Erasmus chicks go to?

My guess is Valencia or Malaga.
Both are coastal, warm and large enough to absorb those Erasmus students.

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10-28-2017 05:18 AM
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Post: #102
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:09 AM)britchard Wrote:  To add to this, people saying that the Catalan language is dying are either just lying, or just spouting their 'facts' based off the fact that elsewhere in the world, regional languages are dying.

Castellano is gaining ground in Valencia. That is a fact. What about Mallorca and Ibiza?

Number of native Castellano speakers: 400 million.

Number of native Catalan speakers: 5 million, perhaps?

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10-28-2017 05:29 AM
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Post: #103
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Question with no intent :
Do you think that Valencian is dying out, Icarus?
Even in the capital, I get to hear it often (at least outside Ruzafa and the Zentrum) and it is required for any bureaucratic job (teaching included) in the city or for studying full time in the university (as opposed to masters or Erasmus exchanges).
In the villages and smaller towns extending all the way to the Alicante area I heard it even amongst adults (mid and late 30's and 40's) and children, and not just from the old timers. Some people told me that for many years the case was such as you described it with people in the capital treating the language as "patois".
I would say that amongst urban people of my age group (mid 20's to early 30's) it is used more reluctantly...

The impression I get is that the Valencians are just as proud as any other cultural group but they come off as less imposing or hostile as some Catalonian entities.
Then again I am basing myself on purely empirical and loose data and I of course have no properly studied sample size to present and argument but I'm genuinely interested in knowing your opinion about it.

We move between light and shadow, mutually influencing and being influenced through shades of gray...
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 05:32 AM by Elster.)
10-28-2017 05:30 AM
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Post: #104
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:18 AM)azulsombra Wrote:  My guess is Valencia or Malaga. Both are coastal, warm and large enough to absorb those Erasmus students.

Valencia, Murcia and Andalusia would be my guesses, too.

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10-28-2017 05:32 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:30 AM)Elster Wrote:  Do you think that Valencian is dying out, Icarus?

Over time, the Valencian language can become increasingly contaminated with Castellano (the ugliest Iberian language, IMHO). This is not extinction per se, it's simply continuous deformation. Deformation is inevitable, but slowing the process down a bit would be desirable for conservationist purposes.

(10-28-2017 05:30 AM)Elster Wrote:  The impression I get is that the Valencians are just as proud as any other cultural group but they come off as less imposing or hostile as some Catalonian entities.

That is my experience, too.

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10-28-2017 05:43 AM
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Post: #106
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:43 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-28-2017 05:30 AM)Elster Wrote:  Do you think that Valencian is dying out, Icarus?

Over time, the Valencian language can become increasingly contaminated with Castellano (the ugliest Iberian language, IMHO). This is not extinction per se, it's simply continuous deformation. Deformation is inevitable, but slowing the process down a bit would be desirable for conservationist purposes.

(10-28-2017 05:30 AM)Elster Wrote:  The impression I get is that the Valencians are just as proud as any other cultural group but they come off as less imposing or hostile as some Catalonian entities.

That is my experience, too.

I have spent many years in Valencia and my general impression was that the average Valencian is extremely proud of his/her heritage but they are most definitely not fanatical about it. I'm sure there are a some exceptions on the left spectrum but I'm talking about the average Valencian you'll meet on the street. They are happy to converse in Spanish and very rarely did I hear them use Valencian in public, it's mostly spoken at home.

FYI two weeks ago there were massive demonstrations in VLC in support of Spanish unity and against Catalonian independence. We are talking about tens of thousands of people facing maybe 100 pro-independence supporters (most of them frikis and perroflautas).

I've only been in Barcelona three times and quite frankly couldn't stand the people there. The harshness and lack of femininity of what they call women over there really shocked me, especially in comparison with the rest of Spain. The lady who I was renting my piso from was relatively friendly but one of the first questions she asked me was why in the world I would be spending most of my time in Valencia when I could instead be in BCN. Nobody ever said anything of that sort to me anywhere else in Spain. Although regional pride is firmly established across the peninsula you don't sense outright hostility against other regions. Sure they'll trash talk them a little bit but it's usually in good humor.

My take away impression when leaving Catalonia was that most of the people there act like assholes and that I was only welcome as long as I was spending money. What also got to me was the cultural fanaticism of the Catalans who many times refused to speak either English or Spanish, although I clearly was a 'guiri' on vacation. And I'm a pretty jovial guy and cultural chameleon who gets on with pretty much anyone. I have rarely felt such a bad vibe from a particular group of people and I've been all over the planet over the course of my life.

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10-28-2017 06:37 AM
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Post: #107
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:30 AM)Elster Wrote:  Do you think that Valencian is dying out, Icarus?
Even in the capital, I get to hear it often (at least outside Ruzafa and the Zentrum) and it is required for any bureaucratic job (teaching included) in the city or for studying full time in the university (as opposed to masters or Erasmus exchanges).
In the villages and smaller towns extending all the way to the Alicante area I heard it even amongst adults (mid and late 30's and 40's) and children, and not just from the old timers. Some people told me that for many years the case was such as you described it with people in the capital treating the language as "patois".
I would say that amongst urban people of my age group (mid 20's to early 30's) it is used more reluctantly...

The impression I get is that the Valencians are just as proud as any other cultural group but they come off as less imposing or hostile as some Catalonian entities.
Then again I am basing myself on purely empirical and loose data and I of course have no properly studied sample size to present and argument but I'm genuinely interested in knowing your opinion about it.

Absolutely not, they all speak it but they are simply not fanatic about it. Remember that most of the local governance is done in Valencian, even public announcements are either in Valencian with Spanish translations.

Which IMO is a healthy approach to maintaining your cultural heritage whilst also recognizing the larger cultural context, i.e. being an integral part of the Iberian peninsula now dominated by Spain.

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10-28-2017 06:44 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 06:44 AM)redpillage Wrote:  Which IMO is a healthy approach to maintaining your cultural heritage whilst also recognizing the larger cultural context, i.e. being an integral part of the Iberian peninsula now dominated by Spain.

The "dominated" part is the problem. An animated map:

[Image: cvHXXzQ.gif]

If Catalan secessionists weren't so fanatic, they could have proposed a confederation. Switzerland has 4 languages. Why can't Spain follow Switzerland's example?

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(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 06:57 AM by Icarus.)
10-28-2017 06:56 AM
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DChambers Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Catalonia has a right to declare independence. Spain has a right to deny them this. The end result will be determined by either law or force of arms. Much like our own Civil War, the final arbiter in these cases if no one side will back down is the law or war and the ruling of the sword. Irregardless of the percieved righteousness of any one side, the victor's laws will be held up by the points of their bayonets.

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10-28-2017 07:21 AM
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Bienvenuto Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
People talking about the reasons for Spain holding onto Catalonia from economic or cultural viewpoints.
Whilst there is truth in that I think that this story from the Chinese annals (abridged because I am lazy) explains any rulers perspective..

There was a Chinese ruler who shocked his people and advisors by giving first his prize stallion then his daughter to his hostile neighbor in order to improve relations and lull their neighbor into a false sense of security. When that neighbor asked for a disputed piece of territory that the kingdom was not making much use of all the advisors (sensing the way the wind was blowing) said sure let them have it.

The ruler then admonished them:
“Horses and women can be sacrificed for peace, but land is the foundation of the state! he declared. He immediately ordered the execution of all the officials who had advised the land be given away. "

No ruler in their right mind gives away any part of their state.
10-28-2017 07:22 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 07:22 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  No ruler in their right mind gives away any part of their state.

There are exceptions. The Soviet Union willingly retreated from East Germany, Poland, the Baltic States, the Caucasus and Central Asia.

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(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 07:43 AM by Icarus.)
10-28-2017 07:43 AM
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Post: #112
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Above post. They were behind the Iron Curtain. If you are talking about after the quagmire of the 1990s then that is hardly a good representation of the Soviet Union at it's height. A country might abandon territory for defense means at times, but land is the actual foundation of wealth. It is given away only as a last result and in times of great stress.

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10-28-2017 08:06 AM
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Post: #113
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
It wouldn`t surprise me if the Catalans end up losing all their independence.
A temporary Government solution tends to become a permanent one.

We will stomp to the top with the wind in our teeth.

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10-28-2017 08:07 AM
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Post: #114
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 05:09 AM)britchard Wrote:  It's actually laughable that the main defence of Spain keeping Catalunya according to some of the posters here is that 'Catalonia is full of SJWs'. So? Every region/'country' has the right to self-determination, and you're as bad as the EU if you say otherwise.

As long as you know that the term "right to self-determination" is straight from the Versailles Treaty as warranted by Woodrow Wilson who came from a government which denied its own states the right to invoke the Articles of Confederation.

This term has proven itself to be a trail of gunpowder in the past as it provides no logical limit to which identifiable group and territory that can declare itself independent. It also has proven itself unable to provide a remedy for loyalists who suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the new fence.
10-28-2017 08:26 AM
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Post: #115
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 04:56 PM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 04:51 PM)Volk Wrote:  Than why the hell would they secede from Spain just for, according to their project, join up in the same area with a different project?

Why did the County of Portugal secede from the Kingdom of Leon in 1128 if it would still be under the Pope's rule?

I believe it was the son of the queen (or countess) of Leon who waged war against his mother in order to create his own kingdom - the kingdom of Portugal.
10-28-2017 08:27 AM
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Post: #116
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 08:27 AM)Lime Wrote:  I believe it was the son of the queen (or countess) of Leon who waged war against his mother in order to create his own kingdom - the kingdom of Portugal.

Indeed. And now Portuguese has 220 million native speakers, whereas Galician has almost 100x times less.

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10-28-2017 08:41 AM
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Post: #117
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
There are no "rights" to self determination. That old Versailles treaty has wrouth enough wrong to be discarded. To the victor belongs the spolis. Wars for independence are hedgy bets ah but what if you win?

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10-28-2017 08:54 AM
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Post: #118
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 08:41 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-28-2017 08:27 AM)Lime Wrote:  I believe it was the son of the queen (or countess) of Leon who waged war against his mother in order to create his own kingdom - the kingdom of Portugal.

Indeed. And now Portuguese has 220 million native speakers, whereas Galician has almost 100x times less.

For such a highly rated member you sure seem to be baiting a lot. What's your point mate and how is it directly related to this thread? Remember the topic was Catalonia and its desire for independence? Just saying...

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10-28-2017 09:02 AM
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Post: #119
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 06:56 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-28-2017 06:44 AM)redpillage Wrote:  Which IMO is a healthy approach to maintaining your cultural heritage whilst also recognizing the larger cultural context, i.e. being an integral part of the Iberian peninsula now dominated by Spain.

The "dominated" part is the problem. An animated map:

[Image: cvHXXzQ.gif]

If Catalan secessionists weren't so fanatic, they could have proposed a confederation. Switzerland has 4 languages. Why can't Spain follow Switzerland's example?

I corrected your choice of bold selection. Makes a lot more sense now and offers a clear hint regarding my overall point. It's part of Spain now and various territorial disputes e.g. across Andalusia could be wrought by Muslims as well. Which is what the long term plan is by the way, and if Spain yields to Catalonia's claims then it will quickly turn itself into a major gateway for increased Islamic invasion. We already have fucking Germany to put up with, the last thing Europe needs is another borderline Marxist region to push the globalist envelope.

Your knowledge of history is impressive but I think you're somehow not seeing the forest for the trees, or perhaps you just enjoy the debate too much ;-)

Might is right and by your logic almost every single nation on earth could be separated into multiple autonomous regions. I frankly don't care what happened several hundred years ago, what matters is the here and now and what is in your immediate interest. And what is most definitely not in our interest is a sovereign region thriving towards a Marxist/feminist ideology.

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10-28-2017 09:15 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #120
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 09:15 AM)redpillage Wrote:  It's part of Spain now

Yet, no one even proposes changing Spain instead of seceding from it. Why does it have to be either submission to Madrid or independence? There should be other options on the menu.

It looks as though you have not yet gotten the point. The Portuguese, the Galicians, the Asturians, the Cantabrians, the Leonese, the Castillians, the Navarrans, the Aragonese, the Catalans, the Valencians... they all considered themselves Spanish centuries ago. That is because Spain was a geographic term (a synonym for "Iberian Peninsula"), not a political one. After Castilla & Aragon conquered Granada and Navarra, no one knew what to call the new political entity, so they stole Hispania from the Romans. The term could be de-politicized (though not quickly). Form a confederation where each region has its own army. The navy and the air force belong to the confederation, however. Why is this option not even on the menu? Because both sides are driven by lunatics.

Modern Spain is not an old idea, it's only a few decades older than the United States.

(10-28-2017 09:15 AM)redpillage Wrote:  And what is most definitely not in our interest is a sovereign region thriving towards a Marxist/feminist ideology.

Marxists and feminists are not very good at procreating. The hardcore Opus Dei fanatics with 7+ kids will simply outbreed them sooner or later. The SJWs may be loud, but they are also Darwinian failures. Why focus so much on losers? Focus on the future winners instead.

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(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 09:48 AM by Icarus.)
10-28-2017 09:40 AM
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Post: #121
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 09:40 AM)Icarus Wrote:  That is because Spain was a geographic term (a synonym for "Iberian Peninsula"), not a political one.

There is no difference Icarus, geography is meaningless unless you draw a border around it and call it yours (and are willing to defend it). I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Plus this debate is futile as nobody cares about the opinion of outsiders and Spain will most certainly assert itself here.

Catalonia will not be permitted to secede, if need be it will be placed under military law. The implications for Spain as a whole of course are serious and there will be long term consequences, perhaps even devolving into domestic terrorism (they do happen to have a lot of Muslim migrants, as a side note). A century ago the instigators would simply be killed and everyone else booted into submission. This day and age this would of course create a shitload of bad PR and what I expect is a long drawn out resistance movement coming out of Catalonia.

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10-28-2017 10:35 AM
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Post: #122
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
It is a bit dissapointing to see what the analysis of anglosphere pundits in the alt web has been about this situation, an astounding cultural gap is very present in most of them: assange tweeting like an excited high school girl, tim poole running around referendum day in Barna like a beduin on a cloudy night in a forest, Styx gloating plain bollocks.etc

We move between light and shadow, mutually influencing and being influenced through shades of gray...
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2017 10:54 AM by Elster.)
10-28-2017 10:53 AM
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Post: #123
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 10:53 AM)Elster Wrote:  It is a bit dissapointing to see what the analysis of anglosphere pundits in the alt web has been about this situation, an astounding cultural gap is very present in most of them: assange tweeting like an excited high school girl, tim poole running around referendum day in Barna like a beduin on a cloudy night in a forest, Styx gloating plain bollocks.etc

Team Catalonia here.

I do not accept the comparison between this situation and the US civil war, because in this case the Catalunya nation existed before Spain as we know it, they have a true distinct culture, language, everything.

Nations should be able to self determinate and the fact that they have ugly women or SJW members of parliament cannot change this principle.

Madrid has acted liked idiots in this situation , sending the police in voting stations, threatening to imprison the president, give me a fucking break.

Disclaimer: I'm from Quebec, this may influence how I view this.
10-28-2017 11:24 AM
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Post: #124
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 11:24 AM)Curunír Wrote:  I do not accept the comparison between this situation and the US civil war, because in this case the Catalunya nation existed before Spain as we know it, they have a true distinct culture, language, everything.

So did every other village,culture,and nation in the history of mankind exist before it was conquered/absorbed/dissolved/mixed with something else that succeeded it.

As for the catalonian president, he was asked several times by the central spanish authority to clarify what was his position,if he did indeed declare independence or not.
And the brave hero of the independence did not caveat to tyrannical puppet Rajoy by delivering a simple yes or no but instead beat around the bush until the deadline passed by.

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10-28-2017 11:48 AM
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Post: #125
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 10:53 AM)Elster Wrote:  It is a bit dissapointing to see what the analysis of anglosphere pundits in the alt web has been about this situation, an astounding cultural gap is very present in most of them: assange tweeting like an excited high school girl, tim poole running around referendum day in Barna like a beduin on a cloudy night in a forest, Styx gloating plain bollocks.etc

I'm just amused because its yet more political problems for the EU and the signs of the good times not being as they are meant to be. When people are unhappy and troubling events keep happening across different political spectrums and continents, you have to wonder what exactly is this road leading to.

Political and economic strife is the hallmark of worse times to come.
10-28-2017 12:20 PM
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