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Catalans declare independence from Spain
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 04:07 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Seriously, you need to drop the rah rah rah, "muh tribe is the best, look at muh history" and look objectively at your people's situation.

To the best of my knowledge, I have never been Catalan.

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10-29-2017 04:09 AM
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Post: #152
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
You guys are discussing this so much you're gonna end up missing the show.
This sitcom without laugh tracks (though you still get overpaid actors and noisy extras) and even some kickass action has blown critics away with its fresh spin on an ages old theme!

We move between light and shadow, mutually influencing and being influenced through shades of gray...
10-29-2017 04:34 AM
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Post: #153
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 03:00 PM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom?

The King of Leon must have asked something similar about the County of Portucale in 1128 (which had existed since 868 only).

(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?

How about the abolition of Aragon some 300 years ago?

if you have to go back to 1128 and 1717 to have pseudo arguments, then you have no arguments at all.
Besides, you did not answer to any of the questions.
10-29-2017 05:33 AM
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Post: #154
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 05:33 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  if you have to go back to 1128 and 1717 to have pseudo arguments, then you have no arguments at all.

Says the one who comes from a country that was formed when a half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead decided to rebel against his Leonese mother and split Galicia in two.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 05:57 AM by Icarus.)
10-29-2017 05:52 AM
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Post: #155
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
As far as I know, when Canada held a referendum while back, they asked whole country to vote.

How come Catalunya did referendum only in their region? I think they should ask whole Spain whether Catalunya should get their own country or not.
10-29-2017 06:54 AM
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Post: #156
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
No only Quebec voted, same with Scotland.

If the whole country votes on a secession issue of course the result will almost always be a no vote.

Maybe the Catalunyan referendum would not pass by a slight edge also if it was organized in an official way.

The policy of Spain to not allow a vote led to this.

Before Spain mismanaged the file in the last years , support for independence was in the upper 30's at the most.

Madrid did everything you should not do in my opinion.

They should organize a real vote with the undertaking by Madrid to recognize the results.
10-29-2017 08:37 AM
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Post: #157
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 08:37 AM)Curunír Wrote:  No only Quebec voted, same with Scotland.

If the whole country votes on a secession issue of course the result will almost always be a no vote.

Maybe the Catalunyan referendum would not pass by a slight edge also if it was organized in an official way.

The policy of Spain to not allow a vote led to this.

Before Spain mismanaged the file in the last years , support for independence was in the upper 30's at the most.

Madrid did everything you should not do in my opinion.

They should organize a real vote with the undertaking by Madrid to recognize the results.

Curunir, first of all, the whole referendum was a sham since the beggining. I dont think even the quebeqoi`s ones were so badly managed like this particular referendum. Second, the independentistas are not the mayority of the region. I know the place, i have family and friends there. The problem is that too many of those perroflautas got power in the local public institutions. The good thing is these BoBos are not made of the same material than the lefties and anarcas from the 30`s. Right now, it all a dam big tragi-comedy.

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10-29-2017 09:56 AM
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Post: #158
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Interestingly, I have observed that, amongst the Catalans I know, the most hardcore "CATALUNYA IS NOT SPAIN!!!" types are not even "pure" Catalans. One of them, for example, is Catalan from his mother's side, but his father's family came from Leon. Another acquaintance of mine comes from a family that has been Catalan for several generations and feels little pressure to pledge allegiance to the tribe, so to speak.

Has anyone observed anything similar?

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10-29-2017 10:04 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 10:04 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Interestingly, I have observed that, amongst the Catalans I know, the most hardcore "CATALUNYA IS NOT SPAIN!!!" types are not even "pure" Catalans. One of them, for example, is Catalan from his mother's side, but his father's family came from Leon. Another acquaintance of mine comes from a family that has been Catalan for several generations and feels little pressure to pledge allegiance to the tribe, so to speak.

Has anyone observed anything similar?

That is something a friend of mine was telling me. He was born in Cataluña, but his parents are from Galicia. And a good number of the most pro-independance perroflautas he knew are born from people from all over Spain.

"What is important is to try to develop insights and wisdom rather than mere knowledge, respect someone's character rather than his learning, and nurture men of character rather than mere talents." - Inazo Nitobe

When i´m feeling blue, when i just need something to shock me up, i look at this thread and everything get better!

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10-29-2017 10:23 AM
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Post: #160
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 07:52 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I believe Spain refused to recognize Kosovo for that very reason.

Spain participated in every step that Kosovo needed to declare independence, short of granting them recognition. It was a vocal supporter of the sanctions, the bombing, and the isolation of Serbia.

What goes around, comes around.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 10:38 AM by lowhead360.)
10-29-2017 10:35 AM
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Post: #161
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-28-2017 10:00 PM)Curunír Wrote:  But I can understand the difficult position to take between SJW Catalunya, EU who sides with Spain, Spain who no one really seems to like here and whatever interests the board has.

Sorry to disappoint but I actually love Spain. Good place to live or spend extended periods of your life, after of course you get used to all the noise. It's a noisy but beautiful country full of history. Yes, it's got a lot problems but I'm confident that Spain will pull through and may actually end up being one of the few nations standing after Northern Europe falls to Islam. That however is predicated on Catalunia remaining a part of Spain as I've elaborated upon in previous posts.

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10-29-2017 10:50 AM
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Post: #162
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 05:52 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Says the one who comes from a country that was formed when a half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead decided to rebel against his Leonese mother and split Galicia in two.

You really have a unique way of making friends, pal.

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10-29-2017 10:52 AM
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Post: #163
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 08:37 AM)Curunír Wrote:  Maybe the Catalunyan referendum would not pass by a slight edge also if it was organized in an official way.

The policy of Spain to not allow a vote led to this.

Before Spain mismanaged the file in the last years , support for independence was in the upper 30's at the most.

Madrid did everything you should not do in my opinion.

They should organize a real vote with the undertaking by Madrid to recognize the results.

It's my understanding that much of this came about because the Spanish government had reached an autonomy agreement with Catalonia, and the courts later overturned much of that agreement as unconstitutional, sending power back to Madrid.

I have no detailed knowledge of Spanish politics other than that they are insane, but to my mind, that creates an extremely fragile situation in which Catalonian separatists have a stronger moral case and Madrid would have been better off letting the referendum run, making sure that the results were accurate, and letting it fail on its own merits. The present situation looks like a clusterfuck royale from some third-world banana republic.

Hidey-ho, RVFerinos!
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10-29-2017 11:08 AM
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Post: #164
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 05:52 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-29-2017 05:33 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  if you have to go back to 1128 and 1717 to have pseudo arguments, then you have no arguments at all.

Says the one who comes from a country that was formed when a half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead decided to rebel against his Leonese mother and split Galicia in two.

Says the one who comes from a country that was discovered and founded by the successors of the half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead. BTW why dont Brazil give independence to the indians in the amazon forest?

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 11:49 AM by Rocha.)
10-29-2017 11:48 AM
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Post: #165
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 11:08 AM)Jetset Wrote:  
(10-29-2017 08:37 AM)Curunír Wrote:  Maybe the Catalunyan referendum would not pass by a slight edge also if it was organized in an official way.

The policy of Spain to not allow a vote led to this.

Before Spain mismanaged the file in the last years , support for independence was in the upper 30's at the most.

Madrid did everything you should not do in my opinion.

They should organize a real vote with the undertaking by Madrid to recognize the results.

It's my understanding that much of this came about because the Spanish government had reached an autonomy agreement with Catalonia, and the courts later overturned much of that agreement as unconstitutional, sending power back to Madrid.

I have no detailed knowledge of Spanish politics other than that they are insane, but to my mind, that creates an extremely fragile situation in which Catalonian separatists have a stronger moral case and Madrid would have been better off letting the referendum run, making sure that the results were accurate, and letting it fail on its own merits. The present situation looks like a clusterfuck royale from some third-world banana republic.

Mistakes have been made by both sides. I dont believe that this is the first time that's happened in politics. Nor is it the first time political discord looks like a clusterfuck... especially from the outside.

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10-29-2017 11:58 AM
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Post: #166
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 11:48 AM)Rocha Wrote:  Says the one who comes from a country that was discovered and founded by the successors of the half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead.

His full-Burgundian father died when he was a child. Without a father figure to discipline him, his mother lost control of him. He was the blue-blooded version of the fatherless ghetto kid who gets into trouble. Except that he did not join a gang, he started the oldest political entity still existent in Iberia.

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10-29-2017 01:07 PM
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Post: #167
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 11:08 AM)Jetset Wrote:  I have no detailed knowledge of Spanish politics other than that they are insane...

Not insaner than the Germans or the French really, but extremely stubborn people. Arriving at consent in Spain is pretty much the very last option once every other measure has been tried. They make horrible neighbors and Spanish companies are with filled lazy backstabbers who got and are keeping their job because of personal connections. You will never be able to convince a Spaniard of anything he/she doesn't already support. And winning an argument here is more important than being right.

It's one aspect of the Spanish mentality I always had a very hard time with, but it very much explains the dynamics of the Spanish polity.

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10-29-2017 01:16 PM
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Post: #168
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 10:23 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  
(10-29-2017 10:04 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Interestingly, I have observed that, amongst the Catalans I know, the most hardcore "CATALUNYA IS NOT SPAIN!!!" types are not even "pure" Catalans. One of them, for example, is Catalan from his mother's side, but his father's family came from Leon. Another acquaintance of mine comes from a family that has been Catalan for several generations and feels little pressure to pledge allegiance to the tribe, so to speak.

Has anyone observed anything similar?

That is something a friend of mine was telling me. He was born in Cataluña, but his parents are from Galicia. And a good number of the most pro-independance perroflautas he knew are born from people from all over Spain.

That sounds similar to how a convert to a religion ends up being more hardcore than someone born and raised into it (Jihadis that are western converts come to mind).
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 03:00 PM by Yatagan.)
10-29-2017 03:00 PM
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Post: #169
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 03:00 PM)Yatagan Wrote:  That sounds similar to how a convert to a religion ends up being more hardcore than someone born and raised into it (Jihadis that are western converts come to mind).

Yeap, converts tends to be way more fanatical than the old followers. They need to probe they are worthy of their new "club".

In other things, people got out to manifest in Barcelona for unity with the rest of Spain. Numbers vary from 1 millon (the organizers) to 300K (the Guadia Civil).

"What is important is to try to develop insights and wisdom rather than mere knowledge, respect someone's character rather than his learning, and nurture men of character rather than mere talents." - Inazo Nitobe

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2017 07:01 PM by Mekorig.)
10-29-2017 06:59 PM
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Post: #170
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 08:37 AM)Curunír Wrote:  No only Quebec voted, same with Scotland.

If the whole country votes on a secession issue of course the result will almost always be a no vote.

Maybe the Catalunyan referendum would not pass by a slight edge also if it was organized in an official way.

The policy of Spain to not allow a vote led to this.

Before Spain mismanaged the file in the last years , support for independence was in the upper 30's at the most.

Madrid did everything you should not do in my opinion.

They should organize a real vote with the undertaking by Madrid to recognize the results.

Then, if only every region or city votes on secession issue, then we would have 1000 countries by now too.

If you go ask and make referendum, Corsica - Basque - Diyarbakir - Daugapils - Tatars. %95 of the time they will vote yes.

You'll see bunch of tiny small countries like San Marino. I think you have to ask the whole country, not just small region. Because secession will affect everyone in the country, not just that region.
10-29-2017 09:44 PM
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Post: #171
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-29-2017 05:52 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-29-2017 05:33 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  if you have to go back to 1128 and 1717 to have pseudo arguments, then you have no arguments at all.

Says the one who comes from a country that was formed when a half-Burgundian 18 year old redhead decided to rebel against his Leonese mother and split Galicia in two.

Butthurt much?

But first, a bit of history:
1)The Queen (first monarch of Portucalense County/Portugal) was regent while the red headed was a minor(15 years). Then the 18 year old red headed, rebelled against the mother because due to her love affairs where she was plotting to take the county/kingdom (which had existed since 868) away from him. #Thereisareasonforindepencebesidesmuhfeelingz
2)The mother was called a Queen by the pope, so legitimate birthright of Kingship belonged to him and not to some Castillan/Leonese/Galician. #Thereisareasonforindepencebesidesmuhfeelingz
3)The county WAS invaded in 1127, and siege was laid to Guimarães. #Thereisareasonforindepencebesidesmuhfeelingz
3)Even when part of the kingdom of Galicia was conquered, as a preemptive strike it was done as it was customary. A medieval joust, to spare men to fight against the arabs. #Irrelevantforthediscussionasourworldwasbuiltonwar


Just one more thing, once again, you had to travel back to a time where there was no electricity, or democratic means, to still provide absolutely NO argument or a shred of possible reason for Catalonia independence.
Your pseudo comparison FAILS, HARD, in justifying Modern Catalonian Independence because of Ancient Portuguese Independence.

So, are you going to answer any of the questions or just going to continue typing pseudo bullshit comparisons??
Reminder:
When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom?
What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?
10-30-2017 09:10 AM
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Post: #172
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  The Queen (first monarch of Portucalense County/Portugal) was regent while the red headed was a minor(15 years). Then the 18 year old red headed, rebelled against the mother because due to her love affairs where she was plotting to take the county/kingdom (which had existed since 868) away from him.

Exactly. The oldest political entity in Iberia that still exists started with a family feud. There was no Portuguese identity at the time. The language was almost certainly indistinguishable from Galician. Had Portugal ever been a country? Certainly not.

If you knew anything of Aragonese history — which apparently you don't — you would know that Catalunya has an identity going back to the late Middle Ages, which was when Portugal started to acquire its own identity.


(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  NO argument or a shred of possible reason for Catalonia independence.

Since you are Portuguese, you should be able to find plenty of reasons for Catalan independence. For example, Spain without Catalunya is weaker and poses much less of a threat to Portugal. The EU and NATO won't last forever, but geography is (almost) eternal.

Even though Franco had plans to pre-emptively invade Portugal to prevent a British invasion during WWII, here you are cheering for the dominance of your own country's historical enemy — Castilla — against a people that clearly has its own language and culture dating back to the days of the Reconquista.

For some 800 years, Portugal's defense policy was based on preventing a Leonese / Castillian / Spanish invasion. The country survived against all odds. To reduce the risk of invasion, you can strengthen yourself and / or weaken the potential enemy. Portugal does not have the economy to strengthen itself militarily. Catalan secession would be a gift from heaven for Portugal's long-term security...


(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom?

Would Republic of Aragon sound better to you?

At first it could consist of Catalunya only. If it prospered, perhaps Valencia, Mallorca and Ibiza would join in. Galicia could perhaps become a Portuguese protectorate. Spain would be left with Gran Castilla and little more. It would pose much less of a threat to Portugal.

Why aren't you cheering for the weakening of the historical enemy? Do you think Portugal can defend itself with a handful of F-16s, when Spain has Eurofighters and F/A-18s? How many Portuguese guys between the ages of 18 and 35 even know how to shoot a rifle? Is anyone proposing, for example, paramilitary training for young adult males during the weekends and vacations? No, because Portugal expired itself in Africa in the 1960s and early 1970s and has become too feminized.

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(This post was last modified: 10-30-2017 10:17 AM by Icarus.)
10-30-2017 09:52 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Quote:Catalan leader travels to Brussels as Spanish state prosecutor calls for rebellion and sedition charges

Ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has traveled to Brussels, amid reports he will meet with Flemish nationalists, after Spain’s chief prosecutor announced charges of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds will be brought against the Catalan government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/...arliament/

This keep getting funnier by the minute...

"What is important is to try to develop insights and wisdom rather than mere knowledge, respect someone's character rather than his learning, and nurture men of character rather than mere talents." - Inazo Nitobe

When i´m feeling blue, when i just need something to shock me up, i look at this thread and everything get better!

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10-30-2017 10:54 AM
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Post: #174
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
So it seems that is was in fact all talk so far. . .
10-30-2017 11:06 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
No surprise really. They pushed their bluff too far

(10-10-2017 03:57 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  I suspect there will be some back channel concessions to the Catalan government to appease them. That or some of them will start to get arrested and charged with sedition

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(This post was last modified: 10-30-2017 11:28 AM by PapayaTapper.)
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