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Catalans declare independence from Spain
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Wreckingball Offline
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Post: #176
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-30-2017 09:52 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  The Queen (first monarch of Portucalense County/Portugal) was regent while the red headed was a minor(15 years). Then the 18 year old red headed, rebelled against the mother because due to her love affairs where she was plotting to take the county/kingdom (which had existed since 868) away from him.

Exactly. The oldest political entity in Iberia that still exists started with a family feud. There was no Portuguese identity at the time. The language was almost certainly indistinguishable from Galician. Had Portugal ever been a country? Certainly not.

If you knew anything of Aragonese history — which apparently you don't — you would know that Catalunya has an identity going back to the late Middle Ages, which was when Portugal started to acquire its own identity.


(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  NO argument or a shred of possible reason for Catalonia independence.

Since you are Portuguese, you should be able to find plenty of reasons for Catalan independence. For example, Spain without Catalunya is weaker and poses much less of a threat to Portugal. The EU and NATO won't last forever, but geography is (almost) eternal.

Even though Franco had plans to pre-emptively invade Portugal to prevent a British invasion during WWII, here you are cheering for the dominance of your own country's historical enemy — Castilla — against a people that clearly has its own language and culture dating back to the days of the Reconquista.

For some 800 years, Portugal's defense policy was based on preventing a Leonese / Castillian / Spanish invasion. The country survived against all odds. To reduce the risk of invasion, you can strengthen yourself and / or weaken the potential enemy. Portugal does not have the economy to strengthen itself militarily. Catalan secession would be a gift from heaven for Portugal's long-term security...


(10-30-2017 09:10 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom?

Would Republic of Aragon sound better to you?

At first it could consist of Catalunya only. If it prospered, perhaps Valencia, Mallorca and Ibiza would join in. Galicia could perhaps become a Portuguese protectorate. Spain would be left with Castilla and little more. It would pose much less of a threat to Portugal.

Why aren't you cheering for the weakening of the historical enemy? Do you think Portugal can defend itself with a handful of F-16s, when Spain has Eurofighters and F/A-18s? How many Portuguese guys between the ages of 18 and 35 even know how to shoot a rifle? Is anyone proposing, for example, paramilitary training for young adult males during the Summer? No, because Portugal expired itself in Africa in the 1960s and early 1970s and has become too feminized.

Had Portugal ever been a country? No, it was, a county. And like i just mentioned, there was just cause for rebellion as the rightful successor was being seconded by the mother.
I would like to remind we are talking about 1143, which is completely irrelevant for the case in modern times. Our language derives, just like galician, from Roman, so perhaps according to your idea of ridiculous blasts from the past we should be reintegrated with Italy?
For a non-catalan, you are strangely defending it very passionately. But, once more, without providing any argument why Catalans should have their independence. I have seen pseudo arguments of why any of us should want it, but not why Catalans deserve it or should have it. Stop talking about Portugal and what happened in 1143. Talk about Catalunya and/or the present.


What historical enemy? What are you smoking? Do you even live in Spain or Portugal or even Europe for that Matter? Are you back in the 1640's or living in 2017? There is no cause for a war between Portugal and Spain in the next 50 years and just saying something like that makes me think you are being borderline retarded (I apologize as I do not wish to insult you, but you have clearly no clue of the politics or history from the region). There is EU and there is NATO and they are currently our biggest assets against any invasion. With all their faults, they will last longer than any of us, in one form or the other.
And neither Portugal nor Spain would benefit from a war. And Portugal would never benefit from a weaker Spain (and weaker euro) as they are one of our biggest trading partners. If our allies are economically strong we will also rise with them.
The only threat Catalunya poses to Portugal is when Barcelona comes to Portugal to kick our asses in soccer, nothing else and I even heard FCBarcelona is planning to move to England.


Franco had his plan of invasion, but if you walk along the border, you may still find some Portuguese "bunkers". Up until 1974 we had a contingency plan to defend from Spanish invasion.
Even if Spain would invade, Portugal has absolutely no money, manpower, or equipment to sustain a War that lasts longer than 7 days. We are not currently planning on attacking our allies and I doubt that Rajoy, a Galician, is planning on attacking us and perhaps having some American democracy delivered in Madrid.

Spain may be weaker without Catalunya, but Catalunya is absolutely NOTHING without Spain and their internal sinergies. Madrid, Basque Country, Navarra are all richer than Catalunya and produce more wealth than Catalunya. It's funny that you mention the riches of Catalunya, but what is the total debt of Catalunya? Its about 76Bilion Euro. And since their rating has been cut, they cannot go to market to get funding, they have to rely on.... Madrid! So good to proclaim they are so rich when they suck on Madrids tit.
Good luck getting out.

Companies are leaving by the hundreds a day. They are only there, because of the proximity to Andorra and France.
Catalunya or Galicia would go completely apeshit if they left spain, as they would have to also leave Eurozone, and EU, thus leaving them in economic turmoil and immense debt for a couple decades. To be part of EU you need to have the consent of the EU institutions and EU member states. Well, I doubt that Spain would consent, and Portugal will not (at the moment) recognize Catalunya as a country.

And is it me or Aragon is a small part of Catalunya, which was invaded and integrated in a country, much like several regions in Europe?
The last king of Aragon died in 1516, and by marrying Isabel they united Aragon with Castilla, creating the Spanish Monarchy. How interesting and fitting for your argument that the last king of Aragon, is actually the responsible for the creation of "Spain" as we know it..


I would actually would like to know where are you from. Me, as both Portuguese and Galician, I absolutely KNOW that a Galician independence would shatter even more poor Galician economy and that Catalunya independence is nothing more than a shot in each feet where Catalans have nothing to gain, but everything to lose. Their biggest strength is their synergy within the country where they live.

Good luck with you independence, and enjoy your failed, soon to be socialist, state.
10-30-2017 11:24 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #177
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  What historical enemy? What are you smoking?

Most wars Portugal fought in Europe were fought against Leon / Castilla / Spain. The wars against the Moors ended over 750 years ago, when Portugal was not even 100 years old (as an independent kingdom recognized by the Pope, that is).


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  There is no cause for a war between Portugal and Spain in the next 50 years

Sorry, I didn't know that history will end in 2067...


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  There is EU and there is NATO and they are currently our biggest assets against any invasion. With all their faults, they will last longer than any of us, in one form or the other.

Portugal is some 800 years older than NATO. I am betting on Portugal.

Catalan independence would contribute to Portugal's security for the next 500 years. Partitioning Spain would create 3 political entities in Iberia. Spain is much stronger than Portugal, but Portugal + Catalunya can serve as counterweight to Spain, militarily and otherwise.


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  And neither Portugal nor Spain would benefit from a war.

They would not benefit from a war now. But why would things stay as they are forever?

Are you in Portugal right now? If so, go outside. Does the weather seem normal for late October? Like California, much of Portugal is plagued by drought. Assume that the weather in Iberia warms up a bit in the next 200 years. Desertification kicks in. Spain takes too much water from the Douro, Tejo and Guadiana to water their crops. Portugal's hydroelectric dams cannot generate power. Farmers in Alentejo have no water and their crops are gone. How will they feed yourselves? And how will the cities be powered when hydroelectric dams are generating little? Will you use candles?

How would Portugal retaliate? Complain to the United Nations?

You seem to live under the delusion that the hydrocarbon-fueled prosperity of the past century will last forever. Without the ability to synthesize fertilizer — which is roughly a century old — there would only be resources for maybe 4 billion people on this planet.


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  And Portugal would never benefit from a weaker Spain (and weaker euro) as they are one of our biggest trading partners.

And, under the scenario above, Spain could save its crops at the expense of Portuguese farmers. The Portuguese farmers would have to sell their farms to multinationals, some of them owned by Spanish people. The farmers' sons would have to work as constructions workers around Europe. They would have kids abroad and not pay taxes in Portugal, which would doom the Portuguese welfare system even further.

To summarize, Spain would have the ability to desertify and depopulate Portugal, and Portugal would not be able to retaliate.


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  Even if Spain would invade, Portugal has absolutely no money, manpower, or equipment to sustain a War that lasts longer than 7 days.

But you have troops in Mali and in the Central African Republic, don't you?

No one is claiming that you should prepare for war tomorrow. Yet, if Portuguese (and Western European in general) men found their balls again, perhaps they would be in a position to effectively defend their country if the need arose. My definition of manhood includes more than sporting a hipster beard and behaving like a clown to seduce and bang Erasmus sluts from Eastern Europe. The half-Burgundian redhead was king at 18. Über-alpha!!


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  Spain may be weaker without Catalunya, but Catalunya is absolutely NOTHING without Spain and their internal sinergies.

Which is why I believe that a confederation would be wiser. Catalunya may be a bit too small to have its own army, navy, air force, plus some 100+ embassies worldwide.


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  The last king of Aragon died in 1516, and by marrying Isabel they united Aragon with Castilla, creating the Spanish Monarchy. How interesting and fitting for your argument that the last king of Aragon, is actually the responsible for the creation of "Spain" as we know it.

Not quite. It was a dual monarchy. The king of Spain had both kingdoms. From 1580 till 1640, he also had the Kingdom of Portugal. Aragon had its own Parliament until 1707 or so. The last Aragonese king was the last Habsburg king of Spain, who died in 1700. The first Bourbon king abolished Aragon and its institutions. Aragon then became a colony of Castilla and modern Spain was born.

That is Catalunya's case for independence. If Latin-America (minus Brazil) was colonized (mostly) by the Habsburgs, Catalunya was colonized by the Bourbons (and Franco). The Valencians seem to be kind of fine with it, but Catalans are less submissive.


(10-30-2017 11:24 AM)Wreckingball Wrote:  Me, as both Portuguese and Galician

Genetically speaking, so am I.

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(This post was last modified: 10-30-2017 12:46 PM by Icarus.)
10-30-2017 12:32 PM
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Post: #178
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Icarus, i found your knowledge of history refreshing, and i agree that you, as a countrym must have "conflict hypothesis" with all the countries around you (and even ones far away from your coasts). But you are beggining to sound funny by pushing a posible conflict between Spain and Portugal right now. Heck, even if you analize the cultural and social trend in both countries, they are closer ans closer with each year.

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10-30-2017 02:42 PM
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Post: #179
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Julian Assange is becoming quite the comedian.

@JulianAssange 4m
Quote:If voting made a difference they would make it illegal.

Spain: Hold my beer.
10-31-2017 05:12 AM
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Post: #180
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Assange jumped the shark on this one,as much respect as he deserves he is talking from his ass without the slightest idea.
Most likely he's also bought the story of Barna hosting The fabled Tortlantis, where dreadlocked hackers and autistic simps live secret lives free of the centralized web...

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10-31-2017 06:54 AM
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Post: #181
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 05:12 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  Julian Assange is becoming quite the comedian.

Some of his jokes are good:


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10-31-2017 07:21 AM
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morales Offline
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Post: #182
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
@Icarus Why the fuck would Spain have the need to invade Portugal? Portugal poses no threat to them and vice-versa. It's just hypothesis that will never happen in normal circumstances, there's no point in arguing who has more man power or military if they don't serve shit.
Btw, the weather is pretty normal for this time of the year. October has always been a beach month for me, since I remember. The main problem currently is drought yes. It hasn't rained shit. Even last year the temperatures we're exactly the same as it is now. It's just people have short memory.

It's a natural human trait to get a hold of resources and fight them over in groups to hold power and influence. To me it seems this catalonia stuff it's just a matter of pride. The "wisdom of crowds" becomes a real thing as you can see with the Brexit. History has showed us in the past two centuries that when countries are united they become stronger.
The biggest economic development or GDP growth that turned into more material comfort and less people out of poverty line, happened when there were less restrictions, bureaucracy or borders and free trade, as you can see post WWII. GAATS and bretton woods are a fine example of it.
Catalonia has little to win from my point of view; yes, it will gain some autonomy, but it will loose some fiscal revenue due to some companies leaving. Money doesn't like instability, if it they have their own coin, there will be capital flying away. As they are a small country, they will not have control over their interest rates and rating and so on. Their coin will devalue, as their salaries. Sure, they can do Ireland and lower the tax rates but that's not ethical or sustainable long term. Bottom line, economically they will suffer as it does every small country that is isolated.
If they wanna be free, then be it. I'm not in favour of having someone at the table that is not in good will. It's like having a 18 year old kid leaving the house, if they want it then let them go, but make sure there are consequences, even if they wanna come back
10-31-2017 07:34 AM
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Post: #183
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Why the fuck would Spain have the need to invade Portugal?

I don't know. I cannot predict the future.

Wise defense policy is based on weakening the potential enemy's capability, so that his intent becomes irrelevant.


(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Portugal poses no threat to them and vice-versa.

Much of Portugal is under severe drought. If the time comes when Spain has to choose whether to feed its farmers or Portuguese farmers, which ones will Spain choose?


(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Even last year the temperatures we're exactly the same as it is now.

It rained a lot more in October 2016.


(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  History has showed us in the past two centuries that when countries are united they become stronger.

Ideally, they unite voluntarily, as equals. Did Aragonese institutions abolish themselves via referendum? No, they were abolished by the French-born King of Spain, who wanted Spain to become a centralized state like France. The Aragonese peoples never had a say in the matter.


(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  The biggest economic development or GDP growth that turned into more material comfort and less people out of poverty line, happened when there were less restrictions, bureaucracy or borders and free trade, as you can see post WWII.

A period that coincided with the massive use of synthetic fertilizer and hydrocarbons. It wasn't free trade that created that sweet dinosaur juice...

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(This post was last modified: 10-31-2017 08:00 AM by Icarus.)
10-31-2017 07:58 AM
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Post: #184
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-30-2017 02:42 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  you are beggining to sound funny by pushing a posible conflict between Spain and Portugal right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgwsdBR_N1w

IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN

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10-31-2017 08:21 AM
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Going strong Offline
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Post: #185
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Portugal won't invade Spain, which won't invade Portugal. Nevertheless, both are and will be invaded by Africa.

Feuds between European nations are meaningless. We Europeans have a single common enemy: Sub Saharan Africa and its half-a-billion unemployed male migrants, intent on landing on our shores.

Once again, all male African migrants know the saying: "Reach Barcelona or die trying".

So all this stuff about Portuguese, Spaniards, Catalans, the French, is a joke: only matters, Africa, which has the potential of ending all of our European civilizations, within twenty years.
10-31-2017 08:25 AM
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Post: #186
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Containing the African hordes is more than simple. If only Europe recovered (well, Western Europe) it's collective balls it would be so, so easy.

BORDERS MATTER, BORDERS ARE REASONABLE, BORDERS SHOULD AND MUST BE PROTECTED.

How hard is this?

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10-31-2017 08:34 AM
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Post: #187
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 08:25 AM)Going strong Wrote:  We Europeans have a single common enemy: Sub Saharan Africa and its half-a-billion unemployed male migrants, intent on landing on our shores.

True. And why are they migrating northwards? One reason is that the Sahara is slowly drifting south. Sub-Saharan Africa is shrinking. Desertification is accelerating.

Going back almost 2 millennia, it was changes in climate that pushed westwards nomadic steppe peoples like the Huns, where they clashed with the Germanic barbarians, which eventually led to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Apparently, modern European elites never learned anything that truly matters.

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10-31-2017 08:44 AM
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Post: #188
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
"Desertification of sub-Saharan Africa" is just an excuse. There is more than enough fertile land there to feed two continents, not just that region. Not to mention that "sub-Saharan African refugees" don't come to Europe because they're hungry, but because they've heard there's plenty of idiots handing out free stuff.

The problem is not this or that region of the world, the problem is Europe, which is cucked and rotten to the core.

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(This post was last modified: 10-31-2017 09:02 AM by Handsome Creepy Eel.)
10-31-2017 09:01 AM
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Post: #189
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 09:01 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  There is more than enough fertile land there to feed two continents, not just that region.

Which is why Europe should re-colonize Africa, not for profit per se, but to keep the barbarian hordes away from European shores.

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10-31-2017 09:19 AM
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Post: #190
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 09:19 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-31-2017 09:01 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  There is more than enough fertile land there to feed two continents, not just that region.

Which is why Europe should re-colonize Africa, not for profit per se, but to keep the barbarian hordes away from European shores.

If they did that right now they'd enter a collision course with China! lol

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10-31-2017 09:29 AM
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Post: #191
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 09:29 AM)Elster Wrote:  If they did that right now they'd enter a collision course with China! lol

Some of Angola's laws were written by Portuguese MBAs with no academic background in law. Africa does not speak Chinese.

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10-31-2017 09:38 AM
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Post: #192
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Nope but from what the internets speak,it sounds as if the chinese are getting pretty busy colon-setting business up in Africa?

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10-31-2017 09:50 AM
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Post: #193
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 09:38 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-31-2017 09:29 AM)Elster Wrote:  If they did that right now they'd enter a collision course with China! lol

Some of Angola's laws were written by Portuguese MBAs with no academic background in law. Africa does not speak Chinese.

For now, but in a short time....

The chinese are making huge inroads in the continent.

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10-31-2017 09:56 AM
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Post: #194
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 09:56 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  The chinese are making huge inroads in the continent.

True, and in Angola they have built some shit roads and shit hospitals, which harmed their credibility. Suddenly, construction companies from the former colonizer do not sound so bad, especially so since the local workers and the foreign engineers speak the same language.

There are also Brazilian companies in Angola. Same language, similar accent. Both colonized by the same former colonizer. No bad blood.

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(This post was last modified: 10-31-2017 10:11 AM by Icarus.)
10-31-2017 10:10 AM
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Post: #195
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Does this mean we can go heart of darkness and find adventure and profit once more in Africa?

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10-31-2017 10:28 AM
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Post: #196
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 10:28 AM)Elster Wrote:  Does this mean we can go heart of darkness and find adventure and profit once more in Africa?

Well, yes, countries like Gana, Nigeria and so on... Angola still gives money and a lot of it but not as much as it it was in the past. Nowadays, there's money but not for all. The "protégées" of Isabel dos Santos still receive it, although it's needed a lot of money engineering to bring it back to PT. The swiss don't accept it anymore as soon as they hear of angola.
Anyway, it's bound to end and there will be a shift in the paradigm with the new president João Lourenço. He promised a chase to all "dos Santos" businesses.
10-31-2017 10:37 AM
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Post: #197
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
Quote:Catalonia's ex-president Puigdemont: I'm not in Belgium to seek asylum

Ousted leader says he would return immediately if a fair judicial process was guaranteed in Spain, where he may face charges including rebellion

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/o...dependence

The comedy just keep going...i will need more popcorn for this.

"What is important is to try to develop insights and wisdom rather than mere knowledge, respect someone's character rather than his learning, and nurture men of character rather than mere talents." - Inazo Nitobe

When i´m feeling blue, when i just need something to shock me up, i look at this thread and everything get better!

Letters from the battlefront: Argentina
10-31-2017 10:39 AM
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Icarus Offline
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Post: #198
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 10:28 AM)Elster Wrote:  Does this mean we can go heart of darkness and find adventure and profit once more in Africa?

Yes, but this time the white man works for the African oligarch.

It's like an Oreo cookie: black top, black bottom, white in the middle. One reason to have whitey on board is to ensure that the resentment from the working class blacks is directed at the visible whitey "MBA-bureaucrats", rather than at the less visible black owners.

"The great secret of happiness in love is to be glad that the other fellow married her." – H.L. Mencken
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2017 10:44 AM by Icarus.)
10-31-2017 10:42 AM
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morales Offline
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Post: #199
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-31-2017 10:39 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  
Quote:Catalonia's ex-president Puigdemont: I'm not in Belgium to seek asylum

Ousted leader says he would return immediately if a fair judicial process was guaranteed in Spain, where he may face charges including rebellion

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/o...dependence

The comedy just keep going...i will need more popcorn for this.

Funny shit, he wants no violence and he agrees with the elections. Seems like we're in the XX century where fighters would flee from the dictatorship to gather forces and fight back from abroad.
I'm going to barcelona next week, i'll get some actual feedback from what locals thinks. I wonder if they dig this guy. Because, apparently spanish people from outer barcelona think he's a jerk.
P.S.: He also posted a "good morning" pic on instagram from inside the government facilities in barcelona, like he was just there, when apparently he was already in brussels
10-31-2017 10:45 AM
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Post: #200
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
I can tell you that in Valencia people were cheering to see Puigdemont in a striped suit

We move between light and shadow, mutually influencing and being influenced through shades of gray...
10-31-2017 10:50 AM
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