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Catalans declare independence from Spain
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Repo Offline
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Catalans declare independence from Spain
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

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The Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, while the Spanish parliament has approved direct rule over the region.
Catalan MPs backed the motion 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by the opposition.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy earlier told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia.
The crisis began when Catalans backed independence in a disputed vote earlier this month.

The debate came after Catalan President Carles Puigdemont on Thursday opted against declaring independence or calling early elections, instead calling on MPs to decide.
A motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favour, 10 against, and two abstentions in the 135-seat chamber.
The measure calls for the transfer of legal powers from Spain to an independent Catalonia.
But the Spanish Constitutional Court is likely to declare it illegal, and few in the international community will recognise Catalan statehood.
Immediately afterwards, Mr Rajoy called for all Spaniards to remain calm, promising to "restore legality" to Catalonia.
10-27-2017 09:49 AM
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Post: #2
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 10:02 AM by Elster.)
10-27-2017 10:01 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
They'll probably try to use the Kosovo precedent to gain recognition.

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10-27-2017 10:05 AM
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heavy Offline
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
To my simple mind, I don't understand why Spain (Madrid) would fight a portion of their country from liberating themselves. I don't understand the idea that "we can't let these people leave"...or even more accurate and more befuddling, "we can't let people in this area develop their own autonomous rule of law independent of ours".

It's bizarre. I think it goes back to what Gavin McInnes says.

"There's two kinds of people: People who want to be left the fuck alone, and people who won't leave you the fuck alone."

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10-27-2017 10:10 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.
10-27-2017 10:14 AM
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heavy Offline
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 10:16 AM by heavy.)
10-27-2017 10:16 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
I said it in the other thread, the people in Barcelona pushing this are all pussies. The second the going gets tough, they'll run away.

Independence costs blood and these libtards don't even have skin in the game.

They just want freebies from the government and want to continue their hang in the cafe siesta lifestyle where no one works and 50% of their kids live at home or go to grad school until their mid 30s.

I hold very little respect for the lazy Cantalonians and Spantards.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 10:42 AM by The Beast1.)
10-27-2017 10:21 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

Heavy, have you seen the voting? Or at least read a little about the whole thing? Almost all the opposition left the Catalonian Parlament in protest to that illegal voting.

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10-27-2017 10:26 AM
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Post: #9
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
This nytimes article from a couple weeks ago was pretty balanced. Actually Barcelona is apparently much more neutral on the independence question since many of their residents are from abroad or other parts of Spain. It's really the villages and small cities that are hardcore pro-independence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/world...atism.html

I know this is the times, but I don't really see them pushing an agenda. If anything, seems like they are trying to denigrate the independence movement as nativist.

Quote:In short, people are worried. First among them is the city’s leftist mayor, Ada Colau, who, despite expressing support for independence in the past, says she is now not in favor of leaving. “It’s a very pluralistic city and there is a lot of diversity of opinions in Barcelona,” she said in an interview this week.

The city is not exactly comparable to London — which favored remaining in the European Union — since Barcelona is still home to many separatists. “But if you compare it with people in the heart of Catalonia,” Ms. Colau said, “it’s not as pro-independence.”

Apparently the Barcelonians are more globalist in their outlook and therefore anti independence?

Quote:As an economic powerhouse that has welcomed migrants from many other parts of Spain, Barcelona has a more “cosmopolitan” outlook than the rest of Catalonia, Ms. Colau said.

Cities, rather than nation states, “are the future,” she said. “I am a citizen of Barcelona and a municipalist — and that’s the main reason that I am in the city hall not the Catalan regional government.”

Some more interesting data points:

Quote:Yet a breakdown of the results shows that the no vote in the Barcelona metropolitan area (9.8 percent) was — though still low — more than double the rate outside the city (4.7 percent).

The city also recently hosted a large pro-Spain rally, unlike most towns in Catalonia, where it is rare to even see a Spanish flag.

In essence there are three Catalonias, said Oriol Bartomeus, a politics professor at the Autonomous University of Barcelona.

“You have the small or middle-sized cities and towns, where the support for independence is massive,” he said. “Then you have all the cities surrounding Barcelona, where the majority of people speak Spanish at home, and where the support for independence is” — in comparative terms — “low.”

“And then you have Barcelona,” he added, “which is a mixture of both worlds.”

Polling suggests that the presence of migrants from other parts of Spain, whose families moved from regions like Andalusia and Extremadura in the 1960s and ’70s, has contributed to a more diverse range of attitudes toward independence.

Over two-thirds of people born in Catalonia to Catalan-born parents wanted independence, according to research published in July by the Center for Opinion Studies, a pollster funded by the Catalan government.

By contrast, nearly two-thirds of Catalan residents who were born outside the region, or who had at least one parent born outside it, wanted to remain part of Spain, it suggested.

I really think the "Catalan-bad-feminists-and pro EU/refugee globalists" vs "Spain-good-nationalists-muslim bulwark" narrative is far oversimplified. I really don't see these hardcore small Catalan villages and towns opening their arms to refugees - but I can definitely imagine that from the Barcelona cosmopolitans. I haven't spent much time there though so my impressions could be totally off. What I did notice when I was there was that Barcelona locals gave me zero bonus points for speaking Spanish, unlike in Madrid where they became much more open.

At the very least, this whole incident shows that nation states align based on ethnicity/genetics, language, and religion. Those factors remain relevant today. We can use this to in fact argue against mass immigration - if Catalans can't get along with the Spanish, then obviously they will not be able to get along with mass immigration from the third world.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 10:38 AM by Arado.)
10-27-2017 10:37 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
There will be blood.

Spain isn't going to let a substantial chunk of their economy leave.

Question is how far will they go? Will they do what the North did to the South in the US civil war and burn catolonia - or specifically Barcelona - to the ground, destroy the infrastructure, and set it back 150+ years?

Maybe. Maybe not.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 10:45 AM by armenia4ever.)
10-27-2017 10:45 AM
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Post: #11
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

Dupe thread

The US Civil War was fought over this very issue. State's rights vs federal government. No central government will let a region "go" just because it wants to.

This is going nowhere. The EU has already declared that this is an internal issue to Spain. In other words the EU wouldn't accept or even recognize an independent Catalonia.

Several large banks and major corporations that were headquartered in Barcelona have already relocated their offices. Money doesn't like instability.

This is all posturing on the part of Puidgemont(sic) government, intended to gain concessions from Madrid, that went too far. Madrid called their bluff. All he's done is ensure his time in office will end sooner rather than later and get a few of his buddies arrested and charged with sedition.

There will be a few marches and protests and shit but then the Catalonians will get back to doing what they do best...sit around and complaining from 9am to 2pm taking a break then back at it from 5pm to 8

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10-27-2017 10:52 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

55 MPs who were a part of the opposition literally walked out in protest as there's 135 in the Parliament(technically 70-65 then). It was by no means a large margin.


Anyways this independence movement is bunk. Fucking morons for rebelling.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:02 AM by Comte De St. Germain.)
10-27-2017 11:01 AM
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Post: #13
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
If you want to get an idea of how the rest of the Spaniards feel about the situation, you need only take a stroll in non-catalonian town and look up to the windows and balconies...

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10-27-2017 11:04 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:04 AM)Elster Wrote:  If you want to get an idea of how the rest of the Spaniards feel about the situation, you need only take a stroll in non-catalonian town and look up to the windows and balconies...

Ill be back in Valencia on Tuesday..what will I see?

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10-27-2017 11:07 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:07 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 11:04 AM)Elster Wrote:  If you want to get an idea of how the rest of the Spaniards feel about the situation, you need only take a stroll in non-catalonian town and look up to the windows and balconies...

Ill be back in Valencia on Tuesday..what will I see?

Spanish flags have sold more than in the world cup since the last week before the referendum.
As what concerns Valentians,the buzz on the street is that many have expressed disappointment at not seeing Puigdemont in jail as of yet, apparently he is not very well liked. Doubly funny is the fact that Valencia also has an occitanian language and culture that is not too different from the catalonian Whip

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:11 AM by Elster.)
10-27-2017 11:09 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:07 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 11:04 AM)Elster Wrote:  If you want to get an idea of how the rest of the Spaniards feel about the situation, you need only take a stroll in non-catalonian town and look up to the windows and balconies...

Ill be back in Valencia on Tuesday..what will I see?

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:13 AM by Lime.)
10-27-2017 11:12 AM
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heavy Offline
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:26 AM)Mekorig Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

Heavy, have you seen the voting? Or at least read a little about the whole thing? Almost all the opposition left the Catalonian Parlament in protest to that illegal voting.

No I haven't. I don't know anything about it until now. And I don't fully understand your last sentence.

My point was, it has to get pretty bad to declare independence from a state that's telling you they're going to come in with guns and bombs and deny you that independence (in the West anyway).

And you have to really want a bunch of people under your rule of law to bring in guns and bombs to threaten their lives and freedom to maintain that rule of law.

I'm American, so I don't know much about how Spain was founded. I'm just coming at it from my American perspective of States' rights and individualism. And I'm very aware that my philosophy on this (and the United States Founders' philosophy) is scarce among my fellow citizens.

I found a map of the voting.

[Image: 2017-catalonia-referendum-results-map-mu...-votes.png]

http://www.polgeonow.com/2017/10/catalon...ities.html

I'm just trying to understand this. I'm not taking any position on it. I am increasingly interested in this though.

Comte De St. Germain, good point out the 55 MPs walking out in opposition. I assume that shows the rebels fervency. However, I tend to not jump to the conclusion that they're morons. I assume there's good reason for rebelling, and good reason to quell it.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:23 AM by heavy.)
10-27-2017 11:15 AM
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Post: #18
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:10 AM)heavy Wrote:  To my simple mind, I don't understand why Spain (Madrid) would fight a portion of their country from liberating themselves.

Ask Abraham Lincoln!

Spain has issued bonds. Spain has pensions to pay. Wishful thinking is not enough to pay the bills. Secession must be planned very carefully. Catalan freedom should not cause Andalusian misery, for example.

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10-27-2017 11:17 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:21 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I hold very little respect for the lazy Cantalonians and Spantards.

Nobody who matters cares what you think. Know your place.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:21 AM by Icarus.)
10-27-2017 11:19 AM
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RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:19 AM)Icarus Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:21 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I hold very little respect for the lazy Cantalonians and Spantards.

Nobody who matters cares what you think. Know your place.

The same could be leveled at you sunshine.
You have one immensely lazy government going up against an even lazier regional government. Nothing will come of this because the Catalans don't have it in them to die for their independence. Tree of liberty, blood of patriots.

They'll fold and this will be forgotten in a few weeks, just like the irrelevant Greeks, their do-nothing politicians, and the government which sold away all of their public assets to pay for their socialism and nearly defaulted debts.

Your post is spoken like a true Spaniard, don't take it personally.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:30 AM by The Beast1.)
10-27-2017 11:24 AM
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Post: #21
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:01 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

55 MPs who were a part of the opposition literally walked out in protest as there's 135 in the Parliament(technically 70-65 then). It was by no means a large margin.


Anyways this independence movement is bunk. Fucking morons for rebelling.

The same thing happened during the referendum vote. Madrid declared it illegal and told people not to vote...so the loyalists stayed away. So only those "pro-independence" voted resulting in "90% in favor of independence". Never mind that only 38% of eligible voters cast a ballot.

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10-27-2017 11:25 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

The vote....
There was no definitive list of voters on the vote.
There was no registry of people that voted.
People could, and did vote more than once.
The percentage of people that voted, was quite small for such an "important" referendum. Brexit had 26%. This one had 58%.
The vote is unconstitutional and breaks Catalonia autonomous status.

In every part of a civilized world, this vote is nothing but a poorly executed leftist tactic.
10-27-2017 11:29 AM
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Post: #23
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:24 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Nothing will come of this because they don't have it in them to die for their independence. Tree of liberty, blood of patriots.

This has nothing to do with laziness. Catalans are famous for being entrepreneurial.

Catalans are very bourgeois. Bourgeois people are not good at sacrificing themselves. Especially so when birth rates are this low.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 11:31 AM by Icarus.)
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Post: #24
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
(10-27-2017 11:25 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 11:01 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:16 AM)heavy Wrote:  
(10-27-2017 10:14 AM)Repo Wrote:  You think the US would be cool if New York or California declared independence?

Catalans makes up a huge portion of Spain's GDP, of course they don't want them to leave.

Cool?

I don't think it'd be cooler to force them to stay, especially if the vote was 70 to 10 to leave.

55 MPs who were a part of the opposition literally walked out in protest as there's 135 in the Parliament(technically 70-65 then). It was by no means a large margin.


Anyways this independence movement is bunk. Fucking morons for rebelling.

The same thing happened during the referendum vote. Madrid declared it illegal and told people not to vote...so the loyalists stayed away. So only those "pro-independence" voted resulting in "90% in favor of independence". Never mind that only 38% of eligible voters cast a ballot.

It was also intentionally made hard for loyalists to vote as locations for voting were extremely secretive and handed out mainly to people in the know.

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(This post was last modified: 10-27-2017 12:22 PM by Comte De St. Germain.)
10-27-2017 11:31 AM
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Mekorig Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Catalans declare independence from Spain
I still remmeber the girl voting in 4 diferent places, or the video of the already filled ballot box.

"What is important is to try to develop insights and wisdom rather than mere knowledge, respect someone's character rather than his learning, and nurture men of character rather than mere talents." - Inazo Nitobe

When i´m feeling blue, when i just need something to shock me up, i look at this thread and everything get better!

Letters from the battlefront: Argentina
10-27-2017 11:35 AM
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