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GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
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worldwidetraveler Offline
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Post: #151
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-16-2017 11:24 PM)Buck Wild Wrote:  
(12-16-2017 09:04 AM)Libertas Wrote:  These losers couldn't even reduce the brackets from 7 to 3 as they promised.

Probably the most disheartening thing about this whole effort. Tax simplification should have been top priority, rather than re-jiggering the already ridiculously byzantine tax code to royally fuck the upper-middle classes.

If this passes, it's hard to see how the GOP doesn't get destroyed in 2018.

I agree that this isn't the simplicity that I had in mind when they were bragging about the postcard nonsense.

Still, for most people, they will take the standard deduction which has doubled under this plan. It will be simple for them.

The tax for corps was good with the immediate expensing. They made it more difficult by doing some sort of AMT on a territorial tax basis. I honestly don't know how they can claim we are changing to a territorial tax system yet add a minimum tax on worldwide profits. The pass-through companies and the personal side was weak.

This wasn't a major middle class tax cut like they were promising. It was a business tax cut which we did need to help our economy.

I still love that they went after the state and local tax deductions. Those liberal high tax cities can now decide if they really want to pay out of their own pockets to broaden those entitlements they love.

Still, this is much better than what we have now. I think this will keep the economic momentum, that started since Trump got elected, going past next elections.

I think Republicans are looking good for next years elections. Dems have more seats open and will be playing defensive.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2017 02:24 PM by worldwidetraveler.)
12-17-2017 02:20 PM
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porscheguy Offline
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Post: #152
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Tax simplicity is no longer an issue for the vast majority of people any longer. Virtually everyone who files their own taxes does it online. Ever use the modern tax programs? They first establish your identity. The second thing they do is determine the best format for you. Long or short. If you opt for the long form it walks you through it and probably takes 60-90 minutes. The short form can be knocked out in 20-30 or less. The need for tax simplicity comes from the ad departments of groups like H and R Block, and even they don’t want simplicity, they just want consumers to think that taxes are difficult and hire them. People with lots of assets aren’t concerned about complexity because they already have an accountant prepare their taxes. And that complexity leaves loopholes that can be exploited.

The days of “add lines 3,7,and 12, then divide the result by the number you got from multiplying lines 5 and 8” are long gone.

If you find your taxes are too complex, you’re probably one of the four who still goes into the post office to pick up paper forms (and you’re probably wearing a tin foil hat while reading this).
12-17-2017 05:53 PM
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Matt Forney Offline
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Post: #153
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
The final tax reform bill is a good thing so long as it kills the individual mandate. That should be our line in the sand.

Obamacare is the single biggest anchor weighing down the economy right now. Get rid of it and the economy will soar to unbelievable heights.

Without the individual mandate, healthy/young people will dump their healthcare plans, because they'll no longer be penalized on their taxes for not having them. (I've been penalized a ungodly sum every year since Obamacare went into effect for not having healthcare, even though it was literally impossible for me to purchase it due to Illinois' hilariously broken exchange system.) This will cause premiums to skyrocket, forcing all the sick, infirm, and old people to leave the Obamacare system as well.

Ending Obamacare will boost the economy to such a degree that any other possible negative effects of the bill will be completely swamped.

I don't care if the SALT deductions are retained and I don't care if the tuition tax is dropped, though I would obviously love these things because they would economically crush blue states and leftist entities. I don't even care if the corporate tax rate is slashed to 0%, because I'm not a communist who thinks corporations and rich people should be taxed solely for the sake of taxing them.

The individual mandate is the most important part of the bill. Get rid of it and this bill is a win that will aid the GOP next year.

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(This post was last modified: 12-17-2017 06:09 PM by Matt Forney.)
12-17-2017 06:06 PM
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worldwidetraveler Offline
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Post: #154
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-17-2017 05:53 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  Tax simplicity is no longer an issue for the vast majority of people any longer. Virtually everyone who files their own taxes does it online. Ever use the modern tax programs? They first establish your identity. The second thing they do is determine the best format for you. Long or short. If you opt for the long form it walks you through it and probably takes 60-90 minutes. The short form can be knocked out in 20-30 or less. The need for tax simplicity comes from the ad departments of groups like H and R Block, and even they don’t want simplicity, they just want consumers to think that taxes are difficult and hire them. People with lots of assets aren’t concerned about complexity because they already have an accountant prepare their taxes. And that complexity leaves loopholes that can be exploited.

The days of “add lines 3,7,and 12, then divide the result by the number you got from multiplying lines 5 and 8” are long gone.

If you find your taxes are too complex, you’re probably one of the four who still goes into the post office to pick up paper forms (and you’re probably wearing a tin foil hat while reading this).

A lot of people must be running around with tin foil hats...

Quote:Tax filers face the task of understanding IRS instructions in order to comply with paying taxes. According to the IRS, filing taxes will take taxpayers an average of 8 hours and cost $120 for each nonbusiness return. An IRS publication shows nearly 169 million individual tax returns (including all individual tax forms and estimated tax forms) were filed in 2012, costing over $20 billion in compliance costs. This is not the cost of actually paying taxes, but only the cost of filing.

https://taxfoundation.org/cost-tax-compliance/
12-17-2017 07:15 PM
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godzilla Offline
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Post: #155
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
^Good point and that's if everything goes perfectly

Two years ago, my employer pulled taxes from my paycheck to the wrong state. Still trying to get my money back.
12-17-2017 09:03 PM
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Post: #156
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
The House just passed the bill 227-203. The Senate will vote on it later tonight.

These Republican reps voted against it:

•Rep. Dan Donovan, New York
•Rep. John Faso, New York
•Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen, New Jersey
•Rep. Darrell Issa, California
•Rep. Walter Jones, North Carolina
•Rep. Peter King, New York
•Rep. Leonard Lance, New Jersey
•Rep. Frank LoBiondo, New Jersey
•Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, California
•Rep. Christopher Smith, New Jersey
•Rep. Elise Stefanik, New York
•Rep. Lee Zeldin, New York
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2017 03:54 PM by C-Note.)
12-19-2017 03:51 PM
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TravelerKai Offline
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Post: #157
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-19-2017 03:51 PM)C-Note Wrote:  The House just passed the bill 227-203. The Senate will vote on it later tonight.

These Republican reps voted against it:

•Rep. Dan Donovan, New York
•Rep. John Faso, New York
•Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen, New Jersey
•Rep. Darrell Issa, California
•Rep. Walter Jones, North Carolina
•Rep. Peter King, New York
•Rep. Leonard Lance, New Jersey
•Rep. Frank LoBiondo, New Jersey
•Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, California
•Rep. Christopher Smith, New Jersey
•Rep. Elise Stefanik, New York
•Rep. Lee Zeldin, New York

I would not judge them very harshly as if they belong on the traitors list. They have to vote for their own constituents best interests. Everyone knew the coastal blue state guys were not going to vote for this bill no matter what.

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12-19-2017 03:58 PM
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kaotic Offline
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Post: #158
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
California, Jersey, and New York - explains everything you need to know.

Can someone link me the model for the new tax plan ?

I thought someone added a link that you could put your annual income in and a few additional pieces of info.

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12-19-2017 04:23 PM
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Monty_Brogan Offline
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Post: #159
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-19-2017 04:23 PM)kaotic Wrote:  California, Jersey, and New York - explains everything you need to know.

Can someone link me the model for the new tax plan ?

I thought someone added a link that you could put your annual income in and a few additional pieces of info.

http://taxplancalculator.com/
12-19-2017 04:37 PM
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8ball Offline
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Post: #160
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
I think NJ, NY and CA will probably do a last minute Charity - State income tax workaround loophole.

Where residents can "donate" to lets say the state of CA and not pay state income tax and then declare those as charitable on Fed taxes.

Not sure if they can do those for very high salt taxes and we will see if the states themselves will cover some of the costs instead of sticking 100% of it to washington.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2017 05:44 PM by 8ball.)
12-19-2017 05:40 PM
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8ball Offline
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Post: #161
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-19-2017 03:51 PM)C-Note Wrote:  The House just passed the bill 227-203. The Senate will vote on it later tonight.

These Republican reps voted against it:

•Rep. Dan Donovan, New York
•Rep. John Faso, New York
•Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen, New Jersey
•Rep. Darrell Issa, California
•Rep. Walter Jones, North Carolina
•Rep. Peter King, New York
•Rep. Leonard Lance, New Jersey
•Rep. Frank LoBiondo, New Jersey
•Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, California
•Rep. Christopher Smith, New Jersey
•Rep. Elise Stefanik, New York
•Rep. Lee Zeldin, New York

Not sure how many of these are up for reelection in Nov, the repubs cannot afford to loose the house or senate. It would be bad news for Trump. So these votes are fine as long as they get too continue to keep their seats.


Hopefully this tax bill will be enough to overturn seats in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio where the salaries are low and salt taxes even lower. They will benefit the most from this.
12-19-2017 05:43 PM
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Post: #162
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Apparently the bill will go to a Senate vote tonight, but then needs to go back to the House Wednesday morning because two minor provisions in the legislation don't comply with the Byrd Rule. President Trump will likely sign it by Wednesday afternoon.

Livestream of the Senate debate:


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(This post was last modified: 12-19-2017 06:07 PM by HighSpeed_LowDrag.)
12-19-2017 05:58 PM
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Wutang Offline
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Post: #163
RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Plan just passed senate. 51-48
12-20-2017 12:52 AM
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Turnus Offline
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Merry Christmas America!
12-20-2017 03:39 PM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Individual mandate is gone! Icon_biggrin
12-20-2017 10:29 PM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
When does it take effect?

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12-21-2017 08:46 AM
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Duke Castile Offline
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
So was Higgs Bosun mistaken?

We were meant for far more than to suffer in our self created prisons only to die alone. It doesn't have to be that way. It never did.
12-21-2017 02:48 PM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
(12-21-2017 08:46 AM)MOVSM Wrote:  When does it take effect?

For the typical tax filler, it will apply to income earned in 2018. If you use one of the new standard deductions, it would be very easy to figure out how much your employer should withhold.
12-21-2017 04:11 PM
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CleanSlate Offline
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
What’s the reform’s language for FEIE and expats?

I cannot find it anywhere.
12-24-2017 03:28 AM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
   

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12-24-2017 10:11 AM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Anyone else see that tons of companies like Wells Fargo and Comcast are putting out bonuses and raising their hiring wages? Looked like nearly 1 million workers will benefit from this...

I have not heard a peep about this from the mainstream media.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/this-is-...nding.html
12-26-2017 05:04 PM
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RE: GOP Tax Plan 2017-18
Well, well, looks like this thread has gotten off to a start, but definitely not as robust as I was hoping. No one's fault but it's kind of funny that we would rather focus on politics that do not affect us much rather than a tax policy that will affect most of us. Just interesting. Anyways, I will be more active and provide analysis as I read more into the plan in this thread.

Caveat emptor: For those that think I'm some type of tax law expert, that I am ABSOLUTELY not. I am a licensed CPA but did not practice tax preparation in any way except for a few family members, friends and couple random customers. That said, I understand key components of the tax law very well. On top of that, I understand financial statements and key components of revenue and cost extremely well. Let's get something straight, however. Tax law is "regulatory" by nature and Financial Health is "natural" for the most part. To understand the effects of the code, you have to separate the two and understand how one affects the other. For example, alimony doesn't affect everyone, the same as the standard deduction may affect most. Hence, the code and its changes affect everyone in different ways, including companies. That's a fact.

However, then we get into the political nature of the changes in the code, whether liberal or conservative. This is where the arguments really start and end for you and me. These arguments are about a broader case of social justice and income equality, rather than the changes in the tax code, its effect on individuals and furthermore, the effect on financial health of companies and small businesses. In arguments with liberals, if you separate these, they will not have a place to argue.

Without going into detail, I will post my response to a liberal on facebook.

Libtard's last argument
Quote:the wealthiest 400 taxpayers pay tax rates less than 20% because their income is currently considered investment and because of that they also hardly pay payroll taxes. A worker who is bringing in a higher than average salary will get taxed at a much higher rate than the ultra wealthy taxpayer - because it’s not investment income like theirs.
I’m referring to tax percentages and mostly talking about the 1% -2% that are ultra wealthy compared to salaried higher and medium income individuals.

So yes I agree that the wealthy pay a huge chunk of the federal tax revenue, because we are talking percentages, but their percentage is dramatically lower than that of other high income people due to capital gains tax and other deductions.

Now with Trump’s tax plan they will save even more money. That’s the issue, and I still disagree with you that this money will be infused back into the economy because historically that has not happened. Once again trickle down economics is a hoax. We saw this theory in history fail many times like in 2001 and 2003 when Bush lowered top tier income taxes and capital gains, and even though conservatives predicted an economic boom instead the economy barely grew and soon collapsed.

What I then said
Quote:I haven't had a chance to reply due to the Christmas holiday! Hope you enjoyed it and spent quaity time with loved ones! Getting back to the debate...

I think at least we are in agreement that the wealthy pay the largest chunk of tax revenue. However, yes they have passive income which by its nature is taxed differently since it's incentivized. There's no way around that. Here's something else there is no way around: income inequality. Due to the nature of our economy, there will always be income disparity period. Those that work harder will make more money. As they pay more money, they will pay more taxes. In order to have a meaningful debate with liberals, I have never been able to separate income inequality (which is a natural function of the economy) from tax inequality (which is regulated). My view is this: the tax code is there to run the government and incentivize investments and grow the economy. It is not there as a social welfare tool, which liberals nonchalantly believe it is. We have other programs for that.

Also, as far as trickle down economics and how it's a hoax. I don't think you can legitimately prove its a hoax aside from article headlines which show nothing but a neutral view of the subject when you read the underlying content. Similarly, I cannot sit here and tell you that trickle down economics is great. Reason being, that the economy every president has inherited has been different. Not only that, in addition to tax policy, there has been monetary policy (eg. interest rates) that have affected the end result somewhat. As far as Bush, in 2001 his cuts stimulated the economy after the 2001 recession. People kept more money in their pockets because of it even though the public debt increased. The 2003 business tax cuts were necessary due to the economic uncertainty created by 9/11. Economy grew 3.8% (very robust) in 2004 because of it. The 2008 tax rebate though was not totally realized because the economy crashed by the time the checks came out. The economic crash was not as much a result of tax or monetary policy as it was due to greed on Wall Street and smart people trying to beat the system. So again, without looking into the actual reasons for collapse of the economy you are conflating theory with fact.

In almost every scenario including Bush as I outlined above, there has been more money in the hands of people and growth in the economy. However, public debt has always increased. That's a whole another debate from the question of economic growth. Do you want more economic growth or less public debt? I'm not sure economists can figure out the answer clearly base on a number of factors. I'm neither an expert nor an oracle to guess how.

So yes, the wealthy will save some money but honestly so will the middle class. If you're saying only the middle class should save more money, it's a bit ridiculous because you're essentially putting restrictions on incentives to reach the American dream, reducing entrepreneurship and establishing social welfare platforms rather than meaningful policy. So the choice is to put more money in the hands of those that work the hardest OR take that away to increase social welfare. That is a meaningful debate but we need to be logical and honest as to how much it benefits us a whole on either side. We don't better the economy by spending, we grow it by generating more wealth to be distributed to those who work hard. That's why this country is what it is. Remember, we have only so many resources; the way we use them has been challenging for every president. We can really cut off the head to save the body.

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12-26-2017 08:26 PM
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