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Should you feel bad about cheating?
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Savonarola Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-12-2019 06:49 PM)Danteschall Wrote:  Bull Utter crap. Cheating says you are not some who can be trusted to honor your word.

And I have been married. If I discover a dude who is a friend is a serial cheater I dump them as a friend. If you can't keep your word to the woman you supposedly love how the fuck can I trust you to keep your word with me!

I'm getting a distinct girl vibe here.
02-12-2019 07:28 PM
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RatInTheWoods Offline
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Post: #152
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-12-2019 05:11 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  So you've made it pretty far without learning the most basic fact of life -- that marriage is almost always accompanied by reduced amount of sex. This is an eternal truth. It's been the same way since the dawn of marriage.

I know its a well worn troupe, and true for most people, but like I said, I had more pussy than I wanted in my marriage. Not because I excel at game, but because I picked the right woman and knew enough game.

But I acknowledge most married betas don't get enough pussy.

I still think they should learn game or leave, not betray their marriage vows however.

(02-12-2019 05:11 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  A basic reading of evo psych will teach you that humans are not strictly monogamous. Neither are we polygamous. We're in between, depending on a host of different factors.

You can acknowledge this. Or you can keep slinging the tradcon bullshit of "harumph harumph men these days don't know how to be moral".

Humans do pair pond according to evo psych. Because we have extremely long parenting periods required by our neotenous children. To succeed and ensure offspring and genes survive, males get involved in pair bonding with mother and child as a result.

I think men pair bond stronger than women, especially focused on being faithful, as we understand the cost of cuckolding. The rational male has a few essays on "men love idealistically women love opportunistically" you should read.

So male being moral is both red pill, and evo psych.

The idea of being a better man, having virtue and principles is a very strong new masculinity theme and pretty red pill from my readings.
02-14-2019 12:42 AM
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RatInTheWoods Offline
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Post: #153
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-12-2019 06:49 PM)Danteschall Wrote:  If I discover a dude who is a friend is a serial cheater I dump them as a friend. If you can't keep your word to the woman you supposedly love how the fuck can I trust you to keep your word with me!

+1 for this, me too.

none of my friends would respect or stay friends with me if I was banging around within a marriage, or serious LTR, and that cuts both ways.

I don't have friends who don't keep their word, or their promises.
02-14-2019 12:44 AM
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quaker13 Offline
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Post: #154
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-12-2019 06:49 PM)Danteschall Wrote:  
(02-12-2019 12:13 AM)Savonarola Wrote:  
(02-11-2019 03:57 PM)hoosierdaddy Wrote:  I know it's not a popular opinion on here, but it's straightforward and simple concept. Why be with someone if you're not happy/pulling pussy anyway?

I'm guessing you've never been in an LTR. Only people who've never been married/shacked up think it's really that simple.

It's NOT that simple.

You can be fairly happy with a woman AND experience declining sexual attraction to her (and her to you). It doesn't mean the relationship isn't good in other areas. And LTRs/marriage are often full of binding things like co-owned automobiles and co-owned houses and co-owned kids that make it damn tough to leave anyways.

Plus, it's often hard to see the line at which you should end the relationship. There's often no objective point of reference.

In these cases, it's better to get a piece on the side and preserve the relationship as a partnership. There's always a chance the sexual attraction could rebound.


Bull Utter crap. Cheating says you are not some who can be trusted to honor your word.

And I have been married. If I discover a dude who is a friend is a serial cheater I dump them as a friend. If you can't keep your word to the woman you supposedly love how the fuck can I trust you to keep your word with me!

The two are not analogous. It's a shame you can't see that, but I respect your opinion.
02-14-2019 10:20 AM
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heavy Offline
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Post: #155
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
This is a great discussion. In my younger days I would have said this is a black and white issue. In my older days (post-divorce, post being in a relationship where I wasn't getting laid because I didn't have much of a life outside of my marriage, post knowing alpha player types who have young kids), I see there's far more nuance.

(02-11-2019 03:27 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  A lot of hamstering in here to justify a lack of moral behavior.

"a woman treated me bad once therefore I don't have to behave with any values for the rest of my life"

"men need to lie, cheat and bang around because we have testicles"

"My woman secretly loves how I lie, cheat, break my marriage oath and fuck young girls behind her back"

Its not about if she finds out, its not about if you get away with it, and its not about a few seconds of pleasure inside a fold of a strangers skin.

Do you not look in the mirror at the guy staring back at you and feel ashamed that you lie, cheat and are dishonest?

First comment:

I'm curious what you would say to men who have young children who are not getting laid. These are alpha player types, guys who are solicited by young hot 20 somethings, who don't cheat on their wives. God-fearing, honest men who love their wives and would never want to break apart their family. But they are not getting laid. What little sexual attention they do get is apathetic appeasement.

Let's even say these are honest and upstanding men, enough to have the tough talks with their wives, and their wives simply have no sex drive at the moment. For years.

What then?

Do you tell a fine, upstanding, testosterone-filled husband and father to remain celibate lying next to his hot wife every night?

I understand there are factors not mentioned above, and I understand this may not be the most common occurrence, but it's not far off from the reality many men face.

------

Second comment:

I'm not sure how much the following advice would speak to the situation above, but I would offer this to my former married self:

If I were to go back in time 10 years and offer advice to married me, my advice would include (among many pieces of advice) going out and trying to pick up chicks. Get better at flirting. Not with your wife, you stupid, young, immature 25 year old idiot who has no idea what turns a woman on. Go try hitting on / picking up that hot 21 year old chick in the bar. Don't bull-shit yourself "oh I'm married, I don't need to validate myself by attracting her". Bull-fucking-shit. You're scared, and you think marriage is a solid piece of midwest maple, but it's not, it's a thin veneer covering some shitty pine.

Oh by the way, I wouldn't advise lying to my wife or other women. And I wouldn't advise banging random bitches. I would definitely not advise myself to fall in love with another woman. Just go see if you still got it with other chicks.

Why would I advise this? You can't just tell a guy not to cheat forever. A man's sex drive is a pressure cooker, especially in a relationship as in the two scenarios above. If he's not being satiated, it will explode eventually. For many men, God forbid, they end up cheating on their wives, falling in love other women, and the marriage falls apart. For me, it meant snapping emotionally and in an instant (about 20 minutes) going from "what's going on why doesn't she love me" to indifferent apathy to her.

There is a level of self-honesty and insight required for both scenarios, before the pressure cooker ruins the relationship.

There is a lot of gray between the black and white.

=====

I should note, I wouldn't advise cheating. To me that's relationship suicide for most guys, since most guys could never pull it off (if you have to ask how, you aren't cut out for it). It's just not good. It seems you should exhaust every other honest effort before crossing that bridge.

I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives. I come from a very traditional perspective of marriage. I advise someone do everything they can to avoid divorce. I'm just saying, the older I get, the more gray I see.

"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help"

"If you actually think that garbage ass women on Tinder not swiping on you means that you're a loser in real life, you're probably stupid enough to actually be a loser in real life." - tugofpeace
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 11:17 AM by heavy.)
02-14-2019 11:01 AM
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Montrose Offline
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Post: #156
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
The idea that men should be sexually exclusive to one woman is fairly recent historically. Traditionally, a married woman having sex with someone other than her husband was considered extremely bad because of the risk of illegitimate birth, causing prejudice to the legitimate husband. There were no such stigma on men. For example the statutes of Minnesota (still valid today) specify that adultery is a felony, BUT ONLY IF A MARRIED WOMAN is involved. The situation of the man is irrelevant. (Minnesota statutes 609.36)

It’s only since the last century or so that men have been thoroughly brainwashed by the feminine imperative into thinking that they must fuck only one woman. Sad!
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 11:45 AM by Montrose.)
02-14-2019 11:19 AM
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quaker13 Offline
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Post: #157
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 11:19 AM)Montrose Wrote:  The idea that men should be sexually exclusive to one woman is fairly recent historically. Traditionally, a married woman having sex with someone other than her husband was considered extremely bad because of the risk of illegitimate birth, causing prejudice to the legitimate husband. There were no such stigma on men. For example the statutes of Minnesota (still valid today) specify that adultery is a felony, BUT ONLY IF A MARRIED WOMAN is involved. The situation of the man is irrelevant. (Minnesota statutes 609.36)

It’s only since the last century or so that men have been thoroughly brainwashed by the feminine imperative into thinking that they must fuck only one woman. Sad!

and unfortunately evidence of this brainwashing is rife on this forum. so much so, good men are demonized by their peers for extra or inter marital affairs
02-14-2019 01:37 PM
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #158
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
Although I view men cheating vs women cheating as completely different. I still say cheating, in general, is "wrong".

Having a harem with a main chick who you respect 100% and give a better life to is different than a LTR which you gave your trust to. Its best to live the player life and form relationships with women, rather than just be a cheater who makes a woman life worse.
02-14-2019 02:22 PM
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Savonarola Offline
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Post: #159
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives.

Are you sure of that?
02-14-2019 02:37 PM
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Savonarola Offline
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Post: #160
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 01:37 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:19 AM)Montrose Wrote:  The idea that men should be sexually exclusive to one woman is fairly recent historically. Traditionally, a married woman having sex with someone other than her husband was considered extremely bad because of the risk of illegitimate birth, causing prejudice to the legitimate husband. There were no such stigma on men. For example the statutes of Minnesota (still valid today) specify that adultery is a felony, BUT ONLY IF A MARRIED WOMAN is involved. The situation of the man is irrelevant. (Minnesota statutes 609.36)

It’s only since the last century or so that men have been thoroughly brainwashed by the feminine imperative into thinking that they must fuck only one woman. Sad!

and unfortunately evidence of this brainwashing is rife on this forum. so much so, good men are demonized by their peers for extra or inter marital affairs

And literally every culture on earth has a tradition of side girls for married men of some stature. They all have the vocabulary to describe it.
02-14-2019 02:41 PM
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quaker13 Offline
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Post: #161
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 02:22 PM)Donfitz007 Wrote:  Although I view men cheating vs women cheating as completely different. I still say cheating, in general, is "wrong".

Having a harem with a main chick who you respect 100% and give a better life to is different than a LTR which you gave your trust to. Its best to live the player life and form relationships with women, rather than just be a cheater who makes a woman life worse.

Your premise is based on the woman finding out. I'd contend that's not how most "cheaters" operate.
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 03:22 PM by quaker13.)
02-14-2019 02:41 PM
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heavy Offline
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Post: #162
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 02:37 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives.

Are you sure of that?

My entire post, that's the statement you want to apply your focus?

No, of course I'm not sure of it.

(It's funny, because as I typed that I thought, some member is going to focus on this little snippet at the end where, after I lay out a few solid paragraphs on the case for nuance regarding infidelity, I afford the reader my personal perspective for some reference point. It's these moments I realize this is still just an internet forum. While it is a great internet forum which I love (really the only one to which I'm a part), it's still just a forum where members just want to be contrarian sometimes.)

"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help"

"If you actually think that garbage ass women on Tinder not swiping on you means that you're a loser in real life, you're probably stupid enough to actually be a loser in real life." - tugofpeace
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 03:14 PM by heavy.)
02-14-2019 03:13 PM
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B-Minus Offline
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Post: #163
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
cheating is for pussies. Just hit some chest for crying out loud. You want excitement? I get hard at the thought taking those 180's for a ride on the incline.

"Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you"
02-14-2019 03:19 PM
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quaker13 Offline
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Post: #164
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 03:13 PM)heavy Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 02:37 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives.

Are you sure of that?

My entire post, that's the statement you want to apply your focus?

No, of course I'm not sure of it.

(It's funny, because as I typed that I thought, some member is going to focus on this little snippet at the end where, after I lay out a few solid paragraphs on the case for nuance regarding infidelity, I afford the reader my personal perspective for some reference point. It's these moments I realize this is still just an internet forum. While it is a great internet forum which I love (really the only one to which I'm a part), it's still just a forum where members just want to be contrarian sometimes.)

Would you terminate a close relationship with a friend of 20 years if you found out he was a serial cheater? If so, why?
02-14-2019 03:25 PM
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RatInTheWoods Offline
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Post: #165
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I'm curious what you would say to men who have young children who are not getting laid. These are alpha player types, guys who are solicited by young hot 20 somethings, who don't cheat on their wives. God-fearing, honest men who love their wives and would never want to break apart their family. But they are not getting laid. What little sexual attention they do get is apathetic appeasement.


In the scenario above:

1) if she pretended to be interested sexually but stops after marriage is secured, and isn't just going through a "rough patch" with a torn vag and no sleep directly after children

2) if she doesn't make an effort to at least "take care of hubby" in the absence of her own interest

3) if you have discussed the issue and she doesn't care about solving it

4) You are both deeply unhappy about the situation and have toughed it out for a few years and its not getting better

5) You are not fat, obnoxious, unloving and the cause of the problem

Then it's time to end the marriage and find a woman that loves you.

This issue is a very real issue, and its caused by the female duel sexual strategy of bait a provider beta and retire sexually while he pays the bills. Its the same story in the "dead bedrooms" forums the world over.

I don't think cheating on her is the answer. I think even if she is the problem, it doesn't justify you abandoning your morals as "the solution".

The real root cause is you are with a woman that doesn't love you, so the right thing to do is find a woman that does.
Life is too short to spend with a women that doesn't love you, doesn't want to bang you.
Life is too short to spend sneaking around compromising your values to get a bit of pussy so you can keep living with this woman that doesn't love you.
Life is great when you have a woman that wants to bang you and you can look at yourself in the mirror with pride.

I think this scenario (along with the other hamster rationalisations in this thread) are all just excuses for people with no morals and values to justify their behavior.

The above scenario is also a good reason why men shouldn't get married - another well advertised red pill advice - because it leads to getting trapped as above.
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 03:37 PM by RatInTheWoods.)
02-14-2019 03:32 PM
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quaker13 Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 03:32 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I'm curious what you would say to men who have young children who are not getting laid. These are alpha player types, guys who are solicited by young hot 20 somethings, who don't cheat on their wives. God-fearing, honest men who love their wives and would never want to break apart their family. But they are not getting laid. What little sexual attention they do get is apathetic appeasement.


In the scenario above:

1) if she pretended to be interested sexually but stops after marriage is secured, and isn't just going through a "rough patch" with a torn vag and no sleep directly after children

2) if she doesn't make an effort to at least "take care of hubby" in the absence of her own interest

3) if you have discussed the issue and she doesn't care about solving it

4) You are both deeply unhappy about the situation and have toughed it out for a few years and its not getting better

5) You are not fat, obnoxious, unloving and the cause of the problem

Then it's time to end the marriage and find a woman that loves you.

This issue is a very real issue, and its caused by the female duel sexual strategy of bait a provider beta and retire sexually while he pays the bills. Its the same story in the "dead bedrooms" forums the world over.

I don't think cheating on her is the answer. I think even if she is the problem, it doesn't justify you abandoning your morals as "the solution".

The real root cause is you are with a woman that doesn't love you, so the right thing to do is find a woman that does.

I think this scenario (along with the other hamster rationalisations in this thread) are all just excuses for people with no morals and values to justify their behavior.

The above scenario is also a good reason why men shouldn't get married - another well advertised red pill advice - because it leads to getting trapped as above.

The term "morals" is thrown around rather loosely as it relates to this matter. It has already been pointed out by one poster that the "morals" you speak of have only been around for a few hundred years. This isn't evolution based morality, this is modernistic religion based morality of which many posters don't subscribe.
02-14-2019 03:35 PM
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Savonarola
Savonarola Offline
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Post: #167
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 03:32 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  I think this scenario (along with the other hamster rationalisations in this thread) are all just excuses for people with no morals and values to justify their behavior.

You keep using this word "morals". It doesn't mean what you think it means.
02-14-2019 03:46 PM
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Savonarola Offline
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Post: #168
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 03:13 PM)heavy Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 02:37 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives.

Are you sure of that?

My entire post, that's the statement you want to apply your focus?

No, of course I'm not sure of it.

(It's funny, because as I typed that I thought, some member is going to focus on this little snippet at the end where, after I lay out a few solid paragraphs on the case for nuance regarding infidelity, I afford the reader my personal perspective for some reference point. It's these moments I realize this is still just an internet forum. While it is a great internet forum which I love (really the only one to which I'm a part), it's still just a forum where members just want to be contrarian sometimes.)

It was a good post, you're thoughtful.
I'm making the point that a lot of us don't talk about our extracurriculars with other men ... because of EXACTLY the attitude you showed above.
In my life, not one person on earth knows about my side girl. And yet people consider me exceptionally trustworthy. Which I am.
02-14-2019 03:51 PM
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Post: #169
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
(02-14-2019 03:25 PM)quaker13 Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 03:13 PM)heavy Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 02:37 PM)Savonarola Wrote:  
(02-14-2019 11:01 AM)heavy Wrote:  I don't hang around guys who cheat on their wives.

Are you sure of that?

My entire post, that's the statement you want to apply your focus?

No, of course I'm not sure of it.

(It's funny, because as I typed that I thought, some member is going to focus on this little snippet at the end where, after I lay out a few solid paragraphs on the case for nuance regarding infidelity, I afford the reader my personal perspective for some reference point. It's these moments I realize this is still just an internet forum. While it is a great internet forum which I love (really the only one to which I'm a part), it's still just a forum where members just want to be contrarian sometimes.)

Would you terminate a close relationship with a friend of 20 years if you found out he was a serial cheater? If so, why?

No. A close friend would have to do something pretty egregious for me to cut ties with him (like he's been lying and portraying a deception to me). I'd probably be the guy someone would talk to, because I'd be one of the few left standing. The nuance is, I don't necessarily think all the other guys who defriended him were wrong, they just have different personalities.

The joke I always say is, "This city / social group would be great if it weren't for all the people in it" (get it?)

I think people are dumb for defriending guys because of dumb shit like this (no doubt men are defriended for even more benign stuff like politics), but there is a point to maintain some sort of social standing, even if you agree with Kramer:



They're PRISONS, Jerry
You know what you do at dinner? You talk about your day!


RatInTheWoods, I'm not privy to all those details, as you'd imagine (it's not currently me in the sexless marriage). But when I got to the bottom of your post, it pretty much explains your position...men shouldn't get married.

"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help"

"If you actually think that garbage ass women on Tinder not swiping on you means that you're a loser in real life, you're probably stupid enough to actually be a loser in real life." - tugofpeace
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2019 04:42 PM by heavy.)
02-14-2019 04:37 PM
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #170
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
Morality is one of those things where most people don't care UNLESS there is punishment. However, I don't condone cheating because you gave your wife/woman your trust. Yes she might not find out but you still did something behind her back. Plus the fact you could bring back some std or unwanted children.

To me this is like the abortion argument. Many people have strong decisions until they get put on the spot. I've seen some die-hard pro-choice people stop the procedure because they couldn't do it. I've also seen plenty of pro-life people get an abortion without even trying.

I've seen so many people say cheating is wrong while having multiple partners, and others say cheating is ok but couldn't cheat on their partner even presented the opportunity.

Bottomline is cheating is wrong, but different scenarios make the line a little blurry.

With all that said I've never cheated. Also my opinion might be retarded but it's how I think, this is nowhere near law.
02-14-2019 08:53 PM
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lavidaloca Offline
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Post: #171
RE: Should you feel bad about cheating?
The first time you cheat its the toughest. With each time after progressively easier until its just like having sex normally. By the 4th or 5th time it doesn't really phase you that much from my experience.

Depends on the scenario as to whether you should feel bad cheating.
02-15-2019 03:39 AM
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