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Poll: What is the no. 1 reason for declining SMV in The West?
Girls overestimating their SMV due to apps/online
Girls jaded by fuck boys
Corporate feminism
Cultural Marxism in general
Entitlement
Low attention spans
Denigration of masculinity
Something else (post in thread)
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No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #151
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
I agree with Rhyme or Reason, we shouldn't dwell in analysis but rather focus on action.

Want women?

1. Acquire game
2. Acquire fuck you money
3. Get in shape
11-13-2018 09:38 AM
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zamfir112 Offline
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Post: #152
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
the money part is the hardest. you cannot just become a millionaire overnight.thats why only a very small precentage of the worlds population are rich.
11-13-2018 12:07 PM
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Post: #153
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Is this going to turn into a money vs game thread

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11-13-2018 04:14 PM
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kaotic Offline
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Post: #154
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
(11-13-2018 04:14 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Is this going to turn into a money vs game thread

I was hoping it'd turn into an Appetizers 2.0 thread.

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11-13-2018 04:32 PM
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Post: #155
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Hahahaha

Or working out doesn't matter.

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11-13-2018 04:33 PM
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #156
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Sadly I wasn't saying you needed all 3. I hope this doesn't turn into a debate
11-13-2018 06:21 PM
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Post: #157
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
>>How many times are we going to cover the same tired old ground? What information in this thread is beneficial to the reader? Are we a group of doers or over analytical wankers?

If the underlying cause is unique to the developed western countries, then we need to know that, because then the solution is simple: move someplace else. In particular, if the welfare state is the underlying problem, there is no welfare state in poor countries and won't be for the foreseeable future. Provider game works that there now will continue to work.

By contrast, if smartphones are the problem, poor countries are no refuge.

The Philippines is a fine case study of western men's SMV plummeting in recent years, at least according to the various Philippines threads in the travel forum. But that plummeting SMV probably only applies to some men, the men running what Roosh calls clown game: hot tourist guy offering adventure sex to bored young girls. Smartphones eliminate boredom in girls and thus destroy the value of clown game. Whereas older guys playing what Roosh calls provider game with desperate single mothers should be unaffected by smartphones and their SMV should be as high as ever.
11-13-2018 10:23 PM
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Delta Offline
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Post: #158
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
I think I've got this issue pretty well fleshed out. I'd point to four major causes that explain the dating market crisis we're in today.

First, the two that are often correctly identified on here:

1. Overweightness*. An overweight population diminishes the supply of attractive women far more than the supply of attractive men. Big dudes can be, and often are, considered attractive. For some guys, their size is part of their appeal (football players, bodybuilders), and others are able to succeed in spite of their fatness (rich guys, guys with great faces/style/charisma/game). Big girls, on the other hand, are automatically undesirable to most men.
*I refuse to call it "obesity." It leads people who are merely overweight to believe they're not part of the problem.

2. Casual sex. If everyone pairs off 1-to-1, each individual should be able to land someone of similar value. But when casual sex is normalized and top guys build up rotations of multiple girls, that skews the ratio of people left on the market and forces regular men to date down (or not at all). Not only that, as I argue here, women who were EVER in higher value guys' rotations are often damaged goods, even if they aren't currently fucking anyone.

And now the two that are usually missed:

3. Older average marriage age. An older average marriage age means older people on the singles market. And just like an overweight dating market, an older dating market diminishes the viability of the women much more than that of the men. Think of it this way: In the old days, girls in their 20's were pursued almost exclusively by men in their 20's, because men in their 30's were nearly all paired off. Nowadays, girls in their 20's are pursued viably by men in their 20's AND the glut of single men in their 30's, who have little interest in the same-aged women whose value has depreciated to near zero. This effect exacerbates ratios that were skewed to begin with for people in their 20's.

4. It's all self-reinforcing. A skewed dating market means men have to try harder and women have to try less. Which sex do you see putting in serious effort at the gym? Which sex do you see taking supplements (and sometimes illegal substances) to help build an attractive body? Which sex do you see obsessing over what behavior patterns attract the opposite sex? Which sex do you see trying to optimize their clothing and style to attract the opposite sex? (Women may be more into fashion and style, but for them it's about crafting an image, not appealing to men.) Which sex do you see putting in effort to meet more people of the opposite sex, be it at bars, clubs, singles events, online dating, or on the street?

This effort gap skews the dating market even further, which necessitates an even larger effort gap, which skews the dating market even further... you see where this is headed. It's a feedback loop. And eventually, it reaches a singularity where overcoming the horribly skewed dating market becomes a virtually mandatory skill for men to spend hundreds of hours perfecting, while women's version of "game" is expressing their love for pizza and telling men to fuck off if they're not into dogs.
11-14-2018 08:13 PM
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Jaxon Offline
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Post: #159
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
^No offense Delta, but I personally feel like a lot of guys in the manosphere/on the internet overstate how hypergamous most women really are.

I'm a young guy in my early twenties. I've put a good amount of effort into my fitness and game over the years, but all in all, I'm not some dark triad chad. I've been in a great relationship for two years with an attractive girl who loves me. Most of my friends either are or have been in a similar situation. We're all relatively normal guys with normal lives. I have a high notch count as a result of discovering game in my mid teens, but most of my friends don't. Regardless, very few people in my social circle are completely luckless with women.

This applies to guys all over the place. In college, I'd routinely see hot girls with relatively average guys. Even at my workplace, most of my coworkers -- also relatively average people -- are either dating or are married to cute girls.

In the realm of pure casual sex, women obviously have an advantage, but we're not living in some hypergamous nightmare by any means.

Similarly, I realized that a lot of the girls I had in my "rotations" weren't necessarily damaged, hypergamous, or particularly bad people at all. I just wasn't actually that into them and didn't feel a deeper connection beyond sex. Deep down, I wanted a relationship, and kept getting disappointed when these "hypergamous, cold-hearted women" ghosted me -- either to bang someone else or to date a guy they actually liked. I think a lot of people mistake their lack of compatibility with women for a massive social issue.

There's a lot of doom and gloom in the game/manosphere community. Honestly, I feel like gurus like RSD created these ideas just to make game seem like more of a necessity and therefore sell more shit. I think it's true that 20% of all guys are banging 80% of all girls in terms of pure casual sex, but the ratio is a lot more equitable when it comes to actual relationships.
11-14-2018 08:52 PM
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BlueMark Online
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Post: #160
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Great post by Delta. Here's an excerpt from one of his previous posts that he linked, that I think is worth reading again:
Delta Wrote:The idea that:
-Lifelong monogamous love is not the natural tendency of humans
-Like a prisoner's dilemma, it requires sacrifice on both sides that is ultimately beneficial to both sides
-It must be socially enforced to be the norm
-If it is not socially enforced, the societal consequences are disastrous
-Its social enforcement in our society is waning, the disastrous consequences have already begun, and they are going to get much worse.

...

The prisoner's dilemma has played out. In 2018, both genders have chosen "betray"; trying to have it all, and as a result, receiving nothing. The results aren't pretty, and they will not be getting prettier any time soon. I used to believe society was ever-improving. Now I see that the more accurate statement is technology is ever-improving. Human happiness certainly is not improving, and I believe that's all driven by our abandonment of enforcing monogamy from a young age.

However, I somewhat disagree with the bolded statement. That seems like apex fallacy to say that men have chosen the betrayal option. Some men have indeed become players. But most men I know still have chosen the proper life path, working hard in their 20s and settling down with less than optimal women, sometimes older than themselves.

Back in my suburban hometown, most of the productive young men I knew were content with the quiet life. It was the girls who were bored and moved to the city, even when there were jobs in the suburbs. I have no doubt that if more girls had stayed, fewer young men would have felt the need to move to the city.

Caveat: I come from a high-achieving upper middle class demographic/area, so my perception of the dating market is not necessarily representative of the USA or Anglosphere as a whole.
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2018 09:10 PM by BlueMark.)
11-14-2018 08:59 PM
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Kid Twist Offline
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Post: #161
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
I wonder how much worse Jonathan Soma's data looks now ... that was from 2012, Delta. Breathtakingly awful at that time. Again, please read my siggie below. Idea

Get your passport ready!
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2018 10:37 PM by Kid Twist.)
11-14-2018 10:36 PM
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a beer is enough Offline
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Post: #162
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
(11-13-2018 09:38 AM)Donfitz007 Wrote:  I agree with Rhyme or Reason, we shouldn't dwell in analysis but rather focus on action.

Want women?

1. Acquire game
2. Acquire fuck you money
3. Get in shape

You don't get it, that takes actual work and actually doing something to make that happen.

1. Game means not just going out talking to random women you don't know but it has so many aspects to it. Online game means having good photos which reflect a life she would care enough to be a part of. Night game means going out to those evil bars and nightclubs with those hedonists running around, if only those fools would read philosophy on their spare time. Day game means getting away from your usual habits and actually talking to women, its too much.

You might even have to think outside the box and get creative here but at that point you're just putting pussy on the pedestal.

2. Money takes hard work too, it takes working in a job that pays well even if it doesn't mentally interest you. It means, dare I say, working long hours which is so not cool because you are potentially working for the man. It means taking risks that can pay off, fuck that!

3. Getting in shape means conforming to what society wants instead of being a guy that is actually in shape. It means actually looking good so people see you in a better way which means you care about how people see you. Fuck that too!

Now how many men in this day age and are even willing to work on any of that? Very few to be honest. Most modern men find it more comforting to point fingers and take the easy way out. They cope by trying to act high and mighty towards the idea of sex and relationships, come off as above it all and enlightened in order to preserve their ego.

So fuck all that shit, lets just talk about how awful women are, how much society sucks, how millennials or boomers (take your pick) made shit go haywire and protect our egos.
11-14-2018 11:34 PM
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Kieran Offline
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Post: #163
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
(11-14-2018 08:52 PM)Jaxon Wrote:  ^No offense Delta, but I personally feel like a lot of guys in the manosphere/on the internet overstate how hypergamous most women really are.

I'm a young guy in my early twenties. I've put a good amount of effort into my fitness and game over the years, but all in all, I'm not some dark triad chad. I've been in a great relationship for two years with an attractive girl who loves me. Most of my friends either are or have been in a similar situation. We're all relatively normal guys with normal lives. I have a high notch count as a result of discovering game in my mid teens, but most of my friends don't. Regardless, very few people in my social circle are completely luckless with women.

This applies to guys all over the place. In college, I'd routinely see hot girls with relatively average guys. Even at my workplace, most of my coworkers -- also relatively average people -- are either dating or are married to cute girls.

In the realm of pure casual sex, women obviously have an advantage, but we're not living in some hypergamous nightmare by any means.

Similarly, I realized that a lot of the girls I had in my "rotations" weren't necessarily damaged, hypergamous, or particularly bad people at all. I just wasn't actually that into them and didn't feel a deeper connection beyond sex. Deep down, I wanted a relationship, and kept getting disappointed when these "hypergamous, cold-hearted women" ghosted me -- either to bang someone else or to date a guy they actually liked. I think a lot of people mistake their lack of compatibility with women for a massive social issue.

There's a lot of doom and gloom in the game/manosphere community. Honestly, I feel like gurus like RSD created these ideas just to make game seem like more of a necessity and therefore sell more shit. I think it's true that 20% of all guys are banging 80% of all girls in terms of pure casual sex, but the ratio is a lot more equitable when it comes to actual relationships.

I agree. It really isn't that bad out there. The idea that 20% of men are banging 80% of the women is probably somewhat true, but it's not because women are so hypergamous that they'll only fuck ripped millionaires, but rather that only 20% of men are actually really putting themselves out there and taking any real significant action.

It's probably the same small percentage of men that can actually execute in other areas of their lives too which widens the gap between them and the average man even more. For example most men I work with are soft and don't even have the discipline not to sit around eating cakes and biscuits all day, and I work in a very masculine profession where physical fitness and bravery is important.
11-15-2018 05:40 AM
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Post: #164
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Oveckin,

Not judging here but the story of a surgeon’s son who came from a model Irish family who is forced to frequent the Swiss halfworlds for harlots sounds like a tragic story from the pen of Oscar Wilde.
11-15-2018 08:16 AM
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Post: #165
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Combination of 1 and 2.
11-15-2018 08:24 AM
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jselysianeagle Offline
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Post: #166
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
(11-14-2018 08:52 PM)Jaxon Wrote:  ^No offense Delta, but I personally feel like a lot of guys in the manosphere/on the internet overstate how hypergamous most women really are.

I'm a young guy in my early twenties. I've put a good amount of effort into my fitness and game over the years, but all in all, I'm not some dark triad chad. I've been in a great relationship for two years with an attractive girl who loves me. Most of my friends either are or have been in a similar situation. We're all relatively normal guys with normal lives. I have a high notch count as a result of discovering game in my mid teens, but most of my friends don't. Regardless, very few people in my social circle are completely luckless with women.

This applies to guys all over the place. In college, I'd routinely see hot girls with relatively average guys. Even at my workplace, most of my coworkers -- also relatively average people -- are either dating or are married to cute girls.

In the realm of pure casual sex, women obviously have an advantage, but we're not living in some hypergamous nightmare by any means.

Similarly, I realized that a lot of the girls I had in my "rotations" weren't necessarily damaged, hypergamous, or particularly bad people at all. I just wasn't actually that into them and didn't feel a deeper connection beyond sex. Deep down, I wanted a relationship, and kept getting disappointed when these "hypergamous, cold-hearted women" ghosted me -- either to bang someone else or to date a guy they actually liked. I think a lot of people mistake their lack of compatibility with women for a massive social issue.

There's a lot of doom and gloom in the game/manosphere community. Honestly, I feel like gurus like RSD created these ideas just to make game seem like more of a necessity and therefore sell more shit. I think it's true that 20% of all guys are banging 80% of all girls in terms of pure casual sex, but the ratio is a lot more equitable when it comes to actual relationships.

Good post.

By the way, welcome back Agastya/Bastard Sword! Why do you keep changing your handle over and over again?

Pussy ain't for pussies...
11-15-2018 12:49 PM
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #167
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
(11-14-2018 08:52 PM)Jaxon Wrote:  ^No offense Delta, but I personally feel like a lot of guys in the manosphere/on the internet overstate how hypergamous most women really are.

I'm a young guy in my early twenties. I've put a good amount of effort into my fitness and game over the years, but all in all, I'm not some dark triad chad. I've been in a great relationship for two years with an attractive girl who loves me. Most of my friends either are or have been in a similar situation. We're all relatively normal guys with normal lives. I have a high notch count as a result of discovering game in my mid teens, but most of my friends don't. Regardless, very few people in my social circle are completely luckless with women.

This applies to guys all over the place. In college, I'd routinely see hot girls with relatively average guys. Even at my workplace, most of my coworkers -- also relatively average people -- are either dating or are married to cute girls.

In the realm of pure casual sex, women obviously have an advantage, but we're not living in some hypergamous nightmare by any means.

Similarly, I realized that a lot of the girls I had in my "rotations" weren't necessarily damaged, hypergamous, or particularly bad people at all. I just wasn't actually that into them and didn't feel a deeper connection beyond sex. Deep down, I wanted a relationship, and kept getting disappointed when these "hypergamous, cold-hearted women" ghosted me -- either to bang someone else or to date a guy they actually liked. I think a lot of people mistake their lack of compatibility with women for a massive social issue.

There's a lot of doom and gloom in the game/manosphere community. Honestly, I feel like gurus like RSD created these ideas just to make game seem like more of a necessity and therefore sell more shit. I think it's true that 20% of all guys are banging 80% of all girls in terms of pure casual sex, but the ratio is a lot more equitable when it comes to actual relationships.
This point gets brought up all the time. I was taught hypergamy is when a woman moves up if better options come. They have NO sense of loyalty and will leave or atleast cheat when a better option comes around.

The MGTOW counter to your belief is "Cock Carousel". This is when women sleep around for a certain amount of time to get the "hoe" out her system and settle for a less than man until something better comes around. College USED to be the time to do this but with social media and easier access to transportation, girls are doing this in their early to mid teens. It's not rare to find an 18 year old girl with a notch count in the 20's

I'm not here to tell you-you're wrong, Due to confirmation bias we can both find evidence that supports and even "proves" we're both right. I like your opinion and took it into consideration.

Also the high SMV men don't want to commit to a single woman, so of course the best looking women end up in relationships with lesser men. This isn't the rule ofcourse just my viewpoint.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 06:08 PM by Donfitz007.)
11-15-2018 06:07 PM
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Post: #168
RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Hypergamy was first used in the English language in a book about India’s caste system.

As far as I’m aware Roger Devlin, a socially conservative Roman Catholic, who took part in the pre-smartphone Game forums, transposed the term to manosphere parlance.
11-16-2018 02:13 AM
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RE: No. 1 Reason for Declining SMV in The West
Gendernomics’ Book Value offers some explanation by comparing 1938 and 2008’s women’ expectations.

“The greatest gains observed came in the form of Education/Intelligence that went from 11th place in 1938 to 4th in 2008. Sociability, rising from 12th to 6th place, Good financial prospect,rising from 17th to 12th place, finally good looks rising from 12th place to 6th place.”

https://blacklabellogic.com/2016/11/02/g...ook-value/
11-17-2018 04:08 AM
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