Lady Is Here! I have written a book for feminine-minded women (and the men who want relationships with them). Click Here For Full Details.

Post Reply 
Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Author Message
subterfuge Online
Chubby Chaser
**

Posts: 544
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 9
Post: #1
Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
The biggest change i've noticed in the industry (particularly on forums but also from coaches/authors etc) is the reduction in the belief of just how powerful 'game' is, and with it, a change of what game is

I saw WestIndianArchie write something about this, and he talked about how most peoples 'game' is actually just screening (but they think they are 'gaming') and only a TINY percentage of game being taught is proper conversion game where you make a girl who isn't attracted to you, attracted to you!

I was reading seddit and RSD earlier, and reading some FR's, and lots of people opening (both direct and indirect) getting rejected, and all of the replies are like ''Yep, she just wasn't into you. You never stood a chance. No big deal. Move on to the next one, bro! good stuff!!''

I feel like this sort of reply would never have been given back when it was the mysterymethod boys running the community. 'She just wasn't attracted' could never be an excuse in those days since they believed you could make her attracted


Another guy started a thread about a hot girl at work and how he's opened her and teased her and been playful and showed confidence but she isn't giving any IOI's at all, and again people are like ''yeah, she's not into you. Next!''

These same people say 'just learn game, bro!' but what's to 'learn' if it's just hitting on girls and seeing which ones like you/think you are hot? That's not a skill in my eyes. There's nothing to 'learn' there.

I feel like we are essentially saying that looks really are basically everything.

Personally, I have my own idea of what game is and what the limits are and I fall inbetween the people who think that it's mainly about her needing to find you physically attractive to have a shot, and the people who think game is some jedi mind trick where, even as a very ugly old dude, you can bang any 10/10 teen cheerleader who takes your fancy if you know game!

I kind of think that good 'game' can give you an extra point or 2 basically. I don't believe an ugly old guy who has nothing other than game will be able to bang 9/10 cheerleaders from cold approach for example. But I think a semi decent good looking guy who has lots of game, who the girl looks at and thinks is 'hot but not as hot as that guy over there by the fruit machine', can compete with the other dude (depending on his game)

Not sure where I want to go with this thread, but maybe lets talk about what your idea of game is and where you stand. If you happen to be a hardcore believer, Maybe even examples of times you've ran or seen conversion game and tips that one can use to influence and manipulate a girl into finding you attractive

I'm not the best looking dude and feel like even whilst using negs, cold reads, etc (if i'm running mm game) or if i'm just self amusing and relying on state trasnference etc (RSD style game) or any other variation of game (i've read about every PUA book in existence!) it's largely entirely out of my control and I find myself flipping between what I actually believe.

My journal : https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-57783.html
(This post was last modified: 12-15-2018 09:14 AM by subterfuge.)
12-15-2018 09:10 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like subterfuge's post:
BadBoyGamer, darknesspua, polnischspeaker234
BadBoyGamer Offline
Chubby Chaser
**

Posts: 281
Joined: Sep 2018
Reputation: 8
Post: #2
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Cold approach pickup is hard. Very hard. And only few guys be able to do it. It is entirely safe to assume that 95% of guys just cannot do it. And I am just talking about approaching, which is really just the beginning of the whole process. Not even talking about going on dates or having sex.

Mastery is even harder to obtain. Safe to assume 99.98% does not even get close. And I am trying to be positive here.

But that does not mean these guys just go away. No, they go on forums and begin talking about how looks matter most instead. Or they go make arguments that Game is just dishonest manipulation. Or they go curse at guys and call them "little robots" or something.

And some coaches are smart enough to monetize on this. Why try to teach pickup and Game if you can make more money by selling some bullshit? Cannot blame these coaches for desiring to make some cash. Everyone wants cash.

The greatest businessman in the world manages to sell you air. Literal fucking air. The second best businessman in world sells you water. Literal fucking water.

RSD for example never really has been a "pickup company". They sell a fantasy. Some of it might be rooted in reality, but that is not what is important. It is a whole lot more profitable to keep guys in the dark and show them a little light. Just enough so they keep emptying their wallets time after time again.

Plenty guys are victim to tactics like this.

Then there are the angry guys. Guys who basically have given up. Problem is that awareness of Game is poison. Knowing that you might be able to do something. That you actually can make your dreams come true. Having this knowledge and then doing nothing is destructive like nothing else. Ignorance is truly bliss.

I fully expect male suicide rates to go up in near future (if not already happening). A large part of these guys will be Game aware guys. Guys who know how to get chicks, but are unable to actually do it.

Another point I like to make is that people these days have trouble concentrating. Reading an entire book is much harder then just watching a few 10 minute videos on Youtube. And in order to learn Game one really needs to read books. Books are still the best medium to transfer knowledge from one person to another. And some of these books need to be studied like a math book. Cannot just read it and put it away. Notes need to be made. Sections need to be highlighted. Things need to be memorized. You get the idea.

Also want to note that the community will degenerate to the lowest common denominator when the size increases. This is true for ANY community that increases in size.

Only three ways to do something: "The right way. The wrong way. Or my way. Obviously my way is best."
12-15-2018 09:58 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like BadBoyGamer's post:
MathGuy, Professor When, rottenapple, N°6, darknesspua
Kieran Offline
Alpha Male
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,256
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 17
Post: #3
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Conversion is possible. It just requires time to work on the girl, which is why so much of the old school approach is about creating time with the girl and making her feel comfortable (indirect openers, false time restraints, etc.), in order that you can convey value. When you convey that value, she becomes attracted.

One of the best ways to convey value is by creating an emotional reaction, which is why Juggler's 2005 book is probably the best I've ever read, and is a simple process to follow, with a clear method for escalation.
12-15-2018 11:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Kieran's post:
Built to Fade
MathGuy Offline
Beta Orbiter
*
Gold Member

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug 2016
Reputation: 10
Post: #4
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-15-2018 09:58 AM)BadBoyGamer Wrote:  Cold approach pickup is hard. Very hard. And only few guys be able to do it. It is entirely safe to assume that 95% of guys just cannot do it. And I am just talking about approaching, which is really just the beginning of the whole process. Not even talking about going on dates or having sex.

Mastery is even harder to obtain. Safe to assume 99.98% does not even get close. And I am trying to be positive here.

But that does not mean these guys just go away. No, they go on forums and begin talking about how looks matter most instead. Or they go make arguments that Game is just dishonest manipulation. Or they go curse at guys and call them "little robots" or something.

And some coaches are smart enough to monetize on this. Why try to teach pickup and Game if you can make more money by selling some bullshit? Cannot blame these coaches for desiring to make some cash. Everyone wants cash.

The greatest businessman in the world manages to sell you air. Literal fucking air. The second best businessman in world sells you water. Literal fucking water.

RSD for example never really has been a "pickup company". They sell a fantasy. Some of it might be rooted in reality, but that is not what is important. It is a whole lot more profitable to keep guys in the dark and show them a little light. Just enough so they keep emptying their wallets time after time again.

Plenty guys are victim to tactics like this.

Then there are the angry guys. Guys who basically have given up. Problem is that awareness of Game is poison. Knowing that you might be able to do something. That you actually can make your dreams come true. Having this knowledge and then doing nothing is destructive like nothing else. Ignorance is truly bliss.

I fully expect male suicide rates to go up in near future (if not already happening). A large part of these guys will be Game aware guys. Guys who know how to get chicks, but are unable to actually do it.

Another point I like to make is that people these days have trouble concentrating. Reading an entire book is much harder then just watching a few 10 minute videos on Youtube. And in order to learn Game one really needs to read books. Books are still the best medium to transfer knowledge from one person to another. And some of these books need to be studied like a math book. Cannot just read it and put it away. Notes need to be made. Sections need to be highlighted. Things need to be memorized. You get the idea.

Also want to note that the community will degenerate to the lowest common denominator when the size increases. This is true for ANY community that increases in size.


A truly excellent post. This forum and the whole community needs more people like you. You summarized the proper outlook.
12-15-2018 11:36 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Hypno Offline
International Playboy
******

Posts: 3,046
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation: 32
Post: #5
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-15-2018 11:20 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Conversion is possible. It just requires time to work on the girl, which is why so much of the old school approach is about creating time with the girl and making her feel comfortable (indirect openers, false time restraints, etc.), in order that you can convey value. When you convey that value, she becomes attracted.

One of the best ways to convey value is by creating an emotional reaction, which is why Juggler's 2005 book is probably the best I've ever read, and is a simple process to follow, with a clear method for escalation.

Mystery had this idea that you needed to put in 7 hours to create sufficient comfort to get the bang. I don't know if women became sluttier since Mystery's day - they have but I wonder how much so - but the 7 hour rule is not a limit. Lots of guys get bangs much quicker.

A lot of the mystery method is about approaching and comfort, not about attraction.

Telling stories with emotional spikes can trigger attraction. There is a lot of free stuff availalbe on line. An old NLP guy, Ross Jefferies, either wrote under a psudonumy or had an immitator called Bishop with some good emotional spike stories. The Ross Jefferies method either doesn't work or requires such a huge investment in technique that its not worth it, but the emotional spike stories are usueful if you put them in your own words.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/19090105/eBoo...-s-Journal

When I was in college, I had a full scholarship. One fall, the paperwork got delayed. They wouldn't let me register for classes or buy student-discounted football tickets until the paperwork got straightened out. I had a big argument with my financial aid office about this, was really steamed. Came home to my fraternity house and went to the room of one of my fraternity brothers. He and his roommate were there with a girl. (He was little sister chairman so there were always girls there.) I really vented to him, I was very angry. I wasn't trying to seduce her but she became incredibly attracted to me, and I banged her for the first time either that night or the next night. Had never met her before. So intense emotions, even negative ones, can be incredibly attractive to women even though as men we might see them as a sign of weakness in other men or a sign that a guy is not under control.

There is a lot to game besides attraction. Its like saying a Ferrari is the engine. Well, if the Ferrari has a flat tire, you are not going to get very far. Game, like a Ferrari, has a lot of parts. Approaching, inner game, logistics, attraction, comfort, etc. You have to put it all together. You don't need to be a 10 in any category, but a zero will usually be the end.

If your point is that there is too little discussion about attraction on this forum, that is a fair criticism to a point. But let me point something out. If you talk to a woman different from other guys, if you challenge her and don't fall for her shit tests, she will be attracted to you. That's in a thread called text game. If you have your financial life in order and can take her on a date or go on a trip and post pics to your IG account, that creates attraction. There are threads on career, investing, IG, photography, travel, etc.

Read a book about about game like Bang or the The Game that talk about all aspects about game. Then think about your own experience and what you are lacking and where you have the most room to improve.

Focussing on attraction to the exclusion of all others is a mistake. You still need to approach. You still need to do a lot of other little things. The guys in my fraternity who got the most tail were not the best looking guys. By a mile, it was the guys who stepped up to the plate the most.
12-15-2018 12:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Hypno's post:
BadBoyGamer, Built to Fade, BBinger
Kish Offline
Alpha Male
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,115
Joined: Dec 2010
Reputation: 6
Post: #6
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I feel like we are essentially saying that looks really are basically everything.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnxmzt3fmWcqLXgThP_9B...TD5zoNdzPC]
12-15-2018 02:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Kish's post:
Built to Fade
RatInTheWoods Offline
International Playboy
******
Gold Member

Posts: 3,191
Joined: Jul 2015
Reputation: 32
Post: #7
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Like everything in life, the two extream ends are separated by many shades of grey.

The truth isn't that you can bang ANY woman with game, nor is it that game makes no difference, its all looks.

So the art of game is to find the shades of grey to operate efficiently in, and to hone your game skills to make that zone as large as possible.

Don't waste 7 hours on trying (and failing) to get a 9 to bang, when you could game a 7 into the sack in 2 hours.
12-15-2018 05:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like RatInTheWoods's post:
Built to Fade, Feldeinsamkeit, Zoso, The Golden God
Kieran Offline
Alpha Male
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,256
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 17
Post: #8
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-15-2018 12:02 PM)Hypno Wrote:  
(12-15-2018 11:20 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Conversion is possible. It just requires time to work on the girl, which is why so much of the old school approach is about creating time with the girl and making her feel comfortable (indirect openers, false time restraints, etc.), in order that you can convey value. When you convey that value, she becomes attracted.

One of the best ways to convey value is by creating an emotional reaction, which is why Juggler's 2005 book is probably the best I've ever read, and is a simple process to follow, with a clear method for escalation.

Mystery had this idea that you needed to put in 7 hours to create sufficient comfort to get the bang. I don't know if women became sluttier since Mystery's day - they have but I wonder how much so - but the 7 hour rule is not a limit. Lots of guys get bangs much quicker.

A lot of the mystery method is about approaching and comfort, not about attraction.

Telling stories with emotional spikes can trigger attraction. There is a lot of free stuff availalbe on line. An old NLP guy, Ross Jefferies, either wrote under a psudonumy or had an immitator called Bishop with some good emotional spike stories. The Ross Jefferies method either doesn't work or requires such a huge investment in technique that its not worth it, but the emotional spike stories are usueful if you put them in your own words.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/19090105/eBoo...-s-Journal

When I was in college, I had a full scholarship. One fall, the paperwork got delayed. They wouldn't let me register for classes or buy student-discounted football tickets until the paperwork got straightened out. I had a big argument with my financial aid office about this, was really steamed. Came home to my fraternity house and went to the room of one of my fraternity brothers. He and his roommate were there with a girl. (He was little sister chairman so there were always girls there.) I really vented to him, I was very angry. I wasn't trying to seduce her but she became incredibly attracted to me, and I banged her for the first time either that night or the next night. Had never met her before. So intense emotions, even negative ones, can be incredibly attractive to women even though as men we might see them as a sign of weakness in other men or a sign that a guy is not under control.

There is a lot to game besides attraction. Its like saying a Ferrari is the engine. Well, if the Ferrari has a flat tire, you are not going to get very far. Game, like a Ferrari, has a lot of parts. Approaching, inner game, logistics, attraction, comfort, etc. You have to put it all together. You don't need to be a 10 in any category, but a zero will usually be the end.

If your point is that there is too little discussion about attraction on this forum, that is a fair criticism to a point. But let me point something out. If you talk to a woman different from other guys, if you challenge her and don't fall for her shit tests, she will be attracted to you. That's in a thread called text game. If you have your financial life in order and can take her on a date or go on a trip and post pics to your IG account, that creates attraction. There are threads on career, investing, IG, photography, travel, etc.

Read a book about about game like Bang or the The Game that talk about all aspects about game. Then think about your own experience and what you are lacking and where you have the most room to improve.

Focussing on attraction to the exclusion of all others is a mistake. You still need to approach. You still need to do a lot of other little things. The guys in my fraternity who got the most tail were not the best looking guys. By a mile, it was the guys who stepped up to the plate the most.

My point is that it's possible to convert girls that are not physically attracted at the outset through game, something that Subterfuge doesn't believe is possible. Obviously comfort, logistics, etc., matter too, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with that. The argument that Subterfuge always puts forward is that he's never seen an example of conversion. I've seen countless examples, and have done it myself. It might not happen within 10 seconds because of some special magic line (which is what Subterfuge always people to provide in his rebuttals), but it is certainly possible with a bit of time to work.

At Subterfuge, I really recommend that you consider the possibility that there's a lot more potential with game beyond screening, and then running don't fuck up game, which is what most of this forum has become. You seem to have an inkling that it might be possible so why not run with it for a while.
12-16-2018 04:48 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Hypno Offline
International Playboy
******

Posts: 3,046
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation: 32
Post: #9
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Attraction to women has very little to do with looks. Confidence however, even faked, is necessary. Status is something that that can be cultivated, developed, improved, bought, even faked, and reinforces confidence.

But I'm not here to try to convince people that game works.

content/uploads/2012/03/neil-strauss-before-and-after-300x172.jpg[/img]
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2018 09:34 AM by Hypno.)
12-16-2018 09:34 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Hypno's post:
Zoso, Built to Fade
Zoso Offline
Recovering Beta
*

Posts: 184
Joined: Jun 2017
Reputation: 1
Post: #10
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
To all blackpilled guys here... sit back and relax, game works and a vag it's not the end of the world finally Noworry
12-16-2018 11:26 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Zoso's post:
Built to Fade
darknesspua Offline
Male Feminist

Posts: 13
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 1
Post: #11
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Well first let me congratulate you for your thoughts. I think that you did a great job expressing the issues you are confronting right now. I hope I can give you a little bit of advice that will guide you and will also help all the guys get an understanding of how this works.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  The biggest change i've noticed in the industry (particularly on forums but also from coaches/authors etc) is the reduction in the belief of just how powerful 'game' is, and with it, a change of what game is

I saw WestIndianArchie write something about this, and he talked about how most peoples 'game' is actually just screening (but they think they are 'gaming') and only a TINY percentage of game being taught is proper conversion game where you make a girl who isn't attracted to you, attracted to you!

Well, here you're talking about three things:

1. The fact that new coaches and the overall community is focusing less on conversion game and focusing more on screening game. With this trend also comes the pushing of the belief that game is not so powerful and everything you have to do is really reduced to finding girls that are attracted to you.

You are correct in what you are perceiving about the change of direction in game.

You see the thing is this, conversion game is very fucking hard and it takes a lot of time to really master it and be able to apply it. Any guy who wants to become a master at conversion game needs to have a set of skills and resources that would allow him to pursue learning the discipline for as long as it takes for him to get the results he wants.

The fact is that the vast majority of guys do not have the time, resources, motivation, learning skills, conducive environment, support, guidance, etc. to be able to invest the time and effort that really mastering conversion game requires for them to get the results that it can provide.

Most guys have to go to college, work, pay the rent, play sports, watch TV, waste time doing hours of useless homework they get from school, sleep, etc. so they really do not have much time to devote to study something as deep and as complicated and as demanding as game is.

Moreover most of these guys eat like shit, have a terrible fitness, lack of energy, etc. that makes all of this stuff even more difficult for them.

And if that was not enough, most guys are terribly bad educated and lack a lot of skills for studying and understanding new subjects. All thanks to the destruction of the educational system and the liberal indoctrination of kids.

Then, you have the fact that the social landscape has also changed a lot. Making it more dangerous and difficult to practice your game skills with all the feminists, fags and other useful idiots that represent a potential danger and threat to any guy who is heterosexual. Not to mention the me too movement and all the false rape accusations that can scare the shit out of any guy new to this.

So, all of these things make the new guys (the market of gurus and coaches) want things that can be very easily applied and very easily learned. They do not have time to invest in learning very complicated and difficult techniques and methods. They do not have the energy and motivation to go through hell, failure after failure to become masters of a craft. And they certainly do not want to spend the next five years mastering the deepness and darkness of the manipulation disciplines.

Besides that, they are also blue pill betas that live in a fantasyland, endlessly hoping to meet their special girl, their unicorn. They believe that they will be loved by who they are and that manipulating girls to loving them or desiring them is something monstrous to do or to even think or consider in their minds.

So, this reality leads the gurus and coaches to focus their products and marketing to cater to this niche market (which is vast, with huge financial gain potential).

Now, in a sense, I believe that an emphasis on screening game is for the benefit of the community at large, because this type of game will satisfy their basic need of sex.

Screening game provides you the tools to have an abundant sexual life without having to spend years of your life, fortunes and the effort of the gods to master the most advanced seduction methods.

I think that for any aspiring seducer, screening game is the best place to start with. It will give you something to eat and allow you to have a sexual life satisfying enough so that you can maintain your psychological health in such abrasive environments as the new liberal societies are creating.

Conversion game is for those guys who have the call to do so and the patience, resources, motivation, discipline, time, etc. to do so.

Conversion game is for craftsmen.


Screening game is for the regular Joe to get laid and have a healthy and abundant sex life without much effort or time invested.


I myself am a craftsman, who joyfully pursues conversion game for the sake of mastery and personal satisfaction, but I can do that because of the way I have structured my life.

I can pursue mastery because it is congruent for me to do so. I am a salesman, a marketer, an advertiser and an avid student of persuasion and manipulation, so studying seduction is something that I am able to do without having to sacrifice much and something that also adds to my life in many ways, but that is something that very few people can actually do.

Mastery is a fun, interesting and rewarding pursuit, but demanding and tough. It is NOT necessary to get laid consistently, but it is challenging, entertaining and fun for those who are willing to pay the price of pursuing it. In other words, it is a damn fun hobby.

2. Your belief that the definition of game has changed over time.

The definition of game has not changed.

The definition of Game includes BOTH screening game AND conversion game.

They are just opposites in a spectrum of the amount of game applied to interactions.

To put it simply:

- Do you want to have an abundant sex life without much time end effort invested? Do screening game.

- Do you want to lay the most reluctant girls you can find? Do conversion game.

- Do you want to have the highest probability of banging a girl in ANY given situation you find yourself in? Study and master BOTH and the methods that lie between the 2 poles.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I was reading seddit and RSD earlier, and reading some FR's, and lots of people opening (both direct and indirect) getting rejected, and all of the replies are like ''Yep, she just wasn't into you. You never stood a chance. No big deal. Move on to the next one, bro! good stuff!!''

I feel like this sort of reply would never have been given back when it was the mysterymethod boys running the community. 'She just wasn't attracted' could never be an excuse in those days since they believed you could make her attracted

In a sense you are right, the MM guys would try to find a way to bypass her brush offs and get the girl attracted to them.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Another guy started a thread about a hot girl at work and how he's opened her and teased her and been playful and showed confidence but she isn't giving any IOI's at all, and again people are like ''yeah, she's not into you. Next!''

Guys who are screeners are not focused nor interested on getting a specific girl. They are focused on getting sex by playing the numbers game and finding the most receptive girls to work with.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  These same people say 'just learn game, bro!' but what's to 'learn' if it's just hitting on girls and seeing which ones like you/think you are hot? That's not a skill in my eyes. There's nothing to 'learn' there.

Even screening game requires game for when you find your “yes” and “maybe” girls, but it is neither as complicated nor elaborate as MM and overall conversion game.

What you are doing with screening game is first locating the girls who are attracted, available and DTF with you, THEN you need a certain amount of game to close the deal and not fuck it up.

They are both skills, just different KIND of skills.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I feel like we are essentially saying that looks really are basically everything.

Looks help in screening game, but not as much as many may think. What it really comes down is to the numbers. THAT is the key in screening game. You need to find the chicks that are horny, available and not totally repelled by you.

The theory goes that the better your looks the lesser your effort (# of approaches), but in practice, it is the numbers that dictate everything pretty much.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Personally, I have my own idea of what game is and what the limits are and I fall inbetween the people who think that it's mainly about her needing to find you physically attractive to have a shot, and the people who think game is some jedi mind trick where, even as a very ugly old dude, you can bang any 10/10 teen cheerleader who takes your fancy if you know game!

I kind of think that good 'game' can give you an extra point or 2 basically. I don't believe an ugly old guy who has nothing other than game will be able to bang 9/10 cheerleaders from cold approach for example. But I think a semi decent good looking guy who has lots of game, who the girl looks at and thinks is 'hot but not as hot as that guy over there by the fruit machine', can compete with the other dude (depending on his game)

The problem that you got is that you are misunderstanding game.

You are giving too much importance to the person than it really has.

Women do not always fuck men because of what they are, they fuck them because they (the men) represent a means to get something else the girl wants (sexual release, money, etc.)

If a chick digs you physically and wants to fuck you because of yourself, then good, but when a chick DOES NOT digs you and you want to fuck her, game gives you the possibility to exploit her other wants and desired outcomes to motivate her to fuck you.

By using game, you get to fuck her through channeling her motivation to reach her other desired outcomes (sexual release, vengeance, money, etc.)

You become a “means to an end” instead of “the end itself” to get her to fuck with you. Got it?

Do not take YOURSELF as so central to the equation for banging a girl, you are not.


(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Not sure where I want to go with this thread, but maybe lets talk about what your idea of game is and where you stand. If you happen to be a hardcore believer, Maybe even examples of times you've ran or seen conversion game and tips that one can use to influence and manipulate a girl into finding you attractive

I think it was GREAT threat idea that will be of great help to many newbs.

Tips:

- You are not necessarily offering yourself to a girl; you can be offering just sexual release or satisfaction or pleasure. For many a horny girl that is reason enough. It is not nesesarily YOU what they want, it is the RELEASE or the PLEASURE that you offer what they want.

- Girls do NOT have a REAL reason NOT to fuck with you (They fuck animals, things and other women for Christ sake! What makes you think that fucking a man, even an ugly one, would be more difficult than that?). All reasons are socially conditioned. Take away the social risks and costs she perceives with fucking you, arouse her enough and you will fuck her.

(12-15-2018 09:10 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  I'm not the best looking dude and feel like even whilst using negs, cold reads, etc (if i'm running mm game) or if i'm just self amusing and relying on state trasnference etc (RSD style game) or any other variation of game (i've read about every PUA book in existence!) it's largely entirely out of my control and I find myself flipping between what I actually believe.

If you do not understand the big picture and where does each model fits, you are as good as a newbie destined for a journey full of confusion.

All the methods are valid and very useful, but they are intended for different situations and types of girls. They are different tools for different jobs. Understand the intended purpose of each and you will understand game in its entirety. They are complementary not oppositions.
12-16-2018 02:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like darknesspua's post:
RatInTheWoods, Built to Fade, True Balla, polnischspeaker234, Anchor Man
subterfuge Online
Chubby Chaser
**

Posts: 544
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 9
Post: #12
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
What books do you recommend that teach us what to say and do in an interaction to make every girl attracted to us? What to say when you open her and she instantly say 'Eww...not interested'' and turns around and walks away etc?

I ask because I think i've read just about every PUA book in existence from mysterymethod to Vin Di Carlo, to Ross Jefferies to Richard La Ruina and everything in between, so I assume you must be talking about books i'm yet to read.

Cheers

My journal : https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-57783.html
12-16-2018 06:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Kieran Offline
Alpha Male
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,256
Joined: Apr 2013
Reputation: 17
Post: #13
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
There is no magic line to make a woman attracted to you and asking for one is either you being clever and snarky, or you really have no understanding of game. Your approach needs to be calibrated well enough that she allows you time to use your game on her and escalate to the next level. If she's not attracted at the outset, then your approach needs to make her comfortable enough to just exchange a quick few words with her, then you hook her enough through what you say that she wants to have a conversation with you, but she's still not considering you as a sexual option, so you keep on buying time and escalating as and when she's ready. When she's attracted to you at the outset, you get to bypass all of these stages, and start straight at the attraction point. You still of course need to follow a process of escalation, comfort building, and logistics management to get to sex because girls generally aren't ready to go straight from hello to sex.

How men can be aware that women fuck dildos, bull-dykes, masturbate over words on a page, etc., but don't believe that a man can get a woman aroused through his words enough that she will fuck him if the situation is right is beyond me.
12-17-2018 09:10 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like Kieran's post:
darknesspua, maharajj, True Balla, Built to Fade, Anchor Man
darknesspua Offline
Male Feminist

Posts: 13
Joined: May 2017
Reputation: 1
Post: #14
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-17-2018 09:10 AM)Kieran Wrote:  There is no magic line to make a woman attracted to you and asking for one is either you being clever and snarky, or you really have no understanding of game. Your approach needs to be calibrated well enough that she allows you time to use your game on her and escalate to the next level. If she's not attracted at the outset, then your approach needs to make her comfortable enough to just exchange a quick few words with her, then you hook her enough through what you say that she wants to have a conversation with you, but she's still not considering you as a sexual option, so you keep on buying time and escalating as and when she's ready. When she's attracted to you at the outset, you get to bypass all of these stages, and start straight at the attraction point. You still of course need to follow a process of escalation, comfort building, and logistics management to get to sex because girls generally aren't ready to go straight from hello to sex.

How men can be aware that women fuck dildos, bull-dykes, masturbate over words on a page, etc., but don't believe that a man can get a woman aroused through his words enough that she will fuck him if the situation is right is beyond me.

God this guy really gets it :')

That is absuluetly correct! Great way to put in a summarized form Kieran! Cheerleader
12-17-2018 09:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
subterfuge Online
Chubby Chaser
**

Posts: 544
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 9
Post: #15
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
Not a magic line, but which books teach this skill to manipulate any girl into wanting you no matter your looks? (As I say, i'm hoping we're not just talking about the usual methods given in mysterymethod etc as I have experience with that (negs, dhv stories etc) already)
I get the impression darknessPUA must be talking about things that basically nobody else here is aware of so i'm curious

My journal : https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-57783.html
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2018 09:56 AM by subterfuge.)
12-17-2018 09:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
BBinger Offline
Chubby Chaser
**

Posts: 364
Joined: Apr 2015
Reputation: 7
Post: #16
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
(12-17-2018 09:54 AM)subterfuge Wrote:  Not a magic line, but which books teach this skill to manipulate any girl into wanting you no matter your looks? (As I say, i'm hoping we're not just talking about the usual methods given in mysterymethod etc as I have experience with that (negs, dhv stories etc) already)
I get the impression darknessPUA must be talking about things that basically nobody else here is aware of so i'm curious

It is really nothing that mysterious. Women want their holes filled. When you play a screening game you filter for girls who want their holes filled right now, and if done right other girls start thinking about their desire for a filling. In conversion game you cast a wider net, but you are still getting girls to think about how much they want their holes filled.

When it comes down to it there are more wet holes looking for a stuffing than hard cocks looking to fill them. This is the root of the sex war and justification for the abundance mentality. Perceiving the opposite is likewise the root of much suffering. A healthy woman of child bearing age can spend 8-16 hours a day on her back taking dick in her pussy. Plenty of women make a trade of out this while many women can't because wet pussy is the side of the equation in a surplus.

How do mutually satisfying relations happen? When there is no bottom to the pit of female desire, how can any man avoid the void of being insufficient?

Healthy girls want whole man in their lives more than they want just cock. If you give them fun and the sort of peace which can only had through submitting themselves... you own their hearts and their pussies.

Knowledge that you not only have, but ARE what the girlies want is where your inner game has to come from. This comes out of faith in yourself and hard earned experience interacting with girls and their thirst. From there you have to tickle their fun bone. The more resistant to this they are, the less of your time they are worth.
12-17-2018 10:44 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Scott Offline
Recovering Beta
*

Posts: 248
Joined: Sep 2011
Reputation: 2
Post: #17
RE: Let's talk about influence/manipulation/attraction
I'm bumping this thread, because as someone who is just returning to Game after a seven-year "hiatus", I've been seeing quite a lot of what the OP mentions: A lot of people out in the community emphasise the "numbers" game, and an approach that favours identifying attraction ASAP, then capitalising on that if it exists.

That strategy is valid. It's good for building confidence, lets a beginner filter out the time-wasters quickly, and will ultimately result in bangs. In fact, Roosh's Game book advocates for this approach: The Roosh Program involves 100 approaches. 100 approaches means an aspiring player will talk to more girls while in the Program than they likely ever will in a lifetime after finishing school. As Roosh says, there's likely about seven million girls out there who are attracted to you... you just have to find them. If I, having been out of the Game for so long, was forced to write a book on being a player, I'd make it 60% pre-Game, 30% approaches and 10% escalating; this would result in the biggest gains for the largest amount of men.

It's no surprise that random commenters on forums echo this sort of advice, which has been put out ever since the term "PUA" came about. The issues come when, as indicated above, men reading this advice don't think about how to apply it to their own lives and context. The fact is that "conversion" game is very much alive and well, but:
  • It's not taught because it involves so many different variables depending on context (e.g. social circle, reasons to demonstrate higher value); and
  • It's not encouraged because putting in any effort into someone who is not obviously into you from the get-go can lead to oneitis.
Conversion means you have to make a fair assessment of the situation, the girl's situation, your position, opportunities to talk etc. This takes smarts and luck, but is very hard to teach - especially since it changes on a case-by-case basis. If you try to hand-hold a beginner through that process and fuck up (or they fuck up), then it's very easy to be blamed for that - even though it may not be your fault at all. This is why there's no magic bullet, but it's very difficult for many men to accept that.
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2018 06:55 PM by Scott.)
12-30-2018 06:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Shit test or genuine attraction? matt1996 3 904 10-15-2018 03:29 PM
Last Post: UniversalMen
  Maintaining attraction with girls you assume are dating other people? dirty_old 9 2,438 04-25-2018 05:16 PM
Last Post: treypound
  My sexual attraction is going up BlueResolute 8 2,088 04-24-2018 07:02 PM
Last Post: JackinMelbourne

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication