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Poll: What is your opinion of welfare?
It is a good thing, society should help the needy
It is a bad thing, people should be responsible for their own lives.
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What is your opinion of welfare?
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zigZag Offline
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Post: #76
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 05:22 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Ultimately companies and employers pay whatever they goddamn want. Point taken. All I'm saying is consider the unintentended consequences like "ghosting", a recent trend by the way. You'll often hear how employers are struggling to find quality workers and having them stick around. Yea asshole you're offering garbage pay, why would I bust my ass off for you? No health insurance, no benefits and you have a job qualifications list that's a mile long. Talk about delusional!

Then when these companies turn around and hire illegals or H1Bs you guys hop on the but "muh hire Americans" mantra. Make up your minds.

No. You still don't get it. But it's to be expected. I honestly don't think you've run a business before. You don't seem to grasp fundamental economics. They don't pay "What they want". They pay what the market dictates.


What the economic reality of their business dictates? Please at least watch the video I embedded previously. It's less than 5mins of actual video you can listen to the german guy explain.

He grows asparagus. Grocery store is only willing to pay him x euros for asparagus. Therefore he has to keep labor costs low. When the minimum wage came in. He had to buy robots and fire a lot of workers.

Now he has to do more with less workers and those workers have to produce more. Economic reality dictates the price of your good or service. That is what dictates what you can pay workers.

No matter how you feel.. maybe you love your workers.. but it doesnt matter because you can only pay what you can pay.

Companies have to be profitable to survive. That means putting out a product that people will buy and producing it for less. That's really all it is. Some jobs aren't worth minimum wage. Usually supply and demand handles that. Any idiot can flip burgers... therefore it's a low value job. Same thing with picking vegetables and washing dishes. Low value and low wage. The problem isnt the company in these cases... it's people who have lived their lives and didn't improve themselves.

Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

As for ghosting. These people are idiots. Who will hire them after they ghosted an employer? It's the same type of short term thinking that leaves someone having to work at burger king or MacDonalds and wants that job to support their 3 kids when they had a whole life to gain skills. Right now the economy is good. Unemployment is low but it will change. Then what? Supply of workers will be much much greater than demand. Then these people will be having a hard time finding jobs and people like you will be blaming employers.
02-10-2019 06:42 PM
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TigerMandingo Offline
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Post: #77
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 06:42 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

Sorry, bro. Let me grab my little violin for the poor employers and mega corporations Laugh

Dude, please. Get outta here with your moralizing and your pop psychology. You think these companies think of me or anyone else as anything other than a pissant? A job is a transaction. I provide a service and you pay me. I bet you anything the average CEO has more contempt for his employees than vice versa. The days of guys like Henry Ford and Carnegie are long gone.

Kokkinakis banged your girlfriend. Sorry to tell you that mate.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2019 06:57 PM by TigerMandingo.)
02-10-2019 06:54 PM
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worldwidetraveler Offline
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Post: #78
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 06:54 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:42 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

Oh please. Get outta here with your moralizing and your pop psychology. You think these companies think of me or anyone else as anything other than a pissant? A job is a transaction. I provide a service and you pay me. I bet you anything the average CEO has more contempt for his employees than vice versa. The days of guys like Henry Ford and Carnegie are long gone.

When I entered into the "professional" workforce, I quickly found out the days someone would work most of their life and retire from a single company are long gone.

My dad and grandfathers all worked for a company and got a great retirement package for their work. My dad almost had his retirement package screwed when GM declared bankruptcy. But he still has a pretty good package. Look at Sears if you want to see some people getting screwed.

That is why options matter. Loyalty is gone. A company will do what it needs to do. You can't count on a company doing the "right" thing unless it is done out of it's own self interest.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2019 07:01 PM by worldwidetraveler.)
02-10-2019 07:00 PM
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zigZag Offline
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Post: #79
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 06:54 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:42 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

Oh please. Get outta here with your moralizing and your pop psychology. You think these companies think of me or anyone else as anything other than a pissant? A job is a transaction. I provide a service and you pay me. I bet you anything the average CEO has more contempt for his employees than vice versa. The days of guys like Henry Ford and Carnegie are long gone.

How many business owners do you know? How many CEOs? As i said you have a lot of opinions on stuff you are ignorant about. I know quite a few CEOs and Business owners. In fact a few of my brothers own businesses. It's NOTHING like you have in your mind. It reminds me of feminists screaming about how women were literally slaves oppressed and couldn't do anything before feminism.

Companies see workers are resources. They are trying to provide a good or service to a customer. Workers are the means to that end. Nothing more. Nothing less. Some owners are really nice. Some are assholes. That's just how it is with people. But no one should be coerced into anything. Which is what the minimum wage is.

Yes a job in a transaction. Yet you don't see any agency in the worker. If a boss is bad the worker can quit. If it's a transaction why would you want to control the price the worker can charge for their labor? It seems the worker can decide what to work for on their own right? So why would we need to have "A liveable wage" If it's two people negotiating something? Why not let workers and companies decide what their wage will be in negotiations?

As i said dude You genuinely seem to hate business people. It's not pop psychology BS... Just that's how you come off. Maybe you don't. But that's how you come off to me.
02-10-2019 07:04 PM
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zigZag Offline
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Post: #80
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 07:00 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:54 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:42 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

Oh please. Get outta here with your moralizing and your pop psychology. You think these companies think of me or anyone else as anything other than a pissant? A job is a transaction. I provide a service and you pay me. I bet you anything the average CEO has more contempt for his employees than vice versa. The days of guys like Henry Ford and Carnegie are long gone.

When I entered into the "professional" workforce, I quickly found out the days someone would work most of their life and retire from a single company are long gone.

My dad and grandfathers all worked for a company and got a great retirement package for their work. My dad almost had his retirement package screwed when GM declared bankruptcy. But he still has a pretty good package. Look at Sears if you want to see some people getting screwed.

That is why options matter. Loyalty is gone. A company will do what it needs to do. You can't count on a company doing the "right" thing unless it is done out of it's own self interest.

I totally agree with that. The issue here is the minimum wage. It's a horrible idea economically that makes things worse. TigerMandingo just hates companies and whats to destroy a lot of them. Which in reality would hurt the workers he cares about the most. He wants survival of the fittest for companies but then wants to use the power of the government to force businesses to pay workers more than they are worth. It's the hypocrisy in his views.

An aside this recent trend with the loss of loyalty came about with the first guys in silicon valley. Blame them for this world we live in.
02-10-2019 07:10 PM
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worldwidetraveler Offline
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Post: #81
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 07:04 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Companies see workers are resources.

That is the issue right there. I don't disagree with TigerMandingo when it comes to companies needing to take better care of their workers. We just disagree on how it should happen.

We are so fixated on profits and stock prices that you need to ask yourself how much is enough before we start looking at workers as human beings with families instead of just resources. Maybe when that happens people will be more loyal.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2019 07:13 PM by worldwidetraveler.)
02-10-2019 07:12 PM
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zigZag Offline
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Post: #82
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 07:12 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 07:04 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Companies see workers are resources.

That is the issue right there. I don't disagree with TigerMandingo when it comes to companies needing to take better care of their workers. We just disagree on how it should happen.

We are so fixated on profits and stock prices that you need to ask yourself how much is enough before we start looking at workers as human beings with families instead of just resources. Maybe when that happens people will be more loyal.

I don't disagree that SOME (keyword) Companies should take better care of their workers. Some companies can pay more and don't.

The problem is you have a framework you must work within. It has to be within the economic reality of your business.

Not every job can pay $15/hr .. or even $10hr. We have to let people negotiate freely with their labor.

As for loyalty. Frankly, that's dead. The minute Robert Noyce and the boys decided to leave Shockley and strike it out on their own... a new culture in America was born. Forget about loyalty in business. You're a mercenary and that's how it will always be. No one is gonna stay at a job when they can leave and get a raise at another job. Just like no company will pay a worker a salary if they aren't financially able to do it.

I'm fine with all of that as long as there is no government intervention into people negotiating wages amongst themselves. This is just the new normal.
02-10-2019 07:22 PM
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Post: #83
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 06:54 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:42 PM)zigZag Wrote:  Ultimately the problem with you is that you see "Companies and employers" as abstract entities. They aren't people to you... they are just entities there where you punch in and get money from... and that's the issue why you hold your hateful views towards them. You don't see them as people. This is typical mentality of communists.

Sorry, bro. Let me grab my little violin for the poor employers and mega corporations Laugh

Dude, please. Get outta here with your moralizing and your pop psychology. You think these companies think of me or anyone else as anything other than a pissant? A job is a transaction. I provide a service and you pay me. I bet you anything the average CEO has more contempt for his employees than vice versa. The days of guys like Henry Ford and Carnegie are long gone.

It's funny cuz I held pretty much the same opinion as you did up until 4-5 months ago... and now I'm leaning in the position of ZigZag. It's not per say that CEO's and corporations don't give a shit about us... but more so that Money is ABSOLUTELY UNEMOTIONAL... and that if you're not

unemotional as well... then the person above you will toss you out to avoid being tossed out! Plain & Simple! And the alternative, as discussed in a book I recently read named the Millionaire Fastlane by MJ Demarco... is to become the CEO... and be good to your employee by giving them guidance & options.

But the most detrimental aspect of your point of view like ZigZag mentioned is of you coming across as anti-business... which really is the worst thing you could do for yourself... since you're essentially pegging yourself, albeit unconsciously, to be an employee for life!

If you already have a great skill and make a lot then it's alright... but if you don't... this attitude could keep you chained to misery! And for anyone that's unskilled reading this... you better get going FAST... because once Driveless cars will be the norm... a whole lot of shit will be sinking... FAST! Now's the time to get ready to avoid being unskilled & competing with the heard!
02-10-2019 07:35 PM
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worldwidetraveler Offline
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Post: #84
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
(02-10-2019 07:22 PM)zigZag Wrote:  I don't disagree that SOME (keyword) Companies should take better care of their workers. Some companies can pay more and don't.

The problem is you have a framework you must work within. It has to be within the economic reality of your business.

Not every job can pay $15/hr .. or even $10hr. We have to let people negotiate freely with their labor.

As for loyalty. Frankly, that's dead. The minute Robert Noyce and the boys decided to leave Shockley and strike it out on their own... a new culture in America was born. Forget about loyalty in business. You're a mercenary and that's how it will always be. No one is gonna stay at a job when they can leave and get a raise at another job. Just like no company will pay a worker a salary if they aren't financially able to do it.

I'm fine with all of that as long as there is no government intervention into people negotiating wages amongst themselves. This is just the new normal.

I don't see frameworks as being set in stone.

You got one burger place that can pay managers 160k a year and workers $16 an hour while another couldn't be profitable at those numbers without having to raise prices.

I know a guy who has worked at a convenience store chain since he got out of college. Makes close to six figures as a manager and will have close to 2 million waiting for him when he retires. I don't imagine that is the norm for that line of stores.

I believe businesses could adapt and change their frameworks if needed. It then becomes a matter of whether they need to change or not.

I also prefer no government involvement.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2019 07:51 PM by worldwidetraveler.)
02-10-2019 07:48 PM
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66Scorpio Offline
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Post: #85
RE: What is your opinion of welfare?
Funny shit: when I was in business school or the army I was considered a bleeding heart; and when I got to a left coast law school I was evil incarnate.

I personally support a single payer health care option that covers the basics and catastrophic care, as well as a basic income that would replace welfare, pogey, social security and such on a base level with private sector insurance to cover things off.

I have elaborated elsewhere.
02-11-2019 09:03 AM
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