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Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
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jimukr75 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
(01-08-2019 06:21 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 08:00 PM)rungoodinc Wrote:  I am a divorce attorney. Pre-nups are fine but there are typically rules about whether they are enforceable or not.

Someone who makes money selling pre-nups and then makes money getting them overturned is not really someone we are going to listen to for advice on the matter, is it?

In Australia they are worthless, I'd hate to see a brother think he is safe, when he is not.
Hypothetical scenarios: If there is a bench warrant issued in NY and I have moved to CA assuming the following scenarios what happens?
1)NY does not know where I am. I get pulled over in CA.
2)NY knows and I get pulled over. CA then releases me on habeas corpus. What's the chance NY still sends someone?
[/quote]

If NY doesn't know where you live then its a moot point point since there would be no way they would have filed the contempt warrant in CA since they don't know where you are at.
First know the habeas corpus laws of the state you are in but if NO ONE is coming for you then they have no reason to hold you. If they release you why would NY send someone? The "sending" is just for transport.

Want to know something funny/sick? Some states don't even transport felons. PA has been known to let go of felons because they won't transport them and wait for other state to pick them up. NY and I assume most states will only send someone if it is close by so you don't usually have much to worry about on other side of country. But certain states that have a lot of NYers might get a visit.

One thing to think about..airtravel. Since 9/11 the major airports , customs agents can run you on the state databases. Thing is NO ONE can tell you if the actual agents do it or will do it but technically they can. If they did and it hit..NO ONE can tell you what they would do since Fed policy is secret in these matters. So to be careful if you are wanted in CA you might want to avoid CA airport customs. So fly out of Seattle instead!

Quote:Best to move your money offshore, don't think it'll matter if it's money you had prior to divorce but I'd still still move it offshore or into an investment vehicle offshore that cannot be traced by any forensic accounting and let that 500k build. My way is the masculine way, it doesn't rely on government.

Perhaps for you but for Americans that is a bad way to go. You see, unlike little Australia, USA(Roman empire of today) has a very long arm and hiding money and not paying taxes on it is CRIMINAL. They will get you if they find out and it is becoming easier to find out everyday. Just park it offshore and pay your taxes and USA plays nice. Civil contempt charge is not criminal so Feds not involved. Also family lawyers can get involved by getting offshore gov'ts to get involved if fraud involved. Remember the crime isn't NOT sharing assets..it is contempt of court.

Quote:Someone who makes money selling pre-nups and then makes money getting them overturned is not really someone we are going to listen to for advice on the matter, is it?
Haha, well isn't that what most lawyers do? Either have NO lawyer or both get one. Lawyers are needed to fight other lawyers. Always remember that your lawyer sometimes represents the other gender and does the crappy shit they do. That being said, they try to get them overturned because the client wants that. They just doing their job. Most don't get overturned if jurisdiction respects them but lawyers will try to get them overturned for non compliance. Each state is different.
A big reason they get overturned is the duress issue." He won't marry me unless I sign so I cried and sign".

Hiding assets is another. If they can claim they "didn't know" later on. When you write one you should go over every account you own and write it down on a paper and give her a copy to sign and notarize. These are the details the lawyers argue about. When I wrote mine I played the lawyer side and wrote it to stand against the main reasons they are overturned in the 1st place.
YOU also should have a separate sworn statement where the spouse signs saying that they realize that their standard of living will decrease in a divorce based on asset division. That is another sneaky low life lawyer tactic. They will argue the spouse didn't realize the consequences. Cover all the bases and your contract is more binding.
01-09-2019 12:50 PM
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mpr Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
I have an even simpler solution. Don't get married, and don't live in a common law marriage state. Seriously what advantages does marriage give you? The only advantages I can think of are tax planning if you marry a much lower earning spouse. But even that advantage is negated by the legal risk of divorce.

"Those who will not risk cannot win." -John Paul Jones
01-10-2019 03:05 AM
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Hypugamy Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
(01-10-2019 03:05 AM)mpr Wrote:  I have an even simpler solution. Don't get married, and don't live in a common law marriage state. Seriously what advantages does marriage give you? The only advantages I can think of are tax planning if you marry a much lower earning spouse. But even that advantage is negated by the legal risk of divorce.

How many guys get married after taking the red pill? It's impossible to say, but my guess is not too many.
01-10-2019 01:27 PM
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Dilated Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
This is the thread that gave me the impetus to join this forum. I am going through a divorce right now and have a pre-nup (PNA) So, I can share what I know.

*Caveats- this is for the state of GA. We have no kids, mortgage, or business. It doesn’t get any cleaner than this.

Vital stats:
Age 37, wife 36
Income of $100k, wife within 10%
Household assets ~$700,000 (all investable)
Length of marriage- 2.5 years
PNA terms- 50/50 split of marital property excluding 401k’s. No alimony

Who you marry (or if you marry) will be the most important financial decision you ever make. I had a sense this was true when I told my future wife 2 months into dating that I would require a PNA. She was pissed as you would expect.

I think it’s important to be up front as soon as possible.

The stage- September 27 I leave for work in the morning. Everything is fine. I kiss my wife goodbye and give the dog a pet. I return home at 18:30 and the condo is cleared out.

All of her stuff was gone. She had moved out, only leaving a note. Very classy.

I check my bank account...she liquidated half of it ($20,000). Five days later a courier serves me with the complaint (divorce). I have 45 days to get a lawyer and answer her interrogatories (discovery questions).

Fast forward to today. What does she want? She wants the marital property to be split 50/50, which is different than what the PNA states. She wants the 401k’s to be material.

Why the fight if I have a PNA? The lawyer that drafted my PNA didn’t think to mention that not disclosing all assets opens you up to litigation. I failed to disclose a pension that I didn’t even know I had.

Her answers to our interrogatories are due in 10 days. We’ll see major movement at that point.

Possible outcomes if we can’t mediate:
-spend $10,000 to go to court to get PNA enforced
-spend $10,000 to go to court, PNA gets subverted, she gets half of all marital assets which is a paltry $6,000 difference compared to the PNA terms. Yes, fucking $6,000.
-spend $10,000 to go to court, PNA gets subverted, and the judge uses my superior separate property to justify giving my wife >50% of the marital property. Would be roughly $27,000 net.

The ultimate goal is to mitigate expenses and settle so each party gets a small win (ie. $3,000).

Make no mistake gentlemen, the same woman that is offended about your business-like approach to PNA’s before marriage will be 110% business when the divorce happens.

Do
-get separate lawyers (no conflict of interest)
-execute PNA under no duress and with plenty of time before wedding (read months)
-disclose all assets and encourage your PNA attorney to think of all possible assets
-keep it reasonably fair. A judge will throw out an unreasonable PNA.
-track all assets and be 100% transparent about them

Don’t
-hide money
-be overtly hostile during marriage (she may be audio recording)
-co-mingle marital assets with separate assets
-assume she’s principled and wouldn’t try to hide money

The #1 rule is to know where you’re exposed. . Inheritances and separate property before marriage aren’t for the taking unless you co-mingle them. But, they can be used justify giving her more of the marital property. Got to love the blatant wealth redistribution.

Certainly, being armed with all of the information will allow you to make good decisions

**Kids, properties, and businesses make this immensely more fucked up.

Good luck.

Send any questions you have.
01-11-2019 04:22 PM
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Krabbypatty Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
Thanks everyone. I’m learning a lot from this forum. Would appreciate if someone could answer this for me. If someone has acquired multiple real estate property investments worth $1M before marriage. Then, when he got married he accumulated another $300k worth of assets. If he gets divorced, the wife can only claim half of the $300k, right? To avoid comingling, is it enough to have a separate bank account for the pre-marriage investment properties?
01-13-2019 05:37 AM
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eradicator Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
Quote:Thanks everyone. I’m learning a lot from this forum. Would appreciate if someone could answer this for me. If someone has acquired multiple real estate property investments worth $1M before marriage. Then, when he got married he accumulated another $300k worth of assets. If he gets divorced, the wife can only claim half of the $300k, right?

Correct. That’s true even with no pre nup



Quote:To avoid comingling, is it enough to have a separate bank account for the pre-marriage investment properties?

Just get a pre nup. Also remember divorce laws vary by state.

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01-13-2019 05:57 AM
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RawGod Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
Call me naive, but I didn't know that pre-nups were often ruled invalid if signed under "duress". Where is the basis for that in the rest of law? Can I throw out anything my employer makes me sign because of "duress"? Can I say that my marriage is invalid because my wife made me sign the marriage papers under duress? Ha.

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01-13-2019 07:27 AM
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jimukr75 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
(01-13-2019 07:27 AM)RawGod Wrote:  Call me naive, but I didn't know that pre-nups were often ruled invalid if signed under "duress". Where is the basis for that in the rest of law? Can I throw out anything my employer makes me sign because of "duress"? Can I say that my marriage is invalid because my wife made me sign the marriage papers under duress? Ha.

Life is not fair. You are right it is completely wrong. All other contracts and partnerships have rules but it is one of the most common reasons. Wife says she signed because he wouldn't marry her otherwise.

Quote:Thanks everyone. I’m learning a lot from this forum. Would appreciate if someone could answer this for me. If someone has acquired multiple real estate property investments worth $1M before marriage. Then, when he got married he accumulated another $300k worth of assets. If he gets divorced, the wife can only claim half of the $300k, right?

Yes and NO. Depends on the state and what assets were used to acquire those new assets. For example in Texas you have 1 million and it earns 200k during the marriage that 200k is considered marital asset. In NYS the 200k would be separate property.
One problem is if the new asset earns"active" income that income/asset can be considered business income and the income is marital. If the asset just earns bank interest or capital gains it is considered passive income and remains separate property. Every state can view it differently.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 11:07 AM by jimukr75.)
01-13-2019 11:04 AM
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Bluto Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
(01-07-2019 08:00 PM)rungoodinc Wrote:  I am a divorce attorney. Pre-nups are fine but there are typically rules about whether they are enforceable or not. Make sure to lawyer up so that you don't get screwed by these down the road, it should not take too many hours for your attorney to get it done. It shouldn't cost more $2k-$3k.

And when it comes to getting her to sign it, tell her to get an attorney as well. Try to make the process as business-like as possible.

What type of documentation can you get from the other attorney to prove that she did review it with her attorney, was not under duress, and understood what she was signing? I know that she would be entitled to attorney client privilege, but is there usually something that can put together like an affidavit, or a letter from the firm explaining what they went over? An invoice from her attorney can seem rather vague and flimsy to me.

"Stop playing by 1950's rules when everyone else is playing by 1984."
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01-13-2019 11:40 AM
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Bluto Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
(01-08-2019 08:01 AM)christpuncher Wrote:  I still do not understand how a 2nd lawyer does anything other than cost me twice, when the prenup is properly set up, following the "typical rules" you mention, and everybody signs it. Should there be an accompanying document that states to the intent of "All parties have read and been made aware of the contents of this document, and have had all questions regarding interpretation of the contents addressed and explained by (Insert lawyer)"?

Would you use her attorney in the event of a divorce?(I know someone who did and it was his biggest mistake in his life, his marriage was his second) Getting her a reputable attorney to review the documents with her only helps your case in the event of a divorce. You have a reported 500K in assets, and you are quibbling over something that costs less than 1% of that, assuming that you pay for it all. By the way, talk with your attorney, but if she is not physically paying the bill for her own attorney, than a conflict of interest may be argued, which can be argued to void the pre-nup.

Follow the advise of your attorney on this one and have him recommend a few reputable law firms for her to go see. Even if he says that paying for the attorney's fees is allowable and not a conflict of interest than I would still recommend her to pay the bill using her credit card, check, etc. and pay her after you see the paid bill.(cash preferred) Either a pre-nup is worth it to you or it is not. It is your life to live.

"Stop playing by 1950's rules when everyone else is playing by 1984."
- Leonard D Neubache
01-13-2019 12:12 PM
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jimukr75 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Getting her to sign a Prenup - Strategies
Quote:ollow the advise of your attorney on this one and have him recommend a few reputable law firms for her to go see. Even if he says that paying for the attorney's fees is allowable and not a conflict of interest than I would still recommend her to pay the bill using her credit card, check, etc. and pay her after you see the paid bill.(cash preferred) Either a pre-nup is worth it to you or it is not. It is your life to live.

He could just use AVVO and get a lawyer there. The lawyer NEVER sees who paid on credit card. The main thing is that EACH picks own lawyer. For a childless , business less marriage this doesn't have to be complicated.
Quote:What type of documentation can you get from the other attorney to prove that she did review it with her attorney, was not under duress, and understood what she was signing? I know that she would be entitled to attorney client privilege, but is there usually something that can put together like an affidavit, or a letter from the firm explaining what they went over? An invoice from her attorney can seem rather vague and flimsy to me.
[/quote]

You don't need documentation from the lawyer , justhave her and yourself sign an affidavit. On the affidavit it is even better if your sheet has your lawyers name and her sheet has her lawyers name. She is signing in front of a notary that she was given legal counsel by blah blah blah and that everything was explained and she agrees with signing the pre nupt. That is all that is needed. She then can't claim she didn't have a lawyer later on look over the contract.
Also have additional affidavits.
1. have one that shows that all KNOWN assets at the time were disclosed and that she and you understand the financial situation AT the time( every yr or 2 you can update assets sheet and both sign you reviewed it).
2. Have another affidavit that shows she signed it without duress and in her right mind and that she fully understood the document and her legal state rights(list the
sub law number).
3. A good one to add: If she is the DISADVANTAGED spouse(one with little/no assets/income) have her sign that she understands her rights under the contract and that she UNDERSTANDS she is giving up rights that she would have if she didn't sign and that her financial standard of living can/will be lower because of it and also have standard of living after divorce will likely be lower. I think this is an important one. This will hopefully prevent the GREED factor because what she gonna do? She would be committing perjury if she thought she should get more to MAINTAIN a certain lifestyle. Infact I think the affidavits are just as important as the document because it covers the arguments that are made that fighting the contract can be considered perjury.

In addition, a clause should be made that if one disputes the pre nupt it will be done at their own expense and if they don't get the document(or whole document) overturned they will be responsible for both parties legal expenses. The legality of this depends on the state but this MIGHT give pause to challenge the pre nupt and in fact it might give a greedy lawyer pause because if she loses she might not be able to pay him timely if she lacks funds.

Other guy mentioned he is in GA. Every state is different. In my state for example, challenging and winning to break a pre nupt doesn't automatically break whole agreement. Just the clause that was deemed invalid/illegal so it is good to have MANY clauses in it.Worst scenario she overturns one clause or 2 and others are kept but you can put in clauses that are NON negotiable. What that means is if she breaks one clause legally another clause might specify that if clause( A) is deemed invalid then clause (D) is negated. Make sure clause (D) is something that gives her some benefit. Therefore her win can be a loss for her someplace else.

A good pre nupt/post nupt should be written in such a way that
1. It covers the most common mistakes that overturn one.
2. It be a PITA for her and a lawyer to argue.For example the affidavits make her look like she is lying if she goes against them.
3. Fighting it can actually cause her to loose something she was getting easily before.
4. She can shoulder the whole expense if she looses. This includes your expenses. This might even discourage a lawyer.

Lastly, understand state laws. In NY for example some clauses can be made invalid if spouse will end up in poverty. Write that you both understand that and efforts will be worked out by both parties, civil, to prevent this, and spouse plans to look for work in case of being unemployed. I think this is important since some wives are sit at home and lazy and some even will quit a job they have to get a payday. By putting this she is basically saying she isn't going to do that she has every intention to work to keep herself out of poverty and if she is SHORT of the poverty limit both will make efforts to help the other until corrected. This will avoid big support in cases where support might be needed because many state laws only guarantee not falling below poverty. Again it is about covering bases.

Quote:To avoid comingling, is it enough to have a separate bank account for the pre-marriage investment properties?

I have multiple accounts that ONLY have non marital money in it. That being said it is generally acceptable to co mingle for a brief period. For example, you get paid money owed to you from a personal injury suit and put it in the joint account right away, but you then transfer it out to a new CD. This shows it was done for convenience and NOT an intent to SHARE.But best to avoid this and tbh avoid having joint accounts unless it is to put a tiny bit of joint emergency/expense funds in it.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2019 02:01 PM by jimukr75.)
01-13-2019 01:52 PM
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