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Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
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Fortis Away
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Post: #26
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
Depends. If we achieve immortality in this lifetime then I could see myself skipping kids, but even then I might still want some. They seem pretty cool if you're not a totally shitty parent

A few guys have remarked I seem like I'd be a good father. This even came from a couple of dudes with kids. I wonder.....

Let us try to maintain a higher standard of life than that of the multitude, but not a contrary standard; otherwise, we shall frighten away and repel the very persons whom we are trying to improve.

-Seneca.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 09:22 PM by Fortis.)
01-07-2019 09:21 PM
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MikeS Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 08:49 PM)chicane Wrote:  I would love to have children, but I haven't been able to find a woman to create a family with. I've been looking for many years.

Yep. Potentially big issue there. I've banged quite a lot of women - not going to feel I'm missing out on much more there anymore if I should find myself being a father and (hopefully) faithful husband/partner soon - but only genuinely cared, loved, whatever for a handful of them, and of those only a couple might have been what I considered potentially good mother and wife material (but that was years before I was anywhere close to consider the topic myself), plus one more recent but also likely more problematic and with too much baggage.
01-07-2019 10:15 PM
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rpg Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
Having a kid is a wondrous thing. Having a wife can be not so much.
01-07-2019 10:46 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
No interest in having kids, and I'm well over 40 so I don't expect this to change. I keep on hearing people saying it's the most wonderful thing in the world, but my conclusion at this point is that I'm built differently to 95% of men. As the Greeks said, "know thyself".

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01-07-2019 10:52 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
The process of finding a wife vs finding a bang are so fundamentally different that when guys say I've banged all these hoes but haven't found much wife material... I'm not surprised!

Although my wife is a Russian girl born in a Muslim country with traditional values, so I certainly empathize with anyone trying to get married in the Anglosphere.
01-07-2019 11:00 PM
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BaatumMania Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
I might consider it with a high value female - aesthetics above a 6, has a career and most importantly isn't in debt (got to be careful with those "educated" women after all). Thing is I haven't had a women like that who liked me. Thing is a woman like that might even say she doesn't want a kid and I think I could live with it.

Now the 95%+ of women I've met through Tinder, Bars and Daygame no way ~ have yet to meet a woman in those 3 avenues who wasn't a fuckup in some regard.
01-07-2019 11:08 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 11:08 PM)BaatumMania Wrote:  ...has a career...


Zero need for this at all when choosing a wife.
In fact it's a red flag.
01-07-2019 11:12 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
For me, it's comes down to a simple question (as someone in a LTR):

Despite all the landmines, struggles, and sacrifices, do I want to experience the challenge of molding a human being into something maybe great?

That's about the only guarantee you have when it comes to having kids and even then, the courts can take that away from you.

For me, I feel like a strong foundation is vitally important. The stronger the foundation, the more likely the experience will be enjoyable and successful.

A strong foundation consists of:

1. A good woman.
2. Good extended family.
3. Money for high quality things like education, medical needs, hired help like nannies/au pairs.
4. A legal structure that doesn't punish sole-providers.
5. A culture that supports families and incentives keeping them together vs blowing them up.

Suffice to say, the above for many people is hard to come by just on some fronts. And for me: the stronger the foundation, the more likely I'm willing to take up the challenge. And that's only assuming I want the experience in the first place.

Right now, I don't really have a strong interest in the experience. I like the child-free benefits for now and feel that being child-free is a better lifestyle than attempting the family/child deal. This due to my own controllable factors but also due to some things largely beyond my immediate control, like the US family court system for instance.

I could see where if my foundation improves, I'd be more inclined to take the chance since the downsides and risk would be minimized. In my mind, I rather do it right or not do it at all. Going half-way on something of this magnitude with no escape seems like a great way to set myself up for frustration, pain, and disappointment.

While I make this sound very academic and clinical, the truth is I have seen WAY too many examples of men who didn't get the foundation right and were absolutely miserable for decades after taking the plunge. They don't hate their kids or anything but it is overwhelmingly obvious that they feel like something critical is missing in their lives; be it a good wife, money, time, respect, a fair legal system, etc.

The counter-arguments I've heard:

Sense of legacy/impact on society - Mine isn't wrapped up in whether I have children or not. No one gives a shit about Albert Einstein's or George Washington's parents or kids, for example.

Mold human being based on your values - I know from experience, you can have a major positive impact on a person's life without being a direct blood relative.

Someone to take care of you in your elder years - I see that as an unfair burden to place upon someone intentionally. Won't he/she want to focus on taking care of their own family?

Someone to love you - No guarantees there. Mom/culture could pollute the kids mind. Kid could die before you; seen it happen up-close. That terrible shit breaks people forever.

You'll never have the perfect foundation - Not perfect but you can have things reasonably tilted in your favor.

Ultimately, I think what's important is whatever you do in life, you make a positive impact that goes beyond yourself. Be it having a kid and raising it with good values, trying to cure a disease, mentoring someone in need of a father figure, or building a country from nothing into something. At a minimum, find someway to contribute to the greater society and culture in a positive fashion. I might never have kids but I'd would feel mighty good knowing I fixed the laws so that families are incentivized to stay together vs as of now, incentivized to blow them up. You can contribute to the concept of the family unit while not having a family; as bizarre as that sounds at first.

But we'll see how I feel next year.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 11:32 PM by The Black Knight.)
01-07-2019 11:20 PM
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Cobra Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
Don't blame the west and it's liberal shitshow culture for not finding the right woman to have kids with.

Find a woman somewhere else if that's the problem.

My 3 children are a blessing from god.

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01-07-2019 11:30 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 11:12 PM)Caduceus Wrote:  
(01-07-2019 11:08 PM)BaatumMania Wrote:  ...has a career...


Zero need for this at all when choosing a wife.
In fact it's a red flag.

Yeah I know. I've tried to date women who had educated professions (or studying to become one) and then they would only make "time" biweekly or once a month to see me. It seems like women who work in those fields are always juggling 5 guys in their life.

So yeah I'm not getting married nor having kids because good women are rare and even a good woman can go bad thanks to the Divorce Industry.
01-07-2019 11:33 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
As you may have read, I had some hard health problems a few years back. Almost died. The only thing that relieved the black unmentionable terror of those times, the only single thing, was the faces of my children.

When they were first born, I took one look at them and said..."Ok, now this is why men say they would die for their children, and they mean it". And I would. In a heartbeat.

My wife is a good woman. No longer young, her body is worn out, but she grew my children inside her self and pushed them out screaming with nothing except minor painkillers, then defended and raised them with a ferocity that was mind blowing. That's why I chose her.

Maybe if I hadn't found her I would not of done all of this. She was the right genetic match to make my children beautiful and I knew it. Did I sacrifice everything to build us a house and get the food, the bills paid, the doctor visits? Yep. That takes a shit ton of money.

If you don't have the woman and the money to make it happen, probably don't do it.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2019 11:54 PM by MrLemon.)
01-07-2019 11:52 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 11:30 PM)Cobra Wrote:  Find a woman somewhere else if that's the problem.

I would choose to remain childfree if I stayed in the West.

Fortunately, the world is a much bigger place than that.
01-08-2019 12:09 AM
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TripleG Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
Just a few thoughts here. Let’s not forget that some of the greatest people in history have been childless and the greatest one of all, Jesus, also did not have a kid. IMHO it is better to be childless than to have a kid with a wife/partner you can’t stand and eventually divorce and have those kids be raised without a stable family structure; just look at most inner cities, there the family dynamics are F upped leading to a multitude of problems. Also, Those who find a “lifelong” partner who they love are few and far between (especially in the west) and i would say get lucky and are truly blessed. Unfortunately game doesn’t really teach you how to find that partner, more just how to bang, so like many guys in the west even as i approach 40 i am still searching for the one. For the time being though hobbies, career, friends, and extended family are enough to keep me busy; once in a while i do see the occasional couple who are in a loving relationship and that can be depressing if one is still single past a certain age so in the back of my mind theres always that alarm bell of growing too old by myself. It is a tough puzzle to have in life with no clear cut answer.
01-08-2019 12:40 AM
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Laner Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
Not sure I should chime in here as I have kids. But, until 5 years ago I was pretty on board with the Child Free life.

In hindsight, those five year previous I had been deceiving myself. I banged a bunch of women, traveled the world - often to bang women, worked out like a fiend, ate meat and veggies every day, hung out at fancy bars and high end restaurants. It seemed like I was living the life. And I was, I look back at 2013 Laner and think of how cool I was and how much pussy I had. But the truth is, I would still trade that without hesitation to have started fatherhood earlier, to have blasted a couple more babies in while I had the chance.

My close friends are mostly childfree, and their lives still revolve around fancy meals, expensive booze and cool new hobbies. But one thing that is starting to happen as we hit 40 is the rich food gives them heartburn, booze leads to blow, and travel is a painful grind through shitty international hubs and an over population of budget travelers.
01-08-2019 01:04 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
"Friends" can never ever "replace" your own flesh and blood kids. No idea where some of you get that from. I lost most of my friends when I had a child, it seemed like they didn't wanna look at him.

I do not regret it a moment
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 01:50 AM by PetiteMinded.)
01-08-2019 01:49 AM
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Post: #41
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
I've thought about starting a thread like this in the "Life" section, but maybe this would be just as good a place to ask.

I have searched the forum and haven't found anything pertinent.

Thing is, it's a very sensitive subject; just about as sensitive as it gets.

What about guys that can't have kids? I'm talking about sterility. Personally, I've never been tested and I also know I've never got a chick pregnant. (I've banged girls without a condom but I'm really really good about pulling out.) Does that mean my pull-out method is perfect? I thought there was no such thing. Maybe I'm shooting blanks.

I have other reasons to suspect I might be sterile but I just don't know. The obvious thing to do would be go and get checked, but my way of thinking is, if I don't KNOW for sure, I'll always have plausible deniability.

Because of how devastating it is for a man to be sterile, I'm not sure anybody would feel comfortable admitting it, even on an anonymous forum, but I am definitely curious if there's anyone else like me that either suspects, or KNOWS, they will never have biological children.

Being single in my 40s, I've already more or less accepted that I'll never be a father, regardless of my potential sterility, and I have to say, it's a terrible feeling. Yes, kids sucks. They're loud as hell, rude, messy, all that. But they're also the whole reason we're here. When I see a young couple with a baby it makes me almost or more jealous than I when I see a guy with an amazingly hot girl on his arm. Knowing we only get one shot at life, and I essentially squandered mine....it's pretty devastating.
01-08-2019 02:04 AM
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Luther Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
I certainly am one of the minority who is meant to be a life long bachelor. I find even being in a LTR as a huge distraction from my core energy and focus. Crippling in fact. I couldn’t even imagine taking on the commitment of fatherhood, although I think I would be a good father, since I was raised properly myself.
01-08-2019 03:50 AM
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atlant Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
If you're white and voluntarily choosing not to have kids despite favorable circumstances (healthy relationship/marriage, financially well off, in good personal health), then you're an enemy of Western civilisation. Simple as that.
01-08-2019 04:08 AM
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RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-07-2019 11:20 PM)The Black Knight Wrote:  For me, it's comes down to a simple question (as someone in a LTR):

Despite all the landmines, struggles, and sacrifices, do I want to experience the challenge of molding a human being into something maybe great?

That's about the only guarantee you have when it comes to having kids and even then, the courts can take that away from you.

For me, I feel like a strong foundation is vitally important. The stronger the foundation, the more likely the experience will be enjoyable and successful.

A strong foundation consists of:

1. A good woman.
2. Good extended family.
3. Money for high quality things like education, medical needs, hired help like nannies/au pairs.
4. A legal structure that doesn't punish sole-providers.
5. A culture that supports families and incentives keeping them together vs blowing them up.

Suffice to say, the above for many people is hard to come by just on some fronts. And for me: the stronger the foundation, the more likely I'm willing to take up the challenge. And that's only assuming I want the experience in the first place.

Right now, I don't really have a strong interest in the experience. I like the child-free benefits for now and feel that being child-free is a better lifestyle than attempting the family/child deal. This due to my own controllable factors but also due to some things largely beyond my immediate control, like the US family court system for instance.

I could see where if my foundation improves, I'd be more inclined to take the chance since the downsides and risk would be minimized. In my mind, I rather do it right or not do it at all. Going half-way on something of this magnitude with no escape seems like a great way to set myself up for frustration, pain, and disappointment.

While I make this sound very academic and clinical, the truth is I have seen WAY too many examples of men who didn't get the foundation right and were absolutely miserable for decades after taking the plunge. They don't hate their kids or anything but it is overwhelmingly obvious that they feel like something critical is missing in their lives; be it a good wife, money, time, respect, a fair legal system, etc.

The counter-arguments I've heard:

Sense of legacy/impact on society - Mine isn't wrapped up in whether I have children or not. No one gives a shit about Albert Einstein's or George Washington's parents or kids, for example.

Mold human being based on your values - I know from experience, you can have a major positive impact on a person's life without being a direct blood relative.

Someone to take care of you in your elder years - I see that as an unfair burden to place upon someone intentionally. Won't he/she want to focus on taking care of their own family?

Someone to love you - No guarantees there. Mom/culture could pollute the kids mind. Kid could die before you; seen it happen up-close. That terrible shit breaks people forever.

You'll never have the perfect foundation - Not perfect but you can have things reasonably tilted in your favor.

Ultimately, I think what's important is whatever you do in life, you make a positive impact that goes beyond yourself. Be it having a kid and raising it with good values, trying to cure a disease, mentoring someone in need of a father figure, or building a country from nothing into something. At a minimum, find someway to contribute to the greater society and culture in a positive fashion. I might never have kids but I'd would feel mighty good knowing I fixed the laws so that families are incentivized to stay together vs as of now, incentivized to blow them up. You can contribute to the concept of the family unit while not having a family; as bizarre as that sounds at first.

But we'll see how I feel next year.

Agree with this 100%
01-08-2019 04:17 AM
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Post: #45
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-08-2019 12:40 AM)TripleG Wrote:  Just a few thoughts here. Let’s not forget that some of the greatest people in history have been childless and the greatest one of all, Jesus, also did not have a kid. IMHO it is better to be childless than to have a kid with a wife/partner you can’t stand and eventually divorce and have those kids be raised without a stable family structure; just look at most inner cities, there the family dynamics are F upped leading to a multitude of problems. Also, Those who find a “lifelong” partner who they love are few and far between (especially in the west) and i would say get lucky and are truly blessed. Unfortunately game doesn’t really teach you how to find that partner, more just how to bang, so like many guys in the west even as i approach 40 i am still searching for the one. For the time being though hobbies, career, friends, and extended family are enough to keep me busy; once in a while i do see the occasional couple who are in a loving relationship and that can be depressing if one is still single past a certain age so in the back of my mind theres always that alarm bell of growing too old by myself. It is a tough puzzle to have in life with no clear cut answer.

Emmanuel Macron , Angela Merkel , Theresa May , Paolo Gentilon , Mark Rutte , Nicola Sturgeon & Jean-Claude Juncker also don't have kids.
The greatest people from history Smile
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 04:17 AM by Polniy_Sostav.)
01-08-2019 04:17 AM
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Post: #46
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-08-2019 01:04 AM)Laner Wrote:  Not sure I should chime in here as I have kids. But, until 5 years ago I was pretty on board with the Child Free life.

In hindsight, those five year previous I had been deceiving myself. I banged a bunch of women, traveled the world - often to bang women, worked out like a fiend, ate meat and veggies every day, hung out at fancy bars and high end restaurants. It seemed like I was living the life. And I was, I look back at 2013 Laner and think of how cool I was and how much pussy I had. But the truth is, I would still trade that without hesitation to have started fatherhood earlier, to have blasted a couple more babies in while I had the chance.

My close friends are mostly childfree, and their lives still revolve around fancy meals, expensive booze and cool new hobbies. But one thing that is starting to happen as we hit 40 is the rich food gives them heartburn, booze leads to blow, and travel is a painful grind through shitty international hubs and an over population of budget travelers.

Have you ever thought about travelling with your wife could give you fantastic memories ?
01-08-2019 04:19 AM
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Baptistao Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-08-2019 04:08 AM)atlant Wrote:  If you're white and voluntarily choosing not to have kids despite favorable circumstances (healthy relationship/marriage, financially well off, in good personal health), then you're an enemy of Western civilisation. Simple as that.

How about marrying and reproducing with non-white women? Let's say African. Is that favorable for the Western civilization too?
01-08-2019 04:31 AM
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PetiteMinded Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
No way man. Stick with your own. Read up on the Kalergi plan
01-08-2019 04:36 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
(01-08-2019 02:04 AM)etwsake Wrote:  I've thought about starting a thread like this in the "Life" section, but maybe this would be just as good a place to ask.

I have searched the forum and haven't found anything pertinent.

Thing is, it's a very sensitive subject; just about as sensitive as it gets.

What about guys that can't have kids? I'm talking about sterility. Personally, I've never been tested and I also know I've never got a chick pregnant. (I've banged girls without a condom but I'm really really good about pulling out.) Does that mean my pull-out method is perfect? I thought there was no such thing. Maybe I'm shooting blanks.

I have other reasons to suspect I might be sterile but I just don't know. The obvious thing to do would be go and get checked, but my way of thinking is, if I don't KNOW for sure, I'll always have plausible deniability.

Because of how devastating it is for a man to be sterile, I'm not sure anybody would feel comfortable admitting it, even on an anonymous forum, but I am definitely curious if there's anyone else like me that either suspects, or KNOWS, they will never have biological children.

Being single in my 40s, I've already more or less accepted that I'll never be a father, regardless of my potential sterility, and I have to say, it's a terrible feeling. Yes, kids sucks. They're loud as hell, rude, messy, all that. But they're also the whole reason we're here. When I see a young couple with a baby it makes me almost or more jealous than I when I see a guy with an amazingly hot girl on his arm. Knowing we only get one shot at life, and I essentially squandered mine....it's pretty devastating.

That's harsh. Sorry man. Remember that men like you have been heroes in a thousand other ways, saving children who might not have been theirs. There are millions of children in the world desperate for any help. Any at all.

Saw a video yesterday of a firefighter who went to the wedding of a girl who he saved from death as a toddler. He gave away the bride.
01-08-2019 04:40 AM
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RE: Who is Choosing to Stay Childfree?
What struck me here is how scared people are of life , and in general , losing their freedom. I am 32 but I feel ashamed to only have 3 kids. I would like 5 , now my wife is only 27 and she needs a bit of a rest , but hoping to get a 4th one someday as part of a compromise with her (YEs I am leading , but ultimately she has it in her body).

The entire process of gaming is of course to have sex and more interaction with women. But gaming as self-improvement has always been a way for me to reach the ultimate goal which is to find the adequate woman to form a family. In these times and days where Satan is ruling both morally and financially , the only natural remedy for this is to make a lot of kids , care about them, give them the right values.

The process is much deeper than "I am scared that my son kills himself" or "that my daughter marries an afghan refugee" . Yes of course these are normal fears , I am worried that my son will be a drug user or that my daughter will become a slut , but the challenge to make sure this won't happen , or at least reduce the risks , is a very noble one. I am surrounded with people who mostly dont have kids and are 30+. And what do they do ? Yes they have hobbies but.... most of the time they end up drinking alcohol like teenagers and they spend money on stupid stuff to compensate for some biological vacuity, and find a way to not get bored. As time passes by , there is a superior force which brings them more and more isolated from the rest of the society and bitter about life. While I can understand that some strong men who have had a difficult life can handle being single until the end of their life , I think that women are not programmed to age alone.

I also believe that there is a misconception. Most people who don't have kids only have rough visions of what life with a kid can be. They think that kids will throw tantrums every two minutes. The key concept is time. You have to give them attention and time. That s why you need your wife not to have a career , or at least work part-time. You also have to have kids at young age if possible , so the kids will be stronger physically. There is also one important thing : Parenting is very physical. You have to play with them , to run , to bring them here and there , to support all the energy they have and to support all the shouting/hysteria. When you are around 40 , while you might be more mature on some topics , you are not really physically on your prime to deal with all this. It s like handicapping yourself.

I know I am not the forumer with the clearer way to speak english and I apologise to all natives but let's have an objective look at what you have to do when you have a lot of kids (not just 1 at 40 yo) at a rather young age (25/35 range) and what you have to do when you don't have kids .

For the one having kids ( Assuming the couple is stable with a rather traditional wife)
A son
1- Teach him respect
2- Teach him how to be a responsible person / not a coward
3- Teach him how to be patient and understanding
4- Protect him from the violence of the world
5- To never disrespect his wife ( if i could i would teach him how to bang sluts though)
6- Always put God first
7- Try to make him "street" smart - but not in ghetto style
8- Teach him discipline
9- Teach him how to be a gentleman and educated while still keeping his manhood
10- Teach him that he has to earn things he wants
On long term , teach them how to care about their own kids - as a grandfather.

A daughter
1- Respect her feminity & make her be balanced with no daddy issues ( a tough one , as hysteria is so natural in women and I am a bit of mysogynist)
2- Protect her from dangers
3-Guide her and instruct her
4- Show her how a real man can act as a family protector - so she can find a husband later
5- Turn her into a good wife material
6- Cherish her with your all your heart
7- Keep the drama out of her
8- your wife will have to transmit her a lot of things which the father can't (would be too long to explain but you see what I mean)

In general you have teach to constantly try to be a good husband and a good father . All this doesn't make you beta , it makes you on the contrary more mature and more collected. It is constant gaming. You are also rewarded by seeing their first achievements , the first step , their intellectual and physical progress , and the love they provide you every day , when you have a bad day it is very therapeutic to have kids next to you. Their smile or their hugs are so true and authentic that you can feel it anytime. Yes you have to help them do their homework but you can also have nice time in family playing table games or do activities all together. Young kids are also very funny and very positive.

And with all this , as a man you have to keep up your career , and not give up your pussy dreams.

Is this lifestyle more respectable and more challenging then being childfree ?

While I understand that some men cannot find a good enough woman for themselves , I am often wondering what are the lifelong bachelors doing with their lives.
What do you do when you are 30+ without kids and without wife ? It must be a horrible burden to have a binary life - work & fuck and all this without long-term perspective. I personally don't see what a man can do if he has no kids at a certain age , apart from being the perfect slave of capitalism & the personification of an egotistic life-style.

I thank God every day for having built a so-far stable family . I would never trade my wife & 3 kids for a piece of ass. Instead I find it very rewarding to find a nice piece of ass once a year (and not so easily) to relax from all this noble work of father & husband. I also prefer to spend time with family than having social networks or thinking which drugged/intoxicated/alcoholic bitch i will try to fuck next weekend in the night-club or which destination i will travel to to try to daygame some girls in the street.

Success comes from the inside first (self-improvement) , from your wife & kids second.If you have both you are unbeatable and will become more popular with women if that's really what you need.

I am not here to give instructions to anyone , but I strongly encourage everyone to build families and become real men , fight all this like a soldier , to never back down , to look forward and be a conqueror . I believe that Western civilization is a cosmic force and it is our responsibility to educate our kids so a part of our civilization will never fall in a trap set by a world gone out of order. Unless you and your wife have fertility issues , there is no excuse for not trying to make kids. Love can be given to your kids without giving one cent.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2019 05:02 AM by Polniy_Sostav.)
01-08-2019 04:50 AM
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