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Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
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Oberrheiner Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-08-2019 04:13 AM)WalterBlack Wrote:  [Never done one, and these are stupid now anyway. A lot of people's handwriting has degraded massively over time due to keyboard use. I write almost exclusively in capital letters because I can barely read my own writing if I write in lower case. When I was a kid I had great handwriting.]

That does say something about you, though.

It is definitely the case for me that my handwriting turned to absolute crap since I'm a coder and thus use only various keyboards.
However this annoys me and I am starting to address it, already bought a nice pen and started writing some things by hand, simply because I don't believe you can just abandon such a basic competency.

A real man needs a legible handwriting, period.
Our ancestors fought so that everybody would be able to learn how to read and write, it's still not the case if many parts of the world, this is not negotiable really.

Anything not blue is not acceptable :
[Image: World_literacy_map_UNHD_2007_2008.png]
And this is not taking into account those who can read/write but have zero access to pen, paper and books.

So, are you conscious of the state of the world ?
Are you conscious of this being a handicap ?
Are you willing to address it ?
Or will you make excuses, come up with workarounds (all caps not being the worst, but it definitely looks funny if not worse), etc etc.

It can definitely give some insight into the brain and personality of the candidate(s) if you ask the right questions imho.
And of course this was not a rant against you, since some are susceptible here and I don't know you Smile

(02-08-2019 04:13 AM)WalterBlack Wrote:  If somebody giving a reference causes you to be turned down for a job, you can sue them

It's the same thing here, however most people cover for each other so you will most likely never know that was the reason you got turned down.
02-08-2019 06:09 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
I forgot that the ghosting thing was even the whole point of the thread. By "give notice" I mean two weeks. By "don't give notice" I mean quit effective immediately. But yeah, not having the balls to actually even tell them you've quit is just retarded, particularly in this day and age of social media when your old boss can be up on your facebook page asking where the fuck you are while your new boss is thinking "ditch this clown before the end of the trial period".

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02-08-2019 06:10 AM
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pijamaboy Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-08-2019 05:42 AM)Oberrheiner Wrote:  
(02-08-2019 02:39 AM)pijamaboy Wrote:  This references stuff has always made me perplex. In France they never ask for references. The only time someone asks is when it's UK recruiter agencies that tries to steal my clients. They lurk on the French freelance websites, try to dangle a carrot in front of you but "hey, by the way please provide me at least 2 references". I always say to them "I give my references only to the final client, if he asks me". Of course I know they will never ask me, French companies don't do that.

With the very little contact I've had with anglosaxon companies, I'd have zero regret making them go bankrupt if it makes me earn $10 more. No pity.

France is very left-wing in that aspect.

For instance in the german-speaking world the employer writes about the employee in the work certificate you get when leaving.
Supposedly there are even some "codes" so that they can write shit about you without it being obvious to you (what a great system, yay !).

In France this is simply illegal, because we know too many people would write shit even if everything went fine (because crab mentality), so your work certificate only mentions dates, name, position, and that's it basically.
So when looking for work in the german-speaking world you are at a disadvantage : to them your almost-empty work certificates look extremely suspicious.

Also french companies mostly never ask for references because they know the company you left would usually say shit about you ("they gave you a job and you left them, how dare you !", not totally unlike a stupid bitch "but I gave you access to my pussy !", as if it was everything there was to it ..).
They know this is what they would do themselves after you will have left them, so they don't bother.

In the rest of the world they often do ask for references, and yes it is a double-edged sword.
I find the whole thing a bit stupid, imagine you are dating a new girl and she wants to call two ex-girlfriends first ..

Yes this reference system seems very retarded. Thanks god we don't do that. I would never get new jobs. I always write my resume with fake dates and I put some trendy technologies I don't even know. If I get a job with a technology I don't know I'll just learn it before the job begins. It has worked pretty well in my favour and until now no one has ever noticed.

I don't know what you are talking about with work certificates, the only time I have ever needed one was to get my pay at Pole Emploi after I quit my job Big Grin or do they ask for work certificates if you get a new CDI?
02-08-2019 08:10 AM
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Oberrheiner Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
By law your employer should give you one when you quit (or he fires you).
Some companies ask for those when you apply, to check that you did have the position you say for the period you mention in your resume.

In the german (and apparently also the english)-speaking world this document also contains some assessment of how well you worked and/or behaved, more in less in depth depending on the people or the company, that's variable.
02-08-2019 08:36 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-07-2019 12:03 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  
(02-07-2019 11:28 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  These shit work jobs treat you like shit, pay you like shit, and are not deserving of any notice of any kind-They are like Tinder sluts that demand to be treated like Traditional virgin brides- I am already a wage slave to a temporary dead end job, now you want me to pretend this is a career? Fuck you

The average corporation does not give a flying fuck if their employees live or die. I am convinced there are plenty of executives and corporate boards who would literally kill their employees to raise the share price, or get a slightly larger bonus, and think nothing of it. Many are malicious, scheming opportunists and deserve nothing but contempt from honest working people.

I got recruited for a sales job a few years ago, on the basis that it was a minimum 20% raise from my current salary, with excellent room for growth.

When I got there, it was clear they had totally lied to me, and caused me to leave my previous job for this new one. When I brought up my concerns to the VP of Sales, he treated me with total contempt, barely containing his rage at the idea that I would question him. He clearly thought I should essentially be his slave, shut my mouth, and happily work for 65% of what I was promised.

"Ghosting" is honestly the mildest retribution these people deserve, for messing with people's lives like its nothing.

Corporations especially corporate bosses also have a much higher proportion of psychopaths:


(This post was last modified: 02-08-2019 09:10 AM by infowarrior1.)
02-08-2019 09:10 AM
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NomadofEU Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-08-2019 05:44 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The consensus seems to be "shitty boss no notice, good boss give notice".

Pretty simple really.

I dunno, I quit my first job by straight up telling my boss that I didn't like her, didn't like working for her, and won't be coming in today, tomorrow or any point in the future. Didn't need to cuss her out or say "Fuck Y'all!!" just stayed cool. She was shocked and could only muster a "this is so unprofessional" before hanging up.

Felt damn good.

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02-08-2019 10:23 AM
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Hell_Is_Like_Newark Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
My wife had a new hire ghost her. Signed an employment contract, but never showed up for work. No response to phone calls and emails.

The HR department said this is a common problem with Millenial aged hires.
02-08-2019 12:39 PM
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SeaFM Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
I was doing this in the 80’s.

A true pioneer I suppose.
02-08-2019 07:37 PM
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kamoz Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
People are ghosting because, especially since 08, corporations are treating people like such utter shit and working them to death that they just bail to keep their sanity. This is still possible because our society still allows for this sort of freedom.

Wait until the Green New Deal, the next economic crash, and neo feudalism begins in earnest.
02-09-2019 03:33 AM
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kinjutsu Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
People in general being flakey...none of this surprise me. Too many people are lacking manners. They abuse drugs/alcohol and dont take responsibility for their fuck ups.

Canada the labor laws are a bit more friendly to workers.

Fun story somewhat related..

A bunch of years ago i worked at a construction company. I started out answering phones then moved up to be an estimator (Im good with numbers, i knew auto cad very well)
They hired a brand new girl to replace my original role. Lets call her Sarah.
Sarah was an ok looking girl. Solid 5.
She was nice enough and i spent a lot of time training her up in my old position.
After being there for about 2 months, around mid October she missed her first day. It was a Monday so the rest of us in the office were playing catch up. She did call the manager and let him know she was sick and wouldn't be coming in.
2 weeks later she missed another Monday and the Tuesday. She didn't call in but she got her mom to call the manager to let us know she wouldn't be coming in. Her mom said she was in the hospital because someone roofied her. I automatically thought bullshit. But whatever i told my boss that i thought she was a bad hire. (he didn't hire her, someone else did)

Everyone in the small company (17 in the office, 14 in the workshop) was very concerned about Sarah. I knew she wasn't coming back i expressed this opinion to my boss and he agreed but he said "lets see what happens".
After about 2 weeks of getting texts and calls from her mother she stops all communication with the company. I say to my boss that we should start looking for another person before Christmas holiday non sense starts.
He says "lets give it another week and if she's not back i will start looking for someone else".
By this point it was nearly 1 month of text/call games from Sarah, then outright ghosting on us. Never mind the people (women) in the office overplaying the drama if she's doing OK and that the company should take care of her medical bills etc.

We eventually hire someone else and forget her.
Fast forward to the next year around mid-June.
Sarah comes walking into to our showroom like nothing fucking happened. Shes 5-6 months pregnant. Now all the women in the office are giddy and wanting to throw her a baby shower etc.
They go around the office and workshop gathering donations for a gift basket for the baby.
I politely declined, said i was broke. 10 minutes later an older lady came to my desk asking what my problem was with giving $5 for a baby gift basket. I calmly explained to her that her behavior last year effectively doubled my work load for 3.5 months and i had to train a new person. So please forgive me for not giving her a dime.
The look on the old lady's face would've frozen hell over.

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02-09-2019 05:35 AM
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Post: #61
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-09-2019 05:35 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  People in general being flakey...none of this surprise me. Too many people are lacking manners. They abuse drugs/alcohol and dont take responsibility for their fuck ups.

Canada the labor laws are a bit more friendly to workers.

Fun story somewhat related..

A bunch of years ago i worked at a construction company. I started out answering phones then moved up to be an estimator (Im good with numbers, i knew auto cad very well)
They hired a brand new girl to replace my original role. Lets call her Sarah.
Sarah was an ok looking girl. Solid 5.
She was nice enough and i spent a lot of time training her up in my old position.
After being there for about 2 months, around mid October she missed her first day. It was a Monday so the rest of us in the office were playing catch up. She did call the manager and let him know she was sick and wouldn't be coming in.
2 weeks later she missed another Monday and the Tuesday. She didn't call in but she got her mom to call the manager to let us know she wouldn't be coming in. Her mom said she was in the hospital because someone roofied her. I automatically thought bullshit. But whatever i told my boss that i thought she was a bad hire. (he didn't hire her, someone else did)

Everyone in the small company (17 in the office, 14 in the workshop) was very concerned about Sarah. I knew she wasn't coming back i expressed this opinion to my boss and he agreed but he said "lets see what happens".
After about 2 weeks of getting texts and calls from her mother she stops all communication with the company. I say to my boss that we should start looking for another person before Christmas holiday non sense starts.
He says "lets give it another week and if she's not back i will start looking for someone else".
By this point it was nearly 1 month of text/call games from Sarah, then outright ghosting on us. Never mind the people (women) in the office overplaying the drama if she's doing OK and that the company should take care of her medical bills etc.

We eventually hire someone else and forget her.
Fast forward to the next year around mid-June.
Sarah comes walking into to our showroom like nothing fucking happened. Shes 5-6 months pregnant. Now all the women in the office are giddy and wanting to throw her a baby shower etc.
They go around the office and workshop gathering donations for a gift basket for the baby.
I politely declined, said i was broke. 10 minutes later an older lady came to my desk asking what my problem was with giving $5 for a baby gift basket. I calmly explained to her that her behavior last year effectively doubled my work load for 3.5 months and i had to train a new person. So please forgive me for not giving her a dime.
The look on the old lady's face would've frozen hell over.

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Speechless! The nerve for this bitch to come back like nothing happened!
02-09-2019 08:40 AM
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Heuristics Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
Going Galt is probably a good thing, maybe the younger generation is waking up-- I hear from a lot of millenials that the economy is bad, employers are shit, too much competition for shitty jobs, etc. That's a positive. At least they have an awareness that the world is stacked in ways against them that it wasn't for their parents and boomers. I was looking at some metrics the other day, and it does look like millenials have less wealth at the current point in their lives than their parents do.

Corporations do need to be called out for their shitty behavior, lack of benefits for employees, SJW policies, treating workers as transient and so on. They need a taste of millennial medicine. Ghosting an employer is poetic justice in my opinion. I'm reminded of Japan where the system used to be primarily lifetime employment based with one company, whereas now less and less permanent hires are being made and these are being offset with temps, so the Japanese are going Galt. At some point you have to send a strong message by saying screw the system. And then maybe things become better or they don't.

Although on another level I think ghosting is fucking horrible, but society has already be disintegrated/ atomized to such a point that there's no going back. Communities (which existed organically for thousands of years as social support structures) are breaking down, trust is gone down, the US is balkanizing along political and identity lines, media/ social media is creating echo chambers and feedback loops and so on. Ghosting is a symptom of lack of emphasis on personal/ human bonds, something that undone by our corporate techbro overlords in silicon valley coupled with the most nefarious forms of the frankfurt school, post modernism, and neo-marxism. Also would wager that employers treat their employees a lot less like family these days and a lot more like an item on a balance sheet. This is probably because america is run by big corporations, whereas in the past a lot more businesses were small or medium size.

The reason millenials are so shitty as people is because we were raised this way, we were given participation trophies, our lives were micro-managed, our parents never let us take risks, much less do anything other than a managed play-date. On top of that, a creeping credentialism that has affected much of middle class america and rich america has made us fairly obsessed with getting useless college degrees and then pursuing shitty high status jobs rather than pursuing meaning. The pressure is on us because of social media, fucked up boomer expectations, globalism, and being under permanent scrutiny because we live in full time corporate intelligence military surveillance state. Until such a time that a new more reasonable standard regarding online mistakes, un-PC comments, etc, emerges we're fucked for the rest of our lives. Is it any wonder us millenials have depression, anxiety, are popping pills, don't have credit, don't own cars or have houses? We're all so plugged into the matrix now that we have no idea have much social conditioning this generation has been exposed to. Attention spans are shit, but that's because everyone--including boomers--are spending shittons of time in front of screens. I will not be doing data entry and will be giving corporate america the middle finger as soon as possible.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2019 08:10 PM by Heuristics.)
02-09-2019 08:05 PM
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Post: #63
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
For those of us on the forum, the better move is definitely not to burn bridges. Always leave on a good note and always do a small task with the same enthusiasm and professionalism. This is one of those low key "markers of future success" that I've noticed through the years. People who do their shitty tasks diligently and in a good mood, usually end up better off. The same goes for those who make boring tasks into a competition.
02-10-2019 10:27 AM
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Post: #64
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-07-2019 11:13 AM)Akwesi Wrote:  I remember an American ex who actually gave notice and then promptly got fired. There's something about that kind of asshole move that just seems crazy from a Scandinavian point of view. I do realize easier to fire means easier to hire, but still...

On a similar tone from a story of my mothers back in the 70's. She was working with a boss that she did not get along with and put in a two weeks notice. I think that the reason for leaving was that I was on the way. The boss blew up and her reply was "I can leave today if you want me to." She left that day.

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02-10-2019 11:02 AM
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Post: #65
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
I'd say that a lot of these corporations are the reason their workforce is so transient in the first place though. They sucked the middle class dry and then fled overseas for cheaper labor and then they wonder why my generation has a hard time keeping a job?

It's cutthroat out there. The days of being honest with an employer are long since over. I don't approve of ghosting but it's just another tool in the kit of corporate guerilla warfare as far as I see it.
02-10-2019 11:12 AM
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Post: #66
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
I had a job interview the other day for blue collar type work. They asked me to use 5 words to describe myself. I probably wouldn't have ghosted, but I doubt I would have given two weeks notice.

I didn't think companies still asked dumb fucking questions like that, especially for a job that's outdoors.

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02-10-2019 11:14 AM
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Heuristics Offline
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RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 11:12 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I'd say that a lot of these corporations are the reason their workforce is so transient in the first place though. They sucked the middle class dry and then fled overseas for cheaper labor and then they wonder why my generation has a hard time keeping a job?

It's cutthroat out there. The days of being honest with an employer are long since over. I don't approve of ghosting but it's just another tool in the kit of corporate guerilla warfare as far as I see it.

Yeah globalization screwed a lot of people with decent jobs. Also that and the off-shoring of profits to tax havens, which means that the money is never coming back to our own shores. How the fuck as a millenial are you suppose to compete with someone in say, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, Phillipines, etc who has a college degree in STEM and speaks english that will get the job done working for an American corporation abroad. I shit you not, I met call center workers in Budapest and Bucharest who I would have no idea were from those countries if they didn't tell me... Their accents were that good--although if we want to nitpick-- they had someone generic American accents that were pretty neutral. What's the living standard in those countries $1000USD a month? Ukraine, what, like 200USD? No way in hell will we get those jobs back. The value proposition is just too high for multinationals. As job seekers were taught there's no need for loyalty and that we should jump ship for the better outfit at first chance. That's just a byproduct of the toxic working environment now. I think over a career now, versus a career 50 years ago, an American's tenure at each outfit is half the length, making for double the number of unique job positions over 50 years ago.

I like the idea of corporate guerilla warfare. Maybe we should all be taking medical leave or something to suck these companies dry. Or flooding the HR department with diversity complaints... Accelerate the diversity politics and corporate virtue signalling, making it costly and untenable for these companies, causing them to implode. I don't know. What is really in order is a targeted boycott of the worst offenders: for example I boycott Starbucks, Target, Amazon, Netflix, the entire mainstream media, Nike, among others. At the store I don't buy anything from massive multi-national food companies for the most part. Maybe I live primitively, but I don't view it that way-- it's my way of fighting back. I refuse to play by their rules or follow their dictates. If the leftists are doing it I think we (generally speaking of the right/ or anti-globalist factions) should do it as well.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2019 12:05 PM by Heuristics.)
02-10-2019 11:58 AM
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BBinger Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 11:12 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I'd say that a lot of these corporations are the reason their workforce is so transient in the first place though. They sucked the middle class dry and then fled overseas for cheaper labor and then they wonder why my generation has a hard time keeping a job?

It's cutthroat out there. The days of being honest with an employer are long since over. I don't approve of ghosting but it's just another tool in the kit of corporate guerilla warfare as far as I see it.

A big ugly reality that isn't being talked about is how Boomers grew up in an economic boom resulting from the Industrial economies of Europe tearing each other apart between 1939 and 1945. Rebuilding from that took decades, but while it lasted everyone got a taste for the abundance it allowed for.

When Europe was back up to speed in the 1970's the economic hangover in the US began. Nixon killed the post war Bretton Woods system in 1971 causing an international shock, up to that point currency was convertible between paper notes and gold. The relationship though had gotten wobbly, markets abroad were arbitraging the difference between what gold was worth and what the dollar was worth. With convertibility dying just after the boom peaked, the US dollar replaced gold as what people built reserves on.

No longer advantaged by being the Industrial power that wasn't wrecked by war, the USG government proceeded in the decades following the Nixon shock to attempt to keep people, as consumers, from noticing the boom years were over. This is why US dollars went to build China's finance development of Chinese industrial prowess, southeast Asian garment making prowess, etc.

The lack of discussion on this explained entitled boomers, and the increasing lack of morale in every subsequent generation in the US. Unless some decades down the line war manages to wreck Asia and Europe while sparing the US, Boomer level prosperity isn't happening again.

The present trajectory of the US mirrors Argentina. Argentina started the 20th century wealthy and very high standard of living relative to the rest of the world to a basket case as the wealth was squandered and efforts to artificially simulate the high standard of the past kept failing as frauds, Ponzis, and Pyramid schemes tend to do. Now the US having peaked higher means there is much further to fall and more time before hitting the ground, but many low end US jobs offer an income in line with what counts for middle class in Argentina or Uruguay. 20-25k USD a year.

Expect the pain and the thrashing in reaction to the pain to continue.
02-10-2019 03:07 PM
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2 Cool 4 U Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
Not surprising, since they're learning the same behavior from companies.

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02-10-2019 05:41 PM
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Post: #70
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 11:14 AM)renotime Wrote:  I had a job interview the other day for blue collar type work. They asked me to use 5 words to describe myself. I probably wouldn't have ghosted, but I doubt I would have given two weeks notice.

I didn't think companies still asked dumb fucking questions like that, especially for a job that's outdoors.

Places like Target and Wal-Mart ask those kind of dumb questions, but I don't think blue collar type jobs would ask those kind of questions.

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02-10-2019 06:20 PM
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Repo Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 06:20 PM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 11:14 AM)renotime Wrote:  I had a job interview the other day for blue collar type work. They asked me to use 5 words to describe myself. I probably wouldn't have ghosted, but I doubt I would have given two weeks notice.

I didn't think companies still asked dumb fucking questions like that, especially for a job that's outdoors.

Places like Target and Wal-Mart ask those kind of dumb questions, but I don't think blue collar type jobs would ask those kind of questions.

Maybe it was a Best Buy
02-10-2019 06:31 PM
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Buck Wild Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 05:41 PM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  Not surprising, since they're learning the same behavior from companies.

Exactly---the companies have ghosted on the working class and the economy and Millenials are just giving it back.

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02-10-2019 09:32 PM
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StrikeBack Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
Whenever I hear a ghosting story or similar at the workplace, it's never a real middle finger to exploitative corporations like people here seem to believe, it's always the kind of BS you see in kinjutsu's post above with that chick just disappearing then turning up months later.

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02-10-2019 10:50 PM
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CleanSlate Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
When I was a manager at my previous company, I interviewed some candidates and picked one to hire. On the first day, he was about 5 minutes late, which was usually no big deal because everyone came at different times, but I was a nervous wreck because I was worried he would completely ghost on me, to my great embarrassment. When he did show up, I could hardly contain my relief.

I knew in the back of my head that some people just ghost, especially if they're young and single. But to add to what Strikeback is saying, ghosting on a company doesn't translate into a big fuck-you to "evil" corporations. It is a slap in the face to the manager who hired you over dozens of other candidates, and unless the manager is the CEO, you're not doing any real damage to the company by ghosting. You're just 1) showing how classless and unreliable you are, and 2) making the manager lose face in the eyes of others, not to mention 3) piling onto your coworkers' workloads, which won't win you any future favors.

Sure, some managers are assholes and they might even deserve it, but you don't want a blemish on your rep when you look for another job. So I'm 100% against ghosting, even if the manager is an asshole -- in which case, I would just tell the manager that I'm quitting without an explanation.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2019 12:06 AM by CleanSlate.)
02-10-2019 11:59 PM
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renotime Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Recent trend: Employees "ghosting" on their employers
(02-10-2019 06:31 PM)Repo Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 06:20 PM)2 Cool 4 U Wrote:  
(02-10-2019 11:14 AM)renotime Wrote:  I had a job interview the other day for blue collar type work. They asked me to use 5 words to describe myself. I probably wouldn't have ghosted, but I doubt I would have given two weeks notice.

I didn't think companies still asked dumb fucking questions like that, especially for a job that's outdoors.

Places like Target and Wal-Mart ask those kind of dumb questions, but I don't think blue collar type jobs would ask those kind of questions.

Maybe it was a Best Buy

I said the job was blue collar and outdoors. Figure things out from context much?

You want to know the only thing you can assume about a broken down old man? It's that he's a survivor.
02-11-2019 02:21 AM
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