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Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
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estraudi Offline
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Post: #126
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
It IS an IQ problem. These airlines are stupid enough to purchase planes with equipment BOEING would not provide to them as it's patented and violates their own policy of providing all the good tech to non-american airlines or partner airlines in "safer" countries.

It's hard to explain the amount of certification, reference numbers, non-incident statements, FAA 8130 & EASA tags plus quality control measures that go into getting a plane on the tarmac. It's insane the procedures. I work as a airline component destributor & broker.
Half of these dipshit airlines and their partner "mechanic shops" don't even order their Boeing pilot yokes with the pre-flight checklist that COMES ATTACHED from the manufacturer(BOEING).
Even minus that crucial checklist these pilots and planes are still certified to fly.
I laugh every time one crashes because I know exactly how these cheap skate airlines cut corners on red tape, flight equipment, certification, faulty parts and pilot training.
You get what you pay for.

I doubt it. Remember that your lower level, millenial leftist isn't good at critical thinking. They're largely like trained dogs who emote in response to programmed cues like the word "racism" and "socialism". Easy_C

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03-22-2019 12:20 PM
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estraudi Offline
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Post: #127
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
Not to mention most of these cheap skate airlines or their shops email us(we prefer email so we have proof of their shady practices to get us off the hook on technicalities) wanting to purchase a BER(Beyond Economical Repair) or AR(As-Removed) part, because they are not certified, therefore are very cheap in comparison to new, serviceable or overhauled parts(which can safely be put on planes no questions asked).

We tell them this part cannot be certified and we have the incident statements and reason for removal to go along with the sale.
They say the same shit, "Oh we will send a certifier over there to have a look and issue a new certification granting permission for the part to be used on our aircraft".
All this for a junked out part worth maybe $300. They'd rather fly a certifier from their home country(room and board,rental car) to our location in Arizona rather than pay $15,000-$30,000 for the same part certified new, serviceable or overhauled.
The guy shows up, he charges$500- $4,000 to review and certify the new part and boom that's how a shitty airline gets ahold of unworthy parts.
Fucking certifier easily makes $250,000-400,000 a year doing this kinda shit.

I doubt it. Remember that your lower level, millenial leftist isn't good at critical thinking. They're largely like trained dogs who emote in response to programmed cues like the word "racism" and "socialism". Easy_C

"The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him."--Jean Jacques Rousseau
03-22-2019 12:35 PM
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Post: #128
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
Yes Estraudi, completely agree with you regarding cost-cutting and cheapskate airlines but here is the case:

NYT Wrote:One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.

NYT Wrote:The three American airlines that bought the 737 Max each took a different approach to outfitting the cockpits.

American Airlines, which ordered 100 of the planes and has 24 in its fleet, bought both the angle of attack indicator and the disagree light, the company said.

Southwest Airlines, which ordered 280 of the planes and counts 36 in its fleet so far, had already purchased the disagree alert option, and it also installed an angle of attack indicator in a display mounted above the pilots’ heads. After the Lion Air crash, Southwest said it would modify its 737 Max fleet to place the angle of attack indicator on the pilots’ main computer screens.

United Airlines, which ordered 137 of the planes and has received 14, did not select the indicators or the disagree light. A United spokesman said the airline does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/busin...harge.html

So let's assume you're a pilot for the best-outfitted American Airlines 737 Max and your angle of attack indicator suddenly shows your plane's angle rising and the plane stalling (whereas the reality is that it's just a faulty sensor and MCAS is actually starting to point the plane down). You also see the disagree light activate, indicating that you probably can't trust the angle of attack indicator. You conclude that the plane is actually pointed down and that you should point it up again.

You reach for the controls and begin pointing the plane upwards. MCAS, relying on its shitty single faulty sensor, overrides you and keeps pointing the plane down. You still don't know what the actual angle of attack is at the moment, but you're sure that you should increase it just to be safe and then you can keep exploring what the issue might be.

In reality, your attempts to increase it are still being overridden by the hidden system and the plane is going to crash within one minute.

At this point, the sensible thing to do would be to turn off MCAS, but you've never even been told that such a thing exists because according to Boeing this plane is completely the same as all other 737 planes, so you keep looking for other solutions or consulting the emergency handbook while fighting with the controls to keep the plane steady.

The plane crashes and everyone dies.

The end.
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Can you please explain:
A) How will high IQ or expensive equipment help you against a hidden system determined to crash you?
B) Why is it justifiable for Boeing to place the pilots in such an unnecessarily precarious situation in the first place?

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03-22-2019 01:34 PM
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Post: #129
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-22-2019 11:09 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Comments at Breitbart are in full denial, blaming crashes on "third world airlines" and "low IQ pilots". No way the precious Boeing could ever be at fault despite designing a flying deathtrap dependent on a single sensor to stay aloft.

IQ is for the right what racism is for the left - an infinite wellspring of excuses to avoid taking any personal responsibility.

It's not either/or. Boeing looks very negligent here, but third world airlines have poor safety records for reasons beyond the quality of the aircraft. And it's not "low IQ pilots," it's the overall system in which they're placed.
03-22-2019 02:46 PM
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Post: #130
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-22-2019 01:34 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  ----------------------------------------
Can you please explain:
A) How will high IQ or expensive equipment help you against a hidden system determined to crash you?
B) Why is it justifiable for Boeing to place the pilots in such an unnecessarily precarious situation in the first place?

A) Not IQ, but experience and training. If the aircraft is giving me unwanted trim inputs I don't care if it's MCAS or a fat passenger getting up to take a dump, my response is the same; switch off the stabilizer trim motor.
B) The poor design by Boeing is not justifiable but it is manageable.
(This post was last modified: 03-22-2019 02:55 PM by Duke Main.)
03-22-2019 02:54 PM
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estraudi Offline
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Post: #131
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
Higher IQ which I'm using maybe as a poor substitute for smarts, keenness, or aptitude could have really saved the pilot here.

I've sat in and operated the simulators(boeing & airbus) at our customers simulation labs where they train these pilots, perk of the job.

Alot of "quirks" are thrown at the pilots to test their aptitude not only for OPERATING the countless instruments needed to fly a plane but also their ability to IMPROVISE and use their god given instincts to take control of the plane. Someone with the ability to think outside the box, or whatever you call it, would have known to fly a plane perpendicular or parallel to the ground as needed until able to land safely.

The pilots just let this plane go down practically saying "fuck it we tried". Maybe that's a rough generalization.

Boeing outfits these planes to the tune of the customers wallet as well so there's that.

This incident strikes at the whole autonomous vehicle transition. Most people will fault the technology and not human error every single time. Evidence based studies show humans will ALWAYS blame the tech first.

Driving in the rain I can defeat traction control in my car when the wheels slip as I know how to steer and control it whilst modulating throttle, maintaining good vision and operation of the vehicle. Does it mean my traction sensors were wrong and it's their fault for cutting in and out as the computer told them when comparing X amount of inputs? No, I think it would be my fault to not turn it the fuck off and control that shit myself, ain't nobody got time for that. Teslas do this alot. A person was also killed in my state by an inept driver letting the car drive itself, the car didn't detect a woman walking her bike across the road at night and killed her.

Tech isn't fool proof and actual human operation is and will always be needed. I'm surprised Airbus doesn't have as many crashes since they're more tech heavy especially with Fly By Wire systems and modules modules modules. Humans defeating those systems would be hard.
The loss of such tremendous amounts of life is tragic, nonetheless.

I doubt it. Remember that your lower level, millenial leftist isn't good at critical thinking. They're largely like trained dogs who emote in response to programmed cues like the word "racism" and "socialism". Easy_C

"The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him."--Jean Jacques Rousseau
03-22-2019 05:07 PM
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Post: #132
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-22-2019 05:07 PM)estraudi Wrote:  ...
Tech isn't fool proof and actual human operation is and will always be needed. I'm surprised Airbus doesn't have as many crashes since they're more tech heavy especially with Fly By Wire systems and modules modules modules. Humans defeating those systems would be hard.
The loss of such tremendous amounts of life is tragic, nonetheless.





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03-23-2019 12:01 AM
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Glaucon Online
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Post: #133
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
People forget that software is written by humans. You would not believe how horribly buggy enterprise softwares are, and it is getting worse. They are going to need more and more admins and dev to keep things alive.

I will never sit in an "self driving" car, let alone a plane.

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03-23-2019 02:31 AM
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Post: #134
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-23-2019 02:31 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  People forget that software is written by humans. You would not believe how horribly buggy enterprise softwares are, and it is getting worse. They are going to need more and more admins and dev to keep things alive.

I will never sit in an "self driving" car, let alone a plane.

I assume self driving cars will be more aware of their environment and have better reaction time, than idiots using their smartphone while driving. (seeing it every fucking day)
The good thing about self driving cars is, that the manufacturers will have to rely on direct marketing to the end-customer. It is rather easy to set foot inside a specific car model, or not.

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(This post was last modified: 03-23-2019 08:22 AM by void.)
03-23-2019 08:18 AM
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saner Offline
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Post: #135
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-22-2019 05:07 PM)estraudi Wrote:  I'm surprised Airbus doesn't have as many crashes since they're more tech heavy especially with Fly By Wire systems and modules modules modules.

Airbus designed their planes that way from the start. A wholy integrated system from the start.

The 737 is a nearly 50 year old plane, based on older planes. The 'modern' controls were grafted in, piece by piece over the years. When the MAX was built several major kludges were used. Kind of like retrofitting and modifying a Morris Minor to be a modern luxury car with ABS, airbags, traction control......
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2019 09:35 AM by saner.)
03-23-2019 09:34 AM
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Post: #136
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-22-2019 05:07 PM)estraudi Wrote:  Higher IQ which I'm using maybe as a poor substitute for smarts, keenness, or aptitude could have really saved the pilot here.

I've sat in and operated the simulators(boeing & airbus) at our customers simulation labs where they train these pilots, perk of the job.

Alot of "quirks" are thrown at the pilots to test their aptitude not only for OPERATING the countless instruments needed to fly a plane but also their ability to IMPROVISE and use their god given instincts to take control of the plane. Someone with the ability to think outside the box, or whatever you call it, would have known to fly a plane perpendicular or parallel to the ground as needed until able to land safely.

The pilots just let this plane go down practically saying "fuck it we tried". Maybe that's a rough generalization.

Boeing outfits these planes to the tune of the customers wallet as well so there's that.

This incident strikes at the whole autonomous vehicle transition. Most people will fault the technology and not human error every single time. Evidence based studies show humans will ALWAYS blame the tech first.

Driving in the rain I can defeat traction control in my car when the wheels slip as I know how to steer and control it whilst modulating throttle, maintaining good vision and operation of the vehicle. Does it mean my traction sensors were wrong and it's their fault for cutting in and out as the computer told them when comparing X amount of inputs? No, I think it would be my fault to not turn it the fuck off and control that shit myself, ain't nobody got time for that. Teslas do this alot. A person was also killed in my state by an inept driver letting the car drive itself, the car didn't detect a woman walking her bike across the road at night and killed her.

Tech isn't fool proof and actual human operation is and will always be needed. I'm surprised Airbus doesn't have as many crashes since they're more tech heavy especially with Fly By Wire systems and modules modules modules. Humans defeating those systems would be hard.
The loss of such tremendous amounts of life is tragic, nonetheless.

I'll just stick to vehicles with analog inputs, thank you very much.

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03-23-2019 09:35 AM
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Post: #137
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-23-2019 09:35 AM)Aurini Wrote:  I'll just stick to vehicles with analog inputs, thank you very much.

I would like to too. Unfortunately they will almost certainly be mandated off the road to make way for V2V so the Wall-E types can abandon one more skill.
03-23-2019 09:40 AM
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Post: #138
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-23-2019 08:18 AM)void Wrote:  
(03-23-2019 02:31 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  People forget that software is written by humans. You would not believe how horribly buggy enterprise softwares are, and it is getting worse. They are going to need more and more admins and dev to keep things alive.

I will never sit in an "self driving" car, let alone a plane.

I assume self driving cars will be more aware of their environment and have better reaction time, than idiots using their smartphone while driving. (seeing it every fucking day)
The good thing about self driving cars is, that the manufacturers will have to rely on direct marketing to the end-customer. It is rather easy to set foot inside a specific car model, or not.

That's a pretty low bar there. The main problem with self-driving cars is that they aren't as reliable as a decent driver. Another problem is that they enable those kinds of idiot drivers to go full retard behind the wheel.

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03-23-2019 09:49 AM
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void Offline
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Post: #139
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
(03-23-2019 09:49 AM)911 Wrote:  
(03-23-2019 08:18 AM)void Wrote:  
(03-23-2019 02:31 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  People forget that software is written by humans. You would not believe how horribly buggy enterprise softwares are, and it is getting worse. They are going to need more and more admins and dev to keep things alive.

I will never sit in an "self driving" car, let alone a plane.

I assume self driving cars will be more aware of their environment and have better reaction time, than idiots using their smartphone while driving. (seeing it every fucking day)
The good thing about self driving cars is, that the manufacturers will have to rely on direct marketing to the end-customer. It is rather easy to set foot inside a specific car model, or not.

That's a pretty low bar there. The main problem with self-driving cars is that they aren't as reliable as a decent driver. Another problem is that they enable those kinds of idiot drivers to go full retard behind the wheel.
What do you mean with reliable? Humans are more prone to error under stressful situations.
There are no SAE level 5 cars on the market yet, what TESLA advertised as "autopilot" wasn't SAE level 5.
There will come a time, where fully automated cars will produce less accidents than humans.
Your insurance will charge you extra, if you get behind the wheel.

https://www.lifetime-reliability.com/cms..._insights/

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(This post was last modified: 03-23-2019 10:23 AM by void.)
03-23-2019 10:21 AM
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Thersites Offline
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Post: #140
RE: Ethiopan Airlines Plane Crash
The news about the MAX with MCAS reminds me of old blog post that is 6 six years old at this point. The post talks about human and robotic interaction. Here the link: When Humans and Robots Communicate

Key highlights from the post:

Quote:Whatever happened in the case of Asiana Flight 214…and all opinions about what happened with the autothrottles must be regarded as only speculative at this point…there have been numerous cases–in aviation, in medical equipment, and in the maritime industry–in which an automated control system and its human users interacted in a way that either did or could have led to very malign results. In his book Taming HAL, Asaf Degani describes several such cases, and searches for general patterns and for approaches to minimize such occurrences in the future.

Degani discusses human interface problems that he has observed in common consumer devices such as clocks, TV remote controls, and VCRs, and goes into depth on several incidents involving safety-critical interface failures. Some of these were:

The airplane that broke the speed limit. This was another autothrottle-related incident, albeit one in which the consequences were much less severe than Asiana 214. The airplane was climbing to its initial assigned altitude of 11,000 feet, under an autopilot mode (Vertical Navigation) in which speed was calculated by the flight management system for optimum efficiency–in this case, 300 knots. Air traffic control then directed that the flight slow to 240 knots for separation from traffic ahead. The copilot dialed this number into the flight control panel,overriding the FMS-calculated number. At 11000 feet, the autopilot leveled the plane, switched itself into ALTITUDE HOLD mode, and maintained the 240 knot speed setting. Everything was fine.

The controller then directed a further climb to 14000 feet. The copilot re-engaged VERTICAL NAVIGATION MODE and put in the new altitude setting. The engines increased power, the nose pitched up, and the airplane began to climb. But just a little bit later, the captain observed that the airplane wasn’t only climbing–it was also speeding up, and had reached almost 300 knots, thereby violating an ATC speed restriction.

What happened here? Degani refers to events of this sort as “automation surprises.” The copilot was apparently thinking that the speed he had dialed in to override the flight management system would continue to be in force when he re-enabled the vertical navigation climb mode. But that wasn’t the way the system was actually designed. Selecting Vertical Navigation mode re-initialized the source of the airspeed command to be the FMS, which was still calling for a 300-knot Best Efficiency speed.

Degani says that the pilots were well trained and understood how the speed reference value actually worked…but that the unintuitive nature of the interface caused this knowledge to be effectively forgotten at the moment when the additional climb was requested. He draws an analogy with the user of a cordless phone, who picks up the ringing phone and pushes the TALK button..a seemingly-logical action that actually turns off the phone and disconnects whoever is calling.

Boeing charging extra for necessary components need to tell pilots about MCAS is example of poorly throughout human-robotic interface. Interesting food for thought as poor design interface and forethought has cause a lot of problems. Especially when complacency takes hold.

Quote: But when people use an automated system on a regular basis, and find it reliable, it is easy for them to assume that it can always be counted on, and for the cross-checking to be omitted. Indeed, in some instances cross-checking many not be operationally feasible–is it really reasonable to expect that an anesthesiologist will notice that a blood pressure reading is NOT changing, if he has other duties that draw his attention away from the monitor?

To maximize the safety of human-machine integrated systems, it is essential (a) that the creators of this system consciously design the interface with to try and avoid “automation surprises,” (b) that the humans who will operate the system understand its functioning in depth, including the interaction between separate components (like the GPS system and the radar/map plotter) and the behavior of those modes which are likely to be used only on rare occasions, and © that cross-checking, wherever possible, should be conducted religiously.
(This post was last modified: 03-23-2019 10:28 AM by Thersites.)
03-23-2019 10:26 AM
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