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What is Orthodox Christianity?
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debeguiled Offline
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Post: #76
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-19-2019 10:30 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.

Me mad bruh?

I'm just giving you a heads up.

Believing you have a superior connection to Jesus because you are in the "original church" is spiritually akin to believing you are God's chosen because you are a descendant of Abraham.

There is room for many denominations.

One thing all humans have in common is the ability to get things wrong while thinking they are the only ones who have it right.

This seems to be a fundamental principle of human cognition.

Even in the Orthodox church.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
03-20-2019 01:36 PM
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Post: #77
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-20-2019 01:36 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(03-19-2019 10:30 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.

Me mad bruh?

I'm just giving you a heads up.

Believing you have a superior connection to Jesus because you are in the "original church" is spiritually akin to believing you are God's chosen because you are a descendant of Abraham.

I never said that, nor believe that. You haven't stayed on the topic at hand in any of your responses to my points. Again, I am merely stating what the CHURCH is, and why it matters (it is the most reliable guide). Others that aren't the church aren't as reliable. I don't know why that's controversial --- it's a statement of fact and perfectly logical.

Quote:There is room for many denominations.

One thing all humans have in common is the ability to get things wrong while thinking they are the only ones who have it right.

This seems to be a fundamental principle of human cognition.

Even in the Orthodox church.

There's room for paganism, witchcraft, and child sacrifice, too. You would call those wrong, so you make no point here.

There are plenty of "eastern orthodox" people (they claim, they were baptized at xyz, they say xyz) who get many things wrong. The Church points people to the Word, though. And unlike western christianity, it only makes very few, yet critical dogmatic claims, so built into the original church is the flexibility of spiritual fathers, guidance, discernment understanding, etc.

As opposed to sola scriptura, mental assent, inerrant "bible" and all other manner of bad thinking and teaching that leads to your actual complaint.

Get your passport ready!
03-20-2019 07:37 PM
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ilostabet Offline
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Post: #78
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
I used to be really into these discussions but now denominational fights remind me of 'who is white' threads. We're in such a dire state that it's pointless to argue this. Love your brother. Find a congregation of non-pozzed christians and support that community. We are in no position to be nitpicky.
03-21-2019 06:22 AM
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debeguiled Offline
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Post: #79
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
Okay. We'll try it from another angle.

Take this girl.





She had a powerful direct experience of Jesus. You can see it in how she talks about him.

I don't know what denominations she is, but it isn't Orthodox.

I am certain you would destroy her in a theological argument.

But her faith just jumps off the screen. This girl gets it in a direct, spiritual sense.

She is a Christian because she has experienced Jesus, and she is all in.

She will keep pushing and growing and learning to strengthen that relationship.

Next to faith and love like that, arguments about specific denominations and practices come across like pointy elbow talk.

But you would see her just as a bad thinker.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
03-21-2019 10:48 AM
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Post: #80
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-21-2019 10:48 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  


People like these ( everyone who has spent time in Christianity or another religion has seen a ton of them) just prove that gullible people are easily impressed and overwhelmed.

Just as easy as being converted to her current beliefs she could have fallen to some suicide death cult or something like Scientology or Mormonism or Islam or whatever.

These are people, usually from bad parents with no self control mechanisms installed in them in childhood. Alcoholics, drug users, depressed people, gambling addicts, sluts and similar. When they encounter a religion (any religion, the first thing that they hit their head on strong enough or from the right angle) and discover that there is a rule system and/or a community that can guide them out of the mess they are into they stick into it and remain faithful to it because they fear that anything else will lead them to their previous bad self-destructive habits.

It's good for these simple people that they find their way out of their mess. All religions that improve peoples lives like that have right to exist and carry at least a spark of the Truth.

But intellectual people with a gift of philosophical thought shouldn't just take these people as best examples. If God has gifted you with strong mind then you cannot just ignore it. You must find a place where your intellect is reconciled with your heart and everything fits together. This can be a never-ending process . To stop and say that you have find the one Truth and need not think and search any more is a mistake. At the same time you must practice the truths you have already found and that is where faith comes in to actually find strength and fallow the best moral and spiritual things you have understood to be worth practicing and to believe they are not just abstractions but also touch you on a personal level.

I have never had any serious addictions or self-destructive habits, so I cannot relate to these people. I want to improve my personality and life and surroundings even more and I use my mind to find the best way. I am not just sticking to the first way that I stumbled upon, because I do not fear that I will become a self destructive person if I am left on my own.
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2019 01:42 PM by Mage.)
03-21-2019 01:11 PM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #81
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
Mage, what exactly made you stop being a Christian? And in hindsight do you think you were ever actually a Christian (i.e. your faith was deep and genuine) or were you just sort of going through the motions and accepting what other people put in front of you? Whenever I read your posts on religion I never doubt your sincerity or intelligence, as you're clearly a very thoughtful and well-read guy, but there's always apparent an underlying tone of pride. It's as if, more than anything else, you simply cannot accept a God who doesn't allow you the opportunity to save yourself. You say that you aren't one of those fucked up people (a depressive, an addict, a degenerate, etc...), and that you're not foolish or simple-minded. Much to the contrary, you're an intellectual, a man of determination, discipline, will and power. You don't need to be saved from anything, the very idea seems to strike you as an insult. In this regard, your attitude perfectly illustrates the danger of pride from the Christian perspective (a danger which the Bible warns about exhaustively) . A lack of humility is a much bigger stumbling block to faith than a high IQ. There have been plenty of highly intelligent Christians, but very few - if any - can come to Christ while swollen with pride and self-righteousness.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
03-21-2019 07:08 PM
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Post: #82
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-21-2019 10:48 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  Okay. We'll try it from another angle.

Take this girl.

She had a powerful direct experience of Jesus. You can see it in how she talks about him.

I don't know what denominations she is, but it isn't Orthodox.

I am certain you would destroy her in a theological argument.

But her faith just jumps off the screen. This girl gets it in a direct, spiritual sense.

She is a Christian because she has experienced Jesus, and she is all in.

She will keep pushing and growing and learning to strengthen that relationship.

Next to faith and love like that, arguments about specific denominations and practices come across like pointy elbow talk.

But you would see her just as a bad thinker.

You're sort of confirming my suspicions about how emotionally, and not clearly, you are seeing this issue and our discussion. That's why I liked Mage's answer, because I think on average, his analysis is accurate.

You need to get a few things straight, debeguiled, and I am being direct and firm because you are unfairly, and I hope not purposefully, claiming that I am saying things that I am not saying.

When did I ever talk about "destroying her in a theological argument" or anyone else? You are putting that baggage on, and it's got nothing to do with me or any of my comments here. Let me restate my purpose on this thread, and my posts which support the fact that:

The Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth.

I think that is appropriate for a thread that is called "What is Orthodox Christianity"? Don't you?

Did I ever say that "ONLY the Orthodox Church has any element of the truth"? NO.

Your statements, taken to a logical end, as I've shown and Mage even hints at above, render the point of there being a Church (which is mentioned importantly in the gospels beyond being required to make critical sense of christianity) null and void.

So, the question is then, what is the point of the church? Or, what is the church? Or, why do we need the church? God could have just randomly instilled some magic ethereal nothingness that you keep referring to, in order to show us who those "true christians" were without anything historically --- but then we'd have to believe them by their words, it would be impossible to verify truly, and basically ... we'd have protestantism as now is --- grab a bible, and tell me, one of you 30,000 different whatevers, what you think is going on here. You can go on believing that if you want, but not admitting it is a huge problem makes you look undisciplined in your thinking and not honest to the points I'm bringing up.

Mostly I'm responding so that you'll stop putting words into my mouth, ad-libbing things I have never stated nor made points about.

Jesus Christ is the Truth; of course, he is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

The Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth about the Son of Man, the Wisdom, Word and Power of God. I say that because it is a true statement. I say it also because you cannot just pick up a "Bible" and figure that out by yourself.

And again, NO, I do not know who will be saved. But I do know what must be done to be saved, with God's mercy. This is yet another difference, and again why, the Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth. It teaches this properly.

Get your passport ready!
03-21-2019 09:34 PM
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Pride male Offline
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Post: #83
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
Keep calm and take back Constantinople.

Don't debate me.
03-22-2019 04:53 AM
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Mage Offline
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Post: #84
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-21-2019 07:08 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Mage, what exactly made you stop being a Christian? And in hindsight do you think you were ever actually a Christian (i.e. your faith was deep and genuine) or were you just sort of going through the motions and accepting what other people put in front of you? Whenever I read your posts on religion I never doubt your sincerity or intelligence, as you're clearly a very thoughtful and well-read guy, but there's always apparent an underlying tone of pride. It's as if, more than anything else, you simply cannot accept a God who doesn't allow you the opportunity to save yourself. You say that you aren't one of those fucked up people (a depressive, an addict, a degenerate, etc...), and that you're not foolish or simple-minded. Much to the contrary, you're an intellectual, a man of determination, discipline, will and power. You don't need to be saved from anything, the very idea seems to strike you as an insult. In this regard, your attitude perfectly illustrates the danger of pride from the Christian perspective (a danger which the Bible warns about exhaustively) . A lack of humility is a much bigger stumbling block to faith than a high IQ. There have been plenty of highly intelligent Christians, but very few - if any - can come to Christ while swollen with pride and self-righteousness.

I much appreciate your concern Scorpion.

What made me stop being a Christian. Several factors, arranged here randomly not in order of importance:

1)Lack of masculinity in Christianity, Raising feminism in Church Blue pill attitides of priests and fellow laymen / laywomen.

2)Meditation and yoga saved my childhood anxiety, introversion and shyness problems as well as health problems of failing immune system. It Works at least in neuro-somatic level and Christianity doesn't do shit. I had put it aside for some time to focus on Game and worldy development and after that to explore many other paths but I am slowly taking it back and it delivers .

3)Evolutionary psychology that game is based on is not compatible with Original sin doctrine unless you view Genesis in an "occult" Kabalistic way. Bible denies Reincarnation, but why do we are responsible for Adams sins? Obviosly it only works if Adam contained all the human souls with in him that reincarneted in the present form as thought by Kaballah. Christians do not teach this and it makes no sense.

4)I consider one life and possible hell after unfair. A man living 100 yeas must struggle 100 years to resist temptations and to not fall in Hell. An aborted baby a)goes to hell pre Vatican Council II, b) Is automatically saved past Vatican council II. Reincarnation with many lifetimes is just much more fair.

5)Christianity is globalist religion that puts intermediarry between a man and God. Paganism where a man communicates with Nature/God directly is much more masculine, direct and honest, harder to politicize.

6)St Joseph is a cuckold. My faith is that we are divine ourselves not made to be cucked by gods.

7)Studying ancient Church history you can see that the present belifs were codiefied by Paul, Constantince, Nikea council and many "church fathers. Only a minor part of message comes from Jesus. And what comes from Jesus can be interpreted in a Paganic manner easily.

8)Christianity sells solution to a problem it itself sells first. It sells you hell and then it sells you salvation. It is not that I seek or reject a God who wants to save me or insist on saving myself. It is that there is no hell to be saved from. Of course there is the real Hell - the hell of ignorance and impotence (Tama), but Christianity doesn't teach how to escape that. And to be pulled out from this hell by a God is the same as Christian concept of Purgatory. You don't want a cruel God to put the ugly and stinking you in the fine castle to share a table with the Gods. You ask for permission to be worthy and to clean and wash yourself first and to read the etiquette book on your own. And a merciful God grants you that. Only a cruel God would let you sit besides him and give you the felling that you do not deserve this heaven for all eternity. What a torture. True Hell is walking among Gods knowing you are a piece of shit, can do nothing about it and are even denied opportunity to do anything about it any more.

These are my main objections to Christianity.

Were I ever a Christian? Depends on definition. I always (I means since childhood, like 3 years of age) liked the idea and principle of leading a spiritual life and believing in God, but I always rejected some things about the Christian way of doing it. I always knew Gode exists, but is different then these people believe.

About pride:

1)Pride is not only a sin in Christianity. It is in every spiritual path. Greeks caled it hubris, other paths call it using modern word of ego. Christians claim that all other faiths focus on man reaching God without Gods help butthat is a slander. All serious faiths acknowledge the need for God's help, but they also acknowledge that God's help is proportional to our own attempts to reach to him. That is a)because we are part of that divine anyway and our action here cause proprtional actions aboveand b)because God is not going to give gifts to those who are not intrested in them.

2)There is a fine line between confidence and hubris. Game teaches confidence. A man must be confident but not blinded by pride. That is a fine line. Only a man himself can know where the balance is. All the haters, critics and even well meaning frineds can accuse a man of being too arrogant, but fortune loves the bold and women do too and fortune does it because she is a woman. The way I present myself in these posts is one thing and the way I am with another situation may be different. Act boldly on the outside and be retrospective and cautios on the inside may be the key. On the other hand it is important not to become a jerk on the outside and a coward on the inside. This is a queastion of eternal self awareness and eternal self balancing. It is easy to manipulate a person by saying they must be more humble and it is easy to manipulate a person saying they must be more daring. I like most man have missed opportunities because I were too humble or too arrgant at the wrong time and I have achieved things because I were cautious or bold at the right time.
(This post was last modified: 03-22-2019 05:50 AM by Mage.)
03-22-2019 05:13 AM
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Post: #85
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
I'm only passing through to sort something out in private messages - I live a functionally-monastic Life now - but the topic caught my eye, given that I've been investigating Orthodoxy, due to a member asking for advice a while ago, and, well, I've been curious that Catholics consider them part of Mother Church, whilst the Orthodox consider Catholics to be Protestants, and, given the possibility of short haired women taking control of the Australian Church with the Plenary Council, I'd been looking for somewhere to jump ship, should it come to that. Maybe someone more in the know can help answer a question I have about Orthodoxy. Sorry for the length.

From a combination of what I understand as Infused Knowledge, the Ignatian strand of my readings, and my studies of Demonology and Spiritual Warfare, as a Catholic you're taught to be suspicious of anything that seems to be Of God that enters via the sensitive (emotional) faculties, as the Demonic is able to influence those faculties. Luckily, if you learn to Discernment Spirits, you can reliably-predict safe action, based upon your current emotional state (being in spiritual consolation or spiritual desolation).

What you're taught to trust is knowledge that arises via Reason (which can't be influenced) over Emotion (which can), and this has stood me in good staid.

With Infused Knowledge: I'm what is known as a Contemplative, rather than being of Active Order. By this stage, I consider myself a Carmelite in Spirit, though I also often work with the Missionaries of Charity (Mother Theresa) who are Active-Contemplatives, meaning, they're not cloistered. My ability to see patterns and make sense out of random input means I can make links through varied snippets of information received via the faculties of reason, which reliably-guides my way forward, because, to a Contemplative, God is revealed through experience and events, (at least, until my emotions get involved).

This means the process of acquiring Spiritual Knowledge as often happens during my everyday activities and interactions, rather than purely through prayer and spiritual reading alone. So when I speak of receiving 'Infused Knowledge', usually the faculties of reason are engaged via a pattern of experience, which, later on, is then revealed as Truth within reading from multiple sources. Catholicism is agreed upon rather than personally interpreted: the Saints experience the same eventual truth via their different experiences, so you base your trust in material with Imprimaturs and Nihil Obstats: meaning the work is considered free from moral and doctrinal error based upon the agreed upon experiences of the Church.

Oddly though, the Orthodox believe that Reason is just as open to demonic influence as emotion, which, contradicts my constant day-to-day experience of being guided.

Here's an example:

- I've been studying St John of the Cross's Mount of Perfection, knowing that I'm being asked to bear some very heavy crosses that I'm - unfortunately - rebelling against, but having a nagging feeling that I'm pursuing the spiritual goods too hard to avoid doing both what is hard and would involve letting go of my pride. Based upon his teachings, spiritual goods can be just as much a trap as physical goods.

- Now, I am (but am increasingly was) of Melancholic Temperament, which is best repaired by embracing Humility at every opportunity, which is useful, based upon my own tendency to think I know everything due to my intelligence and capacity to pick things up quickly and easily. It's understood worldly intelligence is of absolutely no use once you start sensing the Spiritual World, and its best to proceed as if you know nothing at all: as a child.

- So, I sense that God wants all from me - I've kept my life over the last 12 months very private, though a few know what I've been dealing with - but I'm unable to fully-give myself over to what is known as the Yes of Perfect Consent.

- I would sum this up as being stubbornly-unable to abandon myself to God, because, due to my childhood, I can't fully-trust a Father Figure.

- About 10 weeks ago, I'd ordered, on a whim, not understanding why, a book called 'Self-Abandonment to Divine Providence'. I've learnt to just go with these weird directive impulses now because I know it will become important later. The thing is the book never turned up. About 3 weeks ago, I was listening to a podcast where it was mentioned in passing again, and, once again, go buy it.

- This led me to finding a copy of the book incredibly-cheaply from a town a few hundred miles away, which is when the man in question offered to sell me his entire theological library at a vast discount, and threw in a 19th Century Eucharistic Vault for free, which I arranged for someone else to pick up for me the next time he was passing through.

- I asked the Mother Superior at the Monastery one morning last week about the Mount of Perfection. She said although it has its use, the analogy of ascending a mountain makes it seem far harder than it is, and that it's easy to overthink it and get discouraged.

"Bosch," she said, with that wry smile, "It's really a slide."

- I smiled, but I didn't really register it straight away. Later on that day, as I was watering the greenhouse, and thinking on the theological concept of Spiritual Childhood, it suddenly hit me: I'm a little kid, at the top of a slide, and the Father is down there at the bottom, arms wide, saying "Let go! I'll catch you!" but I'm sitting there, clutching at the top of the slide, too terrified to let go, because it seems so high and so steep.

- Note my choice of words there. It suddenly hit me. I've had a crazy Catholic Stalker I've been navigating for months now, who gets constantly annoyed when I say I won't do what they're telling me to do because it's not From God, and I can recognise their lack of inner peace and any kind of apparent humility.

I've tried to explain this in great detail - I know because it was given to me - but he can't understand it, because he can only see experience via his outsized Pride. I can't possibly be holier than him because he's been doing this for years and does X number of devotions and his statues are bigger than mine, blah blah.

- Now the books turn up, and there's so many of them I only give them a cursory going over.

- I had a conversation with one of the Mother Theresa nuns, and mentioned my sensation that something was spiritually-wrong, and then explained I was finding it increasingly-hard to meditate as I previously had: "So, you're convincing the will that God loves it, which makes the will love God back, but I've got nothing to say, because it seems self-evident to me now." I went on a bit more but what it came down to was me saying "It's not that easy to find God in Prayer any more."

She explained that its how you advance in the spiritual life: it's easy at the beginning because the graces are abundant, but you have to be weaned off them so you love God for his sake, and not for the 'sweets' he gives you.

She told me to read 'The Way of Perfection' by St Theresa of Avila. I said I had attempted to read it months back, but it didn't seem to speak to me, and I just felt confused.

"Bosch, there's certain books we shouldn't read until we're ready, and, even here [in their order] we're often forbidden to read until we're given permission to do so. I recognise where you are."

- I started on it the next day, but, it's written in 1577, and although the language isn't complicated, it just doesn't sing. And I'm annoyed by it and struck by the idea that I should be intelligent enough to make sense of this. It's only later that day that I notice another copy of 'The Way of Perfection' in the pile of books I bought, subtitled, 'Modern English Version'.

- My first though was to ignore it - "I'm too smart for that". Then, I stopped. No. I've been learning to trust humble action, so I decided to read that it.

- Oh man, that book. I can't even begin to describe it. Most people would say it's an 'abridged' version, but that undersells it. It's exactly the same language in question, it's just stripped of every bit of unnecessary waffling around the core point, then presented almost like poetry.

An example:

"When we meditate, using the intellect,
we can hardly ever banish
distracting thoughts of worldly things.
In contemplation, the Lord himself
relieves us of this care,
for He will not trust us
to look after ourselves.
He calls us to His side at once,
and in a single moment
reveals more truths to us
and gives us a clearer insight
into the nature of everything
that we could otherwise gain
in many years.
He brings us to the end of our journey
without our understanding how."


I recognised she's describing Infused Contemplation. As Father Ripperger mentions when you pray to Our Lady of Sorrows about discovering your Primary Defect, you don't 'figure it out', the knowledge just arrives.

See how all it took was being humble to consider the possibility I needed the simpler option?

With moments like this, the Mother Superior is always careful to point out something I already had sensed: this doesn't make you special. It's purely a grace from God, and nothing that you've done has earnt it. I remember Aurini mentioning once he hated how Catholics seem to compete to be more humble than others by confessing their wretchedness. It's more: it becomes a simple admission of truth. God has great mercy and a desire to elevate the pathetic.

- I read the entire book over the next couple of days, and understood that I'd advanced through the lower stages of prayer to what is known as the Prayer of Quiet, where it's simply enough to contemplate God with a simple thought of love, which means abandoning the comfortable and familiar routine of prayer that functions as a security blanket that you've grown out of. Once again, the message is to 'Let go'. You go further by doing less, which, of course, triggers a rebellion of Pride: "I need to do 10 lengthy devotions a day to be holy!" It can't be that easy.

- So, thinking on trust in letting go and simplicity, I went back to writings on St Therese of Lisieux - a very simple cloistered French Nun of little apparent import to those around her who, in her simplicity and humility had being granted such a deep understanding of how to relate to God, became a Doctor of the Church after her death - some of which I'd previously read, thinking, although I think I know I read it, I shouldn't assume anything.

- And there it was, in a book on her I hadn't read: "Holy Daring".

To one who was being intimidated by the thoughts of the dizzy heights that had to be conquered in the spiritual life, Therese wrote:

"I see clearly that you are mistaking the road, and that you will never arrive at the end of your journey. You want to climb the mountain whereas God wishes you to descend it. He is waiting for you in the fruitful valley of humility."


It's the slide again, and the solution to letting go is - as always for me - embracing humility.

See how the process of contemplation works? You innately-understand a deep truth, and then events play out to guide that truth to be reinforced via experience, which strengthens your sense of it via reason.

And this is where it gets frustrating: people who lack any experience at discerning truth label this incredibly-rich, rewarding process, the patterns of which are mapped out in catholic book after book after book, as 'gullibility' or claim all religions are relative. All it really shows is their spiritual autism.

Remember, I'm not special. Anyone can do this, but it involves being Present in the moment as much as is possible. I'd mentioned months back that I'd gradually filtered out as much distraction from my life as possible: movies, gone; Television, gone; music, gone; socialising; video games; internet.

At the end, God Alone remains. When you're not mentally-present in the moment, you're throwing up a wall between you and Him, and I can see he's been gradually stripping me of my willful disassociation from harsh reality, a coping skill I learnt growing up in an abusive home in a violent, poor neighborhood.

When I'd write a song, or watch a movie, or have sex, all I was really doing was blocking the world out by engaging in fantasy constructs. What he's been saying is "No. Stay with me." Which means I've been going through what is known as the Dark Night of the Senses: the things of the world are dry and unappealing, particularly when I try to return to previous patterns of coping behaviour. I have no idea when it ends. I go weeks detached, and I'm fine, then suddenly think I need to buy a New Order record from 1986 and everything will be easy again. (Instead, I listen to it and think... "Man, this is crap. How did I never notice how terrible this is?")

Note that this also includes Spiritual Reading for the sake of intellectual curiousity alone.

Now, think about how obsessed with fantasy entertainment the Left is. Can you see how they can't ever know God? Do you see why all spheres of entertainment are converged and eventually-controlled by a group that doesn't want you ever knowing God? This includes the Leftist tendency to wander off into Gnostic Constructs that appeal to their emotional comfort to insulate themselves from harsh realities: they can't ever see truth because they seek to avoid it at every moment, which is why they tend to believe in naive, utopian Fantasies and can't clearly see themselves as not a good person. This is the classic basic bitch "I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious" stance, including any kind of perceived special / unique status.

So, this is my problem with Orthodoxy. It would say everything I'm describing above can't be from God, yet my issues are being addressed and I'm being given clear direction as to what I need to do next, though I often rebel and fall flat on my face until I understand, as always, that He always tells you the truth, as uncomfortable as it can be to hear.

That being said, I was listening to an Orthodox talk on Digital Culture - I think the internet opens us all up to demonic influence - and their stated advice included a constant engagement with reality and a rejection of mental fantasies.

If anyone who understands their Theology better wants to clear things up for me, feel free. Something I understood a while back is, you know the churches from their fruits, and I was fascinated by how a schism from the Catholic Church only seems to lead to a further schism within the new faith, like the vine can't survive on its own.

There's been a serious schism between Moscow and Constantinople happening in the Orthodox Church since October last year and it only seems to be getting nastier. My curiousity / initial attraction to Orthodoxy was hoping for stability and a lack of infighting.





A simple warning for those who side on reason, I can't take Mage's advice seriously, because he's forming his religious construct via emotion. "If it touches you on a personal level..." This is why I'm suspicious of the Protestant and Charismatic Churches needing to work themselves up into sensing God via music and other appeals to passion.

There's certain spiritual practices I do specifically because they have zero emotional appeal. I often loathe doing the Liturgy of the Hours to the degree I almost convinced myself that the Old Testament is talking about two different Gods. This is done to train you to do what is uncomfortable to your own nature, which protects you from Concupiscence - the imagination causing the movement of the sensitive appetites, whether preceding the will (antecedent) or following free determination of will (Consequent).

By training yourself to fight concupiscence, what you eventually end up with is a deeper emotional resilience: the ability to suffer, which is why an observation like this:

(03-22-2019 05:13 AM)Mage Wrote:  1)Lack of masculinity in Christianity, Raising feminism in Church Blue pill attitides of priests and fellow laymen / laywomen.

... ignores the concept of how hard it is to fight your own desire for comfort, including letting go of your own ego entirely.

I waited for confession tonight, and let everyone go ahead of me, thinking I'd be last, where I belong. Unfortunately, as I went to go in, the Priest came out, running late. This is what Divine Providence gave me. I accept it.

Quote:2)Meditation and yoga saved my childhood anxiety, introversion and shyness problems as well as health problems of failing immune system. It Works at least in neuro-somatic level and Christianity doesn't do shit.

Were you receiving regular communion?
What attachments did you let go of?
What habitual cycles did you challenge?
What level of mortification did you practice?
Did you love the things of the world more than God?
Were you in a state of grace?
Were you still in love with your sins?

Personally, I've found clearly seeing the uncomfortable truth about myself has done wonders to repair what is broken, exactly as is promised, as long as you make the effort to cooperate with grace. When I don't, things go terribly-wrong.

If you don't cooperate, you fall into the state of what is known as a 'retarded soul', the graces stops coming. In extreme cases, sin will no longer be recognised as being sinful. Any kind of sensation of God, if experienced, will only be intermittent, rather than the deeper unions possible.

Quote:3)Evolutionary psychology that game is based on is not compatible with Original sin doctrine unless you view Genesis in an "occult" Kabalistic way. Bible denies Reincarnation, but why do we are responsible for Adams sins? Obviosly it only works if Adam contained all the human souls with in him that reincarneted in the present form as thought by Kaballah. Christians do not teach this and it makes no sense.

You don't seem to understand Catholicism: the Fall broke the Natural Order. Through their action, sin now enters and corrupts everything in the world ever after, meaning, left to our own devices, without god's grace, we will always choose concupiscence - the comfortable evil that gives us pleasure. I've stated before that if you don't swim against the current, you will be taken downstream. The more sin exists in the world, the more the Natural Order will rebel against it.

What God longs to do is to repair the effects of the Fall in each of us, but we are also given the free will to refuse. If you really study the Catholic teaching of the Passion of Christ, it's clearly explained that his sacrifice upon the cross is the undoing of the Fall: he is the fruit (the child) the woman (Mary, the ark of the new covenant) puts back on the tree (the cross) through her complete and total obedience to God's Will, rather than opposing, or even questioning, it. Traditional states that Adam's Skull was buried directly beneath the cross at Golgotha. There's a fascinating book from the early 20th Century called 'How Christ said the first mass' that goes deeply into this.

Jesus undoing the Fall now makes it possible for us to be saved. He's found a loophole in a contract that damned us all and the demons have to abide by it.

Note how at Pentecost the various tongues all hear the same tongue at the message of Christ's resurrection. This is the undoing of the curse of Babel: mankind can once again be united with knowledge of The Word.

Quote:4)I consider one life and possible hell after unfair. A man living 100 yeas must struggle 100 years to resist temptations and to not fall in Hell. An aborted baby a)goes to hell pre Vatican Council II, b) Is automatically saved past Vatican council II. Reincarnation with many lifetimes is just much more fair.

You're speaking from emotion again. Reality is not, and will never ever be 'fair', which is why the Left will constantly fail at trying to make it so.

Understand that God doesn't want to condemn anyone to Hell. Those who are there deliberately-chose separation from God because they chose to be their own Gods: they chose to do their will over his. He knows how horrific their eternal reality will be, which is why Jesus suffered so. They simply don't care.

It's harsh, but he's given everyone the key to their shackles. If they choose to remain bound, it's by choice.

There's no formal teaching on aborted babies in the Catholic Church, just some lengthy speculation by St Thomas Aquinas.

Quote:5)Christianity is globalist religion that puts intermediarry between a man and God. Paganism where a man communicates with Nature/God directly is much more masculine, direct and honest, harder to politicize.

Paganism and New Age were deliberately-seeded into society via the SF Publishing Houses in the late 60's and early 70's, gradually morphing into Gaia / Earth worship, via the entertainment and propaganda arms of (((the usual suspects))). Particularly note how hard they're pushing paganism in entertainment in the last decade. As long as you choose anything but God, they win.

As St Augustine and St Theresa of Avila teach, God is within each one of us: what is known as 'The Little Heaven of the Soul'. Hence the importance of purity: each of us become a temple to host the trinity and to share in their circle of love. The temple is strengthened by the Eucharist and purified of stain by Confession. All you have to do to find God is turn inwards in the moment, and rest in Him.

A Priest is necessary to forgive sins to guarantee the penitent is properly disposed. What is required is the act of humbling oneself to confess one's sins to another. Otherwise, forgiving oneself means pride allows one to ignore the harsh uncomfortable truths of our own behaviour at will, including identifying Recidivist behaviour that will stagnate the spiritual life.

Quote:6)St Joseph is a cuckold. My faith is that we are divine ourselves not made to be cucked by gods.

This is an immature, pride-based assessment of a much richer spiritual reality.

Quote:7)Studying ancient Church history you can see that the present belifs were codiefied by Paul, Constantince, Nikea council and many "church fathers. Only a minor part of message comes from Jesus. And what comes from Jesus can be interpreted in a Paganic manner easily.

Jesus promised the arrival of the Paraclete so his followers would not be orphaned. You'll notice the Gospel repeatedly-stresses their great ignorance of the spiritual realities around them until after the revelation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Their new understanding gives the events of Jesus' life a significance he would have lacked.

I've read many internet experts on how the Church became the Church, incorrectly-pointing to Nicene Council or Constantine, repeating what someone who sounded smart to them had posted earlier. I've yet to hear one who has ever read 'Against Heresies' by Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, who clearly defined what is and isn't dogma before these events ever happen, and whose guidance they follow. It's a neat 700 pages. If you want to understand how Catholicism / Orthodoxy logically and reasonably fits together, and why certain teachings and books were removed from the early church, go for it.

Quote:8)Christianity sells solution to a problem it itself sells first. It sells you hell and then it sells you salvation. It is not that I seek or reject a God who wants to save me or insist on saving myself. It is that there is no hell to be saved from.

I'd more suggest the church offers you healing from the damaging effects of sin, and freedom from enslavement to your sensible appetites, which may have to be completed in purgatory. Note that the children of the adversary - you know who they are - reliably try to control people and lead them astray via those same appetites.

Of course there's a hell - take a look at a group of Leftists and imagine existing as them for any length of time. Note they have no internal peace - the restlessness of their crusades, their inability to see the truth about themselves and anything else.

Quote:True Hell is walking among Gods knowing you are a piece of shit, can do nothing about it and are even denied opportunity to do anything about it any more.

Your perception is warped. What tradition teaches is that your genuine, contrite admission before God that you are, yes, a piece of excrement who tries to be good yet always chooses evil, and, as such, doesn't deserve any reward from him is met with, "Yes, but you're my piece of excrement and I want you with me in paradise." This is why St Therese of Lisieux rightfully understood that there is nothing we can ever do during our time on earth to merit heaven, that when you've sinned against Infinite Goodness you can only ever approach him with empty hands and rely on Infinite Mercy.

He only wants us to own it, rather than to argue with him, trying to justify and excuse our own behaviour: see the Pharisee and the Publican.

Having a better idea of where you're coming from, I have a clearer picture of the truth you can't see about yourself and am saying this out of measured Christian Reproach: you're always in over your head in the religious discussions on this site, and are just picking and choosing what emotionally-appeals to you, which is of no use to anyone but you, since you're not interested in talking about God Objectively, as he is, since you lack any operational experience with him, but only why You, subjectively, should be our God.

So why insert yourself into every religious conversation that isn't titled 'The Gospel of You' and present yourself as some ascended guru, other than some feeble attempt at gaining social recognition for knowledge you don't possess and are uninterested in putting in the required hard work into deeply-studying to rightfully-earn? It's tedious, man.

Man, I can see why I like not having to have an opinion the majority of the time now. A member messaged me a while back, seemingly-in-desolation, saying something like "I'm utterly-tired of hearing myself talk" and all I could think was he's understanding a truth that most never learn, so he's doing far better than he probably thinks he is.
03-22-2019 10:19 AM
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debeguiled Offline
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Post: #86
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-21-2019 09:34 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  
(03-21-2019 10:48 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  Okay. We'll try it from another angle.

Take this girl.

She had a powerful direct experience of Jesus. You can see it in how she talks about him.

I don't know what denominations she is, but it isn't Orthodox.

I am certain you would destroy her in a theological argument.

But her faith just jumps off the screen. This girl gets it in a direct, spiritual sense.

She is a Christian because she has experienced Jesus, and she is all in.

She will keep pushing and growing and learning to strengthen that relationship.

Next to faith and love like that, arguments about specific denominations and practices come across like pointy elbow talk.

But you would see her just as a bad thinker.

You're sort of confirming my suspicions about how emotionally, and not clearly, you are seeing this issue and our discussion. That's why I liked Mage's answer, because I think on average, his analysis is accurate.

You need to get a few things straight, debeguiled, and I am being direct and firm because you are unfairly, and I hope not purposefully, claiming that I am saying things that I am not saying.

When did I ever talk about "destroying her in a theological argument" or anyone else? You are putting that baggage on, and it's got nothing to do with me or any of my comments here. Let me restate my purpose on this thread, and my posts which support the fact that:

The Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth.

I think that is appropriate for a thread that is called "What is Orthodox Christianity"? Don't you?

Did I ever say that "ONLY the Orthodox Church has any element of the truth"? NO.

Your statements, taken to a logical end, as I've shown and Mage even hints at above, render the point of there being a Church (which is mentioned importantly in the gospels beyond being required to make critical sense of christianity) null and void.

So, the question is then, what is the point of the church? Or, what is the church? Or, why do we need the church? God could have just randomly instilled some magic ethereal nothingness that you keep referring to, in order to show us who those "true christians" were without anything historically --- but then we'd have to believe them by their words, it would be impossible to verify truly, and basically ... we'd have protestantism as now is --- grab a bible, and tell me, one of you 30,000 different whatevers, what you think is going on here. You can go on believing that if you want, but not admitting it is a huge problem makes you look undisciplined in your thinking and not honest to the points I'm bringing up.

Mostly I'm responding so that you'll stop putting words into my mouth, ad-libbing things I have never stated nor made points about.

Jesus Christ is the Truth; of course, he is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

The Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth about the Son of Man, the Wisdom, Word and Power of God. I say that because it is a true statement. I say it also because you cannot just pick up a "Bible" and figure that out by yourself.

And again, NO, I do not know who will be saved. But I do know what must be done to be saved, with God's mercy. This is yet another difference, and again why, the Orthodox Church has the fullness of the truth. It teaches this properly.

Well this thread is about Orthodox Christianity, and I don't want to be part of derailing it anymore, so I am not going to argue a bunch of points back and forth anymore.

My main point has always been that Orthodox Christianity is one of many denominations of Christianity and if it works for you, that is all good.

Being too worried about being part of the true or original church just leads to pride, which gets in the way of the whole enterprise.

That is what I have been warning against.

This seems to be lost and I am being charged with all sorts of emotions I am not feeling as well as believing churches are pointless and anything goes and you might as well sacrifice babies or whatever. I don't think I am the one being emotional or failing to address what other people have said, I think the opposite is true.

There is a lot of squid ink being squirted all over the place at the moment.

So, I'm bowing out of the wranglings.

Jesus is the man.

Pride is the killer.

Enjoy your discussion.

Enjoy this video too, though it is about Jesus and involves some people of low character. So it might not be up the standards of some.




“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
03-22-2019 12:37 PM
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Post: #87
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Having a better idea of where you're coming from, I have a clearer picture of the truth you can't see about yourself and am saying this out of measured Christian Reproach: you're always in over your head in the religious discussions on this site, and are just picking and choosing what emotionally-appeals to you, which is of no use to anyone but you, since you're not interested in talking about God Objectively, as he is, since you lack any operational experience with him, but only why You, subjectively, should be our God.

So why insert yourself into every religious conversation that isn't titled 'The Gospel of You' and present yourself as some ascended guru, other than some feeble attempt at gaining social recognition for knowledge you don't possess and are uninterested in putting in the required hard work into deeply-studying to rightfully-earn?


I've boiled this down to the full stops.

I was going to say to Mage: "You sound like Jesus!!".

But I thought better of it, not being religiously educated and all that.

It did sound as if he was a half step away from starting his own cult!

It sounds to me like Mage is just finding his own way out. It's almost like atheism taken to an extreme. But it works for him.

And of course, this thing you found, works for you, and that seems like 'religionism' taken to the other extreme.

I'm glad you found your way out Bosch.

It's a personal thing. Nobody cares. I think this is what Debeguiled is trying to transmit. He once sent me a PM to do with Religion. It was about 5 words long. And that was it! Never heard from him again. Hardly a god-botherer. Hope you don't mind me divulging our most absolute secret brother, eh eh.

But it was very pertinent to what I was talking about, seeking. Writing a most personal and heartfelt post. It was more than most people bothered to respond to. Appreciated.

I like the school of Debeguiled. I think it has its place among the arguments here. Just as I like the school of Paracelsus. Catholicism. I've heard of it. Protestantism. I've heard of that too.

'Though I've tried to find the answer to all the questions they ask.
'Though I know it's impossible to go livin' through the past -






I found my first taste of God listening to Reggae music. Yeah, I know it's a painful cliche. Fucking dog painful. I've disowned it since. But maybe I shouldn't have. I gave up dope a long time ago.

And now I see all these lost souls, seeking, without knowing they are seeking.

I'm glad you found your path.

I found mine. And it was no path at all. It turned out to be nothing. Sick of my own voice? Sure. Sick of everyone else's voice too. Even the 'Gods'.

I don't want the 'Gods' it would seem. I want the 'God'. But that's just me.

I'm always ready to listen to a true seeker though. And that is what you strike me as. More a seeker than an evangelist of any pronounced religion with all the dogma that entails.

Don't mind Mage. He's young. He'll hate me for saying this.

You are an old soul Bosch.

Debeguiled is the wise one. But he'd be the first to admit he's not 'right'.





We are all just errand boys.


You've heard the same joke a million times before told in a million different ways. And you are tired of it. Of your own voice. Of the teachings of men, of the ways of men.

Buddha was dead for nearly half a millenium until they first put his words down on paper. He lived at the same time as Jesus. Many of his works still not translated today. They call it the school of the elders, or the lesser vehicle. Hinayana, or Theravada Buddhism. The inferior vehicle.

Whatever. Buddha had been long gone for centuries before anyone put pen to paper. Chinese whispers.

It's ok.

Then they took that, and built on that. Then they took that and built on that again.

The stuff you are studying Bosch seems equally as esoteric to me, even though I'm sure it's not. I'm sure you know what you are doing. But please see that it is somewhat esoteric to the rest of us, even those among us that 'follow' Christianity.

But if you think Mage is not worthy to take part in these religious discussions, Lord knows what you must think of me butting in and making as ass of myself. That's ok.

I'm glad you found your own way out.
03-22-2019 09:55 PM
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Post: #88
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
I'm informing people about Orthodox Christianity, that is the thread, I plan to tell everyone about it who is interested --- for reasons stated.

There are many, hugely problematic parts of Western Christianity, things that have led to our current situation in the West. Of course, many factors are at play, but really bad theology and practice, as well as teaching has helped the falling away from what was once the bedrock of the society.

If you don't realize that, I don't think you're paying attention, or being honest. There is a reason why this thread was created, and why people are drawn to the teachings of the ancient christian church that we see all around the internet, now that more information is accessible and more available about it.

Get your passport ready!
03-22-2019 09:58 PM
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Post: #89
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
To show how the process continues, and to tie Truth back to Orthodoxy:

- I mentioned the 'Self-abandonment to divine providence' book by Jean-Pierre De Caussade. I didn't mention my experience with it. I found it largely-impenetrable - sentences often make no literal sense, like it's been run through a translator to another language and then back into English - though was glimpsing at something within the words that held deep value.

- I'd researched online, and discovered the version I had was considered terrible, and what I wanted was the highly-regarded John Beevers translation, which turned out to be the version I originally ordered.

- It turned up in the post out the blue yesterday, though I was expecting it mid-April.

- After writing what I wrote last night, I was struck by the coincidence of its arrival, and understood, this means something.

- Written in the 1700's, it's a very interesting book. It turned out to be about Always Being Present in the moment, which allows you to respond to God's Will in the moment: the 'Yes of Perfect Consent'.

- I made the obvious connection with St Therese of Lisieux, writing in the late 1800's: "What are the demands of love in this moment?" Note that she was unaware of the work, only having access to the Gospels and a book I mentioned last year: 'The Imitation of Christ'.

- But I then saw the link between these two works and an obscure Carmelite Writer, Brother Lawrence, writing in the 1600's. His book, 'The Practice of the Presence of God', caught my attention because, over three days, I heard the phrase on a podcast, in my book of daily mediations and then stumbled across his book of the same title online. Once again, it always means something.

[Image: 75v6s8.jpg]

- All three of them functionally have the exact same understanding of what God and how best to serve him, even in the midst of furious activity which should block your interaction with him. Although written hundreds of years apart, their Experience of Truth is the same. This is because God never changes, which explains why those who can't see Truth always bleat on about 'progress' (atheists), 'modernism' (Catholics) or 'Progressive revelation' (Jews, and, increasingly, the protestant schism churches).

- This is why Catholicism appeals to my reason: multiple experiences support each other, up until the entry of the Modernists last century, which was prophesized to happen. I suspect the simple meeting of Saint Therese of Lisieux - whose teachings function as a gift on how to survive both modernism and schism - as a fourteen year old girl with Pope Leo - who had a vision of Satan's attack on the Church Hierarchy in the 20th century and so composed the Prayer to Saint Michael - to suggest design more than coincidence.

----

Now, saying that, I mentioned an Orthodox Lecture I watched a while back on being present in the modern age. Here it is, both text and video version:

http://deathtotheworld.com/articles/atte...l-culture/

Note towards the end:

Quote:In order to realize our calling, attentiveness must be our fundamental attitude and ethos. Without attentiveness there is no prayer, and without prayer, there is no communion with God, no participation in divine life. The practice of inner attention, of descending with the mind into the heart, is both an activity and a way of life that locates us in authentic existence, that is, in our relationship to God.

'Attentiveness' = 'The practice of the presence of God'

'Descending with the mind into the heart' = entering 'the little heaven of your soul' i.e. the awareness of the indwelling nature of the the Trinity

What he's discussing matches Catholic Theology, so there's some level of seeing Truth there in Orthodoxy, as opposed to a Protestant work like, say, 'The Misunderstood God' by Darin Hufford, which via the sensible faculties, systematically contradicts the teachings of the Doctors of the Church. You can tell those who serve the Adversary, because they always negate the need for suffering / carrying your cross in their theology. "God wants you to have nice things!"

Note that he mentions the Desert Fathers in that video, such as St Anthony and St Basil. The work you want on Anthony is 'Athanasius', pictured with the 'Against Heresies' book I mentioned in the last thread.

[Image: jwyqc4.jpg]

Here's the St Basil homily mentioned by the Orthodox Priest:

https://sites.google.com/site/stbasilasc...to-thyself

Reading it, once again, the same ideas jumps out:

Quote:'Give heed to thyself,' then and bear in mind that one part of your soul is rational and intelligent, the other emotional and non-rational. Authority belongs to the former by nature and to the latter, submission and obedience to the reason. Never, therefore, allow your mind to become the bound slave of the passions, nor permit the passions to rise up against reason and usurp power over the soul. In short, scrupulous attention to yourself will be of itself sufficient to guide you to the knowledge of God. If you give heed to yourself, you will not need to look for signs of the Creator in the structure of the universe; but in yourself, as in a miniature replica of cosmic order, you will contemplate the great wisdom of the Creator. From the incorporeal soul within you, learn that God is incorporeal and without local determination.

Once again, note the turning inward to find God. So if the Orthodox are still teaching St Basil, they're somewhat united with Truth.

So when does Orthodoxy diverge into becoming suspicious of reason as open to demonic influence? I have no idea. Is it after the Schism, where odd ideas like 'the Tollhouses' enter dogma?



(This post was last modified: 03-22-2019 11:05 PM by AnonymousBosch.)
03-22-2019 10:53 PM
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Post: #90
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
Rigsby: no, I'm not dumping on the kid, but I'm just point out a hard truth that Mage doesn't see about himself - that he sees things the spiritual world emotionally, meaning, he'll predictably-succumb to concupiscence, and the discussions descend into what is FELT to be the truth, which, if you've ever gamed any woman and you start getting into spirituality, is ALL that you'll get from them on the subject, let alone anything else. I think it was either St Aquinas or St Augustine who defines the Effeminate as choosing what is easy over what is hard. This can include discarding an uncomfortable truth for a comfortable one. Look at women virtue signalling about how Islam is a religion of peace the last couple of days. They're incapable of having a difficult discussion over harsh reality, so choose a comfortable descent into utopian fantasy. And that's OK, I expect that from a woman. But when a man couches such a discussion into social posturing of his superior masculinity whilst being ill-informed and emotionally-driven, it's, as I said tedious. I doubt the Orthodox Patriarchs wouldn't tolerate it either, because lying to them only encourages their self-delusion, and, well, no-one is fooled by this kind of behaviour. Even St Therese understood that when she was put in charge of formation of the novices: "it's no point them coming to me if they don't want to hear the truth about themselves". She understood the demand of love was to not coddle them into self-delusion, even if it meant she wouldn't be liked.

Re-read the bolded part of the St Basil quote above.

Anyway, that's enough internet for the week. I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the sense of separation the internet generates.
03-22-2019 11:11 PM
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Post: #91
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
A few quick things:

AB, the idea of "toll houses" is certainly not dogma. There is very limited dogma within the eastern orthodox church's teachings. There are certainly teachings which are authoritative and not to be disputed, basically that which is in the Nicene Creed and affirmed at the Ecumenical Councils.

I wanted to mention also that each of Mage's previous "problems" with Christianity prove my point on why this thread, and interest in the Orthodox Church persists. Each of those complaints is precisely due to the improper teachings of the West, and is fully explained and satisfactory, as well as true, in Orthodox teaching.

There are so many things not even known by westerners regarding the obviously more sound, and factually correct answers of Orthodoxy regarding the church and tradition. For example, you will never know, having grown up with a protestant background, that Joseph was an old man when he took marry as his wife. That he already had a family, and that these were Jesus step brothers (example, "James the brother of our Lord"). As such, calling him something like a "cuck" is as ridiculous as calling the virgin Mary a "whore" --- and it is in fact much worse, since he was doing something according to the will of God and that it was to protect an innocent woman whose life was at stake. It misses the entire point of their life stories and the details therein, focusing on some end result blindly and without consideration of the facts at hand. It is sad when this ignorance shows itself.
03-23-2019 11:04 AM
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Post: #92
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
^ Thanks for the correction, KT, but hearing that it's not dogma after the discussions I've read suggests the the Orthodox Laity aren't necessarily much better informed than the Catholic Laity.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 06:27 AM by AnonymousBosch.)
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Mage Offline
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Post: #93
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  A simple warning for those who side on reason, I can't take Mage's advice seriously, because he's forming his religious construct via emotion. "If it touches you on a personal level..." This is why I'm suspicious of the Protestant and Charismatic Churches needing to work themselves up into sensing God via music and other appeals to passion.

There's certain spiritual practices I do specifically because they have zero emotional appeal. I often loathe doing the Liturgy of the Hours to the degree I almost convinced myself that the Old Testament is talking about two different Gods. This is done to train you to do what is uncomfortable to your own nature, which protects you from Concupiscence - the imagination causing the movement of the sensitive appetites, whether preceding the will (antecedent) or following free determination of will (Consequent).

By training yourself to fight concupiscence, what you eventually end up with is a deeper emotional resilience: the ability to suffer, which is why an observation like this:

It is absolutely your hasty cooked up interpretation that my beliefs are caused by my so called emotions. If all you have to think that way is that I wrote something about "touching on personal level" then I must laugh at how tiny straws you grasp to find fault in my posts. By "touching on personal level" I mean identifying a truth that can be applicable in real life of an individual as opposed to something merely theoretical and I do not mean by that something that makes one happy or excited.

(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
(03-22-2019 05:13 AM)Mage Wrote:  1)Lack of masculinity in Christianity, Raising feminism in Church Blue pill attitides of priests and fellow laymen / laywomen.

... ignores the concept of how hard it is to fight your own desire for comfort, including letting go of your own ego entirely.

I waited for confession tonight, and let everyone go ahead of me, thinking I'd be last, where I belong. Unfortunately, as I went to go in, the Priest came out, running late. This is what Divine Providence gave me. I accept it.

Non coherent answer. First paragraph is an insult that does't apply to the argument a all. Second paragraph about your confession problems is also not relevant.

(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:2)Meditation and yoga saved my childhood anxiety, introversion and shyness problems as well as health problems of failing immune system. It Works at least in neuro-somatic level and Christianity doesn't do shit.

Were you receiving regular communion?
What attachments did you let go of?
What habitual cycles did you challenge?
What level of mortification did you practice?
Did you love the things of the world more than God?
Were you in a state of grace?
Were you still in love with your sins?

Personally, I've found clearly seeing the uncomfortable truth about myself has done wonders to repair what is broken, exactly as is promised, as long as you make the effort to cooperate with grace. When I don't, things go terribly-wrong.

If you don't cooperate, you fall into the state of what is known as a 'retarded soul', the graces stops coming. In extreme cases, sin will no longer be recognised as being sinful. Any kind of sensation of God, if experienced, will only be intermittent, rather than the deeper unions possible.

Maybe it's your soul that is retarded. You seem to have a habit to conceal insults as theological arguments.

Deep union and sensation of God comes during Yoga and meditation which also involves mortification, letting go of attachments and all the good stuff that you mixed there with the useless stuff like going to communion and similar.


(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:3)Evolutionary psychology that game is based on is not compatible with Original sin doctrine unless you view Genesis in an "occult" Kabalistic way. Bible denies Reincarnation, but why do we are responsible for Adams sins? Obviosly it only works if Adam contained all the human souls with in him that reincarneted in the present form as thought by Kaballah. Christians do not teach this and it makes no sense.

You don't seem to understand Catholicism: the Fall broke the Natural Order. Through their action, sin now enters and corrupts everything in the world ever after, meaning, left to our own devices, without god's grace, we will always choose concupiscence - the comfortable evil that gives us pleasure. I've stated before that if you don't swim against the current, you will be taken downstream. The more sin exists in the world, the more the Natural Order will rebel against it.

What God longs to do is to repair the effects of the Fall in each of us, but we are also given the free will to refuse. If you really study the Catholic teaching of the Passion of Christ, it's clearly explained that his sacrifice upon the cross is the undoing of the Fall: he is the fruit (the child) the woman (Mary, the ark of the new covenant) puts back on the tree (the cross) through her complete and total obedience to God's Will, rather than opposing, or even questioning, it. Traditional states that Adam's Skull was buried directly beneath the cross at Golgotha. There's a fascinating book from the early 20th Century called 'How Christ said the first mass' that goes deeply into this.

Jesus undoing the Fall now makes it possible for us to be saved. He's found a loophole in a contract that damned us all and the demons have to abide by it.

Note how at Pentecost the various tongues all hear the same tongue at the message of Christ's resurrection. This is the undoing of the curse of Babel: mankind can once again be united with knowledge of The Word.

Again you had to start with a mild insult of me not understanding Catholicism.

So Adam's sin broke not himself inside, but the world outside him? That is fucked up reasoning. God made world but Adam broke it and led it to this stage of Fall and we must all suffer for that? Why cannot God repair the world outside of us? Is he not all-powerful? I understand God leaving our inner repairs to us as a means of personal growth, but this would once again imply that we are reincarnated fragments of Adams soul.

I would accept all this theory about God looking for loopholes like a thief at night if Christians would not insist on God's omnipotence and omni-benevolence at the same time. God could easily save all the humanity from any problem if he had the power and the will. Either he is limited by some laws even above him like Karma or he just doesn't really care enough.

Omnipotent beings do not look for loopholes, that is for the weak. Omnipotent beings make the rules themselves.


(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:4)I consider one life and possible hell after unfair. A man living 100 yeas must struggle 100 years to resist temptations and to not fall in Hell. An aborted baby a)goes to hell pre Vatican Council II, b) Is automatically saved past Vatican council II. Reincarnation with many lifetimes is just much more fair.

You're speaking from emotion again. Reality is not, and will never ever be 'fair', which is why the Left will constantly fail at trying to make it so.

Understand that God doesn't want to condemn anyone to Hell. Those who are there deliberately-chose separation from God because they chose to be their own Gods: they chose to do their will over his. He knows how horrific their eternal reality will be, which is why Jesus suffered so. They simply don't care.

It's harsh, but he's given everyone the key to their shackles. If they choose to remain bound, it's by choice.

There's no formal teaching on aborted babies in the Catholic Church, just some lengthy speculation by St Thomas Aquinas.

Atheists can say that life is not fair. If you believe that your God is Omnipotent and omnibenevolent then there is no place for unfairness in the world. If you as a Christian use that argument about life being unfair then you have failed as a thinker.

This is not emotion, but simple logic. You get minus points in my eyes for insulting my again for being emotional when it is such a simple rational concept.

No teaching on aborted babies is a minus. Belief systems with reincarnation do not have this problem.


(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:5)Christianity is globalist religion that puts intermediarry between a man and God. Paganism where a man communicates with Nature/God directly is much more masculine, direct and honest, harder to politicize.

Paganism and New Age were deliberately-seeded into society via the SF Publishing Houses in the late 60's and early 70's, gradually morphing into Gaia / Earth worship, via the entertainment and propaganda arms of (((the usual suspects))). Particularly note how hard they're pushing paganism in entertainment in the last decade. As long as you choose anything but God, they win.

As St Augustine and St Theresa of Avila teach, God is within each one of us: what is known as 'The Little Heaven of the Soul'. Hence the importance of purity: each of us become a temple to host the trinity and to share in their circle of love. The temple is strengthened by the Eucharist and purified of stain by Confession. All you have to do to find God is turn inwards in the moment, and rest in Him.

A Priest is necessary to forgive sins to guarantee the penitent is properly disposed. What is required is the act of humbling oneself to confess one's sins to another. Otherwise, forgiving oneself means pride allows one to ignore the harsh uncomfortable truths of our own behaviour at will, including identifying Recidivist behaviour that will stagnate the spiritual life.

What (((usual suspects))) are pushing is not true Paganism, but half truths and disinformation to keep normie Christians in their churches and not to look around. Portray Paganism as sexual deviancy, child sacrifice or something silly to slander it's image. You bought it like a good sheep.

Confessing your sins loudly does have the therapeutic effect you describe, but it is nothing supernatural. Still actually correcting your nature is what really matters. Confessing can be helpful no doubt, but it alone will do nothing. Priest is not necessary, it can be everyone who share your values. It is kinda lame to confess to a more ignorant person then you.


(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:6)St Joseph is a cuckold. My faith is that we are divine ourselves not made to be cucked by gods.

This is an immature, pride-based assessment of a much richer spiritual reality.

Being a cuck is a sign of maturity in your blue pill opinion. Ok.

(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:7)Studying ancient Church history you can see that the present belifs were codiefied by Paul, Constantince, Nikea council and many "church fathers. Only a minor part of message comes from Jesus. And what comes from Jesus can be interpreted in a Paganic manner easily.

Jesus promised the arrival of the Paraclete so his followers would not be orphaned. You'll notice the Gospel repeatedly-stresses their great ignorance of the spiritual realities around them until after the revelation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Their new understanding gives the events of Jesus' life a significance he would have lacked.

I've read many internet experts on how the Church became the Church, incorrectly-pointing to Nicene Council or Constantine, repeating what someone who sounded smart to them had posted earlier. I've yet to hear one who has ever read 'Against Heresies' by Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, who clearly defined what is and isn't dogma before these events ever happen, and whose guidance they follow. It's a neat 700 pages. If you want to understand how Catholicism / Orthodoxy logically and reasonably fits together, and why certain teachings and books were removed from the early church, go for it.

Jesus promised he would return within the same generation his apostles were alive. He didn't.

How about You read some non Catholic literature instead.

If you read Catholic books you start thinking more like a Catholic. I have no doubts about that. Read more Atheist books and start thinking more like Atheist. Think more Jewish books an start thinking more like a Jew.

I have no interest in becoming more Catholic again so I will not be reading that. Just to refute the points that the book makes? Maybe someday. In nearest future I am planning to research more about Truths then debunking Fallacies.

(03-22-2019 10:19 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  
Quote:8)Christianity sells solution to a problem it itself sells first. It sells you hell and then it sells you salvation. It is not that I seek or reject a God who wants to save me or insist on saving myself. It is that there is no hell to be saved from.

I'd more suggest the church offers you healing from the damaging effects of sin, and freedom from enslavement to your sensible appetites, which may have to be completed in purgatory. Note that the children of the adversary - you know who they are - reliably try to control people and lead them astray via those same appetites.

Of course there's a hell - take a look at a group of Leftists and imagine existing as them for any length of time. Note they have no internal peace - the restlessness of their crusades, their inability to see the truth about themselves and anything else.

Quote:True Hell is walking among Gods knowing you are a piece of shit, can do nothing about it and are even denied opportunity to do anything about it any more.

Your perception is warped. What tradition teaches is that your genuine, contrite admission before God that you are, yes, a piece of excrement who tries to be good yet always chooses evil, and, as such, doesn't deserve any reward from him is met with, "Yes, but you're my piece of excrement and I want you with me in paradise." This is why St Therese of Lisieux rightfully understood that there is nothing we can ever do during our time on earth to merit heaven, that when you've sinned against Infinite Goodness you can only ever approach him with empty hands and rely on Infinite Mercy.

He only wants us to own it, rather than to argue with him, trying to justify and excuse our own behaviour: see the Pharisee and the Publican.

Having a better idea of where you're coming from, I have a clearer picture of the truth you can't see about yourself and am saying this out of measured Christian Reproach: you're always in over your head in the religious discussions on this site, and are just picking and choosing what emotionally-appeals to you, which is of no use to anyone but you, since you're not interested in talking about God Objectively, as he is, since you lack any operational experience with him, but only why You, subjectively, should be our God.

So why insert yourself into every religious conversation that isn't titled 'The Gospel of You' and present yourself as some ascended guru, other than some feeble attempt at gaining social recognition for knowledge you don't possess and are uninterested in putting in the required hard work into deeply-studying to rightfully-earn? It's tedious, man.

Man, I can see why I like not having to have an opinion the majority of the time now. A member messaged me a while back, seemingly-in-desolation, saying something like "I'm utterly-tired of hearing myself talk" and all I could think was he's understanding a truth that most never learn, so he's doing far better than he probably thinks he is.

Mandatory insult about my perception being warped.

Well at least I am not an excrement, like you said good Christians believe themselves to be.

Are you not tired of hearing the same sermons and repeating them?

What I may say might be right, might be wrong. At least it is some rather avaunt-garde thinking of our times. Repeating the old and not working Church teachings in a free thinker forum is not going to get us anywhere.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 11:26 AM by Mage.)
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Rigsby Offline
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Post: #94
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(03-22-2019 11:11 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Rigsby: no, I'm not dumping on the kid, but I'm just point out a hard truth that Mage doesn't see about himself - that he sees things the spiritual world emotionally, meaning, he'll predictably-succumb to concupiscence, and the discussions descend into what is FELT to be the truth, which, if you've ever gamed any woman and you start getting into spirituality, is ALL that you'll get from them on the subject, let alone anything else.

....

I didn't think you were dumping on the kid. More giving him a litte slap against his head.

Mage has a certain arrogance about it all. You picked up on that.

We've all been there. True seekers, anyway. Whether we found what we were looking for...

I see that Mage has responded to you at length. Your words ring a bell with him.

I only mildly insulted him. But then again, I know where he is coming from and I probably subscribe to his more 'esoteric' school more than you. I hope he understands that. I have respect for him.

I like Mage. I like how he can have an argument. He's very mature in that way.

I also have a soft spot for you too Bosch, as you know. And I like how you have pursued your path. Burning with the light of it all, almost, yet you do not foist it on others. You only show the way, like that old alchemical symbol of the old man at the end of the path with a lantern.

"Which way do we go, old man? Should we turn left, or right?"

"This is the way young ones. To the left is that path, to the right is the other"

I considered joining a monastery. But for Buddhists. Then I decided I did not like the ways of men. I don't have a problem with the gods. It's people I have a problem with. And don't get me started on Female Buddhist Monks. No!

Mage is alright. He's just one man. He's an RVF brother. He takes the time to lucidly make his point. I'd like to delve deeper in to his world, as I would yours, but now is not the time or the place.

I hope you get the time and the inclination to report back from the edge Bosch.

You've written the book on bitches and I've drunk deep from that well.

You are on new ground. Sending postcards from the edge.

For every fuckwit like me that comments, there is a hundred more that reads and probably understands more than I ever will.

This is not just idle speculation. Some of us really are trying to get to the bottom of it.


A gentle reminder to you:

Be humble.
Be detached.
Be generous with what you have learned.
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Post: #95
RE: What is Orthodox Christianity?
(Yesterday 06:26 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  ^ Thanks for the correction, KT, but hearing that it's not dogma after the discussions I've read suggests the the Orthodox Laity aren't necessarily much better informed than the Catholic Laity.

Please provide me any resources you have to support this assertion. Again, like I said earlier, if it's not in the Creed or pointedly in the Councils as an issue, it isn't dogma. Certainly, anything regarding the afterlife (and this is even more esoteric, though I of course understand that it is a topic brought up here and there) cannot, almost by definition, be in the realm of dogmatic theology.

Get your passport ready!
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 11:33 PM by Kid Twist.)
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