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The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
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Beirut Online
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Post: #51
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-06-2019 12:42 AM)Delta Wrote:  I didn't intend to have a discussion about how to bring more women across my path, because (1) it's fairly obvious how that would be done, but it involves serious time, energy, sacrifice, and restructuring of my life that I'd rather avoid, (2) I get enough leads to keep me busy currently, and (3) my goal is not to become a high n superstar player.

What I'm at a loss to explain isn't why I don't land 3-4 dates per week, it's why I consistently get such indifferent responses from the women I do pursue and date. Here's a very timely example: Since posting this thread, I asked a girl out for a second date, to which she replied that she'd have to figure out her schedule and see when she's free, a behavior pattern I've encountered many instances of recently. A few days later, in a move uncharacteristically up-front for chicks, she got back and explained this to me as having felt "completely neutral" about how our first date went and not knowing what to make of it. Needless to say, there isn't a second date in the works. I mean that's exactly how I diagnose such situations anyway, but it's still jarring to hear out loud, especially since these "not committing to another date but not flat out rejecting it yet" type responses are such a recurring pattern for me.

What's clear to me is this- I'm not doing anything at all ostensibly "wrong," but I'm still failing to push the attraction buttons. As I explained in the OP, I can confidently say I'm way ahead of the curve in terms of self-improvement/building value. I have no problem holding a conversation with girls that aren't socially retarded; usually they're happy to hang out and chat for as long as I let it go on, whether that's 2, 3, 4 hours or even longer. They tend to be pretty compliant too, my venue bounces are rarely met with resistance. I know to kino/escalate and usually when I have the desire to, I can bring things to at least some light kissing. So it's hard to say what needs to change. Do I need to go on steroids and look like a bodybuilder rather than just a regular sized athletic and toned dude? Do I need to piss away money on status symbols to look like a major baller? Do I need to pretend to have more in common with these girls to try and manufacture the "connection"? Do I need to be hyper-aggressive and try to fuck every girl in the back seat of the car on date 1? Is it really near-impossible to succeed without good first date bang logistics as some have suggested?


I wouldnt dismiss our advice about getting girls in other ways just yet. Its not just about more quantity, but its also different quality (and i dont mean attractiveness wise).

For example, a lot of girls online are in shopping mode and dates with them are like an interview and theyre interviewing several guys at once constantly

While on the other hand, when you have girls in your social circle, their attraction for you builds over time and is already high once you go on a date as opposed to online. Or when you meet a girl from nightlife you are riding an energy and emotional high which is more sexual by default.


Now if you insist on narrowing the scope to just dates with these online girls, Its kind of hard to give any advice without knowing you or what goes on.

If i had to guess from your tone, maybe you are too square and dry? Your posts
sort of seem that way (im reaching but we have very little to go by). Youre relying on your logical positive attributes to get you accross the line but youre not hitting the primal and emotional switches.

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04-06-2019 12:28 PM
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Post: #52
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
OP, you seem to be on top of your game, so it's weird that you're not getting results. I'd step back and try to look at this from another angle. Do you have any friends or acquaintances who are doing well with girls? How are guys in your social circle doing? Do they get the same treatment that you're running into? If you can think of any guys who are doing well, what are they doing differently? I think it's important for you to analyse this to figure out whether the problem is you or them (the ladies). Do you have any guy friends with whom you can discuss this kind of thing honestly? Get their input.

Now, I could be totally wrong, but from reading your posts my impression is that you're missing an edge. You might be coming across as too nice a guy. As we all know, girls love guys that have an element of danger to them.
04-06-2019 12:53 PM
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RDF Offline
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Post: #53
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
After reading your most recent post, it finally makes sense to me why you are not getting results.

While you've been on this forum for some time and surely have a great textbook understanding of the "red pill" and female nature, you are not applying that understanding to your game.

Knowing about the nature of women and actually applying it are two very different things.

Some people ("naturals") never need to read about game/female nature and don't know shit about the terminology, but naturally understand how to run their interactions taking those things into account. Meanwhile, some people on our side of the internet are the opposite. They know all about the terminology, but when push comes to shove, they expect women to be logical and respond to their actions rather than push buttons to lead to an emotional response (ie: "game").

The giveaway for me is when you described your dates - "2-4 hours, venue change, kino, bit of kissing". That is a description of the most generic date that every chick who's on dating apps experiences 3 times/week. There is no value in a long, boring conversation.

When a girl tells you some bullshit like "I didn't feel the spark", she is saying that you did not excite her. In this day when women have unlimited options on their phones, the most important thing is to be INTERESTING. It does not really matter how much money you have or how good looking/jacked you are if you are boring and passive. They will lose interest to a guy who has those traits but who is also enjoyable to be around.

For dating in the US (especially online), I firmly believe that the following is true, and you will see better results if you avoid these pitfalls.

--- If you do not try to escalate with a girl past light kissing, you will lose leads. Even if it does not work, they will usually respect you for trying.

--- If you do not share exciting aspects of your personality and personable stories in your conversation, you will lose leads. Robotic conversations about your jobs or your favorite movie/song/concert will bore the shit out of most girls. They will probably be more excited if you tell them you've been to prison. There's no need to lie about things, but you need to dig deep and find interesting things about yourself and show them. If you don't have these things to share, then you need to exit your comfort zone and gain new experiences.

--- If you are not getting a girl genuinely engaged in you, you will lose leads. "Compliance" doesn't mean much on a first date. The goal of a first date is to get the girl interested in who you are and to make her want to see you again. You can do this in multiple ways but the idea is to present an aura of mystery while sharing enough to get her excited.

-- Read any game post from WIA, PapayaTapper, or Noir. I've learned a ton from these guys about how to hit a girls emotional buttons.

You're right, uprooting your life and moving might not be the right solution here since you say you're getting consistent new leads. I strongly advise you to work on your date game and you will do better at closing these leads.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2019 02:46 PM by RDF.)
04-06-2019 02:46 PM
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Elmore Offline
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Post: #54
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(03-24-2019 10:00 PM)scorpion Wrote:  It's truly incredible how much game has changed in the past decade. It's literally a whole different ballgame. In some ways, the game of 2019 is actually a return to normalcy in the sense that women are starting to turn back towards social circle. The only difference is how much of an outsized role technology is playing, and how invasive it has become in the sexual marketplace and in human socialization in general. The sort of "lone wolf" style game that Roosh and many guys on the forum practiced successfully may turn out to simply have been a flash in the pan phenomenon enabled by a confluence of social and technological factors, which resulted in the atomization of society that had hollowed out in-person social interaction and communities by the late 90s and early 2000s. This left a sort of social vacuum for lone wolf players to take advantage of - with good game they could inject themselves quickly into the orbit of women and have little competition from any men on the outside. But social media fundamentally altered the landscape when it took off big (combined with smartphones) in the early-mid 2010s. These technologies allowed for the creation of new virtual social networks and low-cost, instantaneous means to status signal. Social circles, which had been porous and hollowed out, suddenly became much more rigid and clearly defined. End result? The lone wolf can no longer sneak around in the shadows. He is quickly sussed out as not belonging to the pack.

Superb post and analysis.

As a lone-wolf who did profit through those years, and have utterly rejected SM, i find myself lost in the new landscape. I ploughed on with solo bar game, where i used to clean up on around the early to mid 2010's, started to drop in quality and quantity around 2015 and by 2016 and beyond just found myself more and more lost within it all. I hadnt aged badly, if anything was in better condition, with better work situation, style etc. But the game had massively changed in that short space of time, and IMHO it's been smartphones that have been the main driver.

In 2010, pre tinder etc and before smartphones were any kind of standard, if an attractive girl was bored or newly single and seeking a mate, she'd go to a bar with her friends. There she'd be surrounded mostly by men that dont approach, or when they do, do so badly or only when sufficiently hammered. By just being presentable, engaging and confident, you could clean up. She had scarcity of potential suitors that weren't man-child like pissheads, or super thirsty losers.

Now the same girl just opens her phone any day of the week and gets an endless supply of thirst dolts, that she judges purely on photos and texting, not on confidence, instinct or chemistry.

But there's a ray of light there, as now even less men approach or are sexually confident IRL. So you can still stand out by doing so. The girl might not have the scarcity she once had, but still, there is a way to prove value that others lack.

Fact is society has changed massively in the last decade. Subjectively it's dog-shit and i wish we could all go back to pre smartphone tech across the board in society, Game just one aspect of that. It's hard not to feel nostalgic, life was fundamentally better IMHO before, but what can you do.

I avoid bars for anything beyond dates and hanging with buddies these days. I find meeting girls is something that seems to come organically when you have your shit together, and are keeping some channels open like Tinder (even if its a horror show most part), hobby stuff like nature groups, sports, hiking etc, and just in day to day life interactions.

It feels to me the days of going out and 'making it happen' in terms of game have passed. That sounds negative but i think it's realism. Plus being early forties and going out on the pull in bars, running up to girls in shopping malls etc, i dunno if i can do that shit anymore. Maybe that's a failing in me, i dunno, but you have to evolve along the way, for better or worse. These days it's less hunting, and more gathering. Basically less masculine fundamentally, but then again, that's the age we live in...
04-06-2019 05:19 PM
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Post: #55
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
There is some kind of relationship law that says you know within seconds of first meeting if your going to like a person or in other words first impressions count. IF the first impression didn't count your stuck going through the motions (2nd date)
When I find wishy washy or neutral stance chicks all I think of is "I must be date 1000 to her" (zombie date) or sadly I am not giving off any energy

I assume Delta is fishing for girls in a certain age group. The age group of girls looking to settle down or career girls thinking it would nice to find a guy for the future. My point is there is something Delta is giving off that chicks are not wanting to emotionally invest in him.

I agree totally that the "big cities" breed a certain mindset in women (shallow,suspicious.shields up). Just moving 30 miles to another town or city can be a game changer because the women are in a different environment. Learning a new fishing hole is better than sitting at the old fishing hole the newness gets you out learning exploring and open to meeting people

Further on the age thing where a single guy who has everything starts looking for "the one" (just like girls do) and destroys/dismisses/undermines all who won't be "the one" because his life experiences tell him the girl in front of him is nothing special and she's thinking it also. Similarity (not familiarity) breeds contempt. Whats that joke on "two instagram whores go into a restaurant and expect to talk/look at each other and later forgot what they did"

I travel a lot (meaning appreciated by women in other cultures) I am delighted when I get back to sitting down with "woman in the west as friends or fuck buddys" rarely do I find an interesting quality girl here. I stopped wasting my time figuring out women here years ago and my best decision was to widen my own horizons. Try it.

............LIFE isn't a DRESS REHEARSAL.........
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2019 08:37 PM by Incubus.)
04-06-2019 08:20 PM
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Post: #56
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
Delta,

After reading this thread my question is how do you push the emotional buttons of girls? You seem like the kind of guy who has his shit together, is healthy and smart. But do you show passion of some kind, do you have something that makes you different than the normies in the office, something crazy, brutal humor, views that contradict the norms, a fuck it all attitude, an interest in unusual arts and music, a way of talking that shows a range of emotions, ability to crack jokes that make others and yourself laugh histerically. Stuff like that is what in my experience creates a spark.

Look at Roosh for example - dark and funny sense of humor, totally contradicts what the world expects of him, goes against the established path. I suppose that sparks interest in girls.
04-07-2019 02:13 PM
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AneroidOcean Offline
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Post: #57
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-06-2019 12:42 AM)Delta Wrote:  What I'm at a loss to explain isn't why I don't land 3-4 dates per week, it's why I consistently get such indifferent responses from the women I do pursue and date. Here's a very timely example: Since posting this thread, I asked a girl out for a second date, to which she replied that she'd have to figure out her schedule and see when she's free, a behavior pattern I've encountered many instances of recently. A few days later, in a move uncharacteristically up-front for chicks, she got back and explained this to me as having felt "completely neutral" about how our first date went and not knowing what to make of it. Needless to say, there isn't a second date in the works. I mean that's exactly how I diagnose such situations anyway, but it's still jarring to hear out loud, especially since these "not committing to another date but not flat out rejecting it yet" type responses are such a recurring pattern for me.

What's clear to me is this- I'm not doing anything at all ostensibly "wrong," but I'm still failing to push the attraction buttons. As I explained in the OP, I can confidently say I'm way ahead of the curve in terms of self-improvement/building value. I have no problem holding a conversation with girls that aren't socially retarded; usually they're happy to hang out and chat for as long as I let it go on, whether that's 2, 3, 4 hours or even longer. They tend to be pretty compliant too, my venue bounces are rarely met with resistance. I know to kino/escalate and usually when I have the desire to, I can bring things to at least some light kissing. So it's hard to say what needs to change. Do I need to go on steroids and look like a bodybuilder rather than just a regular sized athletic and toned dude? Do I need to piss away money on status symbols to look like a major baller? Do I need to pretend to have more in common with these girls to try and manufacture the "connection"? Do I need to be hyper-aggressive and try to fuck every girl in the back seat of the car on date 1? Is it really near-impossible to succeed without good first date bang logistics as some have suggested?

You're absolutely doing something wrong. That's okay, but you need to figure out what it is and change it.

Some things that stick out like a sore thumb:

1. You're focused on what you've done as opposed to what she is doing. Is she smacking you on the arm when you crack a funny joke at her expense? Is she blushing and smiling? Is she laser focused on you? Is she noticing other girls checking you out or is she otherwise noticing your interactions with other girls while on the date?

You attempting or even succeeding at getting a kiss does not equate with her being really attracted to you. All the things I mentioned are good indicators, not whether you successfully leaned in and kissed her. She should be leaning into you, giving you those puppy dog eyes. If not, she's probably not all that attracted to you.

2. You're asking for a 2nd date after the 1st date has already ended. Seeding the next date on the 1st date is what you should be doing. She should already want a 2nd date on the 1st date. She should be contacting you more than you contacting her after the first date. She should be ready to go when you are.

No you don't need to try to bang every girl on the first date, but going on such a long date where they were "happy to talk to you for hours" and you got a kiss isn't a recipe for success.

When you're out at a bar or restaurant do you pick up on it when a guy and a girl are on a date and whether it's going well or not?

I get the feeling you just don't really know how hard you have to flip the script with women to have them be interested in going out with you again. You can't have a maybe girl this day in age, you have to get her to be a solid YES girl. She has to be intrigued and excited with you. If you're such a put together interesting guy she should be looking forward to any future time with you.

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04-08-2019 01:40 PM
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Post: #58
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
I was recently reading a blog (book of bonecrckr) which i think hits the nail on the head in regards to dating, far better than any other 'red pill' guide etc.

I've personally grown beyond thinking that success with women is due to any real rational evaluation they make of your value. Instead it's 80% to do with their mindset at a given moment. They're horny/lonely, you're acceptable, you end up sleeping together. Any girl you have slept with, you can normally sleep with again. The guys who exert enough effort to make themselves acceptable and then maximise their availability to ready and willing women; will have the most success. Thats it.. When i've acted based on this, i have had predictable lays.

Endless improvement is a superfluous pursuit if you're not getting the results you want and which will make you happy. A few good friends of mine are trapped in these self improvement loops; gym, good job, good clothes, decent patter. Regularly friends girlfriends would comment on 'why isn't x with a girl?, he's handsome, etc'.

It's because they spend virtually no time in environments around available women and they don't have logistics which facilitate bringing a girl home and sleeping with her quickly. Many also don't have the game to move that quickly with girls and end up passing up a lot of chances this way. Logistics is the difference between a decent value man sleeping with a new girl every week or regularly going on 6 month dry spells.
04-09-2019 09:58 AM
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Incubus Offline
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Post: #59
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
A poster has already written Delta needs new goals if the types of girls he is dating are BLAHHH or lukewarm oatmeal.

Delta has done enough "field research" and has probably blamed himself for his dating results and the girl types dated.

Today is the socialized acceptance of "not your fault" which could apply to Delta who could be "maturity transitioning" from club scene to looking for quality time with girls. A lot of us got tired of boozy 4am pump and dumps and we transitioned.

Is day game hard? it's as hard as each individual thinks it is and Delta doesn't and this must be goal one. Day game is important because "your real" (in most situations) you need to be on and positive be charming funny be a conversationalist AND most important read girls and adapt.

Goal two evaluate expectations.....date just for sex..date for fun..or date for serious relationship(s)....if Delta is getting hurt by dating results then it's probably an expectation issue.

Goal three work to your strengths ....some guys are funny....or interesting....some guys only asset is height and re develop strengths you've grown to lazy to use.

I fully agree with Mr ED
[i]I've personally grown beyond thinking that success with women is due to any real rational evaluation they make of your value. Instead it's 80% to do with their mindset at a given moment. They're horny/lonely, you're acceptable, you end up sleeping together.[/i]

I'll add that todays emotionally desensitized western woman is not the same animal as the original threat of just the "internet" (90's society fear of information overload... getting 200 TV channels were supposed to make dating hard for guys and it didn't) ...but social app overload....or social app junkies has.

Regardless as Mr Ed alludes to women are moody and you win sometimes just by being out there...right time and right place. But look for a date that has a balance in every area of her life. Not just liking cat pictures.

............LIFE isn't a DRESS REHEARSAL.........
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2019 08:12 PM by Incubus.)
04-10-2019 08:10 PM
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StrikeBack
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Post: #60
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
If Delta is after a nice girl for a relationship (because his way of Gaming in the OP hints at that), then he needs to get better at building rapport and being genuine and interesting, not just building external values. If we take his self description literally, then I have seen many guys with nowhere near those values getting into relationship with decent girls, because they know how to build a genuine connection. Too much of what he described in the OP makes him sound like the social robots in The Game by Neil Strauss.

In building rapport with girls, just keep in mind to strike the right balance between genuine caring for her and not taking her concerns too seriously. Take for example the texting issue from earlier. Delta, it's good that you are no longer going to overanalyse and waste time crafting the best, wittiest, blah blah responses to a girl's text. Here's one way you can quickly respond without thinking too much, yet still achieve the above: Pusheen text game. There is a Pusheen emoji for just about anything. Seriously, it's chick crack, they love it, and it automatically implies that you give them playful attention yet don't take them seriously. Or in other words, you make them feel like a little girl in your world.

As much as social media and online dating have affected women socially, I think they have affected men too. Many, even the ones who are Game-aware, seem to have lost the ability to connect with women at more than just a superficial level. I see too many app tricks, PUA buzzwords and Game moves but not enough genuine interest in getting to know a human being. I have always rejected online dating and social media (I'm 36 now) and I don't think it is a coincidence that the women I've dated have always said that I'm the most interesting guy they've ever met. All I do is showing real interest in her, asking the right questions and listening well, while having unique views on many topics. I don't think I'm that charming, but I believe it's incredibly easy to be so for most women these days because the guys in their lives (family, friends, co-workers etc.) are usually boring as growing grass.

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04-10-2019 08:35 PM
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Post: #61
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-10-2019 08:35 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  If Delta is after a nice girl for a relationship (because his way of Gaming in the OP hints at that), then he needs to get better at building rapport and being genuine and interesting, not just building external values. If we take his self description literally, then I have seen many guys with nowhere near those values getting into relationship with decent girls, because they know how to build a genuine connection. Too much of what he described in the OP makes him sound like the social robots in The Game by Neil Strauss.

I'm actually not great at coming up with the sorts of witty innuendos that you'd read in game books, and I do not center my game around them. What I am very good at is getting people talking about what they're passionate about. I know enough about almost any subject to ask informed questions and make well thought out observations, so I have a unique ability to carry on in-depth conversations with people I just met where they do most of the talking on some topic they're really into. All advice I've read on social interaction says that should be your goal, and intuitively that skill should translate very well to first dates, so I can't really understand why it doesn't get me a ton of 2nd and 3rd dates. Seems like the only girls I ever cash in on are the ones who were abnormally enthusiastic to begin with.

Some have mentioned that hours long conversations are no good and I need to try and escalate harder on first dates. So keeping in mind that I have no FDB logistics, what exactly is the playbook? An hour or so of conversation followed by bouncing the venue and then extremely aggressive kino? Everything around here is centered around FDB so I honestly don't know what the alternative mission is for when you and the girl are both miles away from home.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2019 12:34 AM by Delta.)
04-13-2019 12:29 AM
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Post: #62
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(03-24-2019 10:00 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Traditional night game is dead. Girls simply don't go out to bars/clubs with the hope of meeting a random guy these days. They go out to take pictures with their friends so they can compete with other girls for social media likes. Dating apps are dead. They exist as nothing more than validation mechanisms for average and below average-looking women. Yes, there are exceptions to these generalizations - but the point stands. Your ROI for nightgame and dating apps is much, much lower than in the past. And quality is also way down. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Game has shifted heavily towards social circle and Instagram/Snapchat. I group the two together because they are increasingly inseparable. A confident approach, good looks and engaging conversation are no longer enough to pique the interest of most quality girls these days. They want a man who can demonstrate value and pre-selection through his Instagram/Snapchat. It's as if they simply no longer trust themselves to judge a man's value without seeing his social media. An air of mystery used to be a good thing, but the current generation of young women is so addled by social media that they literally can't make decisions without it.

Women are hardwired to seek out high status men. We know this, and shouldn't get butthurt about it. It is what it is - women wants a high status man like men want an attractive woman. And Instagram/Snapchat, intelligently used, are essentially nothing more than personal advertisements of your social status. This is why they're so intoxicating to women. It's the ultimate shortcut/cheat sheet for them when it comes to assessing a man's value. It lays a man's social status bare for her to judge instantly. Could you imagine an app that somehow let a man see every woman he met naked and tell her how many men she's slept with? That's basically the equivalent of Instagram/Snapchat from the male perspective. These apps in particular have massively tilted the playing field toward women and high status men.

Daygame is your next best option. Many women who have soured on dating apps and who have exhausted their current social circle options are open to a smooth daytime approach. There's a serendipitous factor (from their perspective) that plays in your favor that you simply do not get from other avenues. But even here, you will likely be hampered if you cannot quickly demonstrate value through an Instagram/Snapchat.

Basically, if you aren't into the social media game in 2019 you're fighting a tremendous uphill battle, and all of your game interactions with women will essentially be a race against time: you'll have to somehow dig your hooks into her before she walks away because she can't properly determine your actual value. In other words, you have to demonstrate concrete value very quickly after meeting her. If she doesn't see it with her own eyes she's going to assume you've got nothing going on and will quickly start chasing the next high status guy whose value she can accurately judge through social media.

It's truly incredible how much game has changed in the past decade. It's literally a whole different ballgame. In some ways, the game of 2019 is actually a return to normalcy in the sense that women are starting to turn back towards social circle. The only difference is how much of an outsized role technology is playing, and how invasive it has become in the sexual marketplace and in human socialization in general. The sort of "lone wolf" style game that Roosh and many guys on the forum practiced successfully may turn out to simply have been a flash in the pan phenomenon enabled by a confluence of social and technological factors, which resulted in the atomization of society that had hollowed out in-person social interaction and communities by the late 90s and early 2000s. This left a sort of social vacuum for lone wolf players to take advantage of - with good game they could inject themselves quickly into the orbit of women and have little competition from any men on the outside. But social media fundamentally altered the landscape when it took off big (combined with smartphones) in the early-mid 2010s. These technologies allowed for the creation of new virtual social networks and low-cost, instantaneous means to status signal. Social circles, which had been porous and hollowed out, suddenly became much more rigid and clearly defined. End result? The lone wolf can no longer sneak around in the shadows. He is quickly sussed out as not belonging to the pack.

(04-06-2019 05:19 PM)Elmore Wrote:  
(03-24-2019 10:00 PM)scorpion Wrote:  It's truly incredible how much game has changed in the past decade. It's literally a whole different ballgame. In some ways, the game of 2019 is actually a return to normalcy in the sense that women are starting to turn back towards social circle. The only difference is how much of an outsized role technology is playing, and how invasive it has become in the sexual marketplace and in human socialization in general. The sort of "lone wolf" style game that Roosh and many guys on the forum practiced successfully may turn out to simply have been a flash in the pan phenomenon enabled by a confluence of social and technological factors, which resulted in the atomization of society that had hollowed out in-person social interaction and communities by the late 90s and early 2000s. This left a sort of social vacuum for lone wolf players to take advantage of - with good game they could inject themselves quickly into the orbit of women and have little competition from any men on the outside. But social media fundamentally altered the landscape when it took off big (combined with smartphones) in the early-mid 2010s. These technologies allowed for the creation of new virtual social networks and low-cost, instantaneous means to status signal. Social circles, which had been porous and hollowed out, suddenly became much more rigid and clearly defined. End result? The lone wolf can no longer sneak around in the shadows. He is quickly sussed out as not belonging to the pack.

It feels to me the days of going out and 'making it happen' in terms of game have passed. That sounds negative but i think it's realism. Plus being early forties and going out on the pull in bars, running up to girls in shopping malls etc, i dunno if i can do that shit anymore. Maybe that's a failing in me, i dunno, but you have to evolve along the way, for better or worse. These days it's less hunting, and more gathering. Basically less masculine fundamentally, but then again, that's the age we live in...

It sounds like defeatism if you can't approach women during the day because you are in your 40s. Yes, I understand that approaching is a giant pain. Do you what is worse? Not getting laid. I approach because I have a need. I approached one of the best looking women in my gym this week when she had earbuds in because I needed to have sex and having sex with someone with great legs from the squat rack was a top priority.

I consider myself a sigma male. I'm definitely lone wolf. I'm very focused on getting laid. So I'm not one for social circle game and Instagram/Snapchat. I do a combination of day and night game, and I'm more focused on day game because I do not like late nights because I'm so accustomed to getting up early to go to work. Also, my logistics, while decent, are not ideal, as I cannot walk to many bars from my apartment. Therefore, I'm somewhat hamstrung on night game.

Plus, I am over 30. It's not really feasible to do social circle game after 30. If you look at the course of my life since turning 18, I've never had a social circle. It can be argued that I made some errors in terms of social game when I was in undergrad and my first few years after undergrad, but that's done. When you are 30+, most of a potential social circle is partnered off, so there's not a great access advantage.

I can show up to the mall, dressed well and do some approaches. I can do approaches in grocery stores in areas that are known to be singles conducive in my city. I can approach in gyms and fitness classes. I can approach on the street. I do all the stuff.

I do think the onus on all of us guys is higher than ever to demonstrate higher value. Big muscles, conspicuous consumption, etc. It's an arms race today for women, who have more options now than ever. I've seen some solid guys get turned down by women who honestly have no business turning them down because women have an inflated sense of self due to the epidemic levels of male thirst out there.
04-13-2019 10:46 AM
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RDF Offline
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Post: #63
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-13-2019 12:29 AM)Delta Wrote:  What I am very good at is getting people talking about what they're passionate about. I know enough about almost any subject to ask informed questions and make well thought out observations, so I have a unique ability to carry on in-depth conversations with people I just met where they do most of the talking on some topic they're really into. All advice I've read on social interaction says that should be your goal, and intuitively that skill should translate very well to first dates, so I can't really understand why it doesn't get me a ton of 2nd and 3rd dates.

You're on the right path but there's a step you take next. Being a good conversationalist doesn't mean much if you don't find a hook. Something that makes the girl take an interest in you, not just in the conversation. This always depends on the specific interaction but the jist of it is that you tie a passion of hers in with something that you have experienced.

For example, travel. Its pretty easy to get a girl talking about her study abroad trip to Barcelona/Rio/etc. After she gives me her spiel, I will follow up with a story of mine from traveling that will genuinely interest her and pique her EMOTIONS. Note that I'm not talking about something I've heard from somebody else or read on the internet, I'm talking about something that I lived that she hasn't. And I'm not talking about it expecting to impress her, I am just sharing parts of my life in a casual way without expecting a reaction. This rarely doesn't end in at least making out.

(04-13-2019 12:29 AM)Delta Wrote:  Some have mentioned that hours long conversations are no good and I need to try and escalate harder on first dates. So keeping in mind that I have no FDB logistics, what exactly is the playbook? An hour or so of conversation followed by bouncing the venue and then extremely aggressive kino?

This is a problem. I have to ask then, how exactly do you have "no FDB logistics"? Do you live with your parents, or in the exurbs or on a farm 25 miles away from the nearest bar? Both sound strange if you are making 6-figures and are in your 30s (or late 20s). If either of those is the case, I may have to take back the part about not needing to change up your life at all.

The major issue with not having 1st date bang logistics is that it usually means you also don't have 2nd date, 3rd date, or 10th date bang logistics. I get that you're looking for a longer-term thing, but what are you going to do if a girl does grant you more dates? Just keep going to different bars and get a hotel if she wants to bang? It doesn't make sense. Having no logistics doesn't just hurt you for bangs; after a certain age, it makes it far more difficult to maintain any type of romantic relationship.
04-13-2019 11:17 AM
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Delta Offline
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-13-2019 11:17 AM)RDF Wrote:  For example, travel. Its pretty easy to get a girl talking about her study abroad trip to Barcelona/Rio/etc. After she gives me her spiel, I will follow up with a story of mine from traveling that will genuinely interest her and pique her EMOTIONS. Note that I'm not talking about something I've heard from somebody else or read on the internet, I'm talking about something that I lived that she hasn't. And I'm not talking about it expecting to impress her, I am just sharing parts of my life in a casual way without expecting a reaction. This rarely doesn't end in at least making out.

Unless the girl is a social retard who never asks about me, I'm usually able to relay back some fun or interesting stories as you describe. I find it pretty easy to get a makeout or at least some light kissing when I have the desire to. What I struggle with is why, even after dates where it felt like we connected both verbally and physically, the girl usually goes cold at some point and we don't meet up again. It's just bizarre. I don't understand what more I could possibly offer besides elite genetics.

Quote:This is a problem. I have to ask then, how exactly do you have "no FDB logistics"? Do you live with your parents, or in the exurbs or on a farm 25 miles away from the nearest bar? Both sound strange if you are making 6-figures and are in your 30s (or late 20s). If either of those is the case, I may have to take back the part about not needing to change up your life at all.

The major issue with not having 1st date bang logistics is that it usually means you also don't have 2nd date, 3rd date, or 10th date bang logistics. I get that you're looking for a longer-term thing, but what are you going to do if a girl does grant you more dates? Just keep going to different bars and get a hotel if she wants to bang? It doesn't make sense. Having no logistics doesn't just hurt you for bangs; after a certain age, it makes it far more difficult to maintain any type of romantic relationship.

I have my own place but it's not in walking distance of anything and my dates are almost always at some midpoint with a girl who lives at least a half hour away. So I can fuck no problem by just inviting the girl directly to my place, but of course that doesn't go over well for a first date (esp. with a quality girl). I almost never try to get the girl to drive back to my place with me on the first date, seems like such a hail mary. Would you recommend this?
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2019 08:36 PM by Delta.)
04-13-2019 08:31 PM
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Scoundrel Offline
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Post: #65
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-13-2019 08:31 PM)Delta Wrote:  What I struggle with is why, even after dates where it felt like we connected both verbally and physically, the girl usually goes cold at some point and we don't meet up again. It's just bizarre.

When a once-enthusiastic lead suddenly goes cold with no explanation, it's usually because she's become involved with another guy. She ignores/responds minimally to all her other suitors as she focuses her attention on the new relationship.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2019 03:20 PM by Scoundrel.)
04-14-2019 03:08 PM
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Delta Offline
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
^Occasionally a lead suddenly goes cold at some random time days after we last hung out, in which case your explanation is the likely one. But much more often, it's the girl being cold and wishy washy immediately following a first date that had felt like a success to me. This happens to me far more frequently than actually getting a second date. So something is off about my perception.

I'd get into specific examples over PM if anyone is curious.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2019 04:44 PM by Delta.)
04-14-2019 04:43 PM
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Conquistador Offline
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
Don't know if you're familiar with Black Dragon. I've seen a few people here vouch for him, and others sort of dismiss him because he advocates open relationships. Anyway, he has a two date system. He takes a girl to a casual place to grab a drink for one hour. He gets a girl to do most of the talking like you do, he does kino, then he ends the date without a kiss. This is supposed to get the girl wondering about you, and allows her to experience sexual tension. Kissing without having sex with her lets the girl know you like her, and likely kills the mystery for her. Then you set up the second date at your place.

If you did everything right with kino, and possibly a few flirtatious innuendos she should agree. At the end of the date tell her she seems like a cool person, and we should do this again sometime, when she agrees, tell her you'll text her. Tell her you'll cook you guy's up something, and that she should bring a bottle of wine or something. After dinner she should be good to go. If she's somewhat prudish and or has ASD, set up another date (also at your place), assuming there was at least a heavy make out, fingering, or bj, if not ghost her. If she doesn't put out on third date, but still gets somewhat sexual, then it's up to you. She could be a time waster, or she really likes you and doesn't want to give it up to soon. You are only wasting your time and very little money at this point, assuming you keep the meets at your place.

some guys aren't built to players, some aren't built for LTR's, some are built for both. -Katotic

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04-14-2019 05:03 PM
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Off The Reservation Away
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Post: #68
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-14-2019 04:43 PM)Delta Wrote:  ^Occasionally a lead suddenly goes cold at some random time days after we last hung out, in which case your explanation is the likely one. But much more often, it's the girl being cold and wishy washy immediately following a first date that had felt like a success to me. This happens to me far more frequently than actually getting a second date. So something is off about my perception.

I'd get into specific examples over PM if anyone is curious.

Are all "leads" equal for you or do you actually like some girls more than others? You sound like you treat them all formulaic.

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04-14-2019 07:07 PM
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
Quote:Basically, if you aren't into the social media game in 2019 you're fighting a tremendous uphill battle

Thing is even if you are in the social media game, it is STILL an uphill battle! I know many men who are on Instagram. One showed me his bot software and how many local girls it was messaging, and how he had to maintain conversations with them. His photos and follower count were optimized, and he's a good looking guy with game. It still was VERY laborious, and his conversion rate was discouraging.

My Instagram is not perfect, but it's way above average when you consider the follower count and how I get hundreds of likes per photo. It barely makes a difference. Girls will message me back and forth, but for them, there is no urgency to taking it offline. I suspect that they prefer the virtual reality that the phone brings. And even if I do "win" by using Instagram... I'm still forced to use Instagram for hours and hours. And there are so many ways for leads to go wrong: you meet a girl through Instagram but in real life she's uglier, or you meet a girl in real life and message her via Instagram but things stall out, because a dozen other guys in her DMs have the same type of amazing exciting fun profile that you have.

So while Scorpion is right in many respects, having a rock solid Instagram is not the cure. Really that just keeps you in the game with prospects to play with, but you will still get less results than before social media existed. It doesn't help that studies show millennial girls are having less sex than previous generations, and it's not because they are chaste and want to get married young. I truly believe that women are content with the validation they get from their phone. When they are really horny, or feel "butterflies" with a certain man, then they will go for intimacy.

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04-14-2019 08:10 PM
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-14-2019 08:10 PM)Roosh Wrote:  So while Scorpion is right in many respects, having a rock solid Instagram is not the cure. Really that just keeps you in the game with prospects to play with, but you will still get less results than before social media existed. It doesn't help that studies show millennial girls are having less sex than previous generations, and it's not because they are chaste and want to get married young. I truly believe that women are content with the validation they get from their phone. When they are really horny, or feel "butterflies" with a certain man, then they will go for intimacy.

I was talking to some friends that are mid twenties. The one guy that is actively dating is a nerd, looks ok, on the feminine side and white. He said he's having conversations with 15 girls on Tinder which takes too much of his time and he can't do this continuously. At the end he goes in a relationship because he's tired of all that chatting and going out. Keeping 15 threads of different stories in your mind is exhausting.

Next thing he tells me is that he doesn't go to the bars anymore and I don't blame him with so much options. I would see how 20 some and younger people would not go to the bars to meet random strangers. Social circle and online dating could be the future.

From another angle, I had an old school Venture Capitalist tell me about his take on online dating (for what is worth he was older than 60). He believed that this was a genius idea - you have total information on the person you're going to see (given that it is not fake). Why would you go out with a complete stranger that can fake anything and everything about him/her when you can go out with someone you have complete reference about - from Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, LinkedIn, blogs etc. That changes the game. Makes you feel more familiar. Like in a social circle game where someone tells you everything about the other person. And I can see his point.
04-14-2019 09:36 PM
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-14-2019 08:10 PM)Roosh Wrote:  So while Scorpion is right in many respects, having a rock solid Instagram is not the cure. Really that just keeps you in the game with prospects to play with, but you will still get less results than before social media existed. It doesn't help that studies show millennial girls are having less sex than previous generations, and it's not because they are chaste and want to get married young. I truly believe that women are content with the validation they get from their phone. When they are really horny, or feel "butterflies" with a certain man, then they will go for intimacy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not trying to sell Instagram game as a magic bullet. I'm essentially just saying that the game itself has shifted to such a degree that even if your actual game skills and lifestyle have improved, your results in 2019 will decline (versus say, 2012 or even 2015) absent the use of social media. In other words, social media has so drastically shifted the dating landscape that even if you are objectively a much better quality guy than you were a few years ago, you will be getting worse results today than you would have back then if you choose to boycott Instagram/Snapchat/etc...

Women have two basic interpersonal needs - attention and consensus. Social media provides both in spades. Attention used to come primarily from her boyfriend or husband and validated her as a sexual being. Consensus used to come from her close circle of friends and family and provided her the social structure she needed to inform her view of the world and her place in it. Now, through social media, instead of receiving her attention from a single man she can crowdsource it from dozens or hundreds of men. And instead of building consensus through her network of close friends and family, she follows celebrities and social media thots who give her a warped view of what her life should be like. The result is that the modern young women lives in a bubble of unreality created by social media. It is not an exaggeration to say that many women find social media more pleasurable than sex, and I have zero doubt that the average 20 year old woman would sooner give up sex for a month than forego her phone/social media for the same amount of time.

Social media is truly a monster. And I really have no idea what to do about it. You're basically forced to play that game just to keep up, or voluntarily boycott it and accept objectively worse results than you had before. The vast, overwhelming majority of attractive young women use these platforms extensively and to such a degree that they literally cannot understand anyone who does not. They look at a man without social media the same way we look at those African tribeswomen who stretch their lips out. The reaction is the same: utter confusion. "Wait, what? Why? How do you live like that?" The concept is so alien to them that they can't even relate to you. It's like if you aren't on social media they don't even consider you as being fully alive, because for them their entire lives revolve around it.

Is there any room for the lone wolf player in the year 2019? Perhaps there's still a niche there. But the lone wolf these days is like an endangered animal whose habitat is rapidly shrinking, being encroached on more and more each passing day by the unceasing expansion of the cities. Soon there will be no territory left for him at all. The lone wolf style/cold approach has always been something of a numbers game, but the odds have never been worse in our lifetimes. The ROI has never been lower. The entire premise of this style of game was built on the idea that getting lucky didn't actually require luck. You could turn the odds significantly in your favor through skill and self-improvement. But we're rapidly approaching the point where the returns on developing game skill and self-improvement have diminished so greatly that getting lucky is once again mostly a product of luck: you're simply hoping to come across that rare, attractive girl who isn't a phone/social media zombie and who is open to connecting with a man the old fashioned way.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
04-14-2019 09:38 PM
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moonlight_sonata Offline
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Post: #72
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-14-2019 09:38 PM)scorpion Wrote:  You could turn the odds significantly in your favor through skill and self-improvement. But we're rapidly approaching the point where the returns on developing game skill and self-improvement have diminished so greatly that getting lucky is once again mostly a product of luck: you're simply hoping to come across that rare, attractive girl who isn't a phone/social media zombie and who is open to connecting with a man the old fashioned way.

So lets put this in perspective:
1. Invest in a good social circle that provides you with both leads and social proof
2. Have a good job that pays well but doesn't kill you in the mean time
3. Build a great lifestyle traveling, being a leader of men, being surrounded by hot girls, have local fame and status and have cool hobbies
4. Keep a tight LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Bumble etc. profiles
5. If that doesn't satisfy your sexual needs go do day/night game and approach 100 girls a month

This is my first draft for the 2019 successful dating blue-print.
04-14-2019 09:50 PM
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Post: #73
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-14-2019 09:50 PM)moonlight_sonata Wrote:  
(04-14-2019 09:38 PM)scorpion Wrote:  You could turn the odds significantly in your favor through skill and self-improvement. But we're rapidly approaching the point where the returns on developing game skill and self-improvement have diminished so greatly that getting lucky is once again mostly a product of luck: you're simply hoping to come across that rare, attractive girl who isn't a phone/social media zombie and who is open to connecting with a man the old fashioned way.

So lets put this in perspective:
1. Invest in a good social circle that provides you with both leads and social proof
2. Have a good job that pays well but doesn't kill you in the mean time
3. Build a great lifestyle traveling, being a leader of men, being surrounded by hot girls, have local fame and status and have cool hobbies
4. Keep a tight LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Bumble etc. profiles
5. If that doesn't satisfy your sexual needs go do day/night game and approach 100 girls a month

This is my first draft for the 2019 successful dating blue-print.

Not trying to discourage any of us here, but:


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(This post was last modified: 04-15-2019 01:09 AM by Stiffmeister.)
04-15-2019 12:46 AM
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PapayaTapper Away
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Post: #74
RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
(04-13-2019 08:31 PM)Delta Wrote:  
(04-13-2019 11:17 AM)RDF Wrote:  For example, travel. Its pretty easy to get a girl talking about her study abroad trip to Barcelona/Rio/etc. After she gives me her spiel, I will follow up with a story of mine from traveling that will genuinely interest her and pique her EMOTIONS. Note that I'm not talking about something I've heard from somebody else or read on the internet, I'm talking about something that I lived that she hasn't. And I'm not talking about it expecting to impress her, I am just sharing parts of my life in a casual way without expecting a reaction. This rarely doesn't end in at least making out.

Unless the girl is a social retard who never asks about me, I'm usually able to relay back some fun or interesting stories as you describe. I find it pretty easy to get a makeout or at least some light kissing when I have the desire to. What I struggle with is why, even after dates where it felt like we connected both verbally and physically, the girl usually goes cold at some point and we don't meet up again. It's just bizarre. I don't understand what more I could possibly offer besides elite genetics.

Quote:This is a problem. I have to ask then, how exactly do you have "no FDB logistics"? Do you live with your parents, or in the exurbs or on a farm 25 miles away from the nearest bar? Both sound strange if you are making 6-figures and are in your 30s (or late 20s). If either of those is the case, I may have to take back the part about not needing to change up your life at all.

The major issue with not having 1st date bang logistics is that it usually means you also don't have 2nd date, 3rd date, or 10th date bang logistics. I get that you're looking for a longer-term thing, but what are you going to do if a girl does grant you more dates? Just keep going to different bars and get a hotel if she wants to bang? It doesn't make sense. Having no logistics doesn't just hurt you for bangs; after a certain age, it makes it far more difficult to maintain any type of romantic relationship.

I have my own place but it's not in walking distance of anything and my dates are almost always at some midpoint with a girl who lives at least a half hour away. So I can fuck no problem by just inviting the girl directly to my place, but of course that doesn't go over well for a first date (esp. with a quality girl). I almost never try to get the girl to drive back to my place with me on the first date, seems like such a hail mary. Would you recommend this?

(04-14-2019 04:43 PM)Delta Wrote:  ^Occasionally a lead suddenly goes cold at some random time days after we last hung out, in which case your explanation is the likely one. But much more often, it's the girl being cold and wishy washy immediately following a first date that had felt like a success to me. This happens to me far more frequently than actually getting a second date. So something is off about my perception.

I'd get into specific examples over PM if anyone is curious.

You need to get your logistics in order and just focus on closing the deal on date 1 as often as possible.

Youre right....getting a girl to drive 30 min to your place during a first date is a big barrier. I think this is your bug

Whereas a 2 min walk under the right conditions "Hey want to check out (insert topic you were discussing earlier) ? Its just a block away."

Closing 101. If the dates going well and the tensions built but you hold off on kissing her she'll think youre just trying to get her in private to make out.

Logistics cant be over emphasized

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04-15-2019 03:41 AM
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Conquistador Offline
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RE: The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that Delta wants a relationship, not first date bangs. Not completely mutually exclusive, but pretty close. He will probably look down on her for giving it up right away, and she will probably feel ashamed for not being 'relationship material.'

some guys aren't built to players, some aren't built for LTR's, some are built for both. -Katotic

Every problem men have with women comes down to women not needing men. This explains why women can't love men like we love them. Disco_Volante explains it better than I can.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure"
04-15-2019 02:34 PM
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