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The God pill
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Vladimir Poontang Offline
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Post: #801
RE: The God pill
Some thoughts about God.

God is complete in Himself. He doesn't need anything, He's not dependent on anything, subject to anything, or limited by anything. He's not compelled by anything or caused by anything.

He has unlimited power, potency, ability, potential to do anything, all things, all, omni. Omnipotent.

God created us to be love objects. We're like pets. The whole point of us is to be loved because where there's potential there's a manifestation, and the purpose of creating us is to manifest love.

Because He's totally fulfilled and complete in Himself, He doesn't need us for anything. He doesn't need to be glorified. Anything we do or don't do affects us, not Him. We can't add to Him or diminish Him in any way. We can't make Him happier or sadder. We can't hurt His feeling or make Him cry (although sometimes I wonder if we can make Him laugh, and I often try). We can't affect Him in any way at all. If we glorify Him it benefits us, not Him, and when he gives good things, it benefits only us.

He deserves glory from us, but He's already got all the glory he needs from Himself, and so really we're not giving it to Him, all we can do is acknowledge that it's already there.

God doesn't need anything. He's not a taker, He's a giver. But the giving can only be complete if you can receive. Otherwise, His giving will bounce right off you, presumably back to Himself. We either benefit ourselves by putting our egos aside and making space to receive, or we don't. The most high can't give you anything as long as you're trying to convince yourself that you will be like the most high. If you do that, He'll just take His business elsewhere until you get out of your own way and know your place as a love object.

I also think that God not only has His attributes, but He also is his attributes. And I think that everything the He is, does, and has, are one and the same. What a strange and fascinating God.

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

http://inspiredentrepreneur.weebly.com/
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2019 07:38 PM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-12-2019 06:56 PM
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Rigsby Offline
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Post: #802
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 06:56 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  Some thoughts about God.

God is complete in Himself. He doesn't need anything, He's not dependent on anything, subject to anything, or limited by anything. He's not compelled by anything or caused by anything.

He has unlimited power, potency, ability, potential to do anything, all things, all, omni. Omnipotent.

God created us to be love objects. We're like pets. The whole point of us is to be loved because where there's potential there's a manifestation, and the purpose of creating us is to manifest love.

Because He's totally fulfilled and complete in Himself, He doesn't need us for anything. He doesn't need to be glorified. Anything we do or don't do affects us, not Him. We can't add to Him or diminish Him in any way. We can't make Him happier or sadder. We can't hurt His feeling or make Him cry (although sometimes I wonder if we can make Him laugh, and I often try). We can't affect Him in any way at all. If we glorify Him it benefits us, not Him, and when he gives good things, it benefits only us.

He deserves glory from us, but He's already got all the glory he needs from Himself, and so really we're not giving it to Him, all we can do is acknowledge that it's already there.

God doesn't need anything. He's not a taker, He's a giver. But the giving can only be complete if you can receive. Otherwise, His giving will bounce right off you, presumably back to Himself. We either benefit ourselves by putting our egos aside and making space to receive, or we don't. The most high can't give you anything as long as you're trying to convince yourself that you will be like the most high. If you do that, He'll just take His business elsewhere until you get out of your own way and know your place as a love object.

I also think that God not only has His attributes, but He also is his attributes. And I think that everything the He is, does, and has, are one and the same. What a strange and fascinating God.

Hi Vladimir Poontang.

These last weeks must have been very difficult for you after your sister dying.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-72944.html

You were obviously very distressed at the event. I take no offense at you not taking me up on my offer for you to phone me, when you asked the men of this forum for some help. I get it. We are just strangers on the internet.

Anyway, I hope all is well with you.

And if you ever do need a different perspective, I'm only a PM away. I'll pick up the call so you won't have to incur the cost. I have an international phone package, so it would be much cheaper for me.

All the best to you.
06-12-2019 07:51 PM
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Vladimir Poontang
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Post: #803
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 06:50 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  I watched the interview for Father Josiah Trenham and didn't hear anything new. He takes most of his viewpoints on "faith alone" from a few verses in James. People have gone over this verse over and over but here is a good explanation of it.

Father T doesn't make any new arguments but he does love Jordan Peterson and praises his "intelligence and the importance of his work" about him for 20 minutes in this interview.




(06-12-2019 06:50 PM)Roosh Wrote:  You're starting to cross the line with your defensiveness of Protestant doctrine. It has now spread to two threads. Feel free to start a "Protestants only" thread if you don't want to see any critiques of your beliefs. Religious debating is a gentlemanly skill that should come from a place of love instead of anger.

For one, I am not angry at all. Please tell me what line I crossed. Did I attack any forum member or break a rule?

Criticizing an Orthodox Priest's arguments on the book of James is not an attack on him personally. And as far as I'm aware it's not against the rules to attack public figures here. (which I did not do)

Pointing out Father Josiah Trenham's adoration for Jordan Peterson is not an attack. It's an observation with legitimate concern. His first two arguments in the interview are very silly in my opinion but I didn't even mention the 2nd one as to not be seen as overly critical of him. I said I didn't hear anything new from him and that he loves JP (Both are true)

(He says belief in God is not enough because the Devil also believes in God too, confusing "belief" with "faith". I didn't mention it because I knew I'd be accused of "attacking" for the second time.)

I have read all your posts, videos, and have responded to every critique you've posted so I don't see how you can think I can't handle criticism. I think you just don't like what I said because you know someone praising JP a red flag and you like the guy because he supports your beliefs.

Meanwhile this goes on just a few posts above me.

Quote:How is it extraordinary? They are heretics. They deny tradition. By denying tradition, you deny the Bible - yet the affirm the Bible. They claim that 2+2=5. I say that they are wrong. And I am a radical?

Quote:The document which opened the door to heresy - including paedo priests. It wasn't a false document, merely one which gave the wrong impressions - and now we have legal murder of depressed teenagers. Tikun Olam. You quote it with no knowledge of the context - merely a convenient turn of phrase which seems to support your position. I suggest 1500 years of theology before commenting.

Quote:I have no animus against them. I merely wish that they would translate their proclamations of Christ into the real thing - or cease their idiotic intoning of Gods they don't believe in.

There are already enough demons in Hell. I genuinely wish the best for my misguided brethren. But I will not pretend that their house isn't built upon sand.

None of what I said here is anywhere near this. Is what he said considered gentlemanly just because he's attacking Protestants personally and not your camp? He can call people "heretics" and "demons" but I point out an obvious red flag of a public figure (adoring JP) and I'm "angry" and "attacking"? The only thing that has made me angry is you singling me out for disagreeing with the traditions of Orthodoxy while other Orthodox members blatantly call other Christians "heretics".

I have defended and supported you from all your attackers over the years. Why does this guys get say whatever he wants with impunity? I don't even dare to respond to his nonsense because I already know who's side you'll be on. I just have to sit here and take it.

I'm not going to start a protestants only thread where I can listen to a bunch of people agree with me. I want to hear arguments and critiques of my beliefs. If I start a thread that asks "Are they Biblical?" expect me to use the Bible as a yardstick.

If this thread were called the "Orthodox Pill" I'd stay out of it, but it's not. I thought I was welcome here. I didn't attack any form member or use strong attacking language like many have here. None of what I said was directed at any member either.

Since the new rule says no "sinful acts" does that include speaking against the church? Is that why I'm being scolded? A lot of this depends on what you (the leader and owner of the forum) personally believe is sinful, Roosh. You have a problem here.

I think the Orthodox Church worships idols and some of their traditions contradict the Bible directly making them sinful. Will I be pushed out for saying that?

I don't know why you are singling me out but ok, I'll leave if you're going to persecute me for my beliefs. I'm not going to stop saying what I believe if it doesn't break the rules so do what you have to do.

Thanks Brother!
06-12-2019 08:54 PM
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Maximum Offline
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Post: #804
RE: The God pill
It's sad to see members of different denominations arguing. Believers should be tolerant of each other and not argue about small differences. We are supposed to be red pill here, we are better than the buffons at catholic/orhtodox/protestant churches that would rather side with a leftist than with a brother from another denomination.

We need to forget about the small differences and stick together if we want to survive in this cultural war. Different denominations arguing is the wetdream of the globohomo. Let's be better than that. After all, we all believe in the same God.
06-12-2019 09:58 PM
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MusicForThePiano Offline
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Post: #805
RE: The God pill
I can partially answer the pope question, but you have to understand the context of the entire catholic history. It is a similar position to a monarch, or a caliphate leader, or a khagan, as it lords over all of its subjects and is considered the highest role of a human on earth as one below God. Jesus would not approve of this, if you study his teachings intently. If you've read Alighieri's Inferno you would see that not even pope's are spared from torment in hell by his vision, as many of them were guilty of simony, or abuse of power within the church, or paying for a position of influence in the papacy. Oftentimes, some popes would put their nephews, cousins etc as bishops and cardinals. Many of the Pope's were good figures though, and kept the faith strong especially in trying times when Europe was poised to be invaded by barbarian hordes.

Now the current "pope" licks the infected feet of the invading hordes like a hungry dog starved to the brink. You can see why its hard for former catholics or fallen catholics to take their faith seriously, its one of the most pozzed faiths right now, almost entirely compromised. Putting aside the fact that much of the faith was based on Roman pagan religion with just adding the Christ savior to it, I still find it to be difficult to follow and the idea of praying to saints stands in contradiction to praying to Jesus and the Father only. I find reverence and admiration to be fine respects for those men and women, but prayer is not something that you should direct towards a human, no matter how priestly they were in life. The popes have suffered many divisions, even one time during the 14th century called the great papal schism, where there were two popes one in France and the other in Rome. However, not even that is anywhere near divisive as the current anti-Christian pope, too busy getting his foot fetish on to safeguard his followers.

There is a fine line in standing with Christ where you can only allow your family, your people, your blood, your nation, to suffer indignation so much that you have to push back. God desired human biodiversity that is why you have all the different races in their respective parts of earth. Perhaps one day if a warrior Pope emerges I could stand beside him against the fire, but our list of allies grows thin, and more betrayals are to come.
06-12-2019 10:03 PM
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wwtl Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 09:58 PM)Maximum Wrote:  It's sad to see members of different denominations arguing. Believers should be tolerant of each other and not argue about small differences. We are supposed to be red pill here, we are better than the buffons at catholic/orhtodox/protestant churches that would rather side with a leftist than with a brother from another denomination.

We need to forget about the small differences and stick together if we want to survive in this cultural war. Different denominations arguing is the wetdream of the globohomo. Let's be better than that. After all, we all believe in the same God.

In my place Ecumenism is strong and there is a lot of collaboration between denominations. In the past Baptists (a minor denomination where I live) were viewed as a "sect", at times even persecuted - not anymore. With parishes shrinking each year, Christians understood that celebrating animosities doesn't help the cause, especially not with Muslim communities growing every day.
06-12-2019 10:32 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 12:29 AM)Tex Wrote:  The God Pill is MUCH more ostracizing than anything else we've talked about on this forum.

You "lucked out" that you were attacked by only a girlfriend. For many, the attack will come from family:

Quote:Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Mat 10:34-)

These are one of those 'hard sayings' of Christ that many do not want to hear. They really don't. They do not understand that there are some deep spiritual issues that transpire when a man is (actually and truly) born into the Kingdom of God and that just about every relationship a true child of God has is going to change radically once they really begin to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Your greatest enemy could very well be members of your own family who hate Christianity and Christians. The devil will often use family members to attack you in ways many of you never thought possible. In Islamic nations, it could mean that your parents will disown you or even beat and kill you for your faith in Christ. It could mean that your alcoholic parent disowns you here in the west or your Wiccan mother puts you out of the house for your faith. It could mean that family members and friends start to badger and humiliate you in public for your faith in Christ. Brothers, you have a new father and your brothers and sisters are those of the household of faith now (Mat_12:50; Mar_3:35). While we cannot wholly disown our natural family (nor should we) often its just better to socially and physically disengage from them when they attack your faith, mock your beliefs - or having once believed in Christ, turn away from the faith and try and drag you down "Apostate Street' with them.

Brothers, I now many of you are having a very hard time with family members. Kids who won't act right, or parents or siblings who have turned against you for your faith in Christ. Grown kids returning home who don't and won't live right. Be thankful you are not in Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia, where the law gives those who kill Christians a lot of leeway to get away with it. Keep in mind that when Islamic nations say apostasy we Christians call it 'conversion'. In many places conversion is punishable by death. In America, if a person converts from what I like to call 'Secular Hedonism' there is no official punishment but as our Lord makes clear your life and relationships are going to be turned upside down for as long as you faithfully serve God. Stop trying to kid yourself about it. Just make up your mind who your first love is.

https://markswatson.com/Christ,%20Family...ution.html

Roosh
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06-12-2019 10:58 PM
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Roosh Offline
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Post: #808
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 09:58 PM)Maximum Wrote:  It's sad to see members of different denominations arguing. Believers should be tolerant of each other and not argue about small differences. We are supposed to be red pill here, we are better than the buffons at catholic/orhtodox/protestant churches that would rather side with a leftist than with a brother from another denomination.

We need to forget about the small differences and stick together if we want to survive in this cultural war. Different denominations arguing is the wetdream of the globohomo. Let's be better than that. After all, we all believe in the same God.

Yes this has the potential to be explosive, but I'm examing the nature of these debates to formulate guidelines in the future. At the end of the day, someone has to be emotionally "okay" with their doctrines getting trashed, and only respond intellectually. Otherwise there is no way different denominations can peacefully exist in the same threads.

Roosh
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06-12-2019 11:02 PM
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wwtl Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 12:29 AM)Tex Wrote:  The God Pill is MUCH more ostracizing than anything else we've talked about on this forum.

It's funny when secular people look down on church as some kind of feel-good self-help club, but freak out completely, when you actually make the step.
06-12-2019 11:05 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:05 PM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-12-2019 12:29 AM)Tex Wrote:  The God Pill is MUCH more ostracizing than anything else we've talked about on this forum.

It's funny when secular people look down on church as some kind of feel-good self-help club, but freak out completely, when you actually make the step.

Or make a sacrifice for your beliefs that limits their wordly pleasure or perceptions, like you saw here when I announced the rules change.

Roosh
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06-12-2019 11:07 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 09:58 PM)Maximum Wrote:  It's sad to see members of different denominations arguing. Believers should be tolerant of each other and not argue about small differences. We are supposed to be red pill here, we are better than the buffons at catholic/orhtodox/protestant churches that would rather side with a leftist than with a brother from another denomination.

We need to forget about the small differences and stick together if we want to survive in this cultural war. Different denominations arguing is the wetdream of the globohomo. Let's be better than that. After all, we all believe in the same God.

I concur. If brothers in Christ divide themselves, it leads to a vacuum ripe for humanists, leftists, and Muslims to destroy our culture. Then again, if you watch the Father Trenham video posted by Roosh (which I watched and which I found very interesting), you will see that these arguments are not necessarily "about small differences."

If I understood Father Trenham correctly, the Orthodox do not believe that they are saved (if they are saved at all) until the end of their lives -- after God weighs their life's works. So, from that standpoint, I can understand why Orthodox believers (and more traditionalist Catholics who reject the Vatican's "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by Faith") would believe that Protestants are leading people to hell. In fact, having just watched Father Trenham's video, I am even more surprised that Roosh did not simply shut down this forum (because of past content).

The problem is that certain Catholic members of this forum, rather than explaining their theology from a position of love and teaching, have instead resorted to calling Protestants "demons" and castigating them for their sincerely-held beliefs. I learned much more from simply watching the Father Trenham video (which Roosh posted without much comment) than from all the vile comments from certain Catholic members, posted without any love or compassion for fellow believers.

If this forum helps, in a small way, to bring just a few men to Christ, it will do more good than everything else that the forum has ever accomplished (which may explain why Roosh kept the forum open). My single biggest fear is that continued strident and uncharitable discussion in this thread may push new believers away from Christ and the church, rather than acting to gather them into the fold in a welcoming and cordial environment.

Jesus commanded Christians to "love thy neighbor as thyself." Is that too much to ask of fellow believers on this forum?
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2019 11:19 PM by Tail Gunner.)
06-12-2019 11:09 PM
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RE: The God pill
Quote:If I understood Father Trenham correctly, the Orthodox do not believe that they are saved (if they are saved at all) until the end of their lives -- after God weighs their life's works. So, from that standpoint, I can understand why Orthodox believers (and more traditionalist Catholics who reject the Vatican's "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by Faith") would believe that Protestants are leading people to hell.

Correct, the point of this life is to embark on a spiritual path where you become closer to God (and sin less) with each passing day (the process of theosis). When you arrive at the judgment seat of Christ, you will be judged for every thought, word, and deed of your life.

For me, the Protestant method of salvation can seem algorithmic depending on the denomination (do this, then you're guaranteed that), but my main concern is that if someone thinks they are saved no matter what from that point forth, that could lead to weaker faith and backsliding. If you're saved, why pray daily? Why fast? Why worry about the little sins? Why even think of God in your daily life? Though I know that the faith of two Protestants can be very different, so I don't make assumptions about individual Protestants. Understand that I'm deeply pained when I drive around the DC area and see gay pride flags draped over Protestant churches, and I know most Protestant churches are not like that, but it causes me to believe that Orthodoxy is more sturdy in resisting secularism, like Father Trenham pointed out.

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06-12-2019 11:17 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 10:58 PM)Roosh Wrote:  You "lucked out" that you were attacked by only a girlfriend. For many, the attack will come from family:

I've yet the task ahead of initiating my (patch-worked) relatives to my Christian conversion. I have no idea who is going to react how.

Especially for my parents this might look like a complete and final failure of their whole (secular) upbringing. They were already very disappointed with my MGHOW lifestyle and put lots of pressure on me recently to change (into a functioning member of hedonistic society), which also caused me to finalize the (baptism) deal.

Boy, did I change... Big Grin
06-12-2019 11:21 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:21 PM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-12-2019 10:58 PM)Roosh Wrote:  You "lucked out" that you were attacked by only a girlfriend. For many, the attack will come from family:

I've yet the task ahead of initiating my (patch-worked) relatives to my Christian conversion. I have no idea who is going to react how.

Especially for my parents this might look like a complete and final failure of their whole (secular) upbringing. They were already very disappointed with my MGHOW lifestyle and put lots of pressure on me recently to change (into a functioning member of hedonistic society), which also caused me to finalize the (baptism) deal.

Boy, did I change... Big Grin

Don't expect good results. I've gotten through to parents but sibling is clueless, even gave them all Bibles similar to the one that I have. A few cousins understand, but no luck with aunts and uncles. Grandparents, who naturally should be more receptive to this, must forget about God in their senility because I feel like I'm the only one in my family who talks about God. It is isolating when you experience this, but comforting to know where you stand.

I get more joy creating new things than I ever did feeling anything. Perhaps because that is one of our purposes, to create. Nihilists tout that people are remembered more for what they destroy than what they create, but that's only relevant now because of the culture, which does not celebrate the great architects, engineers, inventors, and innovators the way it celebrates invalids.

One thing I don't know if any of you have experienced this is a family member wanting to be cremated and I straight up said no. Would any of you bury a relative against their wishes of being cremated upon death?
06-12-2019 11:31 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:31 PM)MusicForThePiano Wrote:  Don't expect good results.

I know. Parents essentially started me on the final leg of my journey to God Pill half a decade ago, when relations shattered and I learned the virtue of forgiveness (before actually knowing our Lord), instead of holding a grudge.
06-12-2019 11:48 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 04:23 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  
(06-12-2019 12:49 PM)Wutang Wrote:  Regarding the "church nerd" posts and the lack of masculine leadership in church positions, Art of Manliness did a series on how Christianity in the West, particularly Protestantism was feminized. Yes I realize there's people on here who would consider the guy behind the website to be a church nerd but as someone who has read through the series and even bought the book that the articles were turned into, I think it brings up a lot of good points to digest on.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/...roduction/

Quote:Why does a religion started by a carpenter and his twelve male comrades attract more women than men? Christian churches are led predominately by men (95% of Protestant senior pastors and 100% of Catholic clergy are male) and are criticized by feminists as bastions of male patriarchy, power, and privilege; so why is the laity paradoxically composed largely of women?

Was there ever a time when the gender ratio of Christianity was equal? And if so, why did a disparity between male and female adherents develop?

Among men who are committed Christians, why do they seem to be more effeminate, on average, than the male population as a whole? As Murrow puts it, what is it about “Christianity, especially Western Christianity, that drives a wedge between the church and men who want to be masculine”?

These are fascinating questions, certainly for Christians who have noticed this phenomenon themselves and for pastors of churches who are concerned about the health of their congregations (as we’ll see, there’s a strong connection between the number of men in a church’s pews and its vitality).

Whats the name of the book? I have seen that phenomenon but don't understand it. My Grandmother's church, in its last dying days is just a handful of old women, the same thing with the church that I go to. Our congregation uses a small historic church, that is shared with the original Presbyterian congregation. They had shrunk down to a membership of officially 6 old ladies and we moved in because we needed more space and as a way to keep the building in repair and use.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/...is-summer/
06-12-2019 11:49 PM
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Post: #817
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:21 PM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-12-2019 10:58 PM)Roosh Wrote:  You "lucked out" that you were attacked by only a girlfriend. For many, the attack will come from family:

I've yet the task ahead of initiating my (patch-worked) relatives to my Christian conversion. I have no idea who is going to react how.

Especially for my parents this might look like a complete and final failure of their whole (secular) upbringing. They were already very disappointed with my MGHOW lifestyle and put lots of pressure on me recently to change (into a functioning member of hedonistic society), which also caused me to finalize the (baptism) deal.

Growing up in a house of non-practicing Catholics, I did not tell anyone in my family for several years that I became a born-again Christian. I thought that it might lead to strife. I eventually discovered that no one really cared (from the standpoint of being angry). This actually really concerned me -- and spurred me to have serious conversations with my family members about their eternal salvation. When several of those family members eventually died, I was able to tell the rest of the family that they died having accepted Christ.

From my own experience, you should find the fortitude to have these types of discussions with your family members, perhaps waiting for an appropriate time when they are more open to such a conversation. You might just be surprised where it leads. The Lord opens doors when you least expect it. Moreover, aside from the Great Commission, you have a duty to warn others:

Quote:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:16-22 KJV.
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2019 11:51 PM by Tail Gunner.)
06-12-2019 11:50 PM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #818
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:50 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Growing up in a house of non-practicing Catholics, I did not tell anyone in my family for several years that I became a born-again Christian. I thought that it might lead to strife. I eventually discovered that no one really cared (from the standpoint of being angry). This actually really concerned me -- and spurred me to have serious conversations with my family members about their eternal salvation. When several of those family members eventually died, I was able to tell the rest of the family that they died having accepted Christ.

From my own experience, you should find the fortitude to have these types of discussions with your family members, perhaps waiting for an appropriate time when they are more open to such a conversation. You might just be surprised where it leads. The Lord opens doors when you least expect it. Moreover, aside from the Great Commission, you have a duty to warn others

Non-practicing Catholics are more harmless than the outright communist society I grew up in. And yes, these "values" were deeply ingrained and are still in effect.

The stage isn't even set for having "discussions" about soul-winning, just breaking the news will disrupt more than enough. I'm still not completely independent from that family, so it might have economical consequences as well.

Though I will break the news at some point. I won't deny Christ.
06-13-2019 12:01 AM
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Post: #819
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:17 PM)Roosh Wrote:  For me, the Protestant method of salvation can seem algorithmic depending on the denomination (do this, then you're guaranteed that), but my main concern is that if someone thinks they are saved no matter what from that point forth, that could lead to weaker faith and backsliding. If you're saved, why pray daily? Why fast? Why worry about the little sins? Why even think of God in your daily life?

The same question could be flipped back to you. What's stopping you from back sliding?

You posted this humorous meme in another thread:
[Image: A5FWEXL.png]

But it hits it gently on the head. You're being tempted by the smell of meat. What if you eat it? Is that not backsliding in your faith? What will your priest think of this?

But let's go a step further, you've already said here that you keep the Armenian Orthodox fasting rules:
(06-08-2019 05:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  The fasting rules for Armenian are way simpler than EO, and also less strict (you're allowed oil, though not fish). That said, you're still essentially vegan for 44% of the year. If you're curious about fasting, you can try this calendar out. If you are EO, you can always transition to the stricter form.

Quote:Fasting Rules:
-No meat, fats, dairy, eggs, alcohol
-Allowed: honey, vegetable & olive oil

That's the literal translation, but there are others within Orthodoxy who take it to mean no cooking oils at all. What's a little soybean oil instead of olive oil? I mean the rules did say no olive oil so it must be ok?

(06-08-2019 05:11 PM)Roosh Wrote:  From what I've read about fasting, there is no "wrong" way to do it.

You so sure about that? Will you be attending church while on your US road trip? What happens when you go into another Orthodox Church that feels differently about avoiding all oils during a fast? What will their priest have to say about this if you admit it to him?

If you're willing to bend the rules on the oil rule when there are clearly those within Orthodoxy who go above and beyond to have no oil why not bend the rules elsewhere?

How will other Eastern churches feel about these deviations? Have you not deviated from what they observe as Christlike? Did Christ not abstain from everything but water during his fast? I betcha the devil tempted him with some pommegranite juice . It is technically water. There may be some food in it but only a little. Can't be that bad right?

Or as you say, theu don't care about the fasting rules. I'm willing to bet there's someone out there who does.

I say this all of course in jest as the devil's advocate, but it offers a good point. No Christian is immune to backsliding in their faith even in the face of immense tradition and history.

Shalom Alechem!
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 01:02 AM by The Beast1.)
06-13-2019 12:03 AM
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Post: #820
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 12:03 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  
(06-12-2019 11:17 PM)Roosh Wrote:  For me, the Protestant method of salvation can seem algorithmic depending on the denomination (do this, then you're guaranteed that), but my main concern is that if someone thinks they are saved no matter what from that point forth, that could lead to weaker faith and backsliding. If you're saved, why pray daily? Why fast? Why worry about the little sins? Why even think of God in your daily life?

The same question could be flipped back to you. What's stopping you from back sliding.

The other issue is whether God wants you to do good works and to become more holy out of love for Him or, as the Orthodox teach, out of fear of Him, or a fear of Hell, or to receive an eternal reward.

Protestants teach that good works -- though performed only with the help of God's grace -- definitely accompany salvation, and that those who are saved can, through their own efforts, contribute to the process of Christian holiness (understood as thoughts, words, and deeds being motivated solely and purely by the love of God). Leading a life that is not marked by good works and that is marked by evil or immoral behavior can lead to the loss of one's salvation; thus the believer's behavior has a pivotal role in the ongoing experience of salvation, and thus the warnings against "backsliding."

Thus, all Protestant churches have high expectations for moral behavior. Luther did not think works could save, but he did think that a good tree bears good fruit. The saved, freed from anxiety about their own salvation, can devote their attention to helping their fellow humans. They do good because the same work of the Holy Spirit that brought them to believe that their sins had been forgiven continues to work in them to do God's will. They do so because service to fellow humans glorifies God. And they do so because as they grow in the life of faith they become more Christ-like and so take on aspects of Jesus, such as seeing the image of God in everyone, even their enemies. While moral works are not necessary to retain salvation, such works will in fact characterize those who are saved.

So, Protestants perform good works and become more holy through their love for God, not because they fear God, fear Hell, or expect an eternal reward.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 12:36 AM by Tail Gunner.)
06-13-2019 12:29 AM
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Post: #821
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 12:29 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  The saved, freed from anxiety about their own salvation, can devote their attention to helping their fellow humans.

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
1 Corinthians 9:27

If St. Paul himself wasn't "freed from anxiety about [his] own salvation," why are some Protestants so sure they've already won the race? That doesn't seem very Biblical. In fact, the Scriptures use the word "saved" in three different time-tenses: past ("we were saved"), present ("we who are being saved"), and future ("we shall be saved").

Clearly, the Scriptures do not take "salvation" to be a one-time, binary event which you either have or do not. The full picture of Apostolic teaching clearly demonstrates it as a process from which people can fall away through sin and negligence. Personally I like to think that I am "saved from some things, but still working on others" because I've learned that the moment I get cocky about my righteousness, I am swiftly shown why I shouldn't be. God is quick to remind me that whatever small amount of virtue I've attained is not from me or my own power, but entirely by His grace and not something I should take for granted.

Lastly, you wrote: "So, Protestants perform good works and become more holy through their love for God, not because they fear God, fear Hell, or expect an eternal reward."

These "tiers of motivation" have been part of Church teachings since the 1st century, and the Orthodox do believe that love for God is a higher motivation than either fear of Hell or expectation of reward. A Jewish philosopher, Philo, actually wrote about it first - and the ancient Church quickly adopted the concept. I believe Father Andrew Louth has a chapter devoted to Philo and his teachings in his (excellent) book "The Origins Of The Christian Mystical Tradition: From Plato To Denys."

As Aurini mentioned the other day, almost all of the Protestant attacks on Orthodoxy and Catholicism are based on mischaracterizing what we actually believe Smile

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Mason And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 02:08 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
06-13-2019 01:54 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #822
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 12:03 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ...
Quote:Fasting Rules:
-No meat, fats, dairy, eggs, alcohol
-Allowed: honey, vegetable & olive oil

That's the literal translation, but there are others within Orthodoxy who take it to mean no cooking oils at all. What's a little soybean oil instead of olive oil? I mean the rules did say no olive oil so it must be ok?
...

This is crossing the line of respectful discourse.

The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 02:03 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
06-13-2019 02:02 AM
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Post: #823
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 11:02 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Yes this has the potential to be explosive, but I'm examing the nature of these debates to formulate guidelines in the future. At the end of the day, someone has to be emotionally "okay" with their doctrines getting trashed, and only respond intellectually. Otherwise there is no way different denominations can peacefully exist in the same threads.

This is essential, as I see denominations as different (valid) containers for certain personality types.*

The demarcation of a Christian is believing Christ is the son of God and salvation is through him alone.

Denomination bickering, while sometime fun for metaphysics wonks (guilty!), is ultimately counterproductive. Especially when the culture is at war with the principle statement I made above.

However, hardcore specific-denomination supporters will instead argue that it is an issue of heresy and stray paths. Sadly I have never read a compelling argument to support this.


* Note: Except Anglicans, they can go to hell. Smile
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 03:07 AM by TooFineAPoint.)
06-13-2019 03:04 AM
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Post: #824
RE: The God pill
(06-12-2019 07:51 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  Hi Vladimir Poontang.

These last weeks must have been very difficult for you after your sister dying.

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-72944.html

You were obviously very distressed at the event. I take no offense at you not taking me up on my offer for you to phone me, when you asked the men of this forum for some help. I get it. We are just strangers on the internet.

Anyway, I hope all is well with you.

And if you ever do need a different perspective, I'm only a PM away. I'll pick up the call so you won't have to incur the cost. I have an international phone package, so it would be much cheaper for me.

All the best to you.

Appreciated.

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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06-13-2019 04:10 AM
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Radu Anghel Offline
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Post: #825
RE: The God pill
"I think the Orthodox Church worships idols and some of their traditions contradict the Bible directly making them sinful."

Icons are not idols and the Orthodox do not worship them. The word used in relation to icons is "veneration". Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country).

God instructed Moses to create images. If you think God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God.

The Incarnation of Christ changed the game. Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted.

What traditions do you consider sinful?
06-13-2019 05:11 AM
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