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The God pill
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #826
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 01:54 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 12:29 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  The saved, freed from anxiety about their own salvation, can devote their attention to helping their fellow humans.

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
1 Corinthians 9:27

If St. Paul himself wasn't "freed from anxiety about [his] own salvation," why are some Protestants so sure they've already won the race?

I don't think this is the correct interpretation. If you read all of Chapter 9, Paul is basically talking about various things that contribute to making him either more or less effective at preaching the gospel. Any sort of bad conduct on his part, or any action of his that would give those he was preaching to cause to doubt his message is thus to be avoided. This is the disqualification he refers to in verse 27 - that he should be disqualified or discredited as a preacher by his conduct, and thus become ineffective a a messenger of Christ. It seems rather clear that he was not referring to being disqualified from salvation entirely, especially when one considers the sum total of the Pauline epistles, which utterly overflow with Paul's faith, devotion and joy in regards to having been called by Christ. This was not a man who doubted his own salvation, rather, this was a man utterly consumed by the desire to spread the good news of salvation to as many others as he could in the time he was allotted. In fact, it was only this assurance of salvation, derived through unyielding faith in the promise of Christ to redeem his elect, that allowed a man who regarded himself as the greatest of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15) to become the most effective preacher in the history of the church, despite facing incredible trials and persecutions along the way (2 Cor. 11:23-27).

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
06-13-2019 08:50 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #827
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 01:54 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 12:29 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  The saved, freed from anxiety about their own salvation, can devote their attention to helping their fellow humans.

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul is not talking about losing Salvation, but rather being disqualified as as a leader in the church for not doing his very best. The running to win the prize does not mean that the prize is Salvation. The running to win the prize is a figure of speech indicating that when God assigns Spiritual Gifts, the recipient must utilize them to the best of his ability. If they do not, then they have lost the race, i.e., they have disqualified themselves from God’s main purpose for their lives. Reading Chapter 9 in full context shows that if Paul were to accept money for his work, in his opinion, there would be a lesser Blessing than if money was not accepted. A prize is something that you win because of what you did. Salvation is a gift because of what Christ did.


(06-13-2019 01:54 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  Clearly, the Scriptures do not take "salvation" to be a one-time, binary event which you either have or do not. The full picture of Apostolic teaching clearly demonstrates it as a process from which people can fall away through sin and negligence. Personally I like to think that I am "saved from some things, but still working on others" because I've learned that the moment I get cocky about my righteousness, I am swiftly shown why I shouldn't be. God is quick to remind me that whatever small amount of virtue I've attained is not from me or my own power, but entirely by His grace and not something I should take for granted.

We agree. I think that I was quite clear about that:

Quote: Leading a life that is not marked by good works and that is marked by evil or immoral behavior can lead to the loss of one's salvation; thus the believer's behavior has a pivotal role in the ongoing experience of salvation, and thus the warnings against "backsliding."

If a man rejects Christ, the source of his salvation, then his salvation is lost. It is not something that God has done; it is something that he has done.


(06-13-2019 01:54 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  Lastly, you wrote: "So, Protestants perform good works and become more holy through their love for God, not because they fear God, fear Hell, or expect an eternal reward."

These "tiers of motivation" have been part of Church teachings since the 1st century, and the Orthodox do believe that love for God is a higher motivation than either fear of Hell or expectation of reward. A Jewish philosopher, Philo, actually wrote about it first - and the ancient Church quickly adopted the concept. I believe Father Andrew Louth has a chapter devoted to Philo and his teachings in his (excellent) book "The Origins Of The Christian Mystical Tradition: From Plato To Denys."

As Aurini mentioned the other day, almost all of the Protestant attacks on Orthodoxy and Catholicism are based on mischaracterizing what we actually believe Smile

I was directly responding to what Roosh wrote:

Quote:For me, the Protestant method of salvation can seem algorithmic depending on the denomination (do this, then you're guaranteed that), but my main concern is that if someone thinks they are saved no matter what from that point forth, that could lead to weaker faith and backsliding. If you're saved, why pray daily? Why fast? Why worry about the little sins? Why even think of God in your daily life?

That sounds as if it stems from a fear of God -- or an expectation of an eternal reward. The reason that you think of God in your daily life is from your love of God, which Jesus called the greatest commandment:

Quote:"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

Matthew 37-38 KJV.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 10:29 AM by Tail Gunner.)
06-13-2019 10:19 AM
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Post: #828
RE: The God pill
If you don't have a Holy fear of God, there is certainly a degree of evil in your life. At the minimum, pride. Without Holy Fear, you will get stuck at a certain stage of spiritual growth, since there is no motivation for additional purification.

As for expecting a reward, Jesus did not rebuke Peter when he asked what the reward for following Him is, but He did rebuke Peter strongly for refusing Jesus' premonition that he would die in Jerusalem ("Get behind me, Satan"). Instead, He clearly explained the reward to him. There is nothing wrong with expecting a reward. Jesus even explained in a parable the reward levels based on your earthly "production" (100 fold, 60 fold, 30 fold).

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06-13-2019 10:40 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #829
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 10:40 AM)Roosh Wrote:  If you don't have a Holy fear of God, there is certainly a degree of evil in your life. At the minimum, pride. Without Holy Fear, you will get stuck at a certain stage of spiritual growth, since there is no motivation for additional purification.

As for expecting a reward, Jesus did not rebuke Peter when he asked what the reward for following Him is, but He did rebuke Peter strongly for refusing Jesus' premonition that he would die in Jerusalem ("Get behind me, Satan"). Instead, He clearly explained the reward to him. There is nothing wrong with expecting a reward. Jesus even explained in a parable the reward levels based on your earthly "production" (100 fold, 60 fold, 30 fold).

I cannot argue with any of that. I myself originally came to Christ largely out of a fear of the Lord and a fear of Hell. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 1:7.

You asked: "If you're saved, why pray daily? Why fast? Why worry about the little sins? Why even think of God in your daily life?" My point was that the primary reason for not backsliding, once you come to know and love God, should be your love of God, which Jesus called the greatest commandment.
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06-13-2019 10:48 AM
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scorpion Offline
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Post: #830
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 10:40 AM)Roosh Wrote:  If you don't have a Holy fear of God, there is certainly a degree of evil in your life. At the minimum, pride. Without Holy Fear, you will get stuck at a certain stage of spiritual growth, since there is no motivation for additional purification.

As for expecting a reward, Jesus did not rebuke Peter when he asked what the reward for following Him is, but He did rebuke Peter strongly for refusing Jesus' premonition that he would die in Jerusalem ("Get behind me, Satan"). Instead, He clearly explained the reward to him. There is nothing wrong with expecting a reward. Jesus even explained in a parable the reward levels based on your earthly "production" (100 fold, 60 fold, 30 fold).

It is right and natural to fear God, as this is injunction is repeated clearly throughout both the New and Old Testaments. However, when a believer is sanctified and justified through faith in Christ, and further, when that believer makes that faith fruitful through good works and thereby proves it to be genuine, then their fear of God takes a new shape. When the believer is assured of his salvation he need no longer fear the wrath of God, for he has been spared of this deserved judgment by the blood of Christ. Instead, he now fears disappointing God and bringing shame upon the name of the savior by his actions, both public and private. Thus the pain and guilt the assured believer feels when sinning against God becomes so intense that it itself becomes the wrath of God to be feared, yet it is born not out of fear but out of love for God. As long as we retain the fleshly body of Adam we will never be entirely without sin. But through Christ, we can be secure in the belief that our sins have been forgiven, literally covered by his blood, and that God remembers our sin no more. This is the heart of the New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31-34).

As for rewards, I think one of the most humbling passages in scripture is Revelation 4:10-11, where John saw a vision of elders throwing their crowns at the feet of Christ and claiming that he alone was worthy of honor and glory. In other words, all of the spiritual crowns we may earn in this life through devotion and service to God are not to be understood as increasing our standing and favor in the eyes of God, rather they themselves are merely sacrifices and symbols of thanksgiving to be cast at the feet of Christ with overwhelming gratitude and appreciation for the gift he first gave us.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
06-13-2019 11:29 AM
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Post: #831
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 12:03 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  If you're willing to bend the rules on the oil rule when there are clearly those within Orthodoxy who go above and beyond to have no oil why not bend the rules elsewhere?

How will other Eastern churches feel about these deviations? Have you not deviated from what they observe as Christlike? Did Christ not abstain from everything but water during his fast? I betcha the devil tempted him with some pommegranite juice . It is technically water. There may be some food in it but only a little. Can't be that bad right?

Or as you say, theu don't care about the fasting rules. I'm willing to bet there's someone out there who does.

I say this all of course in jest as the devil's advocate, but it offers a good point. No Christian is immune to backsliding in their faith even in the face of immense tradition and history.

I'm not bending the rules or making personal exemptions; I'm following Armenian Church authority. I can't abide by rules of every church denomination, especially ones I'm not in communion with. If the authority I'm following is wrong then I will hear out an opposing authority within my church, but you are not that authority.

Hiding your pseudo trolling behind "devil's advocacy" may have been okay in the past, but not in these threads. If you have an objection, state it plainly and clearly.

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06-13-2019 01:07 PM
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Post: #832
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 11:29 AM)scorpion Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 10:40 AM)Roosh Wrote:  If you don't have a Holy fear of God, there is certainly a degree of evil in your life. At the minimum, pride. Without Holy Fear, you will get stuck at a certain stage of spiritual growth, since there is no motivation for additional purification.

As for expecting a reward, Jesus did not rebuke Peter when he asked what the reward for following Him is, but He did rebuke Peter strongly for refusing Jesus' premonition that he would die in Jerusalem ("Get behind me, Satan"). Instead, He clearly explained the reward to him. There is nothing wrong with expecting a reward. Jesus even explained in a parable the reward levels based on your earthly "production" (100 fold, 60 fold, 30 fold).

It is right and natural to fear God, as this is injunction is repeated clearly throughout both the New and Old Testaments. However, when a believer is sanctified and justified through faith in Christ, and further, when that believer makes that faith fruitful through good works and thereby proves it to be genuine, then their fear of God takes a new shape. When the believer is assured of his salvation he need no longer fear the wrath of God, for he has been spared of this deserved judgment by the blood of Christ. Instead, he now fears disappointing God and bringing shame upon the name of the savior by his actions, both public and private. Thus the pain and guilt the assured believer feels when sinning against God becomes so intense that it itself becomes the wrath of God to be feared, yet it is born not out of fear but out of love for God. As long as we retain the fleshly body of Adam we will never be entirely without sin. But through Christ, we can be secure in the belief that our sins have been forgiven, literally covered by his blood, and that God remembers our sin no more. This is the heart of the New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31-34).

As for rewards, I think one of the most humbling passages in scripture is Revelation 4:10-11, where John saw a vision of elders throwing their crowns at the feet of Christ and claiming that he alone was worthy of honor and glory. In other words, all of the spiritual crowns we may earn in this life through devotion and service to God are not to be understood as increasing our standing and favor in the eyes of God, rather they themselves are merely sacrifices and symbols of thanksgiving to be cast at the feet of Christ with overwhelming gratitude and appreciation for the gift he first gave us.

There are three ways to look at a relationship with God:

1. Slave - from a position of fear ("Please God don't punish me")
2. Servant - from a position of seeking gain ("I have served you, may I have a reward?")
3. Child - from a position of pure love ("I am sorry I have angered/displeased you")

I see a healthy relationship with God as a balance of all three. You use free will to be a slave to His will (instead of a slave to sin) and do not want to be punished with eternal damnation. For your faith (and the fruit that bears from that faith), you hope for a reward, because you know God is just. You also love God, and know how saddened He was during your times of sin when you were farthest from Him.

I do agree with Scorpion that a relationship based entirely on fear is lacking. All three will be present in a mix that changes with your spiritual development., but I don't believe fear should be eliminated entirely.

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06-13-2019 01:14 PM
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Post: #833
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 01:14 PM)Roosh Wrote:  There are three ways to look at a relationship with God:

There is a forth way:

1. On 4chan pretend being Christian to troll aggravating atheists, while you actually are a non-believer.
2. Get a Bible and read it to make the LARP more believable and to quote random verses.
3. Suddenly the Spirit says Hello to you.
4. Start praying.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that's essentially how the most important step in my journey (the actual conversion) happened: Fake it till you make it.
06-13-2019 02:11 PM
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Post: #834
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 01:07 PM)Roosh Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 12:03 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  If you're willing to bend the rules on the oil rule when there are clearly those within Orthodoxy who go above and beyond to have no oil why not bend the rules elsewhere?

How will other Eastern churches feel about these deviations? Have you not deviated from what they observe as Christlike? Did Christ not abstain from everything but water during his fast? I betcha the devil tempted him with some pommegranite juice . It is technically water. There may be some food in it but only a little. Can't be that bad right?

Or as you say, theu don't care about the fasting rules. I'm willing to bet there's someone out there who does.

I say this all of course in jest as the devil's advocate, but it offers a good point. No Christian is immune to backsliding in their faith even in the face of immense tradition and history.

I'm not bending the rules or making personal exemptions; I'm following Armenian Church authority. I can't abide by rules of every church denomination, especially ones I'm not in communion with. If the authority I'm following is wrong then I will hear out an opposing authority within my church, but you are not that authority.

Hiding your pseudo trolling behind "devil's advocacy" may have been okay in the past, but not in these threads. If you have an objection, state it plainly and clearly.

Thank you for your response. I wasn't trying to "pseudo troll" and apologize if my method of inquiry was too direct.

The point of it was an observation that Orthodoxy isn't a Byzantine entity (pun intended) in the way that the Catholic Church is. In terms of adherences and rules, it looks to be as diverse as protestantism is in its differences between certain rules and adherences while simultaneously allowing communion between them (I may be mistaken, please correct me if I am).

Yes there are significant similarities in belief that fall under the umbrella of "Orthodoxy", but those differences between denominational authority, while it seems to not be commonly discussed, do sometimes run contrary to run another.

I want to ask: what are the differences of practice between each denominational authority within Orthodoxy? We've already discussed fasting differences, but it seems like there are more.

How do leaders within Orthodoxy handle those differences and how do they (if at all) reconcile them?

Looking around on the internet, it seems that schisms not only occur, but do in fact happen even in the modern era:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/ne...olics-hope

Quote: When the primate of Ukraine's independent Orthodox church was formally enthroned in early February, there were hopes for some easing of the bitter atmosphere over the new church's break with Russia's Moscow Patriarchate.

With Russian Orthodox leaders rejecting the new church and cold-shouldering the ecumenical patriarchate for approving its creation, the feud looks set to continue and intensify in the run-up to Ukraine's crucial presidential elections on March 31.

Granted, this looks like there are other non-religious political machinations happening, but it should also be stated that the original schism in 1054 was also partially driven by non-religious machinations like political meddling of the church within Constantinople (seat of imperial power) versus Rome's relative autonomy.

What about other occurrences like this? I found this long article from St. Vladmir's Seminary to be interesting. It appears that seeking unity, even with the theological differences within Orthodoxy, is just a fraught as it is among protestants.

https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dia...nity-today

Edit: I know I already said this but I would like to say it again: I ask this question as genuinely as possible and mean no trolling or ill will whatsoever. I hope that my writing conveys this intention.

Shalom Alechem!
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 03:52 PM by The Beast1.)
06-13-2019 02:56 PM
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Post: #835
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  What about other occurrences like this? I found this long article from St. Vladmir's Seminary to be interesting. It appears that seeking unity, even with the theological differences within Orthodoxy, is just a fraught as it is among protestants.

https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dia...nity-today

I cannot say that I know too much about the Orthodox Church. I only had time to skim through the article, but it is very interesting indeed.

Where there is man, there is conflict -- even in the Church.
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06-13-2019 03:54 PM
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Post: #836
RE: The God pill
God gave us free will for a reason. I don't think being afraid of hell or his judgement is what he intended when he gave us this gift. Why then give us free will only to frighten his children into behaving like he wants? He has the power to command and make us obey if that was his true intention.

Fear is the opposite of love. So what exactly are we suppose to learn if not to love more?

I am not afraid of God's judgement. I am not afraid of hell or damnation. The more I go down the God rabbit hole the more I don't want to go back to the way I thought nor the way I acted. I've found that the more fear I lose the more it opens myself up to love. More love for God and more love for all those around me.

Everything that I have been learning and putting into practice makes me feel like I am being set free. When I slip and fall back into a bad way of thought then I feel the difference. I no longer feel good nor free.

It's great to see others sharing the same adventure.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 06:45 PM by worldwidetraveler.)
06-13-2019 06:40 PM
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Post: #837
RE: The God pill
(06-11-2019 05:22 PM)Pinkman Wrote:  I was raised Atheist but I've gotten interested in the spiritual path lately. A few genuine questions for the people who have turned to Christ from Atheism or Agnosticism:

1. Do you see your specific brand (Catholicism/Protestantism/Baptism etc) as the true faith/path or are you following it more for cultural/social reasons? And what made you choose that specific brand of Christianity? Did you read through what each one was about or did you choose it because it was the first brand you were exposed to?

I was still an atheist, but had come around to Catholic morality through reason (and acknowledgement of major errors in my own life that resulted from violating it). Protestantism has always been self evidently false because of it's Holier Than Though/Puritanical Judgmentalism, and I used to mistake it for all of Christianity, but as the years went by - and being basically educated in Christianity 101 by virtue of living in Western Civilization - I learned that there was great merit in Catholicism's values, even if I remained atheist on the ultimate question. They actually walked the talk.

Quote:2. What did you read that sold you on the Christian faith and made you into a believer? What specific books (or parts of them) convinced you?

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, and basic moral logic; only God's death can balance the scales of our sin.

Quote:3. Have you been convinced logically or is it more of a "feel"? If the latter, how come you chose Christianity over a pagan religion, Buddhism or other perhaps more directly applicable religious doctrines? Do you "mix and match" from the Bible along with your own beliefs that you held prior to becoming Christian, or are you more of an "if it's not in the Bible, it ain't true" kind of guy?

Sometimes I wish I hadn't been convinced, so that I could still follow my own idiotic predilections; but I know that they are illogical.

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06-13-2019 07:45 PM
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RE: The God pill
God over man, man over women.

I find this idea extremely interesting.

Men in the west are complaining that women aren't 'submitting' to them, that women should submit to men. But then, in that same concept, men should also submit to God.

How many men in the west are doing this?
A man who doesn't completely submit to his creator (or, a higher purpose greater than himself, for people who are less spiritual) does not deserve a woman totally giving herself to him, submitting to him. Why would she?

For so long, I was obsessed with having a woman who was very submissive.

What I really wanted was to find that submission in myself-
For me to submit totally to God.

I have listened to a few Islamic lectures recently. One where the speaker says he hopes to be "a slave of Allah, in every sense of the word."

Another lecturer said "may Allah have his foot on our neck at all times".

That may be a bit extreme for some, but I totally understand it.
I seek a life of total submission to the creator.

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06-13-2019 11:25 PM
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Post: #839
RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 01:07 PM)Roosh Wrote:  
(06-13-2019 12:03 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  If you're willing to bend the rules on the oil rule when there are clearly those within Orthodoxy who go above and beyond to have no oil why not bend the rules elsewhere?

How will other Eastern churches feel about these deviations? Have you not deviated from what they observe as Christlike? Did Christ not abstain from everything but water during his fast? I betcha the devil tempted him with some pommegranite juice . It is technically water. There may be some food in it but only a little. Can't be that bad right?

Or as you say, theu don't care about the fasting rules. I'm willing to bet there's someone out there who does.

I say this all of course in jest as the devil's advocate, but it offers a good point. No Christian is immune to backsliding in their faith even in the face of immense tradition and history.

I'm not bending the rules or making personal exemptions; I'm following Armenian Church authority. I can't abide by rules of every church denomination, especially ones I'm not in communion with. If the authority I'm following is wrong then I will hear out an opposing authority within my church, but you are not that authority.

Hiding your pseudo trolling behind "devil's advocacy" may have been okay in the past, but not in these threads. If you have an objection, state it plainly and clearly.

Thank you for your response. I wasn't trying to "pseudo troll" and apologize if my method of inquiry was too direct.

The point of it was an observation that Orthodoxy isn't a Byzantine entity (pun intended) in the way that the Catholic Church is. In terms of adherences and rules, it looks to be as diverse as protestantism is in its differences between certain rules and adherences while simultaneously allowing communion between them (I may be mistaken, please correct me if I am).

Yes there are significant similarities in belief that fall under the umbrella of "Orthodoxy", but those differences between denominational authority, while it seems to not be commonly discussed, do sometimes run contrary to run another.

I want to ask: what are the differences of practice between each denominational authority within Orthodoxy? We've already discussed fasting differences, but it seems like there are more.

How do leaders within Orthodoxy handle those differences and how do they (if at all) reconcile them?

Looking around on the internet, it seems that schisms not only occur, but do in fact happen even in the modern era:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/ne...olics-hope

Quote: When the primate of Ukraine's independent Orthodox church was formally enthroned in early February, there were hopes for some easing of the bitter atmosphere over the new church's break with Russia's Moscow Patriarchate.

With Russian Orthodox leaders rejecting the new church and cold-shouldering the ecumenical patriarchate for approving its creation, the feud looks set to continue and intensify in the run-up to Ukraine's crucial presidential elections on March 31.

Granted, this looks like there are other non-religious political machinations happening, but it should also be stated that the original schism in 1054 was also partially driven by non-religious machinations like political meddling of the church within Constantinople (seat of imperial power) versus Rome's relative autonomy.

What about other occurrences like this? I found this long article from St. Vladmir's Seminary to be interesting. It appears that seeking unity, even with the theological differences within Orthodoxy, is just a fraught as it is among protestants.

https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dia...nity-today

Edit: I know I already said this but I would like to say it again: I ask this question as genuinely as possible and mean no trolling or ill will whatsoever. I hope that my writing conveys this intention.

You are using a western framework or mentality to try to understand eastern orthodox ecclesiology. Oriental orthodox churches aren't EO, for reasons we have spoken about, and none of which are that important, but they are important enough to prevent full "unity". Still, they are also historical and ethnic entities, which I think ultimately is the issue, if I had to guess.

Say what you want about Russia this or Ukraine that, you are eastern orthodox if you faithfully adhere to the doctrine and praxis of said churches. The rest is politics, pure and simple, which is not and has never been a determinant of the faith. If it had, the greatest saints wouldn't have been exiled by emperors, something that wasn't uncommon. Maximos' tongue was cut out of his mouth and his right hand cut off. Chrysostom was likewise exiled by emperors. They were always the quintessential orthodox, but more than that --- true christians in the greatest sense, proper students, teachers and followers.
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2019 11:52 PM by Kid Twist.)
06-13-2019 11:49 PM
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DeadlyReed Offline
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Post: #840
RE: The God pill
Slaves aren't tools for God, they're tools for other men.
06-14-2019 12:23 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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RE: The God pill
Put it on a poster and sell it at the next Fedora festival.

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06-14-2019 12:31 AM
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Rorogue Offline
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RE: The God pill
Delete- Sorry, wrong thread

The most powerful thing you can do is detach from needing something
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2019 01:38 AM by Rorogue.)
06-14-2019 01:37 AM
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MusicForThePiano Offline
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Post: #843
RE: The God pill
Rorogue its not being a slave because your creator made you out of his own love of creation. A slave is one who is bound against their will, or without a priori knowledge of a better world or life otherwise. The Romans believed in this, because some cultures were so primitive and backwards that slavery for them was a bestowing of gifts compared to the immoral life they lived. It depends on the circumstances. If you are totally subservient to your creator, it is only a natural role to take. There is nothing slavish about belonging to God. The slaves are the ones around us who sell out for money, who can't resist one more fix, who turn on their family and friends to virtue snivel for human masters. Ask yourself, who is the slave, one who is beholden to God or one who is beholden to humans? Even if you wouldn't view yourself as a slave, many of us are trapped in a fleshy slavery for as long as we breathe because we are not masters of our passions or vices.

If God's foot is on my neck all the time, then I would feel blessed. But this is not in accordance with free will. He cannot force us to choose one or another, that is the point of the game, we must choose for ourselves which path to tread. Sin is slavery, flesh is slavery, humanity is slavery. Connection and obeisance to God is freedom, many don't realize that.
06-14-2019 04:54 AM
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RE: The God pill
Some thoughts on this topic, in which I hopefully can avoid being belligerent, such as I am prone to being.

Reading E Michael Jones has given great insight into how we got here. None of his research is original. He is simply connecting dots for the reader. I started last year by reading some of his shorter kindle books. I read two years of his monthly magazine editions. This year I read LD, JRS and now I'm getting through Barren Metal.

I had been drawn more to God through reason; studying the cosmological arguments. From there I was drawn to the Orthodox Church as it seems to be seen as the only authentic un-pozzed church remaining. I was however taken in by EMJ's theory of religion as ethnicity, and coming from a Catholic country I decided to look more into the faith that sustained my ancestors.

Reading the history has given me deep context. A shift occurs whereby you start to measure the events of today not in comparison to recent times, but over the course of a thousand years. You are left with a sense of comfort, knowing that bizarre as things are today, our forefathers battled equally bizarre and difficult things in their lifetimes, just presented in a different context.

Learning about the JQ by reading EMJ's thorough critique in the JRS leaves you with absolutely zero doubt about this perennial thorn in the Christian society's side. EMJ has pushed this idea of Logos, which I think is powerful. Logos is God, Truth, the underlying logic of everything. Jews are in rebellion against Logos. This is why the Jewish people is characterised by such malevolence, and then tragedy once there is a reaction to their evil.

Learning about the history of Protestantism is another devastating blow to my feelings of ecumenism. While we have no qualms towards believers in Christ, Protestantism as a movement was founded in pillage of the Catholic Church (CC), sexual licence, and theological error. Protestantism is characterised by rebellion and revolution but to a lesser degree than Judaism.

I'm struck again and again by the order of the CC. A Catholic submits to the Church, not blindly, but by virtue of reason. It seems that Protestants more or less decide what they want, of course supported by suitable Bible verses. There are Protestants who are more holy and godly than many Catholics. I would urge these Protestants to delve deeply into the history and come to see that the CC was never your enemy.

The CC faced an existential crisis in the 16th century, brought on by serious negligence and sin on the part of the Church leadership. However the Church was rehabilitated by four successive popes who totally transformed how the Church was run, excising the cancer and proving that reform from within was possible. This was known as the Counter Reformation.

The Reformation was just another exercise in bullshit like the Enlightenment. The Reformation was rubbish theologically, and it was used by greedy princes as a justification for their theft and looting of the monasteries. Luther, a man who could not control his sexual passions, was the cover they needed.

The Enlightenment was a Whig black op against the Catholic French crown that got out of hand. The Whig establishment in England prohibited the publication of the very subversive ideology they promoted in France through their French agents.

The CC split with the Orthodox Church hundreds of years before that, however our doctrine is basically the same and we can partake in the sacraments in each other's churches. Both are apostolic, as is the Armenian, if I recall correctly.

The decentralised structure of the Orthodox Churches is lauded by many. Anti-fragile, etc. Yet we learn from the past that centralisation was a necessary part of building a force that could fend off serious threats, i.e. from the Jew within and the Turk, etc. without.

Now we see that the evil powers that have been working on undermining the CC for hundreds of years, are also attacking the Orthodox by helping to engineer a split in the Ukrainian and Russian churches. The Orthodox seem to have weathered many storms but might not have been subjected to attacks of the scale and magnitude of the CC. The sheer size of the CC organisation makes it prone to attacks that smaller churches cannot comprehend. This is just my intuition on the matter and I accept I could be reading this wrongly.

One often hears the question regarding which religion is the right one. My answer would be that it's more a question of which is more true. Who has the answer to that? Nobody. But we can argue that some religions are more or less true than others. God is about truth, i.e. what is true.

What can we say for example about Paganism? It seems like outdated software. At one time our understanding was more incomplete. We hadn't yet discovered or inferred much of the reality of the metaphysical. But today something like Paganism is a regressive, backward way of thinking, of course with man at the centre, dictating the terms of his faith, and cutting things like the reality of Jesus Christ out of the picture. Everything hinges on Christ.

Contra some opinions above I think that we do need to hash out the differences between Catholics and Protestants. It is important and it does matter. Protestantism is divisive. We cannot unite against Satan and all his manifestations in the (((modern))) world when we are divided like this.

The CC is the only structure which we can organise within and, God-willing, mount a united front against the Poz. Christ built his Church upon Peter. It will not fail. Protestantism is about "my interpretation." No army can function when the privates dictate to the generals.

We have to unite around religion and ethnicity to a lesser degree. This war is spiritual. Being white is great etc but we've already lost by defining ourselves this way. White English murdered white Irish for hundreds of years. Rallying around whiteness is a mistake. It's meaningless. Once we do that, the Jew disappears, because he is white.

We have to choose a religion to unite under and to take our activities off-line and into the world. I think the latest round of youtube censorship will actually help us if it gets more of us off the useless internet and into the churches where we can start to form some meaningful movement.
06-14-2019 05:13 AM
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scorpion Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-13-2019 11:25 PM)Rorogue Wrote:  What I really wanted was to find that submission in myself-
For me to submit totally to God.

...

That may be a bit extreme for some, but I totally understand it.
I seek a life of total submission to the creator.

The Greek word doulos is littered throughout the New Testament and is usually translated as 'servant' or 'bondservant', but the actual literal translation is 'slave'. And this is the more accurate understanding of the term in the Christian context, despite the negative connotations the word carries to the modern reader. The fact is that if you confess Jesus Christ as Lord, then you are simultaneously identifying yourself as his slave. John MacArthur had a good sermon on this topic, here is an excerpt:

Dr. John MacArthur, "Servant or Slave?" Wrote:Just a couple of illustrations to show you how important it is. Jesus said, “No man can serve two”...What?...“masters.” Well, you could if you were a servant, right? You could serve two people, couldn’t you? You could have a day job and a night job. A lot of people work for more than one person, but you can’t be a slave to two masters because you can only be owned by one.

Jesus talked slave talk all the time. The writers of the New Testament talked slave talk all the time. But we don’t see it because it’s not there in our English text. The Russian Bible has it right. Other international translations have it right. We don’t. This was how Christians referred to themselves in the early church. There’s a story about a man named Epheneus who was imprisoned by the Romans for his commitment to Christ. And then he was brought into some inquisition, and they asked him to answer their questions and to recant his devotion to Christ and swear his allegiance to Caesar. Every question they asked him got the same answer. He said this, “I am a slave of Christ. I am a slave of Christ.” And for that, he was executed.

When you think about terms used to describe Christians in the New Testament, we’re called children of God, right? We’re called heirs and joint-heirs. We’re called members of the body of Christ. We’re even designated as branches, sheep. And you don’t want to mix all those metaphors because each of those gives you a facet of understanding and aspect of our relationship to Christ. But the dominating word inside of which our full understanding of salvation is best seen as this word “slave.”

Now there’s a corresponding word that I want to mention as well, and that is the word “master,” right? If I were to ask you...let me ask you a fundamental question: “What is the foundational reality that defines what it means to be a Christian? What is the fundamental reality that distinguishes the believer’s relationship to Christ? What is our great confession in three words?” Jesus is Lord.

In fact, if you want to be saved, Romans 10:9 and 10 says, “You confess Jesus as Lord.” Kurios is the corresponding word to doulos. Kurios is “lord and master.” Doulos is “slave.” You can no more eliminate doulos from the believer’s relationship to the Lord than you could eliminate kurios.

For years I have written books dealing with the issue of the Lordship of Christ to try to help people who think you can become a Christian without acknowledging Jesus as Lord, which is an impossible thing; but nonetheless it’s advocated. And the simple answer to that is this. If He is Lord, which is to say He is Master, then I am His slave. There’s no such thing as a master with no slaves or a slave with no master. And 1 Corinthians 12:3 says, “We call Jesus Lord by the Spirit of God.” We like to talk about Jesus being a personal Savior. And I understand that. But that is so ambiguous. What do you mean “a personal Savior,” like a personal butler? What are you talking about? People say, “You have Him as your personal Savior.” Well, I understand that it’s not a corporate thing, I understand what’s being stated there. But the ambiguity of that phrase suits the contemporary vagueness of the gospel. Like Jesus is my own genie who jumps out of His little bottle when I rub it and ask Him for what I want.

You have to understand, everybody on the planet has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, everybody. And for most people it’s not a good one, but it’s very personal. We have lost this incredibly important concept of Jesus as Lord and I am His slave. We have a man-centered emphasis in the church. We have man-centered theology that dominates evangelicalism, in which we talk about Jesus coming along as a kind of a buddy who loves you and wants to satisfy all your desires and give you everything you want. But that’s not what the New Testament teaches. What the New Testament teaches is not that you’re lord and He’s your slave; it’s that He’s Lord and you’re His slave. That’s the center of all New Testament teaching. It is inherent in saying Jesus is Lord that you are a slave who understands that obedience is the necessary response. The reality of Christ’s lordship has been obscured by hiding the word “slave.”

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” - Romans 8:18
06-14-2019 08:07 AM
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Rorogue Offline
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RE: The God pill
Thank you Scorpion. Good to know the idea also exists in Christianity.

The most powerful thing you can do is detach from needing something
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2019 08:48 AM by Rorogue.)
06-14-2019 08:47 AM
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PainPositive Offline
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Post: #847
RE: The God pill
Roosh Wrote:I do agree with Scorpion that a relationship based entirely on fear is lacking. All three will be present in a mix that changes with your spiritual development., but I don't believe fear should be eliminated entirely.

Ecclesiastes talks about a lot of things (Along with fearing God) and is a great book for guys like us. He's tasted nearly every form of hedonism and earthly pleasures. The author tells us that worldly things are "Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity."

Then he tells us the conclusion...

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)
06-14-2019 09:27 AM
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PainPositive Offline
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RE: The God pill
I need a question answered by my Orthodox bros here (not a gotcha question, honestly)

I'm still trying to find a way I can worship in an Orthodox Church (if I can get through my hang ups with it) so my question is can I believe "Prima scriptura" and still be Orthodox?

Also what if I only have a Orthodox (Serbian) Church in my city and don't want to convert. Can I still attend the church regularly there or will they eventually ask me to leave for being a heretic?

(Obviously I'm not going there to spout my beliefs in someone else's Church or argue with anyone. I just want to go to be closer to God.)
06-14-2019 12:45 PM
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Roosh Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-14-2019 12:45 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  I need a question answered by my Orthodox bros here (not a gotcha question, honestly)

I'm still trying to find a way I can worship in an Orthodox Church (if I can get through my hang ups with it) so my question is can I believe "Prima scriptura" and still be Orthodox?

Also what if I only have a Orthodox (Serbian) Church in my city and don't want to convert. Can I still attend the church regularly there or will they eventually ask me to leave for being a heretic?

(Obviously I'm not going there to spout my beliefs in someone else's Church or argue with anyone. I just want to go to be closer to God.)

As for as I know, you don't have to make fealty with specific doctrines before baptism, but I don't think a priest would baptize you if you had a belief that went against Orthodoxy in favor of another belief. You don't get to "pick and choose" what to accept. I'd ask a priest on this.

As for attending the liturgy, you are free to attend, but you just can't participate in sacraments, particularly Holy Communion.

Roosh
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06-14-2019 02:03 PM
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Spectrumwalker Offline
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Post: #850
RE: The God pill
(06-14-2019 09:27 AM)PainPositive Wrote:  “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)

Right there. In addition to giving the Gospel; here we have....The God Pill.

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06-14-2019 02:06 PM
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