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The God pill
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infowarrior1 Offline
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Post: #876
RE: The God pill
(06-19-2019 02:39 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  The Protestant revolution was not a result of the corruption of the Church, money, theology or sexual liberation - these are all proximate causes. The ultimate cause was the printing press.

The printing press paved the way. And I think divine providence made it so. Even if the motives aren't pure. God makes good come out of what is intended for evil.
06-19-2019 07:19 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #877
RE: The God pill
(06-19-2019 02:39 AM)ilostabet Wrote:  The Protestant revolution was not a result of the corruption of the Church, money, theology or sexual liberation - these are all proximate causes. The ultimate cause was the printing press.

You have it backwards. The proximate cause was, in fact, the corruption of the Catholic Church -- and in particular, the selling of papal indulgences. Even Catholics admit this fact, but argue that the issue should have been resolved within the Catholic Church. The printing press was simply the major means of communicating this corruption. If not for the heresy of selling indulgences, the Protestant Reformation would not have occurred.

Quote: Sent to preach the indulgence in Germany was a Dominican named Tetzel. Tetzel got above himself in his promises, implying that the indulgence even covered the future sins which the buyer was now harboring in his heart.

Frederick the Wise refused to allow the indulgence to be preached in his territory of Saxony, mostly because he was reluctant to allow Saxon coin to leave his financially-depleted realm. Tetzel came as near the border of Saxony as he could. Folk from Wittenberg crossed over and bought the prized papers.

Sparking the Reformation

Afterward a few doubted the efficacy of the writs. They solicited the opinion of a middle-aged monk named Martin Luther. Luther refused to confirm their value. Instead, in an accepted tradition, he posted theses for debate on the door of Wittenberg castle church where a large crowd was expected. The sequel is well known. From those Ninety-Five theses, the Reformation was born when Leo refused to see a problem with the disgraceful sales.

https://www.christianity.com/church/chur...29920.html
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 09:59 AM by Tail Gunner.)
06-19-2019 09:58 AM
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Vladimir Poontang Offline
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Post: #878
RE: The God pill
Abridged bible : I'm sending you a lifeline you degenerates. The least you can do is acknowledge that it's me doing it, and say thank you.

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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06-19-2019 10:10 AM
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Post: #879
RE: The God pill
There were different sects who disagreed with the Church on many issues since its inception. None led to a revolution (which the reformation actually was) because there were no means to do so. You can't have Sola Scriptura without easily accessible Bibles - and you can't have that without the printing press.

If the Church had allowed the printing press to be operational in an earlier period (since the knowledge of movable type actually existed for centuries) I'm sure someone would have come up with some other reason to tear down the institution. This is what revolutionaries do, it's not about the particular institution nor about whatever flaws it's supposed to address. They just like to destroy things, especially if they are old and refuse to adjust to whatever issue the revolutionaries of the day take issue with.

EDIT: Disclaimer: despite my harsh words for the revolutionaries responsible for Protestantism, I have no problem with Protestants who still adhere to the Bible as best they can (as opposed to ones who have lesbian pastors - the revolutionaries of today trying to destroy another institution).

«Spring brings cherry blossoms to comfort you, the summer stars, the harvest moon in fall, and the powdered snow in winter. All of these things, and the promise of them, is what makes sake taste so good. If the taste is bad, it comes from you.»

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(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 10:55 AM by ilostabet.)
06-19-2019 10:53 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #880
RE: The God pill
Would the selling of papal indulgences combined with excessive printing of fiat currency result in...

...sinflation?

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06-19-2019 10:53 AM
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Vladimir Poontang Offline
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Post: #881
RE: The God pill



That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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06-19-2019 02:34 PM
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Vladimir Poontang Offline
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Post: #882
RE: The God pill
Why should anyone believe that Jesus existed, and is who he said he was, and did what he supposedly did?

If a low IQ person who just follows what they've always known and been told, says that they believe in Jesus, do they really believe? On what basis do they believe?

If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?

What if someone decides that they don't have any problem with it being true and they decide to go along with it just to keep an open mind but they don't feel strongly about it, does that person really believe?

Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe? What if you decide to make a choice to believe just in case it's true?

It's one thing to say believe, but what does it actually mean?

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 05:11 AM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-20-2019 05:09 AM
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Post: #883
RE: The God pill
Vox Day knocks it out of the park here:



06-20-2019 05:44 AM
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Post: #884
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?
[...]
Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe?

As a high IQ person (officially tested) I came to the conclusion that the atheistic world view is rubbish. It took me only 15 years of searching and contemplating to figure that out from God's word.

After figuring out the truth I got gifted the grace of experiencing the living God. And when He isn't present, I still believe in Him. I don't know where others draw the line.
06-20-2019 07:24 AM
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Post: #885
RE: The God pill
Jeremy Lin, talking about his rise to fame over “Linsanity”, very similar feelings and thoughts like some of Roosh's experiences with game, women, sex and coming to God:

“Going through that Linsanity stretch, I always kinda said there was an emptiness about it, it was happy, circumstantially and it was awesome and I was loving it, but I also knew that it wasn’t enough, like it was still empty from a fulfillment standpoint. You don’t always understand it until you get there. You can tell a kid, "hey that things really hot, don’t touch it" but it's not until they actually experience it that they [know]..even when you do get a lot of what you think it is, it won’t always be as fulfilling...always why I kinda go back to my faith in terms of grounding me and giving me tremendous purpose and hope"

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfZ9Jgr...&index=130
06-20-2019 07:52 AM
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Post: #886
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 07:24 AM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?
[...]
Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe?

As a high IQ person (officially tested) I came to the conclusion that the atheistic world view is rubbish. It took me only 15 years of searching and contemplating to figure that out from God's word.

After figuring out the truth I got gifted the grace of experiencing the living God. And when He isn't present, I still believe in Him. I don't know where others draw the line.

What I mean is, who has real conviction?

- The low IQ villager who believes because that's all he knows?
- Someone who says "Yeah I'll believe just to be on the safe side, sure, why not"
- The med-high IQ person who thought about it and is now convinced that it's true because of logical arguments?
- The person who sees Jesus give sight to the blind, and who hears his words in person and has reason to feel conviction?

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 09:59 AM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-20-2019 09:56 AM
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Post: #887
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 09:56 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 07:24 AM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?
[...]
Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe?

As a high IQ person (officially tested) I came to the conclusion that the atheistic world view is rubbish. It took me only 15 years of searching and contemplating to figure that out from God's word.

After figuring out the truth I got gifted the grace of experiencing the living God. And when He isn't present, I still believe in Him. I don't know where others draw the line.

What I mean is, who has real conviction?

- The low IQ villager who believes because that's all he knows?
- Someone who says "Yeah I'll believe just to be on the safe side, sure, why not"
- The med-high IQ person who thought about it and is now convinced that it's true because of logical arguments?
- The person who sees Jesus give sight to the blind, and who hears his words in person and has reason to feel conviction?

I don't know the true answer, but you always ask great questions.

I would argue it is the low IQ person. Mentally handicapped people I see at church are all loving life. They get wrapped up in the praise, and seem to be genuinely enriched by going to church. They are the happiest people there while also being the most burdened by their circumstances.

Why? They are 100% faith. They aren't sitting there questioning rational arguments against God. They aren't trying to come up with rational loopholes for why they can have pre-marital sex and not sin.

Its similar to young kids that love going to church. They just don't have the mental capacity to doubt their faith and don't need proof.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
06-20-2019 10:14 AM
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Vladimir Poontang Offline
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Post: #888
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 10:14 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 09:56 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 07:24 AM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?
[...]
Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe?

As a high IQ person (officially tested) I came to the conclusion that the atheistic world view is rubbish. It took me only 15 years of searching and contemplating to figure that out from God's word.

After figuring out the truth I got gifted the grace of experiencing the living God. And when He isn't present, I still believe in Him. I don't know where others draw the line.

What I mean is, who has real conviction?

- The low IQ villager who believes because that's all he knows?
- Someone who says "Yeah I'll believe just to be on the safe side, sure, why not"
- The med-high IQ person who thought about it and is now convinced that it's true because of logical arguments?
- The person who sees Jesus give sight to the blind, and who hears his words in person and has reason to feel conviction?

I don't know the true answer, but you always ask great questions.

I would argue it is the low IQ person. Mentally handicapped people I see at church are all loving life. They get wrapped up in the praise, and seem to be genuinely enriched by going to church. They are the happiest people there while also being the most burdened by their circumstances.

Why? They are 100% faith. They aren't sitting there questioning rational arguments against God. They aren't trying to come up with rational loopholes for why they can have pre-marital sex and not sin.

Its similar to young kids that love going to church. They just don't have the mental capacity to doubt their faith and don't need proof.

I guess it's simpler and easier to just believe without question. But if I was to say I believe, just for the sake of it, just to not go to hell, without thinking about what any of it means, is that real belief? I don't think it is. What if someone says that Santa Claus is the son of God and I should believe in him? What differentiates JC from SC? What is it about Jesus that means I should believe? These are questions that anyone who spends a bit of time thinking will come up with, plus many more.

Should belief be based on simple ignorance and naivety? What if someone tells you that it's ok to eat the fruit of the tree? Didn't Eve have the same simple naive faith that a mentally handicapped person or a simple villager might have about Jesus? Is Eve's faith not commendable? Again, things to think about. I have no idea where conviction is supposed to come from. God why do you make this so hard?

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 10:25 AM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-20-2019 10:25 AM
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Post: #889
RE: The God pill
Perhaps there is a form of belief that is not based in thought, thinking, and the mind, but is something deeper.

If only you knew how bad things really are.
06-20-2019 10:42 AM
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Post: #890
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 10:42 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  Perhaps there is a form of belief that is not based in thought, thinking, and the mind, but is something deeper.

Yes. But if so, it's obviously not something that we know of, or at least it doesn't come naturally. Sometimes I wonder if the idea is to fake it until you make it, and then Jesus will meet you half way and take you the rest of the way, and then you'll know.

But then that still raises the question, will he take you the rest of the way if you say "ok whatever I believe sure why not"?

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

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(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 10:56 AM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-20-2019 10:51 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #891
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 09:56 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 07:24 AM)wwtl Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?
[...]
Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe?

As a high IQ person (officially tested) I came to the conclusion that the atheistic world view is rubbish. It took me only 15 years of searching and contemplating to figure that out from God's word.

After figuring out the truth I got gifted the grace of experiencing the living God. And when He isn't present, I still believe in Him. I don't know where others draw the line.

What I mean is, who has real conviction?

- The low IQ villager who believes because that's all he knows?
- Someone who says "Yeah I'll believe just to be on the safe side, sure, why not"
- The med-high IQ person who thought about it and is now convinced that it's true because of logical arguments?
- The person who sees Jesus give sight to the blind, and who hears his words in person and has reason to feel conviction?

I am always astounded that people have these conversations without referring to scripture. So, what does scripture say? These are just a few helpful verses. It is worth noting that whenever you dig into scripture, you will almost always learn much more than you expected.

Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Luke 18:17 Commentary: We must receive his kingdom as children, not by purchase, and must call it our Father's gift to us.

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. Romans 10:9-10

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:12
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 11:03 AM by Tail Gunner.)
06-20-2019 11:00 AM
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Post: #892
RE: The God pill
^^^all posts above made good points. My $0.02's:

I find it harder to NOT believe than to believe.

It's like the concept of the invisible hand/omnipotent being is built-in to our brains---it's instinctive (it's quite crafty of Him to "reveal" himself like this).

Notice how you have to consciously rationalize why "He doesn't exist" rather than the opposite?

Even children who can't read or write yet can easily grasp the idea of a God and the afterlife. There is not much convincing needed; no scientific method to present.

We have the reptilian brain, the mammalian brain, and then, we also have...

The God Brain.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 11:13 AM by alchemical.)
06-20-2019 11:03 AM
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Post: #893
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 05:09 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  Why should anyone believe that Jesus existed, and is who he said he was, and did what he supposedly did?

If a low IQ person who just follows what they've always known and been told, says that they believe in Jesus, do they really believe? On what basis do they believe?

If a high IQ person who has put a lot of time into thinking thoroughly about it comes to the opinion that it's not true, why is that bad?

What if someone decides that they don't have any problem with it being true and they decide to go along with it just to keep an open mind but they don't feel strongly about it, does that person really believe?

Where do you draw the line between not believing and believing? What does it mean to believe? What if you decide to make a choice to believe just in case it's true?

It's one thing to say believe, but what does it actually mean?

You could try thinking about what faith means in other settings and other relationships.

What does it mean to believe in a person?

Say you believe a friend of yours is a good guy.

And he gets accused of sexual assault.

Would you stand by him? Do you have enough faith in him to take a stand?

It seems like spirituality can become an abstract exercise that for some reason exists outside normal everyday practical considerations.

It might be possible to answer your questions if you thought about Jesus in a simple, practical, everyday way, like any other guy.

Same goes for faith. What is it, for you, on a practical level, and how do you apply it?

Dogs are low IQ. They believe in their masters' basic goodness. Does that make their love less valuable than your girlfriend who only kind of believes in you?

Assuming that is that your girl is smarter than your dog.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 11:11 AM by debeguiled.)
06-20-2019 11:10 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #894
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 11:03 AM)alchemical Wrote:  ^^^all posts above made good points. My $0.02's:

I find it harder to NOT believe than to believe.

It's like the concept of the invisible hand/omnipotent being is built-in to our brains---it's instinctive (it's quite crafty of Him to "reveal" himself like this).

Notice how you have to consciously rationalize why "He doesn't exist" rather than the opposite?

Even children who can't read or write yet can easily grasp the idea of a God and the afterlife.

We have the reptilian brain, the mammalian brain, and then, we also have...

The God Brain.

There is a very scriptural reason for your supposition. Every human being in the world has an inborn knowledge of God and his law.

Romans 2:14: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law" -- meaning the law of Moses. "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them." Romans 2:15

Everyone has enough knowledge of the moral law of God in their hearts by virtue of being created in God’s image so that their consciences are conflicted when doing evil.
06-20-2019 11:16 AM
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Post: #895
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 10:25 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  What if someone says that Santa Claus is the son of God and I should believe in him?

Don't believe something because someone says so. Read Scripture and pray instead.

(06-20-2019 11:03 AM)alchemical Wrote:  Notice how you have to consciously rationalize why "He doesn't exist" rather than the opposite?

It is required to listen to the devil to get convinced by the non-existence of the almighty God.
06-20-2019 11:38 AM
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Post: #896
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 11:16 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  There is a very scriptural reason for your supposition. Every human being in the world has an inborn knowledge of God and his law.

Romans 2:14: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law" -- meaning the law of Moses. "They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them." Romans 2:15

Everyone has enough knowledge of the moral law of God in their hearts by virtue of being created in God’s image so that their consciences are conflicted when doing evil.

And when Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, we inherited their curse and also this knowledge---which became our conscience (how does evolutionary psychology explain "conscience?" [altruism is a different beast]).
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 11:54 AM by alchemical.)
06-20-2019 11:39 AM
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Post: #897
RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 10:25 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  Should belief be based on simple ignorance and naivety?

This is what makes people jump from sect to sect as if they were bar-hopping.

Childlike Innocence is what is really sought from us.

Matthew 18:3-4
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

This is achievable even by the high IQ and learned folk. I think it has more to do with humility (and submission to His Will) than de-knowledging oneself. I know that I know nothing --Plato.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 01:06 PM by alchemical.)
06-20-2019 12:19 PM
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Post: #898
RE: The God pill
The "high IQ intellectual" that reasoned to God is in danger of also reasoning himself away from God.

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths."

The people that say "I used to be a Christian" were never Christians because if God is Lord of your reasoning you can't reason yourself out of that.
It makes no sense to say "I used to love fishing with my dad, but now I don't think he exists".
06-20-2019 04:20 PM
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RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 04:20 PM)Sooth Wrote:  The "high IQ intellectual" that reasoned to God is in danger of also reasoning himself away from God.

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths."

The people that say "I used to be a Christian" were never Christians because if God is Lord of your reasoning you can't reason yourself out of that.
It makes no sense to say "I used to love fishing with my dad, but now I don't think he exists".

I take it He doesn't want a bunch of overthinkers in heaven. The thing is, at the other extreme, does He want people to say that they believe even if they don't quite feel convinced? Is that good enough? I don't want to be one of those people who thinks in a way that they think is ok when it's not. The reason why I ask this question is because I want to get it right. I don't want to live my life thinking everything is cool, only to some day hear the dreaded words "Depart from me, I never knew you".

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

http://inspiredentrepreneur.weebly.com/
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 06:11 PM by Vladimir Poontang.)
06-20-2019 06:03 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: The God pill
(06-20-2019 06:03 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  
(06-20-2019 04:20 PM)Sooth Wrote:  The "high IQ intellectual" that reasoned to God is in danger of also reasoning himself away from God.

Proverbs 3:5-6 - "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths."

The people that say "I used to be a Christian" were never Christians because if God is Lord of your reasoning you can't reason yourself out of that.
It makes no sense to say "I used to love fishing with my dad, but now I don't think he exists".

I take it He doesn't want a bunch of overthinkers in heaven. The thing is, at the other extreme, does He want people to say that they believe even if they don't quite feel convinced? Is that good enough? I don't want to be one of those people who thinks in a way that they think is ok when it's not. The reason why I ask this question is because I want to get it right. I don't want to live my life thinking everything is cool, only to some day hear the dreaded words "Depart from me, I never knew you".

You cannot think in heaven. It is way too noisy.

Quote:And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:8 KJV
06-20-2019 06:13 PM
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