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Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
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Que enspastic Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Same as Romania, they basically just trouser the EU development funds.

Does the EU care ?

Surely they could give poorer dodgier countries funds but on condition the work is led by Dutch, German or Swiss types who have a good track record of low corruption and good return on investment. These firms could oversee the Hungarian or Romanian workers so the target country gets the benefits of employment and skills transfer and corruption isn’t an issue.

I’m probably just naive as that’s not how it works in the real world

Edit : looks what’s coming into action 2020
https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/policy/e...secutor_en

Also : Hungary is not signed up
https://emerging-europe.com/news/new-pol...rs-office/
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 04:54 PM by Que enspastic.)
05-14-2019 04:48 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-13-2019 04:54 PM)nice Wrote:  Lol to earlier replies... You dont't know anything to be honest. I lived there for few years. The main reason that you don't see the country you visited thoroughly because you live in kind of isolated from the realities of the country you visited. You rent your flat in good area, you eat at good places, you go to best barbers, best pubs/clubs/bars etc. because the money you make at home is a fortune in budapest. Therefore, you don't truly realize whats going on.

Actually, if you compare budapest with more western cities, even with prague, you can see that its much more dirtier, much more beggars,really really more, much more bad smell in streets or in transportation etc. So long story short budapest is really a poor city, also hungary logically. Educated hungarians go to other countries to work because salaries are bad, health care is not good too, economy is not good in general etc.

To sum up, yeah budapest is beautiful city but not so much to offer in long run unless you havent been in other big cities but also its not rich as you mentioned.

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05-14-2019 08:34 PM
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Polero Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Soros is Hungarian, yeah. He owned the Central European University in central BP but had a lot of issues https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/o...of-hungary

While I love Budapest and have been there many times, plus lived there for a year, I think we're all talking about the area with all the amazing landmarks. Most of the suburbs are horrible commie blocks with tiny apartments. Nothing to do there and nothing to see. There's also the district 8 where Keleti train station is, all that area is filled with undesirables and a lot of shit goes down there at night.

One more thing, Hungarians are very proud of their history and of Budapest. I must have heard a million times over there how their country used to be bigger and more powerful before WWI, how they got screwed over at the Trianon treaty and all that. They always forget they allied themselves with the losing side in both world wars so yeah, they got fucked over afterwards. There were even Hungarian troops at the battle of Stalingrad. While Hungarians they do move to richer countries in Europe, they still feel very proud of their country and history, so I think as a population they all want BP to look great.
05-14-2019 09:21 PM
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Heart Break Kid Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Also, this passive aggressiveness toward immigrants is weak, and rather illogical. Budapest is pretty looking because it has white immigrants and not African? Then why is it poor? Is it because it has white immigrants and not Africans? That statement makes as much sense as the former - which is to say, it doesn't make much sense.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2019 10:24 PM by Heart Break Kid.)
05-14-2019 10:23 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-14-2019 10:23 PM)Heart Break Kid Wrote:  Also, this passive aggressiveness toward immigrants is weak, and rather illogical. Budapest is pretty looking because it has white immigrants and not African? Then why is it poor? Is it because it has white immigrants and not Africans? That statement makes as much sense as the former - which is to say, it doesn't make much sense.

Actually, it is your argument that is illogical. Obviously, Hungary is relatively poor because of forty years of communism. Can you name a single FSU or former Warsaw Pact nation that is as wealthy as Western European nations? Even the former East Germany area is still relatively poor compared to the former West Germany area.

You are correct about one thing, passive aggressiveness toward third-world immigrantion is weak. European nations should be aggressively active against immigration from third-world countries, especially forced immigration hatched by EU technocrats. Cultural suicide is not an admirable quality.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 12:06 AM by Tail Gunner.)
05-15-2019 12:02 AM
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RawGod Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-14-2019 04:48 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  Same as Romania, they basically just trouser the EU development funds.

Maybe. But Bucharest is generally seen as a grimy and nasty place, unlike Budapest. I guess this thread is asking why.

Some EE places like Romania and Moldova have horrible public spaces, and nothing works properly.

Some like Hungary, Belarus (the latter very poor), are pretty clean and efficient.

Ukraine in-between.

All are "white".

So what causes the differences?

Corruption is certainly one thing. I would say it's off the charts in places like Romania and Bulgaria, and moderate in Hungary. Just my non-expert impression.

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05-15-2019 12:04 AM
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The Black Knight Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-13-2019 02:18 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  This is my second time in five years visiting Budapest and I'm floored by how clean, beautiful, artistically dynamic and well run the city appears to be.

Architecture - stunning, varied, rich
High culture - plenty of museums, numerous ground breaking contributions to mathematics
River - clean, not full of shit, superlative bridges
Bags of trash on street - minimal
Begging - minimal, passive in nature
Menacing gangs of thugs - not overtly visible in public spaces
Public transport - underground, trams, buses, regular shuttle buses to airports
Clubs - no random violence, chill atmosphere
Obesity - low, mostly tourists and old grandmas in their 70s
Heroin junkies - not visible
Dog shit - not visible
Locals - shitty Eastern European customer service and suffering depression but educated polyglots with a capacity for hard work

The average wages here are 700 EUR pm at most, so this is a poor city by Western standards.
Compare that to Dublin where wages are around 2500 EUR pm (let's say x 3.5) it's striking that Budapest appears so much wealthier (visually) on all of these measures above but actually is not.

I appreciate Budapest was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and a dual capital but also under the yolk of the Ottoman Empire before that and bombed to shit after that during WW2 and then controlled by the Soviets so doesn't appear to have had the easiest of runs.

Any insight?

Is Budapest the richest looking "poor city" you've seen? Who else is a contender?

I've been warming up to Hungary lately but fuck me, NO DOGSHIT?!

Not even joking... I'm so fucking sick and tired of having to constantly look at the ground in many areas of America. Dogshit everywhere; including on sidewalks. Seems like EVERYONE has a dog now but don't understand that urban life and dogs don't really mix.

I fully support DNA testing for dogshit and taking people's dogs away if they have multiple violations. Harsh but dogshit is a legit public health issue as well as a quality life thing. Want to go run in a grass field somewhere? I now have to inspect the entire fucking field before doing so because there is almost ALWAYS some old shit laying around somewhere.

But good luck getting narcissistic dog owners in America to deal with the problem. They treat their dogs like children now all the while Orban is paying women to stay home and pump out kids. That basically tells you everything you need to know about America in 2019 and its priorities compared to other parts of the world.

Dogs are awesome but many dog owners are straight up dipshits of the highest order.

Rant over.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 01:07 AM by The Black Knight.)
05-15-2019 12:54 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Budapest is one of my favourite cities in the world, beautiful architecture, but also a dark creepy vibe which I rather like. I have considered making it a base many times, but decided against it because other EE countries give much more in terms of women, especially if you are a bit older. Also the sheer amount of tourists would do my head in. Had some great sexual experiences there, Hungarians are the filthiest Europeans I have ever come across.
05-15-2019 04:01 AM
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ksbms Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
I'm as well toying with the idea of 7-10 days in Budapest, especially the flights from Berlin to there cost peanuts. Which months the experts believe are best for sweet love making?

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05-15-2019 06:14 AM
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HD668B Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-14-2019 06:03 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Joined the EU in 2004. Inflows of EU development money and investment.

And when did France or Germany joined EU? tard
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 07:53 AM by HD668B.)
05-15-2019 07:53 AM
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RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
France and Germany? They've never joined EU...

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05-15-2019 08:49 AM
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Que enspastic Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Keep on track.

I read today that the way productivity is measured, Eastern Europeans doing the same job as Western Europeans get measured as lower productivity in an economic sense due to lower value of goods even if they are more efficient in terms of assembly line productivity of goods

That gets reflected in lower wages
05-15-2019 09:06 AM
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Que enspastic Offline
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RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
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(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 09:47 AM by Que enspastic.)
05-15-2019 09:46 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Budapest used to be the jewel of central/eastern Europe, with its sister city, Vienna. They were incredibly wealthy and cosmopolitan---the epicenter of art and cafe salon-culture, in addition to being a place in eastern Europe where Jews were not second-class citizens---before the West decided to destroy itself in the First World War. You have the remaining edifices from this Golden Age, which have been mostly restored since Communism fell, and which attract foreign dollars via tourism. In addition, its location and the relative stability of its government has continuously attracted significant foreign investment since the 90s.

That being said, the country is still poor relative to Western Europe and quite poor relative to the United States (https://fee.org/articles/most-of-europe-...ed-states/) ---two wars and a 40-year period of no growth certainly did not help. Countries such as Estonia, Czech, and Poland have done significantly more liberalization of their economies in the last 25 years, whereas Hungary is more socialist/state-controlled by comparison and has probably stagnated on the economic-liberalization front. Peoples' incomes are quite low, and most people cannot afford to live in lavish Budapest. Furthermore, about 200,000 of Hungary's best and brightest (including my step-father, a surgeon) left in 1956 when the Soviet tanks crushed the uprising, and more trickled out of the country later (my father, a computer programmer, also left in the 60s. Mother, who speaks 5 languages, left in the 70s). Brain drains always exact a significant toll on the progress of the mother country.

Multinational companies like Hungary because the workforce is comparatively high-IQ/competent at English and they can pay them significantly less. With increased foreign investment, the wages are going up, but these things take time. (Of course, at that point the foreign investment in those sectors of the economy will tend to dry up.)

Orban, while excellent on the immigration issue, has funneled significant EU money to revitalizing Budapest and to (likely) enriching his Fidesz friends with public works projects (the proliferation of stadiums being the favorite talking-point here). I find it pretty funny when he stands up there and derides the EU and yet they continue to transfer such significant money to the country. Junker calls him a dictator, but those couple points of GDP keep flowing from the Western European suckling pigs unabated, for now.

tl;dr - Public sector is too big and crowds out the private economy; regulatory and tax environment worse than other EE countries, but still cheaper than Western Europe; brain drain which slows the amelioration of conditions in the country; significant public investment in public works in Budapest and elsewhere stir national pride and get politicians re-elected and are thus pursued; with a large gov't and EU capital inflows, corruption is an albatross on growth; wars and 40 years of Communism have meant there's a lot of catch-up to do in terms of wealth creation.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 01:30 PM by soviet_dissident.)
05-15-2019 01:15 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 01:15 PM)soviet_dissident Wrote:  Multinational companies like Hungary because the workforce is comparatively high-IQ/competent at English and they can pay them significantly less. With increased foreign investment, the wages are going up, but these things take time. (Of course, at that point the foreign investment in those sectors of the economy will tend to dry up.)

with a large gov't and EU capital inflows, corruption is an albatross on growth; wars and 40 years of Communism have meant there's a lot of catch-up to do in terms of wealth creation.

Hungary is definitely headed in the right direction with a corporate income tax rate of only 9% and a personal income tax rate of only 15%, with capital gains, dividends, interest, and rental income all generally taxed at that standard rate. This will spur savings, investment, and growth.

It sounds as if a large heavy-handed government (this seems to be a plague everywhere) and corruption are the real drags on the economy.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 02:03 PM by Tail Gunner.)
05-15-2019 02:00 PM
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Post: #41
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-14-2019 07:42 AM)Trumpian Wrote:  It's a primate city which has the overwhelming majority of the nation's wealth. When a country only has one big city, it's pretty easy to making things look pretty.
Debrecen, the 2nd largest city has like 200k people.

But being white and xenophobic helps a lot as well.

Then why are places like Moldova as shitty as they are?
05-15-2019 02:23 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 02:23 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 07:42 AM)Trumpian Wrote:  It's a primate city which has the overwhelming majority of the nation's wealth. When a country only has one big city, it's pretty easy to making things look pretty.
Debrecen, the 2nd largest city has like 200k people.

But being white and xenophobic helps a lot as well.

Then why are places like Moldova as shitty as they are?

Compared to what? Anywhere in Europe is better than almost anywhere in Africa or the Middle East.

How many people in Moldova wish to move to Africa or the Middle East?
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 03:28 PM by Tail Gunner.)
05-15-2019 03:26 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
^From what I gather a lot of women from that part of the world either move to Western Europe to work as domestic help or to countries like Turkey to work as hookers. Which makes sense, as even Turkey is economically stronger and more prosperous than places like Moldova (or other white paradises like Macedonia, Bulgaria, or Kosovo).

Let's be real, most people on the planet would not want to live in places like this unless they're escaping civil war and/or genocide.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 04:00 PM by Klan Killer.)
05-15-2019 03:32 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 03:26 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 02:23 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 07:42 AM)Trumpian Wrote:  It's a primate city which has the overwhelming majority of the nation's wealth. When a country only has one big city, it's pretty easy to making things look pretty.
Debrecen, the 2nd largest city has like 200k people.

But being white and xenophobic helps a lot as well.

Then why are places like Moldova as shitty as they are?

Compared to what? Anywhere in Europe is better than almost anywhere in Africa or the Middle East.

How many people in Moldova wish to move to Africa or the Middle East?

Saudi, Yemen, Qatar, Dubai (UAE) have a much higher standard of living than EE.

Keep it real.

No one here wants to move to Hungary and earn local wages.

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05-15-2019 03:41 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 03:41 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Saudi, Yemen, Qatar, Dubai (UAE) have a much higher standard of living than EE.

Keep it real.

No one here wants to move to Hungary and earn local wages.

Yemen?? Are you serious? One of the poorest countries in world. Currently experiencing mass famine.

The other oil-rich arabian countries can be decent if you work for western multi-national companies and live in gated communities. And don't mind the heat and pollution. But most foreigners there are migrant workers earning slave wages, much lower than Hungary. For the typical person, Budapest is a far superior place to live.
05-15-2019 04:08 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 03:41 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 03:26 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(05-15-2019 02:23 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  
(05-14-2019 07:42 AM)Trumpian Wrote:  It's a primate city which has the overwhelming majority of the nation's wealth. When a country only has one big city, it's pretty easy to making things look pretty.
Debrecen, the 2nd largest city has like 200k people.

But being white and xenophobic helps a lot as well.

Then why are places like Moldova as shitty as they are?

Compared to what? Anywhere in Europe is better than almost anywhere in Africa or the Middle East.

How many people in Moldova wish to move to Africa or the Middle East?

Saudi, Yemen, Qatar, Dubai (UAE) have a much higher standard of living than EE.

Keep it real.

No one here wants to move to Hungary and earn local wages.

Sure, change the topic. Who the hell is talking about forum members moving anywhere for local wages?

No one moves permanently to Saudi, Yemen, Qatar, or Dubai (UAE). Expats grab their money and then they get out. You cannot really become a citizen. In the case of Dubai, you must live and work in the UAE continuously for up to 30 years before your application will even be considered. You will always be a second-class citizen.

In short, most Arab countries have the same serious restrictions on residency and citizenship that all European countries should have in place.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 04:14 PM by Tail Gunner.)
05-15-2019 04:11 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
I think rude meant Oman, which is actually a lot richer and probably has a higher standard of living than many EE countries.

Yemen was always poor but is a war-torn hellhole thanks Saudi Arabia wrecking it with bombs they bought from the US.

There's more opportunity in large parts of Asia (India, China, and obviously Japan/Korea) than there is in a lot of EE. I'd take Thailand or Malaysia over a place like Moldova any day.

I don't see forum members going over to EE to work and live like a gopnik would. If we're being real they purely go there for pussy. Not for the quality of living, the job opportunities, or the infrastructure (with exceptions like Poland), they're just going there to get laid.

There's a very good reason why almost no one is immigrating into EE while millions of people are leaving EE for ironically much more multicultural places like London or Paris.

Lol @ being a second class citizen in Dubai. Sure, you can't vote. You also don't pay any income tax and can make money hand over fist, live a way better lifestyle than in the states, and have a cook, cleaner, and driver without a problem. I know plenty of foreigners who are in this situation (Americans and Indians mostly). Locals get massive welfare and benefits for sure, but it's better to be upper middle-class in the Gulf than it is to be upper middle-class in a crap hole like Moldova.

Local wages and the economy are important for determining how nice a country is to live in, long term. And how developed it is. The Gulf objectively beats out large parts of EE for earning potential and economic opportunity. Same goes for places like Singapore or Kuala Lumpur.

Some of these posts crack me up. Like any of you would rather live long term in a shitty third-tier city in Siberia than you would in a place like Dubai.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 04:19 PM by Klan Killer.)
05-15-2019 04:12 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
When was the last time you were in Budapest?

The point of this thread, is that the country is poor.

It that up for debate?

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05-15-2019 04:13 PM
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RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
Analysis from Martin Myant at the European Trade Union Institute :

Lower wages in Central and Eastern Europe are the result of past policies and of the weak bargaining power of labour.

Multinational companies benefit directly by making higher profits but also indirectly by reducing the prices of outsourced products.

They transfer production mostly of cheaper products, retaining the most expensive in higher-wage countries.

As a result, productivity is measured as lower where wages are lower, even in cases where production processes are the same.

Without an increase in wages, accompanied by a more general shift in economic strategy, the countries of central and eastern Europe will remain in a 'middle-income trap', never able to converge to the western European level



A key point is that wages are not closely linked to labour productivity. This is contrary to what is predicted in standard economic theory and also calls into question policy advice that wages should only rise when preceded by a productivity increase.

The four countries of the Visegrad Group: Czechia, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia. They are at very similar economic levels and have similar nominal wage levels at roughly one third that of Germany.

Wages in foreign-owned companies are not determined by the productivity of the employees. That cannot be the case when some profit levels are so high and when, as argued above in relation to a number of products, measured productivity is often low because of low wages rather than the converse.

Instead, in the first instance, MNCs take the wage levels they find. These have been determined by these countries’ past histories and reflect a going rate in the economy at the time, set at first by domestic employers and then increasingly by other MNCs. The latter may pay slightly more, to attract and retain a stable labour force. They may also face upward pressure on pay levels from market conditions or from labour's bargaining strength, but both are limited.

As they do not choose to transfer production that requires large numbers of the most qualified workers – and this is a good reason for not doing so – specific labour shortages have remained manageable.

Labour’s bargaining power is significantly weakened by the power of an employer with multiple plants. Threats to transfer production, to concentrate investment elsewhere or, ultimately, to close a plant in total, figure persistently as a background to collective bargaining, encouraging moderation from employees.


There is no strong incentive for MNCs to move their most complex activities to CEECs. There are solid reasons for why these remain in the higher-wage countries. Moving carries a financial cost particularly where large capital investment has been made. There would also be political and reputational costs and a skilled labour force would be harder to attract where wage levels and social service provision are lower.

It therefore makes most sense for an MNC to keep activities that require higher-paid personnel in countries where the pay is higher.

The implication is that this form of dependency sets limits to catching up with western Europe. CEECs are left some way behind, and even threatened with further instability as MNCs may move on to still lower-wage countries.

Using the typology of Porter's ‘stages of competitiveness’ (Porter 1990), they do not move into the 'innovation-driven' stage. Innovation almost always comes from the outside, embodied in products and processes designed elsewhere. CEECs are always followers, using established methods and technologies and never leading with the newest.

They are left in a 'middle-income trap', holding down wages to make themselves attractive to MNCs, but in turn leaving themselves unattractive to the higher-level activities that would raise their economies to the western European level.

https://www.etui.org/content/download/33...01-WEB.pdf
05-15-2019 05:09 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Why is Budapest so poor but looks so rich?
(05-15-2019 04:13 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  The point of this thread, is that the country is poor.

It that up for debate?

If you use the dictionary definition of "poor" (poverty-stricken; impoverished), then of course it is not up for debate. Hungary is clearly not poor. Its GDP per capita is ten times as great as the GDP per capita of truly poor countries (e.g., those in most of Africa).

The problem is that too many people throw around words without any thought or precision. Clearly, after forty years of communism the economies of EE are not as well-developed as those of Western Europe -- and that makes them relatively poor by comparison. But that does not make them poor, in fact.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2019 05:26 PM by Tail Gunner.)
05-15-2019 05:22 PM
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