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First time DL frustration.
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Nick98 Offline
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Post: #1
First time DL frustration.
You could skip the background, If you have got no much time.
Background:
Height: 183 cm. Weight:89.3 kgs. Age:20 years. Level: Beginner.
I'm a beginner because I've been to the gym inconsistently from over 3 years when I was 17. But now I've signed in this gym next to my home and went for 4 days with my coach to test my muscles power and that was the results:
Weak Hamstrings , Weak Back, Strong Quads, Strong Flat bench, Weak Incline bench.
Have some kind of scoliosis in my spine that should be fixed with stretching the part where the spine is turning, and developing muscles for the other Right part of the back. I've no issues with day to day activities , and I have got no injuries, but I'm overall weak despite having 34% of muscles in my body which is above average according to the test I've done.
I've lurked around the internet and found tons of different programs for beginners, one of them was called PULL , PUSH ,LEGS. I've read a lot and watched a ton of videos , and chose that program according to 2 things : My goal and the reviews.
This program focuses on building strength at the first exercise performing , dead lifts , squats or whatever, and the other parts is doing isolating movements like Hammer curls , Biceps Curls etc.. Which exactly what I want in my body, More strength and more muscles. Not lots of strength with no muscles or vice versa. I've read that Building Strength and Building Muscles are both different things and according to your goals you choose what program suits you.
I've read a lot about the importance of compound movements even if you are a beginner, And I've Read a thread on here that discourages you for doing dead lifts because they may injure you, but the benefits I've read for compound movements far outweigh the disadvantages for doing them , so I've made up my mind. I'm going to follow this program that is directed for beginners, and I'm going to do the dead lifts ,Squats whatever other exercises that will make me stronger and bigger.
CHOOSING SUMO OR CONVENTIONAL.
I've decided after watching tons of videos to do the sumo DL instead of the conventional , because I've a weak lower back, and it was mentioned that the conventional is more risky for your lower back . SO I started practicing that movement in home during my resting days , and read a lot of threads here, watched tons of videos and filmed myself doing the sumo with no weight, It looked like i'm doing it right. Legs in the right positions Hips going backward, Flexing my Quads like power lifters, Pushing with my legs , thighs, hips to the ground to generate that force and lift the bar up , imagining it's there. And Imagining how much strength I'm going to gain 2 months from now after learning to do the right form during the next weeks.
THE STORY:

For those who have cut the first part , it's okay here is why I posted this thread, and here is what happened.
I went to the gym as a beginner following the beginner PPL Routine.
1x5+ Deadlifts is my first exercise , I preferred to perform it sumo.
I went to the gym coach and told him " I want you to help me work on the proper form of dead lift" He agreed.
I asked him to show me how he performed the dead lift and he had showed me.
I've put 10 kgs on each side of the bar. And started doing the movement in a really sloppy form, But hey.. I'm training for the first time to do what is said to be one of the most hardest movements to perform.
After my first try pulling the 40 kgs here is what he said.
"TO be honest, You shouldn't be doing this movement. I've told you how to do it , and you are doing it wrong , you've a kyphosis back when you pull the weight, you don't do the proper form correctly , you are still a beginner, you shouldn't be doing this , that's not the right time for it , you first develop your muscles , hamstrings, quads, core, arms, be in the gym for a while and after that learn how to perform this movement"
After he said this , I got frustrated a little bit , neglecting this compound movement from my program , shifts the program to a whole different direction , I was going to disagree with him and INSIST on teaching me how to perform the movement with trial and error but at the same moment , I've remembered a thread over here advising to not do the dead lift until after 2 years of lifting , and so , and so. So I agreed and amplified, Skipped the dead lift and did the rest of the other exercises. I asked him if the same thing goes for squats, He disagreed, and offered to help me during my leg day.
Me thinking outside of the gym after performing the workout:
If I could turn back the time , I would have insisted that I keep doing the movement and he corrects me until I get the proper form , I think everyone has a point when he should learn and the program I've chosen was directed to beginners, so it made sense to do this movement, or at least keep learning to improving your form and then I could add the weight later.

Frustrated as hell that I didn't do the dead lift today. And I want your thoughts guys , Should I find a different Coach to teach me how to perform the dead lift . Or should I completely ignore it , And ignore the benefits of compound movements , and throw the whole program of PPLRPPL to the trash, and find a different program.


Sorry for holding you guys for so long , but any advise from you fellow deadlifters will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 12:37 PM by Nick98.)
06-19-2019 12:23 PM
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Repo Online
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Post: #2
RE: First time DL frustration.
You said it youself you had sloppy form with almost no weight on the bar. You dont have the flexibility or core strength to perform the movement, so dont do it until you do. If you really want to, practice deadlifting just the bar until your form is perfect. You can set your phone up to take a video of yourself for that, and shouldnt need a coach for that.

Imagine you were a driving instructor and your student crashed the car before getting out of the parking lot. Sure you could continue training that person, but the coach probably decided you need to get back to the classroom.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 12:40 PM by Repo.)
06-19-2019 12:39 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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RE: First time DL frustration.
(06-19-2019 12:39 PM)Repo Wrote:  You said it youself you had sloppy form with almost no weight on the bar. You dont have the flexibility or core strength to perform the movement, so dont do it until you do. If you really want to, practice deadlifting just the bar until your form is perfect. You can set your phone up to take a video of yourself for that, and shouldnt need a coach for that.

Imagine you were a driving instructor and your student crashed the car before getting out of the parking lot. Sure you could continue training that person, but the coach probably decided you need to get back to the classroom.

Repo , thanks for joining in and posting here.
Since I've got no flexibility or core strength to perform the movement.
What program would you suggest me to start doing?
My Goal: Gaining muscles , Not loosing fat, and be stronger.
Be aware that the coach is only here in the gym to correct the lifting mistakes , He doesn't give a program.
If you have a program that you could direct it to me , that would be greatly appreciated. I want to go to the gym 5x or 6x times a week since I've got a lot of free time. It would be wiser to choose a program with squats/bench press. And Other movements that could BOOST my flexibility/core strength to be able to dead lift in the future.


Thanks in advance.
06-19-2019 01:02 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: First time DL frustration.
For future Replies.
If you're going to agree with what the coach said , please suggest another program for me to follow that would be suitable for my goal.
-My goal: Building muscles , not loosing fat, and be stronger.
-5x or 6x program since I've got a lot of free time.
If you're going to disagree with what the coach said , please advise me on what's the next step I should take.

Hats off for all you fellow power lifters that are willing to join in.
06-19-2019 01:08 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: First time DL frustration.
That's the program I'm currently on. If you agree with the coach to not do DLS. What is the alternative?

PULL
Deadlifts 1x5+/Barbell rows 4x5, 1x5+ (alternate, so if you did deadlifts on Monday, you would do rows on Thursday, and so on)
3x8-12 Pulldowns OR Pullups OR chinups
3x8-12 seated cable rows OR chest supported rows
5x15-20 face pulls
4x8-12 hammer curls
4x8-12 dumbbell curls
PUSH
4x5, 1x5+ bench press/4x5, 1x5+ overhead press (alternate in the same fashion as the rows and deadlifts)
3x8-12 overhead press/3x8-12 bench press (do the opposite movement: if you bench pressed first, overhead press here)
3x8-12 incline dumbbell press
3x8-12 triceps pushdowns SS 3x15-20 lateral raises
3x8-12 overhead triceps extensions SS 3x15-20 lateral raises
LEGS
2x5, 1x5+ squat
3x8-12 Romanian Deadlift
3x8-12 leg press
3x8-12 leg curls
5x8-12 calf raises
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 01:12 PM by Nick98.)
06-19-2019 01:11 PM
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Kieran Offline
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Post: #6
RE: First time DL frustration.
I wouldn't choose sumo for a beginner as it's just not enough of a hinge movement. If you have lower back issues then I'd suggest just pulling conventional off 4 inch blocks. Should be enough to allow you to easily maintain a neutral spine, but still leave enough range of motion to be beneficial. If you don't have blocks then just use plates. If that's still problematic then go for high handle trap bar deadlifts as this is probably the easiest of the variations to learn to do safely (and will still be more of a hinge than a sumo deadlift).
06-19-2019 01:11 PM
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Post: #7
RE: First time DL frustration.
Seconding Repo’s advice, start with the bar and just work on getting the movement down, squeezing glutes, etc.

You can use blocks to simulate the proper height for a standard deadlift until you’re able to use 45 lb plates.
06-19-2019 01:11 PM
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Repo Online
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Post: #8
RE: First time DL frustration.
You picked good programs, you just arent quite ready to start them yet. I would continue to practice with just the bar, and be super critical of youself.

Also, do stretches each day. For core strength you can do planks, hanging leg raises, and back extensions. Dont use being a beginner as an excuse to break form on anything, force youself to have a straight back. Going ass to grass on a bodyweight squat with a wall behind you can be a good stretch, push your back up against the wall at the bottom so it is forced to be perfectly straight. It really shouldnt take more than 2-3 weeks before you have the core strength to do weighted deadlifts, unless if you really have terrible form. I think more people have problems squatting correctly than deadlifts actually. Its just squats are an easier excercise to think your doing them right when your actually not. Deadlifts you pretty much feel it right away if your messing up.

And I wouldnt replace deadlifts with anything. Use that time practicing them, and in a couple weeks you should be fine to do them. Any substitute like hip thrusters you would probably have the same problems.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 01:36 PM by Repo.)
06-19-2019 01:33 PM
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flanders Offline
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Post: #9
RE: First time DL frustration.
I don't understand what causes kyphosis and my guess is nobody else here does either. It's possible your scaps are basically frozen in place so doing some machine rows with a full paused contraction (not much weight needed) to get your rhomboids and serratus working properly might adjust your spine significantly.

My gut tells me you should hammer front squats in the 4-6 rep range (ten sets or so) until you hammer out that kyphosis since you won't even be able to hold the bar if your thoracic spine isn't extended. You could also buy a kettlebell or dumbbell and hit goblet squats until you fix your mobility/muscle imbalance problems. It shouldn't take long since the goblet squat has a very strong mobility component. If you can't do a regular ATG bodyweight squat then do those until you can do 100 in one or two sets.

You should probably smash regular hypers and reverse hypers in a 25x4 or 20x5 rep scheme for awhile as well.

From there you should have enough of a base of mobility and strength to deadlift without a problem.

Stay far the hell away from sumo since it's just going to worsen or ignore problems you already have.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 02:03 PM by flanders.)
06-19-2019 01:59 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: First time DL frustration.
Thanks for your advice guys Kirean , Acftw , Repo
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 02:20 PM by Nick98.)
06-19-2019 02:11 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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RE: First time DL frustration.
(06-19-2019 01:59 PM)flanders Wrote:  I don't understand what causes kyphosis and my guess is nobody else here does either. It's possible your scaps are basically frozen in place so doing some machine rows with a full paused contraction (not much weight needed) to get your rhomboids and serratus working properly might adjust your spine significantly.

My gut tells me you should hammer front squats in the 4-6 rep range (ten sets or so) until you hammer out that kyphosis since you won't even be able to hold the bar if your thoracic spine isn't extended. You could also buy a kettlebell or dumbbell and hit goblet squats until you fix your mobility/muscle imbalance problems. It shouldn't take long since the goblet squat has a very strong mobility component. If you can't do a regular ATG bodyweight squat then do those until you can do 100 in one or two sets.

You should probably smash regular hypers and reverse hypers in a 25x4 or 20x5 rep scheme for awhile as well.

From there you should have enough of a base of mobility and strength to deadlift without a problem.

Stay far the hell away from sumo since it's just going to worsen or ignore problems you already have.

"It shouldn't take long since the goblet squat has a very strong mobility component." Good news.

That's a lot of value dropping here , thanks for giving me the time.

Now , Given your advice .

How Would you add those exercises in the program listed above ?
06-19-2019 02:15 PM
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RE: First time DL frustration.
(06-19-2019 02:15 PM)Nick98 Wrote:  
(06-19-2019 01:59 PM)flanders Wrote:  I don't understand what causes kyphosis and my guess is nobody else here does either. It's possible your scaps are basically frozen in place so doing some machine rows with a full paused contraction (not much weight needed) to get your rhomboids and serratus working properly might adjust your spine significantly.

My gut tells me you should hammer front squats in the 4-6 rep range (ten sets or so) until you hammer out that kyphosis since you won't even be able to hold the bar if your thoracic spine isn't extended. You could also buy a kettlebell or dumbbell and hit goblet squats until you fix your mobility/muscle imbalance problems. It shouldn't take long since the goblet squat has a very strong mobility component. If you can't do a regular ATG bodyweight squat then do those until you can do 100 in one or two sets.

You should probably smash regular hypers and reverse hypers in a 25x4 or 20x5 rep scheme for awhile as well.

From there you should have enough of a base of mobility and strength to deadlift without a problem.

Stay far the hell away from sumo since it's just going to worsen or ignore problems you already have.

"It shouldn't take long since the goblet squat has a very strong mobility component." Good news.

That's a lot of value dropping here , thanks for giving me the time.

Now , Given your advice .

How Would you add those exercises in the program listed above ?

Nothing much I listed is intended to tax your recovery (except maybe the hypers) so if you feel OK you can and should do it daily.
I guess doing a hundred body squats in a row could mess you up for a few days but you get used to them rapidly.

If you care a lot about your main lifts then do the lightweight mobility stuff like goblet squats at the beginning and the more taxing movements at the very end. Exercise order matters which is why most serious/elite athletes do two-a-days.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 02:34 PM by flanders.)
06-19-2019 02:32 PM
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kaotic Offline
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Post: #13
RE: First time DL frustration.
If you have sloppy form you should immediately stop.

I wouldn't listen to a trainer saying you have kyphosis, however I would suggest going to a doctor confirm you don't have any issues and you're just a newbie with a weak leg foundation.

Secondly, I wouldn't go with learning Sumo deads first, conventional ones should be learned first.

Also no matter what, you still need strength to be able to build the muscles you want.

But you're putting the cart WAY before the horse here.


Form & Flexibility come first, the scaling weight working up to PR Maxes and Muscle Gains.

You're only 20, so form and flexibility are extremely important at your age because you don't want to screw yourself up and have chronic long term issues.

Flanders and Repo have the right ideas with starting with bodyweight and doing light weight mobility stuff and to work your way up to heavier workouts.

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(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 03:26 PM by kaotic.)
06-19-2019 03:25 PM
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RE: First time DL frustration.
(06-19-2019 03:25 PM)kaotic Wrote:  I wouldn't listen to a trainer saying you have kyphosis, however I would suggest going to a doctor confirm you don't have any issues and you're just a newbie with a weak leg foundation.

I should have elaborated on this. He didn't mean to say it in a way to actually mean I have kyphosis. He said that while I was pulling the barbell , I do it in a sloppy form that it looks like I have kyphosis. I performed a test last week and I don't have Kyphosis but I have Scoliosis, which is a slight bend in the spine.

I bought a new barbell today to practice dead lifts , But I'm not going to use it for now probably saving it for the future.

I Opened that video on youtube that shows you how to do squats , I paused the video and tried to do the movement putting the mirror by my side , I couldn't even get to the bottom position. I laughed at myself and admitted finally that I suck and need much work to get where I want to be.

This month I'm going to hit legs day the hardest , probably doing goblet squats with light weights, saving front squats for later.I'm also probably going to add 2 more exercises , there are those two machines at the gym that targets the adductors and abductors , Correct me if I'm wrong and shouldn't be adding those.

I'm not going to rush the process, probably out of my mind by now. But when I start maybe I'm going to do Trap Bar DLS since they are the safest.

I'm going to perform a test the next month. This test will show how many kilos of lean weight I've gained, and it specify where the muscles grow , the upper or the lower buddy.

To give you a better idea , here's a picture of a test I performed 1 week ago on 12/6/2019.

   

I'm going to post the results in one month, so stay tuned because this thread isn't going to die.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2019 06:30 PM by Nick98.)
06-19-2019 06:26 PM
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Zagor Offline
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RE: First time DL frustration.
I don't understand why he didn't just showed you proper form on the deadlift. If you round your back in a kyphitic like manner, cues like lifting your chest up, bracing your core and taking the slack out of the bar could've done the trick.
06-19-2019 07:01 PM
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Nick98 Offline
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RE: First time DL frustration.
(06-19-2019 07:01 PM)Zagor Wrote:  I don't understand why he didn't just showed you proper form on the deadlift. If you round your back in a kyphitic like manner, cues like lifting your chest up, bracing your core and taking the slack out of the bar could've done the trick.


I believe that part of what he thought is that I'm still a newbie and he thought I might injure myself. Another part is that he might have thought that sumo is a bit odd to be doing for the first time. Anyway, he gave his explanation and the fellow members agreed. Despite me being frustrated about him not giving me the cues , I was at the point of just ignoring what he said completely and start doing it by myself. But at the end, it's all understandable.I should pass some blocks in the gym first in order to get to that point.
06-19-2019 08:13 PM
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kaotic Offline
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Post: #17
RE: First time DL frustration.
If you're worried about weight or just form in general use a mobility stick or a long 1" PVC pipe to warm and worry about your form first.

You can use the for all sorts of movements and stretches.

I'm with Zagor here, sumo dead lifts are a bad idea and should've done proper deadlift form first, and a new trainer at another gym.

Some Crossfit gyms have open squat/dead clinics also, start looking at that as well.

You might have to pay a one time fee, and don't let them sell you on buying a membership.

Those clinics can do wonders.

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06-19-2019 10:54 PM
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RE: First time DL frustration.
Oh I forgot to mention, if you can wear a halloween mask or something to stay anonymous and can post a form check video that could be a big help especially if strikeback can chime in.

Best of luck on future deadlifting endeavors, and don't forget to neglect youtube for newbie guides since there are a lot of them that are worthwhile. Alan Thrall's deadlift guide is pretty good. I've been lifting on and off for a long while and still find plenty of good cues and tips to jot down in my workout log, it's always good practice to learn about things you want to get good at.
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2019 07:56 AM by flanders.)
06-20-2019 07:55 AM
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