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She wants to have the cake and eat it too
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #1
She wants to have the cake and eat it too
It put this into the beginner section, because my game knowledge is essentially from last decade as I dropped out for a long time for my spiritual journey to Christ. Also beside this I have nothing really running in terms of dating currently, initially I didn't plan to this year.

Background: Met girl coincidentally in church two months ago and felt good chemistry. She got attracted and invited me into a small group on weekends. I saw an opportunity to try some social circle game on her just for fun. Due to the context and the 20 years age gap I chose to be the old school gentleman not showing explicit intent and being subtle. After I isolated her from her mother, she revealed incidentally that she is with a BF (who avoids Christianity and therefore church). In my role I had no reason to care and continued building rapport with her.

This lead up to texting, where she occasionally sends me text or voice messages during the week. When I reply (up to 24 hours or not at all) or throw some tidbits of attention randomly, I get reaction times usually within the hour, but recently down to two minutes. Reading her in person combined with this I think I got her on the hook.

Now she is still figuring out, how to keep atheist BF and church gentleman's attention in parallel, because she wants it both: have the cake and eat it too. So I think it's time for me to withdraw and introduce some dread. The primary goal is keeping my dignity, avoid orbiting and making clear that getting my undivided attention is a privilege and comes with conditions.

Any comments?
07-21-2019 09:25 AM
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Dr. Howard Away
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Post: #2
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-21-2019 09:25 AM)wwtl Wrote:  It put this into the beginner section, because my game knowledge is essentially from last decade as I dropped out for a long time for my spiritual journey to Christ. Also beside this I have nothing really running in terms of dating currently, initially I didn't plan to this year.

Background: Met girl coincidentally in church two months ago and felt good chemistry. She got attracted and invited me into a small group on weekends. I saw an opportunity to try some social circle game on her just for fun. Due to the context and the 20 years age gap I chose to be the old school gentleman not showing explicit intent and being subtle. After I isolated her from her mother, she revealed incidentally that she is with a BF (who avoids Christianity and therefore church). In my role I had no reason to care and continued building rapport with her.

This lead up to texting, where she occasionally sends me text or voice messages during the week. When I reply (up to 24 hours or not at all) or throw some tidbits of attention randomly, I get reaction times usually within the hour, but recently down to two minutes. Reading her in person combined with this I think I got her on the hook.

Now she is still figuring out, how to keep atheist BF and church gentleman's attention in parallel, because she wants it both: have the cake and eat it too. So I think it's time for me to withdraw and introduce some dread. The primary goal is keeping my dignity, avoid orbiting and making clear that getting my undivided attention is a privilege and comes with conditions.

Any comments?

i certainly doesn't seem like you have anything to lose by playing hardball. If she has an atheist boyfriend, it probably also means that he doesn't believe in no sex before marriage. So he is either banging her, or getting it elsewhere.

Talk to other women at church, mention to her that you are in your conversation like "Man, that Jane Smith from church sure is on the prowl now that she is single again, she keeps on giving me the 'hints' to ask her to do something outside of church"

Her responses should give you guidance on how she views the relationship between the two of you.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
07-21-2019 11:14 AM
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PapayaTapper Away
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Post: #3
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
A lot of vagueness here but...

Sounds like currently youre just an orbiter providing her some low cost attention and low grade excitement (women thrive on being desired...even if they dont reciprocate).

You cant apply "dread" game because dread (fear) is directly proportional to the amount of girl's investment (desire).

Dread = fear (of loss)

Simply : Very low investment = very low fear of loss

You have an opportunity but you need to make your interest in her more overt. That will either trigger her attraction or not. She might be a Christian woman but she's still a woman. If she's got a BF looking to monkey branch from you need to trigger enough desire in her in order for her to overcome her greater fear: being single

Right now it sounds like you have a higher level of investment / fear than she does. Your fear potential loss "dignity" exceeds your desire for her.

You need to overcome that first.

Make your intentions clear. If she's not interested then you all youve done is pay her the compliment of finding her attractive and you'll have the dignity of knowing you were a man about it.

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
Joseph Campbell
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2019 11:37 AM by PapayaTapper.)
07-21-2019 11:30 AM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #4
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
Thanks for your answers, there are some good suggestions in there, but many aren't applicable in the most degenerate part of Central Europe:

For me no age-appropriate single woman is in church, neither in my parish nor elsewhere. The entire generation is atheists riding the carousel. So that alternative isn't actually in the cards. Dragging some other date into church would be a great option to test her reaction, but that is just as likely to happen as she convincing her BF to participate in worship (I'm sure she tried).

An upfront move isn't in the cards, not because of the fear of rejection (I'm completely convinced there won't be any), but because of the age gap social stigma. Yes, I already received warnings for her clingy behavior right in front of her. (Of course, that got blamed on me.) Since that occurrence we both know what's going on between us.

Regarding her emotional investment I assume full blown infatuation, starting to peak, which is why I consider acting on it now. Since last weekend I have a complete picture with revealing comments combined with increasingly needy behavior. Also with less idealization she would have flaked long ago. The social stigma alone would be enough.

So why do I consider withdrawal? Because I want to move the current state of affairs from her terms to my terms or quit. I'm ready to get out of it, if it doesn't work. I'm not going to orbit her.

In case I read the entire situation completely wrong and she isn't actually invested and happy in her relationship, it still plays out how it should: There would be no point in increasing her attraction, because there is no realistic outcome then anyway.
07-21-2019 02:50 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #5
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
First of all - there is nothing wrong to learn Game from non-Christians or even PUAs.

Second - you are already crossing a line going for a girl who has a boyfriend. Even without Christian ethics - that is making life difficult for you.

You act more like her Beta-orbiter.

Text her: "Contact me when you are single." Then go and approach girls who are single and share some of your important values. I wouldn't even consider that girl for anything serious. She flirts with you while being with another man. Who would want her after such a huge red flag?
07-22-2019 04:47 AM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #6
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
Since all my adult life I've been the go to guy taken girls suddenly decide to cheat with, which is most likely is a combination of looks, charisma and managing attraction. It's not the first occurrence this happened and I'm not surprised that Christians are not really different. The point of this thread is not about going after her, increasing attraction further or even starting something serious using monkey branching. Quite the opposite. I immediately dialed back when I learned that she was taken, which of course guys like me always learn a few weeks in, when the girl suddenly remembers her relationship "problem".

The main issue is that I really suck at setting boundaries and getting my terms across. That's the thing I do not have pinned down at all. That's where it can get cringy really fast and I usually lose my frame completely. I know it's a nice problem to have, while others are struggling with keeping girls interested at all.

For example after being confronted with being the "bad boy going after the young girls" right in front of her, I instinctively reacted by agreeing and amplifying, because I had no time for consideration. That visibly swept her off her feet (making it obvious what is going on), but it didn't help the issue of keeping it low key. That would have been a perfect moment to communicate my values in a level-headed manner, but it simply hit me unprepared.

So I'm now figuring out a way to withdraw and communicate my boundaries without turning that into a cringe fest and make every future interaction completely awkward. I'm meeting with her group every weekend and that isn't going to change for a while.
07-22-2019 06:34 AM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #7
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
I still don’t understand what do you really want from her ?
What are your boundaries which you want to communicate?
For me , either you want the girl or you don’t want her .
You want the girl , then snatch her from her boyfriend by asking her out or something?
If she said yes, problem solved .
If she said no, then next interaction with her should be quick and brief . After couple of those interactions, she will get the hint .
07-28-2019 05:02 PM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #8
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
I still don’t understand what do you really want from her ?
What are your boundaries which you want to communicate?
For me , either you want the girl or you don’t want her .
You want the girl , then snatch her from her boyfriend by asking her out or something?
If she said yes, problem solved .
If she said no, then next interaction with her should be quick and brief . After couple of those interactions, she will get the hint .
07-28-2019 05:13 PM
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PapayaTapper Away
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Post: #9
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-22-2019 06:34 AM)wwtl Wrote:  For example after being confronted with being the "bad boy going after the young girls" right in front of her, I instinctively reacted by agreeing and amplifying, because I had no time for consideration. That visibly swept her off her feet (making it obvious what is going on), but it didn't help the issue of keeping it low key. That would have been a perfect moment to communicate my values in a level-headed manner, but it simply hit me unprepared.

Who did that and who are they to judge what you do?

Im still reading "fear" from you



Additionally there are a couple other possibilities to consider:

1. The "boyfriend" is even less committed to her than she is to him

2. He doesn't exist. Ive encountered this several times. Girls are usually more insecure when encountering a higher SMV man. Since women draw the majority of their identity from their relationship and the man theyre in it with the last thing she wants is for him (you) to know is that theyre currently (gasp!) unattached.

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
Joseph Campbell
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2019 06:37 PM by PapayaTapper.)
07-28-2019 06:25 PM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #10
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-28-2019 06:25 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(07-22-2019 06:34 AM)wwtl Wrote:  For example after being confronted with being the "bad boy going after the young girls" right in front of her, I instinctively reacted by agreeing and amplifying, because I had no time for consideration. That visibly swept her off her feet (making it obvious what is going on), but it didn't help the issue of keeping it low key. That would have been a perfect moment to communicate my values in a level-headed manner, but it simply hit me unprepared.

Who did that and who are they to judge what you do?

Im still reading "fear" from you



Additionally there are a couple other possibilities to consider:

1. The "boyfriend" is even less committed to her than she is to him

2. He doesn't exist. Ive encountered this several times. Girls are usually more insecure when encountering a higher SMV man. Since women draw the majority of their identity from their relationship and the man theyre in it with the last thing she wants is for him (you) to know is that theyre currently (gasp!) unattached.

The judgement is called social control. I'm in an environment, there it is actually in place and works. I realize that this is advanced stuff, because it is not just about managing a girl, but everyone else as well. That game level way above my current abilities as I found out after playing with fire. The "fear" is there because I have much more to lose than just a simple notch.

Since the time I created this thread I already decided to put the whole thing on hold and withdraw, which only caused her chasing me now. So I'm dealing with the fallout of that and be done with it. Not worth the possible social drama for just entering into some triangle.
07-29-2019 06:42 AM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #11
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
So holiday scheduling came to my help and I don't have to see her for a month. I decided to take this opportunity to cut her off, go No Contact and deleted her from my phone. She has no other ways to contact me.

Not only did my ego start become offended about what looks like failed monkey branching, but after thinking it through I might have a case of "don't fuck the company": While it's not related to my income, it's still not worth the possible fallout.

Flirting around a bit was fun while it lasted, but I think I'm done here.
07-31-2019 09:49 AM
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nixtnext Offline
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Post: #12
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
Sounds like you can let go and look ahead. Other fish in the sea. Not all girls have the moral strength to tell you to back off despite them liking you as a human being and figuring out what goes on in their brains is another thing altogether. If I really liked the girl, I would tell her that if she wants to be with me, leaving the bf is step one prior to any phone chats behind anyone's back. Then I'd just go about my business as usual.
07-31-2019 10:10 AM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #13
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
@ wwtl
If she chased , why didn’t you capitalize on this and do what you want ?
You withdrew your attention to put fear in her . It did work , she chased you . She feared of losing you . Then you should have proceeded why implementing your own terms .
07-31-2019 10:43 AM
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wwtl Offline
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Post: #14
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-31-2019 10:10 AM)nixtnext Wrote:  Sounds like you can let go and look ahead. Other fish in the sea. Not all girls have the moral strength to tell you to back off despite them liking you as a human being and figuring out what goes on in their brains is another thing altogether. If I really liked the girl, I would tell her that if she wants to be with me, leaving the bf is step one prior to any phone chats behind anyone's back. Then I'd just go about my business as usual.

She got interested in me from the first encounter. I somehow acquired some kind of teacher/guru vibe I didn't have in my younger dating life before going "monk mode", and it worked pretty well on her after I decided to try it out. (This is the only thing an age gap actually helps with.)

What matters to me now is that my ego got upset about something it didn't care about four weeks ago. That tells me I'm already involved too much and that's the signal for me to pull the plug and let go.

After the holiday season I'm going to encounter her occasionally for at least another year, which is where my "company-like" assessment comes from. Currently nothing is awkward, it's all plausible deniability on both sides. I want to keep it this way, so my reputation stays intact.

But this also means there are still plenty of opportunities to get my point across. In the social circle I can wait for opportune moment and then bring up the topic of triangles and monkey branching without even addressing her and then go out all the way in my opinion. What it means to live a double life, what I think of chats on the side and how I out of principle would never escalate on taken girls, because it's all going to end in an awkward mess. Those are my actual views, so I'm congruent. I have plenty of past life I can refer to.

She will listen in carefully as she completely hangs on my lips and I have no doubt that she will get the message. When she continues to chase for an orbiter I will make sure she knows how she fucked up, how my standards look like and how she doesn't qualify.

@Anchor Man We are now past this stage. She is going to lose me as she is taken. That's it.
07-31-2019 02:34 PM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #15
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
Thanks .
But also why your ego got bruised?
You know she wanted to monkey branch . You know she likes you . You just chose not to play her game .
You could have played and snatched her .
I didn’t see where your ego got hurt .
07-31-2019 03:05 PM
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wwtl Offline
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RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-31-2019 03:05 PM)Anchor Man Wrote:  Thanks .
But also why your ego got bruised?
You know she wanted to monkey branch . You know she likes you . You just chose not to play her game .
You could have played and snatched her .
I didn’t see where your ego got hurt .

You still haven't got it.

This is not about managing a girl and getting her into bed, no matter the cost.

This is about managing a whole group, which the girl is part of (but her BF isn't, which caused the initial issue).

I have established a certain set of standards and values for my person within the group (in line with who I really am, no larping). This is called reputation. It's the only reason why they trust me with the young girl instead of cutting me off the second it looks like there is something going on. (Except for some old guy who decided to behave retarded once.)

It's pretty clear that your standards and values differ and you would have acted differently. But you wouldn't even gotten that far, because the second she would have shown interest in you, you would have been removed from the premises already.

Of course the girl herself is immature and wants to have it her way and have it all. Tried to turn me into an orbiter, which my ego can't stand. And that is the point, where it's time for me to detach and let her go.
07-31-2019 04:03 PM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #17
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
I am pretty sure no one here understands what you are trying to achieve. You are making fucking big deal out of nothing .

You are only orbit if she shuts you down every time you make a move . And you decided to stay .

You didn’t even make the fucking move for some fucked up principles .

Fuck this forum is full of retarded people .
Fuck roosh v too . He is clown claim he knows the game and the only thing he taught was number games .
07-31-2019 04:39 PM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #18
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
Yeah your standards are telling to hit on girls inside the chruch .

A grown old ass man like you discovered Christianity . This Christianity teaches him how to use the chruch to fuck younger girls .
07-31-2019 04:43 PM
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Anchor Man Offline
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Post: #19
RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
I am done with this forum is full of shit .
I miss guys like YaRealky , Pook , and Todd V.
07-31-2019 04:44 PM
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wwtl Offline
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RE: She wants to have the cake and eat it too
(07-31-2019 04:43 PM)Anchor Man Wrote:  A grown old ass man like you discovered Christianity . This Christianity teaches him how to use the chruch to fuck younger girls .

This is exactly how you would look like following your own advice. That's why you are throwing a fit now, because old man doesn't fall for it. Indeed church was the initial contact point, but this already moved way beyond that and for not becoming an orbiter it doesn't matter where it started.

Intent is clear on both sides without a doubt. No need to write chits like in primary school. My intel is good, no hamstering required.

So why did I even get into this? Because there is always something to learn:

The general dating market is full of low quality casual sex trash, the only game I had access to in my dating past. High quality game is well-guarded in closed-off circles and never appears there. HQ game still has red flags. There is no unicorns, but it is also reassuring, that I don't have travel the other side of the planet to meet feminine women with the happy gene.

Having standards and sticking to them pays off. While this girl can be considered as a flake, it clearly opened a path to future more fitting options (including age-wise). It's a classic example of instant gratification vs. delayed gratification. How I handled this is directly influencing my future prospects in that social environment.

And then, there is not only my social standing but also her social standing and my standing with the girl. Of course, you without hesitating would have dropped your standards immediately to "snatch" her. But all that would have done is her losing her respect for you. You can't establish yourself as a high quality gentleman and then immediately tell her that for her you're going to drop everything you stand for and are happy to be a thing on the side. That's classic beta behavior.

So I stick with who I am and my values. Even if that means that I have to let go. It's going to pay off in the long term.

Yes, this forum shifted focus away from ruthless fornication. Mine did as well.
08-01-2019 12:14 AM
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