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Datasheet on Islam
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SlickyBoy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-26-2019 04:58 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  But is rather difficult for consumer finance, especially big ticket items such as housing. Perhaps, in a system where compound interest is banned, we could go back to the days where there was no consumer finance. We paid cash for everything. Since housing is inherently expensive relative to income, assuming no technology breakthrough like 3-D printing or molecular nanotechnology that makes housing as cheap as, say, a happy meal, I don't really see any alternative to debt finance unless we accept a system where only the wealthy can afford to buy their own houses outright with cash. Afterall, if I have money, or run an institution with money, why would I lend it out (e.g. debt finance) if there is no way for me to earn a return on that money? If course I would never do that.

It wasn't always viewed as un-American to not get yourself into a mortgage trap. Some people lived in tenements near their factories; others stayed on family farms for generations. Oddly enough, people found places to live without the thirty year mortgage and the associated propaganda, since that product hadn't been invented yet. After WW2 the thirty year mortgage became the perfect blend of amortized usury and, seemingly, affordability. Coupled with the push by the WASPS to tear apart ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in the cities for fear of too many babies being born in the same voting block, suburbia grew artificially and exponentially. EMJ covers this in his book Slaughter of Cities.

A few of decades later and we have obese families (or at least divorced moms with their loot) living in cookie cutter, illegal scab labor constructed 3000 square foot houses full of Amazon Prime delivered Chinese crap financed on revolving debt credit cards. Meanwhile the value of Dad's wages hasn't budged since the seventies. But he's not necessary anymore anyway, so long as his check arrives in time for mommy to drop the kids off at grandma's and meet up with her botoxed divorcee pals for another girls night out - on Dad's credit card. In a pinch, big daddy government steps in to help when necessary - mom won't pay shit in taxes and might even qualify for federal benefits.

Finally it's becoming clear that debt financed suburban living was never normal.

Whether it's the Medici family, the Austro Hungarian Empire or King Henry VIII, history proves that usury always comes back to bite a civilization in the ass.

(08-26-2019 04:58 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  ...On the other hand, if there was no financing for home ownership, it is quite likely that real estate would be a lot cheaper than it is.
That's exactly what would happen. As it is, real estate prices fall when interest rates rise, since a swath of prospective buyers are taken out of the game once the estimated payment gets too expensive. Even then it takes a while, since "values fall, but prices do not." In other words even when the market recedes for whatever reason, real estate owners wait as long as possible before getting realistic about their prices. The market doesn't care what they owe on the mortgage, but sometimes it takes forever for them to shed the ego and face facts. A house is supposed to be a place to live, not a futures contract.

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(This post was last modified: 08-27-2019 01:29 PM by SlickyBoy.)
08-27-2019 01:14 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 01:14 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 04:58 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  But is rather difficult for consumer finance, especially big ticket items such as housing. Perhaps, in a system where compound interest is banned, we could go back to the days where there was no consumer finance. We paid cash for everything. Since housing is inherently expensive relative to income, assuming no technology breakthrough like 3-D printing or molecular nanotechnology that makes housing as cheap as, say, a happy meal, I don't really see any alternative to debt finance unless we accept a system where only the wealthy can afford to buy their own houses outright with cash. Afterall, if I have money, or run an institution with money, why would I lend it out (e.g. debt finance) if there is no way for me to earn a return on that money? If course I would never do that.

It wasn't always viewed as un-American to not get yourself into a mortgage trap. Some people lived in tenements near their factories; others stayed on family farms for generations. Oddly enough, people found places to live without the thirty year mortgage and the associated propaganda, since that product hadn't been invented yet. After WW2 the thirty year mortgage became the perfect blend of amortized usury and, seemingly, affordability. Coupled with the push by the WASPS to tear apart ethnic Catholic neighborhoods in the cities for fear of too many babies being born in the same voting block, suburbia grew artificially and exponentially. EMJ covers this in his book Slaughter of Cities.

A few of decades later and we have obese families (or at least divorced moms with their loot) living in cookie cutter, illegal scab labor constructed 3000 square foot houses full of Amazon Prime delivered Chinese crap financed on revolving debt credit cards. Meanwhile the value of Dad's wages hasn't budged since the seventies. But he's not necessary anymore anyway, so long as his check arrives in time for mommy to drop the kids off at grandma's and meet up with her botoxed divorcee pals for another girls night out - on Dad's credit card. In a pinch, big daddy government steps in to help when necessary - mom won't pay shit in taxes and might even qualify for federal benefits.

Finally it's becoming clear that debt financed suburban living was never normal.

Whether it's the Medici family, the Austro Hungarian Empire or King Henry VIII, history proves that usury always comes back to bite a civilization in the ass.
Quote:There has been a movement by central bankers over the past 300 years to stamp out societies that don’t allow usury (most notably Islamic nations).

Well, isn't that funny. Found a motive for current propaganda pieces.

Quote:“Significantly, most of these wars were started against countries that had implemented interest-free state banking systems, as was the case in the North American colonies and France under Napoléon. This pattern of attacking and enforcing the banker’s system of usury has been deployed widely in the modern era and includes the defeats of Imperial Russia in World War I, Germany, Italy and Japan in World War II and most recently, Libya in 2011. These were all countries that had state banking systems, which distributed the wealth of the respective nations on an equitable basis and provided their populations with a standard of living far superior to that of their rivals and contemporaries.” – Stephen Mitford Goodson, A History of Central Banking

It's funny how in all of this, I keep coming back to jews.
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2019 01:32 PM by Manbeline.)
08-27-2019 01:26 PM
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cascadecombo Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 01:10 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 12:04 PM)911 Wrote:  Technically speaking, mortgages are not usurious, because the real interest rate (at least in the past decade or two) is close to 0. Real interest rate is defined as the nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate.

Inflation in the West has been around 4%-5%, so quite a bit higher than the official numbers which peg inflation around 2%-3%. Mortgage rates are around 3%-4%, so when you get a mortgage, you are practically getting an interest free loan, that's why it's not usurious.

I have a friend who is muslim, he's been renting apartments for the last 20 years. He's got 3 kids, MBA, comfortable dual income but well short of having enough savings to buy a house without a mortgage. His rent has been going up on average around 3%-4% per year, he's moved twice as his family expanded. Had he purchased a house 20 years ago, that property would have nearly quadrupled in value, he would have basically lived rent-free and built up his equity just from getting a mortgage.

I've tried to reason with him, working out the numbers, and showing him that he would have been way ahead by getting a mortgage instead of renting as he understands finance, but there was no logos there. This being said, credit card debt and personal/car loans at above 5% interest are definitely usurious.
Don't remind me. Having my current car loan almost at 5% still annoys me. Every minimum payment I make, I'm paying the interest at about a quarter of the entire payment. A big rip off. If I'm making regular payments, there should be no need for an interest, or something close to zero. The fact I am paying alone and on time should waive any of that. That should be illegal but here we are.

Just as an example, this is the current tally of me paying off a car of mines. All that money toward interest and none going to principal is driving me up the wall. To date, that interest is 31% of my payment. I'm literally giving them free money.

[Image: 53fcpCY.png]

Or just dont sign any contract anyone puts in front of you.
08-27-2019 01:32 PM
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911 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Usury is particularly bad when applied to car loans, because you are paying a high interest rate on a fast depreciating asset, as opposed to real estate where your asset will appreciate at least as fast as inflation.

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08-27-2019 01:40 PM
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Manbeline Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 01:32 PM)cascadecombo Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 01:10 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 12:04 PM)911 Wrote:  Technically speaking, mortgages are not usurious, because the real interest rate (at least in the past decade or two) is close to 0. Real interest rate is defined as the nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate.

Inflation in the West has been around 4%-5%, so quite a bit higher than the official numbers which peg inflation around 2%-3%. Mortgage rates are around 3%-4%, so when you get a mortgage, you are practically getting an interest free loan, that's why it's not usurious.

I have a friend who is muslim, he's been renting apartments for the last 20 years. He's got 3 kids, MBA, comfortable dual income but well short of having enough savings to buy a house without a mortgage. His rent has been going up on average around 3%-4% per year, he's moved twice as his family expanded. Had he purchased a house 20 years ago, that property would have nearly quadrupled in value, he would have basically lived rent-free and built up his equity just from getting a mortgage.

I've tried to reason with him, working out the numbers, and showing him that he would have been way ahead by getting a mortgage instead of renting as he understands finance, but there was no logos there. This being said, credit card debt and personal/car loans at above 5% interest are definitely usurious.
Don't remind me. Having my current car loan almost at 5% still annoys me. Every minimum payment I make, I'm paying the interest at about a quarter of the entire payment. A big rip off. If I'm making regular payments, there should be no need for an interest, or something close to zero. The fact I am paying alone and on time should waive any of that. That should be illegal but here we are.

Just as an example, this is the current tally of me paying off a car of mines. All that money toward interest and none going to principal is driving me up the wall. To date, that interest is 31% of my payment. I'm literally giving them free money.

[Image: 53fcpCY.png]

Or just dont sign any contract anyone puts in front of you.

I am with you on that. When I bought that car, I did a lot of pre screening to make sure the terms matched what I want. But in the end, I couldn't decrease my borrowing interest, which I had to be stuck with. I've learned some big lessons about financing, and my philosophy today is to never borrow for something I don't have the cash for except for a house.

The opportunity cost of buying that car is that I will be making back the money to pay it, and even more. That's the ideal. Which is helping in, but I do not like that I have to pay that much when I should be considered good faith. In truth, I should have just bought a cheaper car, have it paid off in one month, and be happy with a less ideal car. Lesson learned. I'm young, I have to make these mistakes.
08-27-2019 01:48 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 01:48 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  I'm young, I have to make these mistakes.

Facepalm2

Talk about failure as a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Or you could simply read, analyze, and educate yourself before making major decisions. Life is not rocket science.

Quote:You know, I listen to the drunks and it's like you're listening to a fairy story about a fight with a fucking monster, when the actual title of the story is "I Can't Handle My Liquor" by Mr. Cry Baby.

From the film "The Gambler."
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2019 04:10 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-27-2019 04:04 PM
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Manbeline Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 04:04 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Or you could simply read, analyze, and educate yourself before making major decisions. Life is not rocket science.
It's not, but I don't have a lot of mentors in my life. I'm one of the few successful people around where I am, and I've been around women and no-business sense people for ages. All of my knowledge is coming from the internet, specifically places like this. At the time, I did not have many I could go to for advice, and the few sources I did, the trade off given was convenience vs. frugality. I made a decision, which was not quick, based off what I needed and where I wanted to go. The car I bought was not too expensive, but I could have went lower if I wanted. I chose something that would be reliable for the time being, letting me put my energy and time to other things to make money that will go over what I am spending to have it.
08-27-2019 04:15 PM
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No More Mr. Soy Boy Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Good thread! I'm fascinated by islam and I think there is so much we can learn from our muslims brothers.

Especially when it comes to how we treat gays, jews and women...
08-27-2019 05:25 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 05:25 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  Good thread! I'm fascinated by islam and I think there is so much we can learn from our muslims brothers.

Especially when it comes to how we treat gays, jews and women...

The problem is that they treat all non-believers that way: your choice of (1) slavery, (2) conversion, or (3) Jizya tax. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Muhammad also married his wife Aisha at just six years old when he was in his 50's and consummated the marriage when she was nine. (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, numbers 234 and 236)

Quote:Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2019 05:42 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-27-2019 05:41 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Datasheet on Islam
There are serious scholars who now doubt that Muhammad even existed.

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2012/07...not-exist/

Rico... Sauve....
08-27-2019 07:31 PM
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Kona Offline
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 04:15 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 04:04 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Or you could simply read, analyze, and educate yourself before making major decisions. Life is not rocket science.
It's not, but I don't have a lot of mentors in my life. I'm one of the few successful people around where I am, and I've been around women and no-business sense people for ages. All of my knowledge is coming from the internet, specifically places like this. At the time, I did not have many I could go to for advice, and the few sources I did, the trade off given was convenience vs. frugality. I made a decision, which was not quick, based off what I needed and where I wanted to go. The car I bought was not too expensive, but I could have went lower if I wanted. I chose something that would be reliable for the time being, letting me put my energy and time to other things to make money that will go over what I am spending to have it.

I want to be your mentor. First, I must know the make and model of this interestmobile.

Aloha!
08-27-2019 08:16 PM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-26-2019 08:10 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  OP...Your datasheet is missing the "How To "


Bombvest


Or alternatively a condemnation of violence against non believers

Point understood. I'll take the chance now.

TLDR: Condemned

Extremism:

The Islamic term for extreme behaviour is ghuluww (the "gh",غ, is like a deep guttural g).

Ghuluww: When a concept or action is taken to ridiculous proportions e.g. vowing to pray non-stop or fast non-stop.

Ghuluww takes on a violent nature when it is political (e.g. nationalism etc) or socio-cultural (e.g. revenge, honor etc).

Kharijites: A violent political movement of mutineers (Kharaja means to leave, in this context rebel) who also commit Ghuluww.

Modern terrorist groups are termed Modern Kharijites or Neo-Kharijites.

The Prophet (pbuh) warned us clearly about both.

On Terrorism:


As usual, nothing to do with Islam, but everything with the surrounding conditions and the state of the people.

It is a mis-meme, like when self-improvement is "creepy".

Imagine if the term "red pill", despite it being general and applying to a wide range of topics (like politics, ZeroHedge), were to be associated with incels and shootings.

They would quote you, speak like you, use your jargon and then do your opposite. You are then left explaining how they have nothing to do with you.

Generally:

In any context, any military or civilian situation, suicide, even in a legitimate Jihad (which can be debated), is a grave sin in in Islam that leads one to Hell. It is practically impossible to repent from it and ask forgiveness for it, because the chance to do so is taken away by the sin itself. There are plenty of primary sources (verses and hadiths) as well as commentaries on this topic.

These guys go against 1400 years of Law and say "its OK in war". This is just one of their heresies.

In Islam, you are not allowed to attack non-combatants (regardless of their faith) at all. In addition, you are to treat your POWs like yourselves. We are not allowed to destroy the soil, livestock or producing trees. Again, primary sources and commentaries.

Heretics the lot of them. They have more than violated the Law. They are not Sunni, but are Kharijites.

Unfortunately we cannot say they are non-Muslims because they have not violated Monotheism (and the Theology) yet. They are their own sect.

So, they have nothing to do with Islam, they keep making stuff up and branching off of one another, but they are technically still Muslim. They even break the stuff they make up.

Their actions lead to Hell.

Specifically:

Yeah, most Muslims hate these guys. That is an understatement. Every now and then we hear about a so-and-so who was a talented doctor/engineer/someone was killed in an attack.

They get unprecedented external funding and the media helps them by labeling them "Ultra-Sunni" or "Ultra-Orthodox". Add this to ignorance caused by wars and poverty, extremism and an exaggerated narrative of invading barbarians trying to dominate.

Geopolitics
(08-26-2019 02:18 PM)911 Wrote:  Yeah I think the OP is delusional on geopolitics, the tidbit about Assad is straight out from the ISIS/useful idiot anti-Assad line. The fact is, the majority of fighters with the Syrian army against the jihadis are themselves sunni muslim. Also the Kurds in Syria are actually heavily armed and funded by NATO/Israel.

OP, what's your ethnic background, I'm guessing you're from south Asia (Pak./India)?

(08-26-2019 08:12 PM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  Plot twist: Bashar Al-Assad won the Syrian civil war by releasing the convicted terrorists from the prisons into the rebels, provoking Jihad by telling the his sect Alawites to prostrate to his pictures and by torturing Sunnis and forcing them to recognize him as a god (the biggest no-no in Islam). This caused the opposition to be monopolized by terrorist groups, he won the moment this happened. Google these for yourselves (obviously some google pictures will be NSFW).

Bullshit.

Your Sunni friends in Qatar and Saudi, in league with the CIA and Mossad and Erdogan, threw every Sunni ex-convict, child rapist, Chechen fighter, criminal and murderer they could arrange into Syria.

Stop projecting my friend. It was your team who emptied their jails.

Search "يسجدون لبشار الاسد" on Google Images (Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V), some images NSFW

Of course they are going to use the opportunity as propaganda! Can you imagine them not doing so? Is that not what he was trying to do?

I do not defend the actions of any government, they do not play "team", they play the game in their favor. They are all guilty.

For now I will work on my postcount and then join you later in the politics sub-forum. See you there!

Spirituality
(08-27-2019 01:19 AM)Mage Wrote:  Every religion that denies individual liberation trough perfection of character, meditation and mindfulness and claims God can be reached only trough proxies like scripture, priesthood, scholars or membership to some group like Church or Ummah is wrong and exists to:
a) derail your spiritual quest from introspection to arguing about scriptures and history [is torah].
b) make you a pawn in the political games.
c) gain power and money at your expense.
You have raised interesting points.

We do not deny perfection of the individual character, meditation and mindfulness. Do you mean the Hindu/Dharmic Moksha by individual liberation?

We do restrict worship to God, directly. Proxies can lead back to polytheism and away from Him so we do not do those either. The Scripture is just there to guide and answer "How?", scholars to teach it.

What do you use as a criterion when things get very relative? How do you learn about God and how to get to him?

a) The Scripture is pretty clear in Islam. It is just that people want stuff, so they do scriptural gymnastics. I am guessing that similar things happen in other religions too. I find that the Qur'an leads me to take time and think deep.

b) & c) Islamic (at least Sunni) scholarship is decentralized. People memorize the Qur'an, learn Arabic and Law everywhere. In Islam, charity is defined and is divided directly to the needy. You know who and what you are funding. There is no cult business of Imams taking money.

Interest
I see usury as the opposite of charity, the society is effectively paying the rich for being rich.

It feels weird to me when the trade of goods that cost work and effort to produce, for currency that also cost work and effort also involves paying a third party.
08-27-2019 10:13 PM
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Kid Twist Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Datasheet on Islam
I really would like to read an attempt to explain why the person of Jesus Christ and the person of Muhammad are antithetical. I'm being quite serious here, when it really comes down to it, they have literally nothing in common in action and teaching.

Get your passport ready!
08-27-2019 11:18 PM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 11:18 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  I really would like to read an attempt to explain why the person of Jesus Christ and the person of Muhammad are antithetical. I'm being quite serious here, when it really comes down to it, they have literally nothing in common in action and teaching.

Many Muslims like to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. That is absurd on its fase. Muslims acknowledge Jesus only as a prophet, not as the Son of God -- and not as God. So, by their denial of Jesus Christ as God, Muslims do not worship the one true God.
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2019 11:37 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-27-2019 11:36 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 10:13 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  On Terrorism:

As usual, nothing to do with Islam
...

It never is, is it. Big Grin

Quote:Generally:

In any context, any military or civilian situation, suicide, even in a legitimate Jihad (which can be debated), is a grave sin in in Islam that leads one to Hell. It is practically impossible to repent from it and ask forgiveness for it, because the chance to do so is taken away by the sin itself. There are plenty of primary sources (verses and hadiths) as well as commentaries on this topic.

These guys go against 1400 years of Law and say "its OK in war". This is just one of their heresies.

In Islam, you are not allowed to attack non-combatants (regardless of their faith) at all. In addition, you are to treat your POWs like yourselves. We are not allowed to destroy the soil, livestock or producing trees. Again, primary sources and commentaries.

Heretics the lot of them. They have more than violated the Law. They are not Sunni, but are Kharijites.

Unfortunately we cannot say they are non-Muslims because they have not violated Monotheism (and the Theology) yet. They are their own sect.

So, they have nothing to do with Islam, they keep making stuff up and branching off of one another, but they are technically still Muslim. They even break the stuff they make up.

Their actions lead to Hell.

No-one else notice the glaring contradictions here?

Classic 'No True Scotsman.'
08-28-2019 03:03 AM
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Post: #41
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islam is the only religion in the world that has convinced people to blow themselves up to go to heaven and get virgins. Why not any other religion?

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin. Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the sellers from temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth."

- Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
08-28-2019 06:27 AM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 11:18 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  I really would like to read an attempt to explain why the person of Jesus Christ and the person of Muhammad are antithetical. I'm being quite serious here, when it really comes down to it, they have literally nothing in common in action and teaching.

Thank you.

My best attempt (given my time):

We Muslims have our own perspective of Jesus (pbuh):

They had different situations and different people, but taught the same message of Monotheism, and Divine Law.

Romans had Judea occupied and the Israelites were not happy. They were not Abrahamic yet and added gods of conquered peoples to their pantheon. The cultural differences did not help either. There were some who got by fine, there were others who took the matters to their own hands (despite there not being any legal moves) and became the Zealots. The Zealots were a separate sect.

Israelites were not upon what they meant to be upon e.g. the Sadducees did not believe in fate, afterlife and angels etc. They wanted horses and swords anyway.

Jesus (pbuh) came to them and said that he was the Messiah. They accused him of wanting to be the emperor, and tried to get him executed by the Romans. They were not having it at all. Crucifixion was for the enemies of the State.

Arab Ishmaelites (pbuh) (some Arabs are Ishmaelites, others are not) had lost the way of Abraham (pbuh). They had added other gods to the worship of God and had made religion a business. They were almost wiped out by Abraha's Yemeni army and his attempt to compete.

Muhammad (pbuh) came to them and taught Monotheism, and Divine Law. There was no state in the Arabian peninsula and he was from a noble tribe so there was no attempt to crucify him. There were assassination attempts and attacks though (as killing him in public would violate tribal honor and cause a feud).

Initially the Quraish persecuted and tortured the Muslims for years, but eventually, after battles, treaties and negotiation, Islam won. Towards the end, the Muslims had a state. The Divine Law provides guidelines and morals for all of this with verses and examples, what to do and what not to do.

Some people also tried to invent loop-holes and other ways of attacking and undermining Muslims non-stop. Law dealt with this also.

The narrative is, that the OT continues.

(08-27-2019 11:36 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 11:18 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  I really would like to read an attempt to explain why the person of Jesus Christ and the person of Muhammad are antithetical. I'm being quite serious here, when it really comes down to it, they have literally nothing in common in action and teaching.

Many Muslims like to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. That is absurd on its fase. Muslims acknowledge Jesus only as a prophet, not as the Son of God -- and not as God. So, by their denial of Jesus Christ as God, Muslims do not worship the one true God.

This back-fires and leads to more questions than answers.

Do Jews not worship the same God as Christians? Did the pre-Christ Israelites not worship the same God as Christians? So you have the Abrahamic religions, but the Christians have a completely different concept of God? Did the Early Christians not differ in their concepts? When do you have a different God?

We worship the same God because we attribute the same history and the same prophets to him however we do have a different concepts of Him.

Also, if one can worship each individual of the Trinity separately (e.g. pray to the Father first, then the Son, then the Spirit), would they not technically be three gods (by the definition of a god), in one ultimate reality?

How does one reconcile with Jesus (pbuh) prostrating and placing his forehead on the ground? This is the ultimate sign of sincerity in worship and humility. In the OT, God most high wiped out peoples (flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah etc) for being disobedient.

Claiming "Son of God" is a tradition of powerful men far and wide in the land. Did Jesus really, literally, claim this?

As for debates between Muslims and Christians, there are excellent scholars on each side who are doing a good job, I am not too interested in debating here myself because it can get pretty amateur (and vulgar even).

Do share if there is anything interesting that I may have not heard of.

(08-28-2019 03:03 AM)Huxley Badkin Wrote:  
(08-27-2019 10:13 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  On Terrorism:
As usual, nothing to do with Islam...

It never is, is it. Big Grin

Quote:Generally:

In any context, any military or civilian situation, suicide, even in a legitimate Jihad (which can be debated), is a grave sin in in Islam that leads one to Hell. It is practically impossible to repent from it and ask forgiveness for it, because the chance to do so is taken away by the sin itself. There are plenty of primary sources (verses and hadiths) as well as commentaries on this topic.

These guys go against 1400 years of Law and say "its OK in war". This is just one of their heresies.

In Islam, you are not allowed to attack non-combatants (regardless of their faith) at all. In addition, you are to treat your POWs like yourselves. We are not allowed to destroy the soil, livestock or producing trees. Again, primary sources and commentaries.

Heretics the lot of them. They have more than violated the Law. They are not Sunni, but are Kharijites.

Unfortunately we cannot say they are non-Muslims because they have not violated Monotheism (and the Theology) yet. They are their own sect.

So, they have nothing to do with Islam, they keep making stuff up and branching off of one another, but they are technically still Muslim. They even break the stuff they make up.

Their actions lead to Hell.

No-one else notice the glaring contradictions here?

Classic 'No True Scotsman.'

I am being honest here.

Imagine a Christian committed some of the worst sins (short of major heresy) and that he said that the values taught in the Bible lead him there (along with additional misinformation from groups exploiting the power of religion). What if he sacrificed some teachings and heresied to try to get things done? Would he not still be Christian? Yet would not his actions have nothing to do with Christianity anymore?

One can be a horrible sinner and still be a follower of a religion. Would you dump him and go "Well, he is clearly not a Christian!"? There are the teachings, but then there are people.

I did not say "No true Muslim..." here. The definition of a Muslim is the one who believes in the six core beliefs in Islam and practices (to their ability) the five pillars. One can lose his Islam in many ways, including the violation of Monotheism, adding intermediaries between Man and God, clearly and intentionally contradicting the Qur'an and the Sunnah, ridiculing Islam, intentionally making the forbidden permissible or belief that some people are above the Law and etc. One will then have re-enter Islam and then start again.

Islam is the religion and the teachings. The Muslim is the one who subscribes to them. One can still be a sinner or even be misled from it (to a limit).

The terrorist groups are heretics, they went ahead and ignored some parts of the Law, and added some others. They have not violated (with visible intention at least) the boundaries that would make one a non-Muslim yet.

Intentionally violating a mutual understanding of peace and duty (under the branch of contracts and agreements in Sharia) is a grave sin, Hell is a real consequence.
08-28-2019 07:46 AM
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Post: #43
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Then why does nearly no muslim condemn then when asked to publicly?

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08-28-2019 09:40 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-28-2019 07:46 AM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  I did not say "No true Muslim..." here. The definition of a Muslim is the one who believes in the six core beliefs in Islam and practices (to their ability) the five pillars. One can lose his Islam in many ways, including the violation of Monotheism, adding intermediaries between Man and God, clearly and intentionally contradicting the Qur'an and the Sunnah, ridiculing Islam, intentionally making the forbidden permissible or belief that some people are above the Law and etc. One will then have re-enter Islam and then start again.

Congratulations, you have stumbled upon the truth. The vast majority of Islamic people do not punish Jihadists, nor even criticize them or try to dissuade them, because Jihadists are not "clearly and intentionally contradicting the Qur'an and the Sunnah."

In fact, Jihadists very carefully follow the Qur'an's call for the subjugation and conquest of the non-Muslim world. As you say, if the Jihadists acted contrary to the Qur'an then they would be cast out of Islam. The fact that this never happens says it all. In fact, in the Muslim world, the opposite usually happens. Muslims rejoice in the streets at the death and slaughter caused by Jihadists.

No other major "religion" is violent and predatory like Islam. The difference between the teachings of Muhammad and Jesus are clear and stark:

   
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 10:57 AM by Tail Gunner.)
08-28-2019 10:50 AM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-28-2019 07:46 AM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  The terrorist groups are heretics, they went ahead and ignored some parts of the Law, and added some others. They have not violated (with visible intention at least) the boundaries that would make one a non-Muslim yet.

Laugh4

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08-28-2019 11:25 AM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
Another important doctrine in Islam is Naskh (نسخ), which is an Arabic word usually translated as "abrogation." It is the doctrine created to resolve the contradictory rulings of Islamic revelation, which is accomplished by superseding or canceling earlier revelations. Violent Jihad is based on this doctrine.

Why is this doctrine important? Some ignorant people have called Islam "a religion of peace" based on the many verses that counsel patience for unbelievers, while other verses call for warfare against the unbelievers. The former verses are linked to the earlier Meccan phase of Muhammad's mission when Muslims were too few and too weak to do other than endure insults. The latter violent verses are linked to the Medina phase of Muhammad's mission after he acquired an army to hit back at his enemies. The doctrine of abrogation cures the discrepancy between the earlier peaceful verses in favor of the latter violent verses, which abrogate those earlier peaceful verses.

Among "medieval exegetes and jurists" there was "a broad consensus that Quran 9:5 and Quran 9:29 abrogated "all the other statements" in the Quran "on the issue of waging war." The verse of the sword Quran 9:5 abrogates "more than a hundred" verses of the Quran advising or advocating peace, coexistence, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness as the basis for relations between Muslims and non-Muslims. [As a side note, research what sparked the first Crusades, when Muslims robbed and slaughtered defenseless Christians on the road to Jerusalem. Violence against unbelievers has gone on for 1000 years.]

Quote:Then when have passed the sacred months, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and seize them and besiege them and sit (in wait) for them (at) every place of ambush. But if they repent and establish the prayer and give the zakah then leave their way. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 9:5.

Quote:Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what Allah has made unlawful and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the willingly, while they (are) subdued.

Quran 9:29.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(taf...d_verse(s)


The doctrine of abrogation explains why the vast majority of Muslims do not criticize or dissuade Islamic terrorists -- much less cooperate with the authorities. Muslims know that the Jihadists are simply following the Quran. So, what is there to criticize?
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 12:59 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-28-2019 12:48 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Can you just state opinions and back it up please? I do not see the point anymore...

Claims
(08-28-2019 10:50 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
(08-28-2019 07:46 AM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  I did not say "No true Muslim..." here. The definition of a Muslim is the one who believes in the six core beliefs in Islam and practices (to their ability) the five pillars. One can lose his Islam in many ways, including the violation of Monotheism, adding intermediaries between Man and God, clearly and intentionally contradicting the Qur'an and the Sunnah, ridiculing Islam, intentionally making the forbidden permissible or belief that some people are above the Law and etc. One will then have re-enter Islam and then start again.

Congratulations, you have stumbled upon the truth. The vast majority of Islamic people do not punish Jihadists, nor even criticize them or try to dissuade them, because Jihadists are not "clearly and intentionally contradicting the Qur'an and the Sunnah."...

You are saying:
  • Muslims do not punish terrorists
  • Muslims do not even criticize them

No need to answer, obviously wrong.

(08-28-2019 12:48 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Among "medieval exegetes and jurists" there was "a broad consensus that Quran 9:5 and Quran 9:29 abrogated "all the other statements" in the Quran "on the issue of waging war." The verse of the sword Quran 9:5 abrogates "more than a hundred" verses of the Quran advising or advocating peace, coexistence, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness as the basis for relations between Muslims and non-Muslims. [As a side note, research what sparked the first Crusades, when Muslims robbed and slaughtered defenseless Christians on the road to Jerusalem. Violence against unbelievers has gone on for 1000 years.]

You copied this straight from Wikipedia. And you are adding:
  • Quran [9:29] abrogates "all the other statements" on war
  • Quran [9:5] alone abrogates "more than a hundred" on peace
  • Majority of the medieval scholars agree on this

Who said this and what proof did they present?

"Muslims robbed and slaughtered defenseless Christians", the language used here.

There is a lot that happened in the Crusades. It was not simply Muslims v. Christians, it also had Catholic v. Orthodox and various other match ups.

"Muslims know that the Jihadists are simply following the Quran", it's all simple isn't it. This is in all likeliness a troll post.

Besides, what is it with this attitude and tone?

Quotes (and their context)



Tail Gunner
(08-28-2019 12:48 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  
Quote:Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what Allah has made unlawful and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the willingly, while they (are) subdued.
Qur'an [9:29]

You pulled 9:29 out of its context and presented it as a general wage war verse.

Context

TLDR: It was revealed after the Romans killed the Muslim ambassador.

Location & Time of revelation:
Quote:عَنْ مُجَاهِدٍ قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلا بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ… حِينَ أُمِرَ مُحَمَّدٌ وَأَصْحَابُهُ بِغَزْوَةِ تَبُوكَ
Tafseer Tabari for Qur'an [9:29]

English:
Quote:From Mujahid (concerning the verse in bold, 9:29):
Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions were at an expedition at Tabuk

Why were they at Tabuk?

Quote:وَكَانَ سَبَبُهَا أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بَعَثَ الحارث بن عمير الأزدي أَحَدَ بَنِي لِهْبٍ بِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى الشَّامِ إِلَى مَلِكِ الرُّومِ أَوْ بُصْرَى فَعَرَضَ لَهُ شرحبيل بن عمرو الغساني فَأَوْثَقَهُ رِبَاطًا ثُمَّ قَدَّمَهُ فَضَرَبَ عُنُقَهُ وَلَمْ يُقْتَلْ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ رَسُولٌ غَيْرُهُ فَاشْتَدَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ حِينَ بَلَغَهُ الْخَبَرُ فَبَعَثَ الْبُعُوثَ
Zaad Al-Ma'ad, 336, by Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawzi

English:
Quote:The cause of it (the battle) was that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, sent Harith ibn Umair Al-Azdi of the tribe of Lihb with his letter to Syria for the Roman king or Busra. He presented it to Sharhabeel ibn Amr Al-Ghassani and he bound him and struck his neck. Never had an ambassador of the Messenger of Allah been killed besides him. The Prophet was upset by that when news reached him and he dispatched an expedition.

In short, the emissary of the Prophet (pbuh) to Eastern Rome was assassinated.

والله اعلم
(And Allah knows best)

This has been condensed.
Full source: An article by Abu Amina Elias

This should give you an example of what is meant by context.

I am not going to answer explain this verse explain that verse questions anymore.

You can go and ask a Sheikh for yourself.
08-28-2019 03:58 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 10:13 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  Interest
I see usury as the opposite of charity, the society is effectively paying the rich for being rich.

It feels weird to me when the trade of goods that cost work and effort to produce, for currency that also cost work and effort also involves paying a third party.

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(08-27-2019 01:40 PM)911 Wrote:  Usury is particularly bad when applied to car loans, because you are paying a high interest rate on a fast depreciating asset, as opposed to real estate where your asset will appreciate at least as fast as inflation.
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08-28-2019 04:12 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-28-2019 03:58 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  They had different situations and different people, but taught the same message of Monotheism, and Divine Law.

You didn't answer my question. The Anointed One doesn't teach the "same" message of Monotheism or Divine Law as Muhammad either.

If Muhammad is the "uswa hasana" and "al insan al kamil"*

***please see that even the WikiIslam link (explaining the terms and their exegesis) which does not agree with you here***

how do we rectify their completely antithetical actions?

If Christians are liars or corrupters of "the faith" then they certainly "invented" an amazing man by all stretch of the imagination according to time, history, and nearly every culture that we know of. Yet, you call someone (Mo) who is not like this person at all, "the complete man"?

You should think long and hard on this topic, it is actually this simple to show you who God really is. You did come to a red pill forum. Please note that the argument speaks for itself, I'm just the Morpheus messenger on this one.

Get your passport ready!
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2019 06:20 PM by Kid Twist.)
08-28-2019 06:19 PM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
You lost me at “literal word of god” Dodgy

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08-28-2019 07:01 PM
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