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Datasheet on Islam
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-30-2019 01:24 PM)mikado Wrote:  This conversation is pointless. No one is gonna bulge even for a little bit.

I have engaged in the past in discussions similar to this. Every time there is a user (with >95% of his posts against democrats/EU/immigration/islam) who uses violent words against me (or sends me a passive agressive message via PM) then puts me on ignore list. At least someone like Simeon_Strangelight remains cordial, even if we always disagree.

I think you should just let it go, OP. You won't convince anyone here. I have abandonned trying that for a long time, after getting every time accused of Taqqiya, deformation of my words, apology of terrorism, and other stuff like that

Just enjoy the decline and watch the forum salt and tears on different subjects, like Brexit or the upcoming recession.

I agree. The OP should spend his time in the Muslim community exhorting Muslims to turn their backs on violence -- and confront those Muslim Imams who teach violence. That would be a far more productive use of his time.

One such Muslim is worth 1,000 Muslims typing on chat sites trying to convince victims of Islam that Islam is a religion of peace. People such as myself have read dozens of books regarding Islam. You will not change our minds. We already know the truth. In fact, have a friend under a fatwa of death for educating people about Islam. He knows people who speak Arabic who visit the Wahhabi mosques and centers in the U.S., take copies of the violent literature, and then turn it over to the FBI. The OP could also be one of those brave people. The OP could do plenty if he wished to stop violence.

Instead of pushing the false narrative that "Islam is a religion of peace," go out into the world and actually turn Islam into a religion of peace. If you did that, I would sincerely pray for you -- and for your safety.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2019 01:47 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-30-2019 01:39 PM
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mikado Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-30-2019 01:30 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 01:24 PM)mikado Wrote:  This conversation is pointless. No one is gonna bulge even for a little bit.

I have engaged in the past in discussions similar to this. Every time there is a user (with >95% of his posts against democrats/EU/immigration/islam) who uses violent words against me (or sends me a passive agressive message via PM) then puts me on ignore list. At least someone like Simeon_Strangelight remains cordial, even if we always disagree.

I think you should just let it go, OP. You won't convince anyone here.

I was not trying to convince or convert. I was just trying to share.

If I find anything new to share on Islam in the future, I might share it here.

I let go of any debating here on this thread.


Good call OP.

Je suis le roi du monde!!!
08-30-2019 01:43 PM
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911 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Datasheet on Islam
The basic fact about Islam is that around 90% of what we know about it is done through the prism of Jewish/Zionist mass media and popular culture, including academia, with the leading figures, like Bernard Lewis, all being trotskyite neocons. Islam replaced the red menace in the 1990s after the collapse of the USSR, that's when the phenomenon of islamic terrorism suddenly appeared on the world scene.

As well in the US most people's contact with the islamic world is through the Gulf region and wars of occupation, not the best of circumstances and representatives of Islam.

The origins and roots of movements that dominate global Islam today like wahhabism and the Muslim Brotherhood, are of masonic and early zionist origin, there is a strong parallel there with American Protestantism, which has been heavily distorted by the fraud of Dispensationalism.

λ ό γ ο ς
08-30-2019 01:52 PM
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questor70 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Life in the distant past was usually nasty, brutish, and short. The power-systems back then reflected this. The code of Hammurabi was considered a progressive development at the time because it limited justice to an eye for an eye rather than what must have been something akin to Sean Connery's "Chicago Way" of upping the ante again and again.

Correspondingly, the old testament featured a very vengeful God. Other polytheist religions like the greeks or norse featured cruel deities. The new testament was an innovation featuring a more compassionate and forgiving ethos (outside of revelations). But I chalk up Islam to the same factors that produced the old testament. A harsh environment breeds harsh belief-systems, and even if Islam was less harsh than what preceded it, it's sure harsh by today's standards.

I think the reason Islam is popular is that, like cults, religions that promote themselves as being all-encompassing with a set of strict rules are attractive to lost souls who can't find their own way in life. They latch onto something else which dictates to them what to do and what not to do. It's like spending your whole life in boot camp. Certainly people could benefit from structure in life (think of Jordan Peterson clean your room) but there's a line beyond which rules and regulations stop being beneficial and start being oppressive.

Islam does not have its own immune system, as it were. It has very limited means in which to evolve and self-reflect and correct. I mean, even the constitution has had amendments to it. Anything that rigid is dangerous. It is closed-mindedness. It shuts down discourse. It's anti-democratic. It's really the antithesis of everything America stands for.

Pretty much the only thing it has going for it is it reigns in hypergamy. But at too high a cost.
08-30-2019 01:55 PM
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tomtud Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Datasheet on Islam
From the OP "Iran was a majority Sunni country until about 1500, when the Safavids came to power and forcefully converted the country to Shiism. Most people do not convert to Shiism under natural circumstances."

This is where the quote ends. He accidentally forgot to put covert to Sunni as well. I don't know one Iranian who is proud that they got invaded. They tell me their country got ruined. Zoroastrianism Was replaced by Islam.

Taken from Wikipedia "DescriptionThe Muslim conquest of Persia, also known as the Arab conquest of Iran, led to the fall of the Sasanian Empire of Iran in 651 and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion. The rise of Muslims coincided with an unprecedented political, social, economic, and military weakness in Persia." How many more examples does one need to see to prove the hypothesis that Islam ruins countries? Shall I talk about what happened in Bosnia in the 1600s when the Turks came to Bosnia to convert and take over? I can go on and on. They did the same thing as the prophet Mohammed did. Rule and conquer.

Jumping over so many hurdles to make ones view of the world work is exhausting. Just look up Ayaan Hirsi Ali on YouTube who has to live surrounded by bodyguards because she critiqued/discussed Islam in a way some got offended. Why did they get offended? Well she never said anything vulgar. She spoke about the faith and gave her point of view.

Like a cult. If you speak against it or leave it you are at times in trouble. Islam shares aspects of this definition. I don't want to read "ohhh that is some socio cultural stuff etc". Where is this true Islam?????

God/Allah is the figure being worshipped. Does he need you to kill and subjugate people for him? Of course not. The exact opposite thing happened in the Arabic Islamic conquests. Many of the Muslims I know are like many Christians. Just in name only. Perhaps go to a religious event once a year and that is it. Then you have the devout like the OP. All I can say is thank you for sharing your point of view. Just we all can learn from each other by reading more and more from the pro and con side from
Each.
08-30-2019 02:41 PM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-30-2019 02:41 PM)tomtud Wrote:  Many of the Muslims I know are like many Christians. Just in name only. Perhaps go to a religious event once a year and that is it.

I have a Muslim friend who told me that if he was a devout Muslim he could not be my friend. He could pretend to be my friend, but that is all. Enough said.

BTW: I have no problem with non-practising Muslims because they are peaceful. I have a problem with the Muslims who push the false narrative that "Islam is a religion of peace."
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2019 04:30 PM by Tail Gunner.)
08-30-2019 03:59 PM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Datasheet on Islam
I can't remember who said it, maybe David Wood, but he noted correctly that radical Muslim terrorists often come from the ranks of secularized Muslims. They get to a point in their life where they feel the weight of their sin. How to score giant points or even ensure paradise? Jihad. So even the moderates may not become so moderate. Which doesn't mean they are all practicing taqqiya. This short video may be helpful:




The protestant debater, James White, has noted that radical Islam is like Protestantism in the limited sense that it is a return to roots, a re-focusing on the holy books instead of relying more upon tradition and jurisprudence over the centuries. Of course, the difference is that the Bible is a much different book than than the Quran. There is a reading of the Quran where violence is an answer as you look at things like Surah 9 and various hadith.
08-30-2019 11:07 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-30-2019 01:24 PM)mikado Wrote:  This conversation is pointless. No one is gonna bulge even for a little bit.

I have engaged in the past in discussions similar to this. Every time there is a user (with >95% of his posts against democrats/EU/immigration/islam) who uses violent words against me (or sends me a passive agressive message via PM) then puts me on ignore list. At least someone like Simeon_Strangelight remains cordial, even if we always disagree.

I think you should just let it go, OP. You won't convince anyone here. I have abandonned trying that for a long time, after getting every time accused of Taqqiya, deformation of my words, apology of terrorism, and other stuff like that. For example, after declaring for 6 years that I am against terrorism, AND illegal immigration, you still have people pretending that I advocate for those.

Just enjoy the decline and watch the forum salt and tears on different subjects, like Brexit or the upcoming recession, or the alleged "great replacement".

I can easily tell that you are a good guy and a smart one.

The only issue I have with you is that you are Muslim. Obviously plenty of good and saintly people are born in Islam, but the religion itself is just way too evil evne if you yourself will never live according to the edicts.

If Islam were only a way to live in service to your understanding of God, then it would be one thing, but it is a path designed for war. The polygamy creates internal sex pressure by default. The inbreeding lowers intelligence - heck even covering up the women constantly does that on top of fasting during pregnancy.
Islam also is inherently created to stifle science. Plenty of Islamic leaders have either destroyed old works of architecture or burned down libraries, because they were created before them. Some have clearly said that only the Quran is enough. The entire Muslim world prints and writes as many books per year than France alone!!!!!

Islam is a backwards war path that will hold back it's people and foster war - eternally. And obviously it's also designed to be tribal as it's mentioned frequently that the highest tribe is the one around Mohammed, then his neighboring ones and then others. There is definitely a hierarchy even in the Muslim world from the Saudis to the Bangladeshis, the African Muslims. Schisms are also normal since the very beginning - everyone has his interpretation of the Backwards Religion of War - that is what it should be called.

And the reason why Western converts become radical is SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY LIVE ISLAM CORRECTLY!!!

[Image: nintchdbpict000313486906.jpg]

[Image: image.jpg]

War is true Islam though waiting until the demographics tip in your favor is also part of the strategy. Most Muslims in truth don't study or know much about Islam. They will simply copy most beliefs and customs that they pick up by osmosis. If it's more beningn and liberal in theat country or region then they will live it that way. But that has nothing to do with Islam and neither do the times of forced reformation from the 1940s to the 70s. Anyone can now go online and find out that the moderate Islam is just talking aout of his ass - true Islam is a relentless civilizational backwards path of total war and conflict. Then when you win, you burn all the books and the infidel architecture and return to the Middle Ages with running shit-streets.

And this has nothing to do with "Zionist propaganda". The Moroccans have been capturing US soldiers and keeping them as slaves as late as 1810 and the Ottomans had slaves up until the 1940s - slaves of all races. No one if forcing all those Muslim immigrants to rape and murder galore in Europe, but somehow they do, because Islam is a mind-cancer.
(This post was last modified: 08-31-2019 05:20 AM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
08-31-2019 05:20 AM
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Zevs Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islam is of the devil.
08-31-2019 06:55 AM
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bk19xsa Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Datasheet on Islam
OP, this topic has been done before on this forum(the political part). I appreciate that you have not gone into the hardcore geo-political aspects and kept it as an informational sheet.

However, some of the posters' including Simeon's criticism are valid on the non political, spiritual and historical parts.

First, you have to be a little more precise in showing the difference between Jesus and the prophet within Islam itself and then compare it to Christianity. Why is Jesus revered in Islam so much but still only a prophet?

Secondly, you should respond to the criticism that the religion seems enforced rather than set by example. You mention that the prophet set everything by example, which muslims call the 'Hudit'. Is it forced upon an individual?

Lastly, answer the criticism of spirituality vs ideology in Islam.

In my experience, both having lived in and interacted with many muslims, I can say most of your spiritual points on mslims are based on what the muslim book asks.

One observation, which I have noticed is that though most muslims consider themsleves religious and peaceful, their ideologies spread faster because of high population growth and strong awareness building. What happens is (and that is something you should answer the criticism to) that such growth of a strong religious identity encompasses lot of lost, illitrate and marginalized souls. This gives those people the cover to do harm in the name of religion or get manipulated easily into doing so.

Also, I have noticed some of the most objective, highly intelligent people getting ensnared in the religion. During my undergrad I had two TAs for beginner's physics, one a hardcore atheist and another a staunch muslim. Both were friends and belonged to the same STEM program. The atheist would rib the muslim pretty hard on some of the stuff inluding the 72 virgin stuff, which the muslim occasionally used to take offence to and then actually try to deny it. However, the muslim used to remain steadfast in most of the Islamic beliefs. 3 years later the atheist became a Muslim. Now the question should be asked is that because at average Muslims just don't give up preaching or try to remain true to their beliefs, are they inevitably a 'if you can't win them...join them' religion. You get what I mean OP? You see this creates an indirect force effect. The atheist, though he was in control , constantly faced a barrier from his Muslim friend till it overcame him.

Lastly, something which I have noticed is that islam, given to the wrong, low intelligent people, can be used by them for wrong. This can go into geopolitics discussion, so I will not elaborate. The vice versa is also true. I did my grad school in one of the good southern US schools. I met this soon to be physicist: a proper bearded, priest type of Muslim. His dressing sense was severely strict as well. But if you sat down and talked astronomy with him, then he'll go non stop on the scientific wonders of the universe, extolling them. Now put that person in a village in some Paki/Afgani land and take away the intelligence, you might have a bonafide mujahadin on hands. OP, why is it like that in Islam?
08-31-2019 07:04 AM
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Post: #86
RE: Datasheet on Islam
^^^
bk19xsa

What scientists and modern tech obsessed paradigm won't recognize is that intelligence is not a monolithic quality and there are multiple types of smarts.

A person can be smart in STEM and have a good head for calculating math or memorizing facts and still be a bad philosopher.

Nobody who has high philosopher type of intelligence can respect Islam.

It's so sad to see people equating ability to do STEM with with intelligence these days, that is government propaganda because the government want more gears in their technocratic advances.

There are plenty of human calculators with photographic memory who cannot game a woman or who fall for Nigerian e-mails scams or just believe a thing government says.

Real smarts is about detecting scams and traps in real life, seeing trough social dogmas, knowing how to game the system, no person with this type of smarts can respect a prescriptive and oppressive ideology like Islam.

If you see a socially/life smart Mohammedan who can do some philosophical arguments be sure they are evil person and are in this for free pass to be violent, sexually exploitative or somehow manipulative and gaining money or power from this cult.

In case of Islam, unlike smarter cults like Christianity, even most STEM smart intellectual people are smart enough to see trough that, there fore Islam also brings science stagnation, but it is secondary to much dismal stagnation in philosophy and freedom of speech and general freedom.
(This post was last modified: 08-31-2019 09:21 AM by Mage.)
08-31-2019 09:06 AM
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balybary Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islam in Practice

Welcome to this muslim consulate, Mister Journalist!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat..._Khashoggi
Quote:The assassination of Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi dissident, journalist for The Washington Post and former general manager and editor-in-chief of Al-Arab News Channel, occurred on 2 October 2018 at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey and was perpetrated by agents of the Saudi Arabian government

Khashoggi had entered the consulate in order to obtain documents related to the marriage he and his fiancée were planning. Because no security camera footage of him exiting the building could be found,[10] he was declared a missing person[11] amid news reports claiming that he had been assassinated and dismembered inside the consulate.[12][13]

According to numerous anonymous police sources, the Turkish police believe that Khashoggi was tortured and killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul[78][79] by a 15-member team brought in from Saudi Arabia for the operation.[80][81] One anonymous police source claimed that the dead body was "cut into pieces" and quietly moved out of the consulate, and that all of this was "videotaped to prove the mission had been accomplished and the tape was taken out of the country".[79] Middle East Eye cited an anonymous Saudi who said the Tiger Squad brought Khashoggi's fingers to Mohammad bin Salman in Riyadh as other evidence that the mission was successful.[82]
08-31-2019 11:38 AM
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for.petes.sake Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-29-2019 08:46 PM)OskuroPekenyo Wrote:  Religion and Politics
(08-26-2019 09:32 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  Then there are the set of political rules that come into play. The Koran has rules on how to govern people. Why would God create so many political laws? A religion should be to spiritual guide you, not tell you how to govern (and in such detail).

Depends on what you mean by political. If by that you mean, attempting to influence the opinions of others, then an apolitical religion is impossible. If a religion makes moral statements that influence political views, again that religion is political.

If religion does not cover Politics, people will be left to their own devices. A Man will rise over the chatter and tell the rest to quieten. I prefer Divine Law to what that man has to say.

(08-26-2019 09:32 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  Pray 5 times a day! Why would God need me to pray 5 times a day? And then that too at such odd times like 5am.

Pray 5 times a day! Laugh

God expects (not needs) effort and devotion of you. Maintaining attendance becomes effortless with time, the difficulty then shifts to maintaining punctuality and focus. I cannot finish my day without finishing my prayers, I would feel like I had missed the mark.

Is He not worthy of worship?

Alcohol
(08-26-2019 09:32 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  Alcohol is banned so that people do not get drunk and never break free from the programming.

Alcohol does not free you, abusing it it enslaves you into addiction and humilates you. It is an intoxicant, it makes you do things you would never consider sober. Half of the Darwin awards would be gone if banned.

If you were not occupied with it, you would be free to learn and discuss politics, philosophy and religion.



OP's responses
(08-28-2019 08:47 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  OP with less than 10 posts creates a thread promoting the virtues of Islam.

The datasheet was made to inform and describe. I originally did not want to debate, but I had to respond to some of the comments here.

You can search for the virtues online.

First you couldn't debate all my topics. You could not deny that Islam treats women like crap or the rules such as always chewing 40 times.

Now then your counter-arguments are all silly. Again a religion should not dwell so heavily into politics. A religion is something that gives you fate and spiritual guidance, not something that should dictate how your government should be ran because it becomes a political ideology. But hey lets compare Islam versus man left to his own devices (religions that don't dwell into politics). For the past few centuries the entire middle east has been in huge conflict between Sunni and Shiite. The conflict still rages on today in proxy wars between Iran and Saudi with each of them following the most purest of Islam. But hey you prefer that so praise allah.

Then you think its funny why I think praying 5 times is wrong. What I find funny is that you believe in a god who basically treats you like a child. He basically plans your day for you and then has to call you to pray much like a mother calling her 5 year kid to come downstairs for dinner. A true god would not make prayer mandatory because he believe his followers would try to find him. We are grown adults not children and I believe god is not an amnesiac who needs reminder 5 times a day.

Finally the alcohol. I wont argue about the cons of drinking because that is an entire different debate but you did say alcohol makes you think differently. That was the point I was making. when people are drunk they start to question questions that they would not think. But a little bit of information for you. A majority of cults ban alcohol so that should tell you something about Islam.

Then you personally attacked me insinuating that I am a drunk and I don't have the ability to discuss politics and religion. People who have lost a debate resort to attack when they cant prove a point. You are like Ben Shapiro on that BBC interview. You're a very sad person.
08-31-2019 03:27 PM
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Post: #89
RE: Datasheet on Islam
I have left a few questions unanswered it seems.

I will try what I can.

(08-31-2019 07:04 AM)bk19xsa Wrote:  answer the criticism of spirituality vs ideology in Islam.

'Spirituality vs Ideology' needs its own datasheet in this thread. I need more information on what you consider spirituality and what you consider ideology.

I cannot guarantee another datasheet though. I do not know if my posts are helping anymore.



On Jesus

(08-31-2019 07:04 AM)bk19xsa Wrote:  First, you have to be a little more precise in showing the difference between Jesus and the prophet within Islam itself and then compare it to Christianity. Why is Jesus revered in Islam so much but still only a prophet?

Thank you very much for the pointer. Much appreciated.

TLDR: An original answer to this question is likely going to be very long, several hundreds if not thousands of words in length and will require time and care. I am not the best candidate to answer this question. I have linked to an article instead.

Pre-Christ Israelite religions as well as post-Christ religions differed on Jesus (pbuh).*
*The reason why I did not use the word 'Jew' is because it does not mean the same now as it meant then. Some ideas and definitions lose meaning over long enough time spans. The 'Jewish' 'sects' differed on a lot on beliefs e.g. Sadducees did not believe in an after life while Pharisees did. For me, this is grounds for them to be considered different religions.

After their rejection of Jesus (pbuh), Pharisaic Judaism underwent further developments and evolved into Rabbinical Judaism. Again, this is gross over-simplification.


Islam has a narrative and a belief and Jesus (pbuh) has a role in it. We do revere Jesus, but he is a Prophet and Messenger (to us, that is a very high position, the highest a human can reach) because higher than that would violate Monotheism, which is what the Abrahamic faith in its entirety is built on.

Jews have their reasons for their rejection.

Christians have theirs for deification.

So do Muslims for their belief in him (pbuh) as a Prophet and a Messenger of God.

A definitive answer to who/what Jesus was is a decisive answer to sincere followers of Abraham's path (pbuh). It is a solution to all of the three Abrahamic religions and their little fringe sects. Following on, the Second Coming is going to be very big.

"And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path."
Quran [43:61]

"The correct view concerning this phrase is that it refers to his descent before the Day of Resurrection" In summary of the exegesis
Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Here is a link to an article:

https://yaqeeninstitute.org/justin-parro...hristians/

The article is long. Long enough to be an attempt to answer this question.

I am not qualified enough to issue fatwas or translate yet, there are better educated Muslims to answer this question.

---

(08-31-2019 07:04 AM)bk19xsa Wrote:  Secondly, you should respond to the criticism that the religion seems enforced rather than set by example. You mention that the prophet set everything by example, which muslims call the 'Hudit'. Is it forced upon an individual?

'Hudit' may refer to Hudud or Hadith. Very likely Hadith. I will try to disambiguate and answer both.

On Hadith

The main sources on belief and Law and practice in Islam are the Qur'an (the book) and the Sunnah. The latter are the Traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) and are recorded as narrations. These narrations are the Hadith.

The word Sunnah means Tradition here.

Islamic acts and rituals fall under different categories e.g.:
  • Fard-Ain: Which are obligatory for individuals e.g. all have to pray
  • Fard-Kifayah: Obligatory for communities e.g. at least one has to study Islam
  • Sunnah Mu'akkadah: Emphasized traditions, can leave out occasionally but is a sin to neglect completely e.g. extra prayers
  • Sunnah Nafilah, Optional traditions, they are optional e.g. even more extra prayers

Not all traditions are obligatory, some of the traditions are optional.

They are not forced either (it is not criminal to neglect them, just a sin).

Some countries decide to make laws. This is very different.

On Hudud

I mentioned in the original post, like Halakhah in Judaism, Sharia in Islam prescribes punishments when certain boundaries (Hudud) are crossed. This being a Game forum, let us take the example of fornication (the same logic applies to other examples).

There is a prescribed punishment for the crime of fornication. In order to incur the punishment there have to be a minimum of four trust-worthy eye-witnesses for the same incident in public, a court and a qualified judge. The incident has to be seen in full unmistakable detail.

For the sin, one has to repent to God, try to never do it again, and to never speak of it in public. One is not allowed to speak of other peoples private affairs and advice has to be private and sincere.

Slander also has a prescribed punishment.

What are the effects on the society?

Firstly, private sins would not be affected. People do not willingly do things in front of four unconsenting individuals. People would have their private drama. Some would repent, others not so much.

View counts on some videos on some shady sites would get legal power in court.

Public indecency is political in nature without doubt. Most sins are personal and private.

For some crimes, in most cases, the state laws catch you well before you cross the boundaries of the Law (Sharia).

Also, there is a difference on what sin is and what crime is.

Again, nothing is forced here.

I hope that this answers some of the criticism.

On Qur'an

The language used in the Qur'an is very powerful and has an effect on the heart. Emotions rush out in tears on a warm face. It is not uncommon for some people to burst in tears during prayers in Ramadan in my Mosque. This is all the while narrating Biblical stories, discussing Law, morality and ethics and asking questions.




Qur'an Chapter 69 - The Inevitable Reality

TLDR: One of the people praying starts to crack and cry around 02:00 minute mark, the reciter cracks and cries at 02:30.

This is not to show off here, I have kept the superlative adjectives to a minimum here.

I had a discussion with an agnostic about this and the effects rubbed off on him.

It has a social effect on surrounding people and is spreads by osmosis.

We try to remain faithful and this gets spotted by non-Muslim friends.

"are they inevitably a 'if you can't win them...join them' religion. You get what I mean OP?" - I feel you!

On Rapid expansion

The Prophet (pbuh) left us with Islam and the Qur'an.

Rapid growth due to tribes converting and conquest of empires brought in many new converts. Some of these converts came in with their existing dialects, other formed new ones from their languages. Many people started speaking Arabic with broken grammar or a heavy accent. This lead to problems when reciting the Qur'an. Even misreading a vowel can lead to a disaster.

Also, spoken Arabic and the recited Arabic are not the same. The declensions are dropped in spoken.

Tajwid, Qur'anic phonology (study of sounds), was developed and books were written on Arabic grammar. The Arabic script was upgraded as well (vowel marks were invented to make vowels explicit).

These were the challenges of the past and their solutions.

(08-31-2019 07:04 AM)bk19xsa Wrote:  Lastly, something which I have noticed is that islam, given to the wrong, low intelligent people, can be used by them for wrong. This can go into geopolitics discussion, so I will not elaborate. The vice versa is also true. I did my grad school in one of the good southern US schools. I met this soon to be physicist: a proper bearded, priest type of Muslim. His dressing sense was severely strict as well. But if you sat down and talked astronomy with him, then he'll go non stop on the scientific wonders of the universe, extolling them. Now put that person in a village in some Paki/Afgani land and take away the intelligence, you might have a bonafide mujahadin on hands. OP, why is it like that in Islam?

High population growth today and illiteracy (and many other factors) are big challenges in modern times. There are many people who want to be pious, but do not know how! This leads to serious misunderstandings. Ignorance puts them in weak positions and some well funded political groups take advantage of this.

"mujahadin" were funded.

Ignorance does not have a very good effect on intelligence either. A lack of either makes one very confident, which is dangerous.

Islamic scholars study the tools for the religion (the language, the logic, etc) and the literature of schools of thought for decades before making opinions.

Ignorant people get confident and start quoting and making rulings on the spot.

Even outside of Islam, people misuse identity. I will not go into more detail on this.

والله اعلم
(And Allah knows best)

Personal

(08-31-2019 03:27 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  Then you think its funny why I think praying 5 times is wrong.

I did not mean to laugh at you.

A lot of people have said to me that waking up at times like 5 AM to pray is difficult. I understand the difficulty for someone who did not grow up doing it.

When you said, "Pray 5 times a day!", I felt that click and laughed.

(08-31-2019 03:27 PM)for.petes.sake Wrote:  Then you personally attacked me insinuating that I am a drunk and I don't have the ability to discuss politics and religion. People who have lost a debate resort to attack when they cant prove a point. You are like Ben Shapiro on that BBC interview. You're a very sad person.

I did not mean to insinuate that you are a drunk, neither did I mean to suggest that you do not have the ability to discuss politics and religion. Obviously you do!

Reading my answer again, it does look like I insinuated that. You are right to be angry. My apologies for the offense. I should have been clearer.

I remember some of my friends who used to go out and drink. They had memorized so many songs, probably entire albums. I can imagine the active hours spent doing the activities associated with drinking, like going out, singing and dancing the nights. Then there were the passive hours like learning how to dance and taking care of hang-overs the following day.

The time could be spent studying interesting things. Have you not seen all the words that end in -ology and not wanted to see what those were all about?

Picking up extra trades? Extra classes on classics in college? Hobbies?

I know people who continue doing this and, past a certain age, partying ages you fast. I agree with you, this is a different debate altogether.

We Muslims try to memorize chapters of the Qur'an and race with each other at that. After the lessons, at my place, we would study grammar and etymology and discuss the histories of strange lands far away. Interesting nations and empires never heard of.

The other day I had an interesting discussion with a Law graduate from Medina. It was something on 21st century tech and Sharia, anyways he said something after. He could speak Arabic but not English. He was sad that he could not talk to non-Muslims in their native language and connect.

You said something and it connected and I laughed.

Again, my apologies. I was not trying to attack.

This goes for everyone I have offended.

I will have a second look at the criticism though I will abstain from answering if there is a possibility of ending up in another debate.

Meanwhile I will reflect on what had just happened and reconsider whether my presence here is of any good.

I was compared to Ben Shapiro... that did not feel ok.

(08-31-2019 07:04 AM)bk19xsa Wrote:  In my experience, both having lived in and interacted with many muslims, I can say most of your spiritual points on mslims are based on what the muslim book asks.

This was the intention. Thank you.
08-31-2019 10:00 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Hilarious posts frankly - a guy who goes into the texts and lore, but then builds his own ideology around it that is also based on the experiences he has in his environment.

If it works for you fine and you can believe in it.

However Islam has long history and plenty of violent brutal texts - both in Quran as well as many strong Hadiths, that prove that it's a barbaric backwards political doctrine of war. As soon as they rule in an area, then the deterioration of that culture starts - looking at how Persians and the early Zoroastrans were the highest achievements after getting conquered, then deteriorated over time as Islam's cancer spread.

Obviously similar to communism - the less strict you live it as in the example of the Ottomans, the stronger you are. That is why they could so easily roll over the rest of the Muslim world - a solid reason for it being that the formerly strong mercenary Ottoman fighters had to import lots of fresh European blood as their own tribe got degenerate and weak by adopting Islam. Without the constant supply of European slaves then they would have not been able to uphold their power for so long. Also they did not adhere to Islam as closely as for example the Arabs in the Saudi Arabia of now.

There is little more to be added frankly. You cannot simply wave away all violent verses of the Quran as "quotes out of context". That is literally insane - unless you have an agenda and are blind. The belief in OP is so strong, that he does not want to see the reality of things. And remember this - if guys like him become 50% of Germany as they predict for 2100 to 2120 - then rue your day. They will sharia your head on a pike for even mentioning that Islam may not be the BESTEST RELIGION EVAR. (pronouncedin Millennial uptalk speak)

The Zionist use the dumb Muslims for their own goals. The marxists are useful idiots putting Muslims at the top of their oppression pyramid idiocracy. And the believing Muslims are blind to the debilitating effects of the religion itself.

Though sooner or later I am certain that one power will wipe out that religion off the earth. Too negative cults should not be allowed to exist. The Chinese are printing edited Qurans with comments on top of total surveillance of the population, tight restrictions on them.
09-01-2019 07:03 AM
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MusicForThePiano Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Food for thought, all of these desert religions seem to be contrived from a hallucination or series thereof. What was going on in Australia 2000 years ago? What about China? Russia? South America? Europe? North America? The sand people are easily startled indeed. How do you, OP, explain God and the angel revealing themselves to a man in the middle of a desert, the most lifeless place on earth, when there is boundless more geographical areas with their own occupants each living out their own faiths or cultures?

Your whole cult was created either by the Vatican or some sneaky sniveling sect of specials who have used your religion to wage for endlessly since its inception. That's the whole point, don't you see?

I'm in agreement with Tail Gunner, if you truly believe Islam to be righteous and peaceful and the true way to God, then you must go out in public and preach non-violence against non-believers. You must preach against conversion, you must take a fatwa on your life from the evil ones if you are in the right, it is the only way to convince people. And you know what? If you do, others will follow suit. Lead by example. You must somehow undo the aggressive principles of expand and conquer. I doubt you will do any of this, which just makes it all the more rhetorical, but at least now you will have these words in your head, and it will take hold of you if you are even slightly philosophically empathetic.
09-01-2019 09:24 AM
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SlickyBoy Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-27-2019 01:48 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  Technically speaking, mortgages are not usurious, because the real interest rate (at least in the past decade or two) is close to 0. Real interest rate is defined as the nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate.

Inflation in the West has been around 4%-5%, so quite a bit higher than the official numbers which peg inflation around 2%-3%. Mortgage rates are around 3%-4%, so when you get a mortgage, you are practically getting an interest free loan, that's why it's not usurious.
The official, published inflation rate is a lie for many reasons, including the fact that since the Carter administration it doesn't even factor the cost of fuel and food. If it were honest, adjustments to federal entitlement payments such as social security and federal retirements would be far higher - something Uncle Sam obviously doesn't want.

According to one widely cited economist, the real figure is higher by several points.

While mortgage interest can be deducted from your taxes and makes a 5% rate look more like 4%, it is not exactly "interest free." Even if the property fortuitously increases in value, factor in the cost of interest, property taxes and repairs over the period of ownership and any supposed windfall diminishes considerably. A non-usury based mortgage also wouldn't make the initial mortgage payment nearly 100% interest to the lender, yet that's the norm.

Best case scenario versus renting is you get most of your money back, though sellers bragging about their results fail to calculate the complete picture.

Hence, the best part about owning is the "forced savings plan" aspect, which for many people is good medicine given the temptations of our stuff-driven lifestyles. But there are other ways to live cheaply and save money, none of which benefit the financial industry like the hockey stick chart of usury based amortization does. Factor the realities of hitching up with a stuff-driven western woman and living frugally is a task worthy of Sisyphus himself.


(08-27-2019 01:10 PM)Manbeline Wrote:  In truth, I should have just bought a cheaper car, have it paid off in one month, and be happy with a less ideal car. Lesson learned. I'm young, I have to make these mistakes.

Bingo. Remember that every time you pay any interest, especially on a depreciable consumer product, you are making (((someone))) else rich.

Probably someone who hates you.

That right there is motivation enough to live differently.

Twitter: @_slickyboy
Occasional contributor at Return of Kings (while it lasted)
09-01-2019 11:48 AM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Still nothing on where Islam was taught before the 7th century. It wasn't, any more than Joseph Smith's restored gospel was taught before 400AD. There's just no evidence of it, whereas there is massive evidence what was taught is what we have today.

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." -1 John 2:22-23
09-01-2019 07:12 PM
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Sherman Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Plethon was one of the most renowned philosophers of the late Byzantine Empire. In 1428, he was commanded by the penultimate emperor of the Byzantine Empire to advise a delegation to the Council of Florence to reconcile the East and West and get support to fight the Ottomans.

While in Italy, Plethon gave lectures on Plato (largely unknown by the West at this time) and is credited as being the most important influence in initiating the Western Renaissance.

Plethon proposed a new state religion in line with Platonism and a hierarchical pantheon of Greek gods. He provided a detailed plan for the reconciliation of the two churches in order to secure Western Europe's support against the Ottomans.

It is worth contemplating that if Plethon's proposal had been accepted, the Muslims would never have been able to take Constantinople and their advance most likely eclipsed in history.

Plethon's influence was still significant. By initiating the Renaissance, Plethon enabled the West to develop sufficient science and technology to stop the advance of Islam into Europe.


   

Rico... Sauve....
(This post was last modified: 09-01-2019 11:36 PM by Sherman.)
09-01-2019 11:16 PM
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Bienvenuto Offline
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
OP:

Please give your commentary on this video..

Like you. she is seeking to explain Islam.



09-01-2019 11:55 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islam is the motherload of bad ideas to paraphrase Sam Harris - even if I don't like that guy.

But he is right on that. Obviously Judaism is also a concoction of a supremacist religion, but that is another topic.

Islam is the utter and complete bottom of the world cults.

A few useful idiots getting teary-eyed over the emotional brainwashing recital of the Quran means nothing. It means nothing, because the very act of public group prayer at sleep-disrupting time-frames creates a form of brainwashing.

It's essentially the same to all other cults:









When the rubber meets the road is when the usual white liberal idiots listen to the mainstream media and guys like OP who tell you dumb simplifications of the wonders of Islam - then they go on a bike-tour through the Muslim world and end up dead or beheaded:





That couple that was killed in Tajikistan had a blog going on. And they reported countless relentless hostile acts starting in Marocco all throughout the Muslim world. And still they would not bend down and admit that their Religion of Peace narrative was not correct.

And that is why terrible ideas need to be shut down, all mosques need to be torn down and all Muslims shown the door or asked to convert - no exceptions. Most of you will witness the shitstorm that will be unleashed in countries like France or Germany where Muslims are destined to reach the majority.

OP's statements are akin to a guy telling you of all the good things that Communism has done - all while brushing away the mass murder, mountain of skull, hunger and poverty.

"All negative verses in the lore are taken out of context gents!"
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2019 04:33 AM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
09-02-2019 04:31 AM
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Post: #97
RE: Datasheet on Islam
This forum is completely mind-controlled at this point. Mind-control so powerful making fun of it could be considered unethical.
09-02-2019 04:45 AM
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kruger41 Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(09-02-2019 04:45 AM)duality Wrote:  This forum is completely mind-controlled at this point. Mind-control so powerful making fun of it could be considered unethical.

Thanks for the heads up, guy.
09-02-2019 10:50 AM
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SlickyBoy
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(08-30-2019 01:24 PM)mikado Wrote:  This conversation is pointless. No one is gonna bulge even for a little bit.

Wrong thread is why. Here you go

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-3335-page-264.html

...You're welcome

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
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"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
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(This post was last modified: 09-02-2019 11:12 AM by PapayaTapper.)
09-02-2019 11:11 AM
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mikado Offline
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(09-02-2019 11:11 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 01:24 PM)mikado Wrote:  This conversation is pointless. No one is gonna bulge even for a little bit.

Wrong thread is why. Here you go

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-3335-page-264.html

...You're welcome

Hahaha, well played.

"To budge"!

But thanks for providing us a link to ... "help us consider what we want in a wife"

Je suis le roi du monde!!!
(This post was last modified: 09-02-2019 12:56 PM by mikado.)
09-02-2019 12:52 PM
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