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Datasheet on Islam
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #176
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islam belongs banned worldwide and there was one direction of Islam. The US soldiers were still kidnapped and enslaved by 1777 and waged wars against the Muslim sheisters some 20 years later.

And that some Christian countries at times cooperated with Muslim ones as they waged wars against other Christians - that is no proof of any willing cooperation. Most Christians again did not know much about Muslims except tales of harems and large armies. The people who found out more about it, knew that it was a total shitshow. The hundreds of wars waged against Europeeans, the millions of enslaved Europeans and Africans were not amused by it all.

When I hear this crusade argument of the few crusade I state that there should been some 490 more crusades to make it even with Islam.

Everyone who finds out more about Islam starts to despis and hate it as the worst religion on Earth.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2019 03:46 PM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
12-23-2019 03:42 PM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #177
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-05-2019 03:16 AM)y2k Wrote:  I am not Jewish, I am a Muslim of European origin. After 9/11, I was super offensive to Muslims until one of my friends mentioned that they believe in Jesús too (pbuh) but differently. Having grown up in Christianity but never really accepting the doctrines of the Original Sin, Christ's sacrifice, Trinity etc. Islam gave me an alternative view on the Abrahamic story.

You remind me of that OskurPekenyo guy who was on here in the past.

Anyway, I'm always amazed when I see people compelled by this Dawah argument that Muslims "believe in Jesus too." Yes, sort of like how Docetics, Arians, and Gnostics "believe in Jesus, too."

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." -1 John 2:22
12-23-2019 09:35 PM
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Post: #178
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Indeed, even Christ asked, "Who do you say that I am?"

This differentiates all the deceivers.
12-23-2019 10:45 PM
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y2k Away
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Post: #179
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-23-2019 03:42 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  Everyone who finds out more about Islam starts to despise and hate it as the worst religion on Earth.

There are many ethnic groups who are predominantly Muslim, many of them known for their courage and strength. If Islam was half as bad as you say, then these men would have put an end to this a long time ago. Many of Sunni Islam's scholars from Arabic grammar and logic to Law, Jurisprudence and Theology were of Persian origin. They would not help to spread a religion as bad as you say it is, they spent their lives "finding out more about Islam", and yet, put effort in spreading it.

Simeon, you know this and yet you are spamming lies.

This is what Muslims have to deal with.

This is why we cannot have things like Alt-Twitter or Alt-Youtube ever in our lives. They get taken over and filled with reprehensible content.

I will add some more info to this thread in a little bit of time.

A Datasheet on Islam - A description of the religion
Islamic ethics - Old Testament like (Mosaic Laws etc.)
Abrahamic Monotheism - An account from both Islamic and Jewish traditions
Short Chapters in Qur'an - A list of chapters between 5 and 30 minutes long
12-28-2019 07:09 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #180
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Islamic Jurisprudance: "Slit the belly open of your wife and be praised by the prophet, because she insulted the prophet."

The spammers of lies are the Muslims like you. If Islam depended on the spread via virtue or wisdom, then it would have died after the first 10 years where Mohammed got 140 followers. That sounds about right.

When he initiated conversion via the sword, then this was far more successful ending with over 70.000.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 08:01 PM by Simeon_Strangelight.)
12-28-2019 07:48 PM
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y2k Away
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Post: #181
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Explain to me how I am a "relentless veganism pushing" spammer of lies.

How old are you roughly? How long ago where you living in western Germanic Europe? When was Germany ever 8% Muslim and where were you then?

A Datasheet on Islam - A description of the religion
Islamic ethics - Old Testament like (Mosaic Laws etc.)
Abrahamic Monotheism - An account from both Islamic and Jewish traditions
Short Chapters in Qur'an - A list of chapters between 5 and 30 minutes long
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 08:29 PM by y2k.)
12-28-2019 08:23 PM
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tomtud Offline
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Post: #182
RE: Datasheet on Islam
In the words of Christopher hitchens (Islam) it makes immense claims, for itself,and demands deference and respect from non believers..... there is nothing in its teachings to justify such arrogance”.

Other quotes from his book. God is not great...
Islam... it builds upon Jewish and Christian predecessors (plagiarized)
-almost all of the tradition is oral and in Arabic.
-the prophet died in 632....and the first account of his life was set down 120 years later by Ibn Ishaq......whose original was lost and reworked by ibn Hisham who died in 834. So many Muslim soldiers died in the first caliphate who had the Koran lodged in memory since it was orally transmitted. So bits and pieces of stories, some true, some hearsay were given to Zaid ibn thabit.
Then you had the 4th caliph Ali, founder of Shiism etc, so, you have fighting over discrepancy accounts of the Koran.
- then this leads us to the 6 hadiths. Which is a lot of hearsay. A told B who heard it from C who learned it from D.
The compiler of the hadiths Bukhari died 238 years after the prophet died.

As for Islamic law,,, Reza aslan notes “by the 9th century, Muslim legal scholars were attempting to formulate and codify islamic via ijtihad, they were to separate hadiths into categories. 1. Lies told for material gain and lies told for ideological advantage.

Ok, to be fair. I can critique other religions as well, but it’s a data sheet on Islam. We need god more than he needs us. So no need to lie. If taqiya and other tactics are used to mislead and lie to people, then it’s hard to believe what is the truth and what is a lie of lies are within the faith.
12-28-2019 10:11 PM
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eradicator Offline
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Post: #183
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Here is a recent photo of y2k

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Team yoga pants
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UoeQOC-5iw&t=143s[/video]
12-28-2019 10:34 PM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #184
RE: Datasheet on Islam
I didn't see anyone questioning the courage of Muslims, but let's get this to the key issue: Islam claims to be the fulfillment of the Old and New Testament and yet the Quran contradicts these Scriptures at every turn and presents a Jesus completely disconnected from the unforgettable Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels spoke with authority and piercing, eloquent words, dropping one memorable line after another. I mean, just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7).
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2019 12:36 AM by Athanasius.)
12-29-2019 12:30 AM
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bucky Offline
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Post: #185
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-29-2019 12:30 AM)Athanasius Wrote:  I didn't see anyone questioning the courage of Muslims, but let's get this to the key issue: Islam claims to be the fulfillment of the Old and New Testament and yet the Quran contradicts these Scriptures at every turn and presents a Jesus completely disconnected from the unforgettable Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels spoke with authority and piercing, eloquent words, dropping one memorable line after another. I mean, just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7).

My understanding is that Muslims would accept things like the sermon on the mount, they just think that St. Paul added all the stuff about Jesus being the Son of God. Hence why He's always called "Jesus son of Mary" in the Koran.

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12-29-2019 09:53 AM
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Tail Gunner Offline
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Post: #186
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-29-2019 09:53 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(12-29-2019 12:30 AM)Athanasius Wrote:  I didn't see anyone questioning the courage of Muslims, but let's get this to the key issue: Islam claims to be the fulfillment of the Old and New Testament and yet the Quran contradicts these Scriptures at every turn and presents a Jesus completely disconnected from the unforgettable Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels spoke with authority and piercing, eloquent words, dropping one memorable line after another. I mean, just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7).

My understanding is that Muslims would accept things like the sermon on the mount, they just think that St. Paul added all the stuff about Jesus being the Son of God. Hence why He's always called "Jesus son of Mary" in the Koran.

This is exactly why it is true that Christians and Muslims worship different gods. The God of Christianity is a triune God where God sent His Son, as both man and God, to Earth in propitiation for our sins. Islam rejects that God. Muslims worship an unrelated fictional god.
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2019 10:02 AM by Tail Gunner.)
12-29-2019 10:01 AM
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Post: #187
RE: Datasheet on Islam
The God of Islam is closer to Satan. And since some Jews worship Satanic realities as well, then it's closer to them than to Christianity.

Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shintoism, Christianity - those are more benevolent religions even if Hinduism is also designed for population control for the elite, at least it's not designed for war, conquest via all means including selling you moronic stories of how peaceful Islam is.

But when you point out the truth including like some Imams like the Imam of Peace Tawhidi, then they are all aggressive on you. The Imam says that Islam is seeped in blood and it will take centuries of reform. I have no such delusion. That is baked into the fabric of Islam. You have to ban the entire crap worldwide or leave them in their shitholes and never let anyone settle anywhere else.

"How dare you claim that Islam is not peaceful - I'll kill you!" Just recently a Saudi "greatest ally" soldier killed a few because he felt "insulted". Sure - Muslims take quickly offense, are even allowed to murder their daughters if she blasphemes. It's the most peaceful religion of all.
12-29-2019 10:14 AM
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Post: #188
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-29-2019 09:53 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(12-29-2019 12:30 AM)Athanasius Wrote:  I didn't see anyone questioning the courage of Muslims, but let's get this to the key issue: Islam claims to be the fulfillment of the Old and New Testament and yet the Quran contradicts these Scriptures at every turn and presents a Jesus completely disconnected from the unforgettable Jesus of the Gospels. The Jesus of the Gospels spoke with authority and piercing, eloquent words, dropping one memorable line after another. I mean, just read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7).

My understanding is that Muslims would accept things like the sermon on the mount, they just think that St. Paul added all the stuff about Jesus being the Son of God. Hence why He's always called "Jesus son of Mary" in the Koran.

Yes, I've heard those attempts to divide Paul from the Gospels, and to play the whole liberal game of arbitrarily excising the stuff they don't like. But that only shows their ignorance of the Scriptures and of how the Bible was transmitted. The book of Matthew alone calls Jesus the son of God 7-8 times.
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2019 03:48 PM by Athanasius.)
12-29-2019 03:47 PM
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Post: #189
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-28-2019 10:11 PM)tomtud Wrote:  In the words of Christopher hitchens (Islam) it makes immense claims, for itself,and demands deference and respect from non believers..... there is nothing in its teachings to justify such arrogance”.

Other quotes from his book. God is not great...
Islam... it builds upon Jewish and Christian predecessors (plagiarized)
-almost all of the tradition is oral and in Arabic.
-the prophet died in 632....and the first account of his life was set down 120 years later by Ibn Ishaq......whose original was lost and reworked by ibn Hisham who died in 834. So many Muslim soldiers died in the first caliphate who had the Koran lodged in memory since it was orally transmitted. So bits and pieces of stories, some true, some hearsay were given to Zaid ibn thabit.
Then you had the 4th caliph Ali, founder of Shiism etc, so, you have fighting over discrepancy accounts of the Koran.
- then this leads us to the 6 hadiths. Which is a lot of hearsay. A told B who heard it from C who learned it from D.
The compiler of the hadiths Bukhari died 238 years after the prophet died.

As for Islamic law,,, Reza aslan notes “by the 9th century, Muslim legal scholars were attempting to formulate and codify islamic via ijtihad, they were to separate hadiths into categories. 1. Lies told for material gain and lies told for ideological advantage.

Ok, to be fair. I can critique other religions as well, but it’s a data sheet on Islam. We need god more than he needs us. So no need to lie. If taqiya and other tactics are used to mislead and lie to people, then it’s hard to believe what is the truth and what is a lie of lies are within the faith.

You are welcome to critique Islam in this thread, I will try to answer and share what I can.

We Sunnis do not do Taqiyya with our Creed and Law, our religion is transparent.

Hitchens comes from a line of pro-Atheism pop-philosophers and Aslan is an interesting one, he is not a Muslim and seems to believe in a concept called "Wahdat-il-Wujud" or Pantheism. This is a one world religion with the Universe as the central god.

Their books are are trying to push their world views instead of discussing religion.

Is almost all of the tradition oral and in Arabic?

Firstly, the Qur'an was memorized as revealed and written down and collected on whatever materials were available at the time of revelation.

Many in this forum have not heard of the Isnad system devised and maintained by the Muslims. We have detailed biographies of 100,000s if not millions of men and women involved in the religion and the Traditions (Hadith). The Hadiths are also graded by their frequency in their chain, many are mass narrated at each level and so it was impossible for them to be affected by the transmitters.

It is much much more than just oral.

The Muslims were very serious about preserving the Message.

The Founder of Shi'ism

Ali never founded Shi'ism.

Shi'ism has two roots, one theological and one political which interact to create the heterodox sects we now know as the Shi'a. The theology was was started by Abdullah Ibn Saba' the exiled Ex-Jew who introduced Gnostic ideas into the Muslim community. He was excommunicated and exiled from Judaism for this reason (spreading heresies in the Jewish community) and depending on different narrations was again excommunicated from Islam by Ali and either exiled, or executed. His heresies would keep recombining and resurfacing in different Shi'a sects over 1300 years. He exists in both Sunni and Shi'a narrations.

What they present of their theology and practices seems innocent to the normal Sunni, but what they have in their books (which define their creed) is theologically irreconcilable with the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the basis of Sunni Islam). They do Taqiyya to keep this theology away from Sunnis. Taqiyya as theological dissimulation is a Shi'a concept, Sunnis do not do this.

Again, Sunni Islam is transparent, everything from the sources, to the reasoning and the codification is visible to everyone.

I will leave further research of heterodoxy in the Muslim World to those interested, this is beyond the datasheet on Islam.

A Datasheet on Islam - A description of the religion
Islamic ethics - Old Testament like (Mosaic Laws etc.)
Abrahamic Monotheism - An account from both Islamic and Jewish traditions
Short Chapters in Qur'an - A list of chapters between 5 and 30 minutes long
01-05-2020 04:37 PM
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y2k Away
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Post: #190
RE: Datasheet on Islam
The Ethical System

In order for you to understand Muslim politics, you should try to understand the fundamental motives behind it - the belief and the ethical system. The belief is covered in the OP.

Link to the OP for the Datasheet

Let us first compare Islam to two Judeo-Christian concepts, the Noahide Laws and the Mosaic Laws. The first is primarily found in the Talmud but they are solidly based in the Old Testament. The second requires no introduction to a Christian. For those who would like to skip to the conclusion of the comparison, all of the laws are covered in Islam.

The comparison:

Noahide Laws
  • Prohibition of Idolatry
  • Prohibition of Blasphemy
  • Prohibition of Sexual Immorality
  • Prohibition of Homicide
  • Prohibition of Theft
  • Prohibition of Limb of a Living Creature
  • Establishment of Courts of Justice

The Mosaic Laws (Ten Commandments)
  • Thou shalt have no other gods before me
  • Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
  • Thou shalt not thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord thy God in vain
  • Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy*
  • Honor thy father and thy mother
  • Thou shalt not murder
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery
  • Thou shalt not steal
  • Thou shalt not bear false witness
  • Thou shalt not covet

The first two Noahide laws and the first three Mosaic laws were covered in beliefs in the OP. I will add some more on them in another post.

Quran Wrote:6:151 Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason."

6:152 And do not approach the orphan's property except in a way that is best until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and weight in justice. We do not charge any soul except [with that within] its capacity. And when you testify, be just, even if [it concerns] a near relative. And the covenant of Allah fulfill. This has He instructed you that you may remember.

6:153 And, [moreover], this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow [other] ways, for you will be separated from His way. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous.

Verse 6:151 covers the prohibition of Idolatry, Sexual Immorality (including Adultery), Homicide (including Murder) and the commandment to Honor your parents.

Verse 6:152 covers Stealing, Justice (Establishment of Courts of Justice) and saying the Truth (prohibition of false witness).

Quran Wrote:4:29 O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful.

Verse 4:29 covers Stealing and Homicide (including Suicide).

Quran Wrote:4:154 And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant.

Verse 4:29 covers the Sabbath *for the Israelites.

Quran Wrote:2:224 And do not make [your oath by] Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Verse 2:224 covers Blasphemy and taking the name of the Lord in vain.

Quran Wrote:4:32 And do not wish for that by which Allah has made some of you exceed others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah of his bounty. Indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing.

Verse 4:32 covers Coveting.

All of these values are covered in Islam.

As a result, 25% of the people on earth today are Monotheists, start their prayers by praising God (minimum 5 times a day) and live according to the values mentioned in the Noahide Laws and Mosaic Laws.

Very generally speaking, the main rights and obligations covered in Islamic morality are:
  • Rights of God
  • Rights of the Self
  • Rights of the Others
  • Rights of the Resources

The first covers the relationship between Man and The Creator which includes Monotheism, Obedience (of revelation and guidance), Sincerity and Worship.

The rights that the Self has over Man are that he not follow his desires and whims outside of the permitted and not knowingly cause himself harm and includes the prohibition on intoxicants and drugs, overindulgence (obesity, promiscuity etc) and extremism (material asceticism, extreme suppression of desire etc) among others. Taking good care of the Self (cleanliness, social honor etc) is a virtue and good is still good. There is a balance between the rights that the Self has over Man and those of the Others (or society), and the latter is very wide and deep. Destructive means of profit, such as, Lying, Cheating, Theft, Bribery and Usury among others are banned. Generally, acts that cause great loss for the many, for the small gain of the few are prohibited and condemned as crimes. This is the pattern in business, economy, gender etc.

The resources themselves have a right over Man - to used for noble causes in Worship of God and for the benefit of the Self, and the Others, and to not be wasted and disrespected.

Islam recognizes and appreciates, and protects from violations Religion (Monotheism), Life (and its sanctity), The Mind (from Intoxicants, Gambling and Superstition), Lineage (Identity and Honor from Immorality) and Property - the five necessities for the people.

25% of the people (Muslims) today, praise (compare 'alhamdulillah' with 'hallelujah') and worship God, value the values mentioned in the Mosaic and Noahide Laws and, there is nothing to stop them from seeking their individual National interests.

This is a result of Islam.

A Datasheet on Islam - A description of the religion
Islamic ethics - Old Testament like (Mosaic Laws etc.)
Abrahamic Monotheism - An account from both Islamic and Jewish traditions
Short Chapters in Qur'an - A list of chapters between 5 and 30 minutes long
01-05-2020 04:56 PM
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Post: #191
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-23-2019 03:42 PM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  Islam belongs banned worldwide and there was one direction of Islam. The US soldiers were still kidnapped and enslaved by 1777 and waged wars against the Muslim sheisters some 20 years later.

And that some Christian countries at times cooperated with Muslim ones as they waged wars against other Christians - that is no proof of any willing cooperation. Most Christians again did not know much about Muslims except tales of harems and large armies. The people who found out more about it, knew that it was a total shitshow. The hundreds of wars waged against Europeeans, the millions of enslaved Europeans and Africans were not amused by it all.

When I hear this crusade argument of the few crusade I state that there should been some 490 more crusades to make it even with Islam.

Everyone who finds out more about Islam starts to despis and hate it as the worst religion on Earth.

Bro, not even Samuel Huntington – the author of The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, who popularised the idea that there is a 'clash' between Western and non-Western civilisations back in the 1990s – believed his own thesis by his life's end.

In a 2004 issue of Foreign Policy, Huntington stated that the greatest 'threat' to the West came from...Mexico. This is because he identified the United States as the West's 'core' country, and he posited that dark-skinned, Catholic Mexicans would fundamentally alter the character and institutions of this core Western nation.

Interestingly, even in the 1990s, Huntington said that the Islamic 'threat' to the West was temporary, borne of high male unemployment rates and political frustration in certain Arab countries. It was to last no more than 50 years, possibly less depending on the demographic situation in the Middle East; he changed his own hypothesis barely a decade into it.

If you want to be more Catholic than the Pope, go ahead, but according to the late Pope himself, it's a colossal waste of time.
01-06-2020 12:25 PM
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Post: #192
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Serious question for a Muslim. Many moons ago I used to troll Dawahs and I've never been able to get a decent answer for this. If you believe in the prophets of the old and new testaments, and things such as the Mosaic laws, why don't you include those texts in the Quran, like in order, and have a combination of Old and New Testament, plus Quran all compounded into one book. You know kind of like how Christians use the New Testament but still rely on the Old Testament to make sense of the New? Why don't you guys do that? Wouldn't it make sense to include those, and have them to point back to show where they went wrong?

Islam teaches the Biblical texts were from divine revelation. Why exclude them? I get you think they've been corrupted which is why Mohammed wrote what he wrote as the "final messenger". But to me that tells me you've downgraded God much like many Christians do and are essentially saying God is to stupid to successfully bring us his word the first time. You either have to re do it, as in the case of Mohammed, and/or learn from wise holier than thou biblical or quranic scholars to understand the "true" meaning. Don't make any sense.

God all powerful most merciful can do anything, create the universe and life but can't get us his words? Come on.

Dreams are like horses; they run wild on the earth. Catch one and ride it. Throw a leg over and ride it for all its worth.
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(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 03:58 PM by Spectrumwalker.)
01-06-2020 03:56 PM
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Post: #193
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Don't stop there, it gets even better when wine at first is "somewhat profitable" and then later on is banned but mostly through support in Hadith, though mentioned with gambling in terms of being "haram". By words that came directly from God via the Angel Gabriel to Mo ... that still had to be abrogated. This is always the funny dualism of Islam, that two things that are contradictory can be true, but in the context of naskh [abrogation], one can after the fact say that something was somehow always so.

This is where reconstructionist religions, as spectrum points out, are a fraud. Not only do they make little sense typically (oh look, I just got another revelation to enjoy more slaves, or more wives, or to condone my bad behavior!) they are impossibly challenged by reason, unfalsifiable in ways that are nonsensical. That's why Joseph Smith and Muhammad used these methods.

The best part (worst?) of Islam is when people try to justify the life of Muhammad, and actually use the same words the very Quran uses about him (the best example, mode of conduct, etc). On what basis should any man, examining his Muhammad's life, say that he was a good example?

If Christians are totally lying about who Jesus is, or even if he didn't even exist (of course He did) and is a figment of their imagination (just for the thought experiment), he still is the complete opposite of Muhammad in terms of who he was, what he did, and what he taught.

On that, hang all of Islam.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 10:40 PM by Kid Twist.)
01-06-2020 10:40 PM
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Post: #194
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(01-06-2020 10:40 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  On what basis should any man, examining his Muhammad's life, say that he was a good example?

Yes indeed, Muhammad, Islam's perfect man, married his "wife" Aisha at the age of six, but refrained from raping her until she was nine.

If Muhammad-the-pedofile is Islam's perfect man, then this example of Islamic perfection explains much about the ceaseless horrific acts of Muslims over the last millennia.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 12:12 AM by Tail Gunner.)
01-07-2020 12:11 AM
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Post: #195
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(12-23-2019 09:35 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  Anyway, I'm always amazed when I see people compelled by this Dawah argument that Muslims "believe in Jesus too." Yes, sort of like how Docetics, Arians, and Gnostics "believe in Jesus, too."

It was not that I found out that Muslims believe in Jesus (pbuh) and then suddenly I converted... so do the Mormons with their radically divergent theology (from the Old Testament). Jesus was the door, through which I peeked at Islam, and eventually entered.

I studied Islam and some other religions and then prayed to God to show me guidance to the true path, and it was Islam.

Quote:He whom Allah guides aright, there is none to mislead him, and he who is led astray, there is none to guide him (aright)
Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Hadith 57

After I decided on studying Islam more (hesitantly), but before I started practicing, I started to listen to the Qur'an:

Verse 38:27 answers Absurdism.

Quran Wrote:38:27 And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire.

38:28 Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear Allah like the wicked?

38:29 [This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded.

Verse 37:50 refers to the inhabitants of Paradise having a conversation.

Quran Wrote:37:50 And they will approach one another, inquiring of each other.

37:51 A speaker among them will say, "Indeed, I had a companion [on earth]

37:52 Who would say, 'Are you indeed of those who believe

37:53 That when we have died and become dust and bones, we will indeed be recompensed?'"

37:54 He will say, "Would you [care to] look?"

37:55 And he will look and see him in the midst of the Hellfire.

37:56 He will say, "By Allah, you almost ruined me.

Full Chapter 37 - The Ranged Ones - 24:30 minutes long

The Abrahamic Religion (this account is found in both Muslim and Jewish sources)
Named after the Patriarch and Prophet, Abraham (pbuh), the Abrahamic religions are the group with the largest number of followers and so are the geo-politically most relevant group of religions. Most of the adherents of the Abrahamic religions genuinely believe in what is presented (God, angels and Judgment Day etc) in their respective scriptures.

After the creation of Adam (pbuh), after the flood and Noah's ark (pbuh), in the city of Ur in the Chaldees, ancient Near-East, there was a boy (pbuh) whose father was an idol-maker. He would observe the making of these idols and then ask why they could not act nor react, and then mock them, he would be told off for this. He rejected the worship of idols and eventually, as a young man, after a heated conversation, this caused him to leave his father home.

The man (pbuh) then searched for the truth and found it, he found the one worthy of worship - God. His mission now was to share this message of Monotheism with the people.

This man was Abraham (pbuh) and he is followed by billions today.

The one concept that would set Abrahamism apart from the rest of the world religions is that godhood (i.e. right to be worshipped) belongs to The Creator alone, hence:

No god but God

Which is the two of the Mosaic Laws and the first of the Noahide Laws. Islam also claims that submission to God was the religion of the prophets from Adam through to Noah and Abraham through to Jesus and Muhammad (pbut).

There is no doubt that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (pbut).

The usual argument against the rejection of polytheism and cultural superstition is the appeal to Patriotism and Nationalism:

Quran Wrote:21:51 And We had certainly given Abraham his sound judgement before, and We were of him well-Knowing

21:52 When he said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoted?"

21:53 They said, "We found our fathers worshippers of them."

Quran Wrote:5:104 And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided?

And the appeal to Power:

Quran Wrote:34:34 And We did not send into a city any warner except that its affluent said, "Indeed we, in that with which you were sent, are disbelievers."

34:35 And they said, "We are more [than the believers] in wealth and children, and we are not to be punished."

34:36 Say, "Indeed, my Lord extends provision for whom He wills and restricts [it], but most of the people do not know."

Summary
A recap of the Datasheet:

Link to the OP for the Datasheet
Link to a brief introduction to Islamic Ethics

Islam is an Abrahamic religion with ethics similar to those in the Old Testament (Mosaic Law, Noahide Law, etc). The six articles of belief (which all Muslims believe) are:
  • Belief in God (Monotheism)
  • Belief in His Angels
  • Belief in His Scripture
  • Belief in His Prophets
  • Belief in the Day of Judgment and Paradise and Hell
  • Belief in Divine Predestination whether is involves good or bad

And the Five Pillars which make one a Muslim are:
  • Testimony of Faith - No god but God, Muhammad (pbuh) is his Messenger
  • Daily Prayer - Five times a day ritual prayer
  • Fast - The fast from dawn to dusk on the holy month of Ramadan
  • Tithing* - Yearly 2.5% of one's property to the poor of one's own community
  • Pilgrimage* - Once in a life pilgrimage to Mecca
*For those able

I will be taking another short break before adding some more.

A Datasheet on Islam - A description of the religion
Islamic ethics - Old Testament like (Mosaic Laws etc.)
Abrahamic Monotheism - An account from both Islamic and Jewish traditions
Short Chapters in Qur'an - A list of chapters between 5 and 30 minutes long
01-07-2020 07:20 PM
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Post: #196
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(01-07-2020 07:20 PM)y2k Wrote:  
(12-23-2019 09:35 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  Anyway, I'm always amazed when I see people compelled by this Dawah argument that Muslims "believe in Jesus too." Yes, sort of like how Docetics, Arians, and Gnostics "believe in Jesus, too."

It was not that I found out that Muslims believe in Jesus (pbuh) and then suddenly I converted... so do the Mormons with their radically divergent theology (from the Old Testament). Jesus was the door, through which I peeked at Islam, and eventually entered.

I studied Islam and some other religions and then prayed to God to show me guidance to the true path, and it was Islam.

The LDS consider the KJV New Testament to be Scripture as well. And really, most world religions mention Jesus. The point I've been trying to get across is that the Biblical NT is intimately familiar with the Biblical OT. Islam, meanwhile, claims to a final revelation and tells us to refer to the earlier texts (the Christian Bible), and yet gone from the Quran is the vivid Jesus of the New Testament, speaking words of incredible power and economy. Yes, there's a character in the Quran called Jesus, but you can't reconcile that character with the Jesus of the Gospels any more than you can reconcile the Jesus of the various 2nd century+ Gnostic gospels with the Jesus unique to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Moreover, the Quran shows no understanding of central Biblical teachings in the Gospels or the various epistles.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 10:49 PM by Athanasius.)
01-07-2020 10:48 PM
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Post: #197
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(01-07-2020 10:48 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  Moreover, the Quran shows no understanding of central Biblical teachings in the Gospels or the various epistles.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Do you mean the fact that the Koran teaches that Jesus wasn't the Son of God and that God is a being that cannot have children in any sense, or do you mean that the morality that the Koran teaches is significantly different from Christian morality? I read an English translation of the Koran years ago and, to be fair, I don't remember much of the specific morality of Islam being different from Christianity.

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01-08-2020 12:24 AM
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Post: #198
RE: Datasheet on Islam
(01-08-2020 12:24 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 10:48 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  Moreover, the Quran shows no understanding of central Biblical teachings in the Gospels or the various epistles.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Do you mean the fact that the Koran teaches that Jesus wasn't the Son of God and that God is a being that cannot have children in any sense, or do you mean that the morality that the Koran teaches is significantly different from Christian morality? I read an English translation of the Koran years ago and, to be fair, I don't remember much of the specific morality of Islam being different from Christianity.

The Bible does teach Christ's deity and sonship, while the Quran denies both, but what I'm saying is if you read the mentions of Christ in the Quran and compare them to His many monologues in the New Testament, they are simply different personalities. Read the Sermon on the Mount and just consider all the famous, unforgettable sayings in just Matt 5-7. That vivid personality is lost in the Quran. Moreover, the Quran claims to be the next revelation and yet it is completely disconnected from the New Testament, whereas the NT is intimately connected with the OT and spends much time quoting it. The Quran reads like a book written by someone who didn't understand or have much familiarity with either the OT or NT, other than maybe a few sayings he heard here and there.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 12:51 AM by Athanasius.)
01-08-2020 12:49 AM
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Post: #199
RE: Datasheet on Islam
Notice that just like the banned Oskuro, y2k has no mention or defense of the person, character, or example of Muhammad. Whenever mentioned, because they know just how problematic it is, they just ignore it.

It's pretty sad, actually.
01-08-2020 11:59 PM
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RE: Datasheet on Islam
(01-08-2020 11:59 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Notice that just like the banned Oskuro, y2k has no mention or defense of the person, character, or example of Muhammad. Whenever mentioned, because they know just how problematic it is, they just ignore it.

It's pretty sad, actually.

There's an apologist, Jay Smith, who used to (and may still) go out and yell in speaker's corner in Hyde Park in London. He would always say "the book and the man, the book and the man" as he focused on the superiority of the Bible and Jesus to the Quran and Mohammed.
01-09-2020 02:32 AM
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